Religion v Atheism: The Good, The Bad, And the Ugly

[sweetjasmine]

Do you believe that science can bring human race to a better place, not only materially, but also emotionally and spiritually?

 

It drives me nuts when people try to stretch science and force it to fulfill needs it can't possibly fulfill (and I don't mean you specifically, I mean people who do try to treat science as a religion). Science is about understanding the world around us on an intellectual level. It's not the realm of science to provide emotional or spiritual fulfillment, even though some people may get those things from pursuing science and actually doing it.

[wuggle]

And what do atheist believe? pure science? the strong survive principle?

 

I think you might be confusing Eugenics with Darwinin theories. The Eugenics movement is usually seen as a 'bastardised' mis-interpretation of Darwin's work for political aims. Darwin never put forward the idea that the strong survive (as the Eugenicists claim), he did say that if a random mutation in a species offered that individual (and it's offspring) some sort of better ability to survive in it's particular environment, then that mutation was more likely to be passed on to it's offspring and become a fundamental aspect of that species in that environment.

 

or do you believe some nonmaterial things such as love and kindness should rein human lives?

 

Most definitley. I hope with all my heart that these, and not a belief in God, will determine the future of humanity.

 

Do you believe that science can bring human race to a better place, not only materially, but also emotionally and spiritually?

 

Again, most profoundly YES. I think that if you look back at the achievments of science and reasoned thinking especially over the last few thousand years , the evidence will bear this out. We live longer, happier lives mentally and physically. There is less violence, better health etc etc etc. I think if the question is what has science done for us, just look around you. It will be science that diagnoses and fixes your ruptured appendix, science that developed anti-viral drugs, Science that discovered penicillin, etc etc.

[Lovelybird]

True unbiased science would probably take us to a better place if everyone believed and honored it's principles. In fact, if not for science our civilization would still be living in the dark ages.

 

Religion on the other hand is equal to leading the sheep with a blind herder into the unknown.

 

Just my opinion you see....

So, what kind of principles that would bring human race to a better place? When I say "better", I mean not simply rich, but a more mature loving forgiving person. How can science do this?

 

Let's say USA is very advanced in science, but its adultery rate isn't necessary lower than other poor countries, probably higher.

 

It drives me nuts when people try to stretch science and force it to fulfill needs it can't possibly fulfill (and I don't mean you specifically, I mean people who do try to treat science as a religion). Science is about understanding the world around us on an intellectual level. It's not the realm of science to provide emotional or spiritual fulfillment, even though some people may get those things from pursuing science and actually doing it.

Ok, then what do you think fulfill human race in the area of emotion and spirituality? Do you think by human self people can become better and better emotionally and spiritually?

 

 

Most definitley. I hope with all my heart that these, and not a belief in God, will determine the future of humanity.

 

Again, most profoundly YES. I think that if you look back at the achievments of science and reasoned thinking especially over the last few thousand years , the evidence will bear this out. We live longer, happier lives mentally and physically. There is less violence, better health etc etc etc. I think if the question is what has science done for us, just look around you. It will be science that diagnoses and fixes your ruptured appendix, science that developed anti-viral drugs, Science that discovered penicillin, etc etc.

I don't deny science did and does a great job. Just curious what can bring human race to a better place--a morally high person: with all good virtures? Only by our good wishes and determination? or what?

 

And another question for atheist. let's say if without human error (use God's name did bad things, or bad examples), would you like (put evidence aside temporarily, just say your like or not) such an idea that a loving and justice God does exist? (Usually we love someone care about us and love us.) if not, do you fear HE will interfere your freedom?

Edited April 16, 2010 by Lovelybird

[wuggle]

I don't deny science did and does a great job. Just curious what can bring human race to a better place--a morally high person: with all good virtures? Only by our good wishes and determination? or what?

 

Not certain what you are saying here, but it 'looks' like you are implying that athiests are not moral people, if this is indeed what you are saying then I would have to disagree most wholeheartedly, in my experience Athiests are some of the MOST moral people I have met, I suspect this may be due to the fact that many athiests have worked through religion involving much thought reflection and reasoning, rather than just blindly accepting that something is because others say it is.

 

And another question for atheist. let's say if without human error (use God's name did bad things, or bad examples), would you like (put evidence aside temporarily, just say your like or not) such an idea that a loving and justice God does exist? (Usually we love someone care about us and love us.) if not, do you fear HE will interfere your freedom?

 

Sorry, I really am not trying to be difficult but I really do not know what you are saying here. If you could rephrase your thoughts, as a confirmed athiest (sic) I would be happy to answer. IF you are asking if an athiest fears the loss of freedom by believeing in god ? then I would answer no. As stated every athiest I know has reached that position through much reflection & intelligent thought, sadly I cannot say the same for everyone. An athiest can not fear god, because after much rational thought they have decided that he does not even exist. A very liberating conclusion for many of us.

[Toki]

So, what kind of principles that would bring human race to a better place? When I say "better", I mean not simply rich, but a more mature loving forgiving person. How can science do this?

 

Science doesn't do this, but neither does religion. Yes, the bible says "thou shalt forgive." amongst other things, but it's also been interpreted at times to cut off the heads of unbelievers as Jesus commanded sic. "Reconquista."

 

In order to be a good person it takes conscientious motivation, and action. To be giving of yourself, and looking beyond your own life. Some of the most giving, unselfish people I have met are non religious.

 

Let's say USA is very advanced in science, but its adultery rate isn't necessary lower than other poor countries, probably higher.

 

Again, this has nothing to do with science, but a mixture of socio-economic disparities, and a culture that believes in freedom. Most non-western societies don't have high rates of adultery, because there is a good chance you will be killed, or banished for it. Usually, by a religious regime.

 

 

Ok, then what do you think fulfill human race in the area of emotion and spirituality? Do you think by human self people can become better and better emotionally and spiritually?

 

The human mind is a complex thing, and in our understanding of the mind we're only at the tip of the iceberg. What fulfills me is knowing I can be a rock in a sea of change, since my thoughts on the spirit realm are dubious at best, I am because I am; meaning I am only human and nothing more. The term "better" is relative to your situation, not stealing is an improvement because I used to steal things, not because I believe I'll be punished for it, but because it makes me feel better not to steal.

 

I don't deny science did and does a great job. Just curious what can bring human race to a better place--a morally high person: with all good virtures? Only by our good wishes and determination? or what?

 

That's the question of the ages, and religion in general has done a pretty poor job of bringing people to a better place. It has unified us in ways we can only now begin to appreciate, but the caveat has been that people suffer from extreme prejudice, and societies at large have done terrible things in the name of god. What can bring us to a better place? certainly science can only help so much, I think when humans stop becoming humans... it will bring us to a better, but certainly much less free place, is that better than what we have now?

 

And another question for atheist. let's say if without human error (use God's name did bad things, or bad examples), would you like (put evidence aside temporarily, just say your like or not) such an idea that a loving and justice God does exist? (Usually we love someone care about us and love us.) if not, do you fear HE will interfere your freedom?

 

I don't get what your saying here, if you mean if we did believe a god existed, he would be just? It's a fanciful thought certainly, but where in the world do you see justice? All of justice has been served by human hands, and much of it is terrifying to behold outside of the Western World. If man is made in god's image, god pretty much sucks. If god does exist, I don't fear he will interfere with freedom, but then again I think Neil Gaiman put it best "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of the players, (ie everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time."

[Lovelybird]

If god does exist, I don't fear he will interfere with freedom, but then again I think Neil Gaiman put it best "God does not play dice with the universe; He plays an ineffable game of His own devising, which might be compared, from the perspective of the players, (ie everybody), to being involved in an obscure and complex version of poker in a pitch-dark room, with blank cards, for infinite stakes, with a Dealer who won't tell you the rules, and who smiles all the time

So you are thinking this is the way of the universe and your life? random, dark, without rules, without reasons? everything happened in life is without reason?

[Toki]

So you are thinking this is the way of the universe and your life? random, dark, without rules, without reasons? everything happened in life is without reason?

 

You could interpret it that way, but end result is that if there is a god he hasn't been very good at explaining the rules. I live by rules that I have made for myself, and by the letter of the law, but I feel no divine inspiration. In a way it's liberating for me to not have to live on my knees, quaking in fear of reprisal from a faceless adversary who is watching my every move. I give because it makes me feel good, not because I have to or risk eternal damnation. I think believing in god makes you live in the dark, faith is blind and you don't know who or what you're really dealing with, except the voices in the blank recesses of the mind that tell you something is there that isn't. Faith is a scary prospect, it makes you little more than a subserviant slave to words, and magic tricks. The reality is that there is no why, there are just is's and isn't's. In this way I can life however I please without having to look over my shoulder for every little thing I do.

[Lovelybird]

In a way it's liberating for me to not have to live on my knees, quaking in fear of reprisal from a faceless adversary who is watching my every move.

Why do you think God is an adversary? Where did you get the idea?

 

 

I think believing in god makes you live in the dark, faith is blind and you don't know who or what you're really dealing with, except the voices in the blank recesses of the mind that tell you something is there that isn't.

There are always many voices, but there is one that leads you to a brighter place, I think one needs to discern where he/she is going.

 

Faith is a scary prospect, it makes you little more than a subserviant slave to words, and magic tricks. The reality is that there is no why, there are just is's and isn't's. In this way I can life however I please without having to look over my shoulder for every little thing I do

If without receiving and giving love between you and God, those words become pure rules, and you surely will become slaves to those rules, which will lead to death, "faith" becomes burden, contrary to freedom. I am kind of understand what you mean, but purely obeying rules isn't about faith. If faith brings about good changes in a person's behaviours, it is not forced by fear, the person's behaviour changes because his heart is changed.

 

Do you know the song AMAZING GRACE? It was written by a slave-seller, he regreted his behaviours because his heart was changed by love of God.

[MichelleZB]

Atheists belong in religious discussions because, like everyone, they're trying to figure out how the universe works and what it all means. And that's what a religious discussion is.

[shadowofman]

And what do atheist believe? pure science? the strong survive principle? or do you believe some nonmaterial things such as love and kindness should rein human lives? Do you believe that science can bring human race to a better place, not only materially, but also emotionally and spiritually?

 

You misunderstand science. Science is a method in order to make correct observations. It is only the method. The atheist believes little, and knows reality by what is observed through a very strict method of observation where peers are double and triple checking the observations. The observations are checked hundreds of times and are proven unfalsifiable. Then we can agree, logically, that we are indeed observing reality. Religions cannot stand this scrutiny. Religions are memes that persist in the cultures in the absence of evidence. This is the definition of faith. In my mind, religions are not only unworthy of belief. Faith is not a virtue, but the opposite of a virtue. Questioning and demanding evidence is a virtue.

[Star Gazer]

Atheists belong in religious discussions because, like everyone, they're trying to figure out how the universe works and what it all means. And that's what a religious discussion is.

 

This is very true!

[sweetjasmine]

Ok, then what do you think fulfill human race in the area of emotion and spirituality? Do you think by human self people can become better and better emotionally and spiritually?

 

People as individuals have to seek out whatever makes them feel emotionally and spiritually fulfilled. It might be art, nature, bonding with others, whatever. Everyone finds fulfillment in different places.

 

If someone finds spiritual and emotional fulfillment through a religion, then good for them. If someone else finds spiritual and emotional fulfillment from hiking through the mountains with their best friend, then good for them, too.