When Good People Have Affairs: Inside the Hearts & Minds of People in Two Relationshi

[califnan]

It's our responsibility as decent women? Jeesh! If you're that decent, stop saying F. Rut roh. That was a judgment. Ouch. Maybe we shouldn't be so judgmental.

 

People don't plan affairs in advance. Stop being so high and mighty and moralistic.

 

 

 

Research all of his posts. He's quite the stalker. He can sound reasonable at times and it is a farce. He twists a lot of things. He stalks. That's what happens. People think they're extra "decent." (Or they're very angry like tp.) They stop thinking they have any beams in their own eyes. It's sad in and of itself and definitely twisting reality.

 

Stop flogging others and offer some sort of love and encouragement if you're so damn real.

 

 

 

have you ever?

 

 

 

Have you ever?

 

 

 

Have you ever?

 

 

 

Have you ever?

 

 

 

Did you when you did it? Don't say you didn't. We all do at times.

Have you learned from it all completely and become a 100% example of absolute sainthood to others? I think not, from your posts.

 

 

 

 

 

Good people make mistakes. You're very non-forgiving and forgiveness of oneself and others is a wonderful thing. It provides a peace beyond understanding.

 

You can cheat, feel remorse for it, ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. I know you don't like that -- but it can and does happen.

 

 

 

You are so full of yourself.

 

 

 

Oh yes -- sociopaths run amuck. No hope at all. There's always Hope.

 

 

 

Oh goodness. LS is a sociopath hangout. Oh well. At least you can relatively easily distinguish the sociopaths from yourself.

 

---------------------

 

SaMaantha .. This isn't you.. You must have had some vino .. or something tonight .. You are funny! You and Troggle .. you're All funny ..

[Samantha0905]

---------------------

 

SaMaantha .. This isn't you.. You must have had some vino .. or something tonight .. You are funny! You and Troggle .. you're All funny ..

 

ha,ha -- well, sometimes less is more!! Blah, blah, blah.

[FryFish]

You can cheat, feel remorse for it, ask for forgiveness and be forgiven. I know you don't like that -- but it can and does happen.

So you asked your husband for forgiveness? Good for you. That means you ARENT counted among the sociopaths.

[Holding-On]

-------------------

 

Yes. Marriage is under God.. The wife's body is the husband's. The husband's body is the wife's.. They belong to each other ..

 

When Marriage is vowed under the assumption of an imaginary all powerful daddy in the sky who, (rather remarkably) cares so specifically about the follies of mortal human beings, then the two parties might consider their bodies property of each other. The rest of us might not. Even religious married people who believe in an all powerful being don't necessarily hold this belief of bodily possession.

 

There are a rather wide variety of sky daddies out there after all and they all have slightly different texts attributed to them.

And yes, I've been in the vino tonight.

[califnan]

When Marriage is vowed under the assumption of an imaginary all powerful daddy in the sky who, (rather remarkably) cares so specifically about the follies of mortal human beings, then the two parties might consider their bodies property of each other. The rest of us might not. Even religious married people who believe in an all powerful being don't necessarily hold this belief of bodily possession.

 

There are a rather wide variety of sky daddies out there after all and they all have slightly different texts attributed to them.

And yes, I've been in the vino tonight.

 

-----------------------

 

Marriage is under God's Covenant. Was Created By God.

[on1wheel]

17 types of A's...all of them wrong!!! What a load of crap designed to ease the concience of a cheater. My W had an AA 2.5 yrs ago & I still suffer EVERYDAY.

An adult with morals would have said "I am very unhappy for ______ reason, I find _________ attractive & would like to have sex with them...can you live with that or should we divorce?"

Then NOBODY gets hurts so badly that they contemplate suicide. But it seems that a lot of people are cake eaters by nature...want it all. My W included it seems.

Any of you that are so unhappy that you are contemplating an A, let me assure you that ur spouse is as unhappy as U are. But R they a cake eater too? How would U feel if the roles were reversed?

Cheaters are selfish people, only concerned with their own gratification; of whatever type it is.

[RedDevil66]

It's

Research all of his posts. He's quite the stalker. He can sound reasonable at times and it is a farce. He twists a lot of things. He stalks. That's what happens. People think they're extra "decent." (Or they're very angry like tp.) They stop thinking they have any beams in their own eyes. It's sad in and of itself and definitely twisting reality.

 

Stop flogging others and offer some sort of love and encouragement if you're so damn real.

 

 

First off, I did and won't research anyone's posts since I have a life and don't spent my days on LS,

Second, his post made sense to me so I made a comment. Sorry if you feel you need to control my opinion

Third and finally, I "flog" others when they show ZERO remorse/are smug about being cheaters.

I've showed a fair amount of love and encouragment to many people on this site who genuine about their healing. I'm a lot more real than most that post in the cheaters forums.

[RedDevil66]

17 types of A's...all of them wrong!!! What a load of crap designed to ease the concience of a cheater. My W had an AA 2.5 yrs ago & I still suffer EVERYDAY.

An adult with morals would have said "I am very unhappy for ______ reason, I find _________ attractive & would like to have sex with them...can you live with that or should we divorce?"

Then NOBODY gets hurts so badly that they contemplate suicide. But it seems that a lot of people are cake eaters by nature...want it all. My W included it seems.

Any of you that are so unhappy that you are contemplating an A, let me assure you that ur spouse is as unhappy as U are. But R they a cake eater too? How would U feel if the roles were reversed?

Cheaters are selfish people, only concerned with their own gratification; of whatever type it is.

 

Everything you say is 100% accurate, but many disagree since they are in the throws of their deep denial over how they conduct their lives.

For many cheaters, they think what they are doing is ok and will justify to the point where you'll just give up even trying to understand.

It's like one of my profess. said "you cannot fight denial with reason, it's like bowling with marbles, you'll never win"

 

Med school proff are so deep ;-)

[Samantha0905]

First off, I did and won't research anyone's posts since I have a life and don't spent my days on LS,

Second, his post made sense to me so I made a comment. Sorry if you feel you need to control my opinion

Third and finally, I "flog" others when they show ZERO remorse/are smug about being cheaters.

I've showed a fair amount of love and encouragment to many people on this site who genuine about their healing. I'm a lot more real than most that post in the cheaters forums.

 

Oh -- congratulations for having a life!

 

I didn't try to control anything. I made my comments based on my thoughts and experiences.

 

It's difficult (almost impossible) to know if someone has remorse and how much remorse is present. That's all in them.

 

It's good you show some love and encouragment.

 

17 types of A's...all of them wrong!!! What a load of crap designed to ease the concience of a cheater. My W had an AA 2.5 yrs ago & I still suffer EVERYDAY.

An adult with morals would have said "I am very unhappy for ______ reason, I find _________ attractive & would like to have sex with them...can you live with that or should we divorce?"

Then NOBODY gets hurts so badly that they contemplate suicide. But it seems that a lot of people are cake eaters by nature...want it all. My W included it seems.

Any of you that are so unhappy that you are contemplating an A, let me assure you that ur spouse is as unhappy as U are. But R they a cake eater too? How would U feel if the roles were reversed?

Cheaters are selfish people, only concerned with their own gratification; of whatever type it is.

 

Have you read the book? Sorry about your experience. Suicide is never a good option.

[Samantha0905]

Um, hearing a curse word seriously hurts a person to their very core like being cheated on by a spouse would? LMFAOROTF!!!

 

That was tongue in cheek Donna.

 

As for the "planning affairs in advance" business, yes. It isn't a situation where two people meet and they inexoribly are drawn to the nearest hotel room by forces beyond their control. It evolves over time and requires effort in planning and sneaking and lying.

 

I simply meant two people may meet, develop a friendship and things continue from there. Things are never beyond the two people's control -- but when becoming more and more attracted and being not happy in general in the marriage -- some are more vulnerable to making a bad choice. I'm not condoning it at all. I said in my case I was wrong. It does happen, however, and I'm not going to condemn someone as being a bad person for making a bad choice. I know I'm leaving myself wide open for someone to come in here and type a novel involving circular reasoning as to why that makes the person a bad person -- but I disagree with the logic.

 

These threads always get so off base. I do think it's a good thing someone wrote a book addressing the needs and emotions of the WS. It would probably be a good thing if someone wrote a book addressing the needs of the WS from the perspective of telling and saving the marriage. Perhaps they have -- I don't know. I, personally, enjoy reading the perspectives of many people as long as they are mostly civil and not abusive.

 

I understand the topic matter is emotionally high charged and, depending on how recent the hurt occurred, some will express their emotions with more hostility than others.

[Samantha0905]

It's not the initial mistake that makes someone a bad person. A situation can happen when there are troubles in a M, but once that line is crossed a GOOD PERSON is going to FEEL REMORSE and STOP the behavior.

 

It's the continuation of an A for a lengthy period of time when they KNOW it is hurtful to another. Willfully hurting another person without remorse, which the book apparently attempts to help divest you of, is the action of someone who doesn't care how they hurt another person. When an A is carried on ad nauseum for YEARS, obviously the MP in the equation doesn't care about anyone but themselves. Selfishness at it's finest.

 

Well, Donna, once someone is involved in the affair it's even more difficult to end things. I imagine most people involved in affairs do feel a lot of remorse -- an affair is very emotionally draining and stressful -- and, as you've pointed out -- hurtful to others. The problem is once the affair starts, there are two people the WS could be hurting. Well, actually -- lots of people. I know as my affair went on, my feelings for my AP grew deeper and deeper. I knew I also loved my husband and my children. I even thought it out as far as how extended family members would be hurt.

 

Yes, it would have been best if the affair had never started. Obviously. I chose badly. I know there are some who say it's not true remorse unless you stop the action. Well, eventually the action did stop -- but obviously not on the true remorse police's timetable. I think one can feel "deep and painful regret for wrongdoing" (definition of remorse) while the affair is ongoing.

 

And -- of course it's selfish. Affairs are selfish behavior. I simply don't think it's all as black and white as you are laying it out in type and I don't think it makes the person a BAD PERSON. The very same person involved in an affair may have some wonderfully kind attributes in other areas in life. As much as some people don't like to hear it, they may actually love their spouse a lot also.

[Samantha0905]

I get SUCH a kick when someone who is or has been involved in cheating makes a derogatory referral such as "the true remorse police," as if someone who GETS that notion has some kind of issue.

 

 

I get SUCH a kick when a true remorse police person HAS that notion!

[Samantha0905]

I'm sorry to go backwards on this thread, but feel like I need to comment on this. When my xMM told me that he didn't feel any guilt about being with me, it was a huge sign that he was never going to leave his W. If he didn't feel guilty, he had no reason to stop his behavior. There were no consequences from me, her (since she didn't know), or even himself. It was helpful to me in seeing clearly though. Seeing that I finally needed to stop waiting and leave.

 

I don't know if his decision to keep us both on the hook was what Mira was talking about in seeing clearly by dropping the guilt.

 

 

My point in the author's reference to titling the book "When Good People have Affairs", is I think it was a marketing ploy. Being called "good" already puts the WS at ease, and more open to the book and forking out their hard-earned money for it. If you were a WS, and one book is called "When You Have an Affair" or "When GOOD People Have an Affair", which one are you going to buy?

Samantha, you were the one who chose the book- didn't it appeal to you that the author used the word "good"?

 

Again, I've not read the book, so I may be completely off-base. Just going on what I've gleaned from reading these posts.

 

Well, I'm sure there's marketing involved in selling books -- so all of that makes sense to me. I find the other title appealing also though -- "When You Have an Affair." I'm not sure I would be interesting in "When BAD People Have an Affair."

 

I have not bought the book. I was just asking if others have read it and wanted opinions. What appealed to me when I read the reviews was she appears to speak to the WS as a person who has valid feelings. I feel it's unfair when people who have affairs are characterized as bad people. It's a broad statement about a person as a whole and I don't think people are all good or all bad.

 

I also think on this forum there have been many cases where regardless of what the WS feels or has felt in his/her marriage, once an affair has occurred a lot of people think what the WS feels is invalidated. Although an affair is a bad choice, I still think the feelings of unhappiness and the root of these feelings are very valid and worth discussion.

 

For that matter, I even think a person currently involved in an affair is a person with valid feelings and I doubt the majority of them are bad people.

[jennie-jennie]

Disclaimer: It is a year since I read the book, so I might be remembering wrong. Forgive me, Mira, if that is the case.

 

The purpose of the book is to help the WS make a choice between the two women/men in question and thus be able to end the affair. It is in no way intended to relieve the guilt of the WS in order for him/her to be able to continue the affair. The book contains step-by-step suggestions of how-to-do-it-yourself, which Mira claims is the same successful strategy she uses in her therapy sessions with WS.

 

The reason for the suggestion of non-disclosure once the affair is over is because Mira believes more harm than good will come from disclosure. Once you have decided to end the affair and change your behavior to never again engage in an affair, Mira sees no reason for hurting the BS by disclosure.

[Samantha0905]

Disclaimer: It is a year since I read the book, so I might be remembering wrong. Forgive me, Mira, if that is the case.

 

The purpose of the book is to help the WS make a choice between the two women/men in question and thus be able to end the affair. It is in no way intended to relieve the guilt of the WS in order for him/her to be able to continue the affair. The book contains step-by-step suggestions of how-to-do-it-yourself, which Mira claims is the same successful strategy she uses in her therapy sessions with WS.

 

The reason for the suggestion of non-disclosure once the affair is over is because Mira believes more harm than good will come from disclosure. Once you have decided to end the affair and change your behavior to never again engage in an affair, Mira sees no reason for hurting the BS by disclosure.

 

Thanks jennie. I think the premise of the book sounds fine and I think a WS does need some direction as to what steps to take as it is such a confusing time.

 

I agree with the suggestion of non-disclosure after the fact also -- but I think at this point people who do agree with that and people who think it's a travesty have discussed it ad nauseam.

[Samantha0905]

If anyone is interested:

 

Andy McSmith, has written an article in The Independent UK which reviews the book. This is his summary of the 17 types of affairs:

 

(I put an asterisk beside types which particularly spoke to me and what was going on in my head somewhat -- not exactly -- at the time of my affair.)

 

 

Break out into selfhood*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "For a long time there are forces in your life that have opposed your being yourself, expressing yourself.

 

The affair is the best way you knew how to stand up for who you are." Virginia Woolf's husband, Leonard Woolf, is reckoned to have been more of a guardian than a lover. She broke out into a torrid affair with Vita Sackville-West, on whom she based the novel Orlando.

 

Accidental*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You weren't looking for it ... but you were in the wrong place at the wrong time."

 

Vivienne Haigh-Wood married the poet T S Eliot weeks after they met. He later confessed: "To her, the marriage brought no happiness. To me, it brought the state of mind out of which came The Waste Land." But she does not seem to have intended to betray him quite so soon. It was just that Bertrand Russell happened to drop by.

 

Sexual panic

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You feel your sexual powers are waning and in a kind of panic, you have an affair to prove you're still as sexually able as you were." The career of John Prescott was, outwardly, a story of success, the former ship's waiter who rose to be Deputy Prime Minister, but he never got over his sense of inferiority. In his sixties, he seduced Tracey Temple, a civil servant 26 years his junior.

 

Let's kill this relationship (and see if it comes back to life)

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "The idea is that once an affair is discovered it will deliver a blow that will either kill your relationship or make it stronger."

 

No sooner had Napoleon Bonaparte married Josephine than he was off to war, when rumours surfaced that she was having an affair. When he returned to France, she never cheated on him again.

 

Mid-marriage crisis*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Without time and attention marriages get stale or feel full of problems, so ... you have an affair."

 

David and Victoria Beckham have done well to stay together. Plenty of women would not mind a turn with the footballer, and one or two claim to have had that experience. "No one said marriage was going to be easy," Victoria admitted.

 

Trading up

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You've moved ahead in life but your spouse has stayed behind. Having an affair is your way of being with someone you think better matches your circumstances."

 

Horatio Nelson was an unknown young seaman when he met and married the widow, Frances Nisbet, who already had a son. Eleven years later, in 1798, he was a national hero, after winning the Battle of the Nile, and took up with Lady Emma Hamilton. Their affair was a national scandal, and the birth of their child had to be kept secret.

 

Heating up your marriage

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Unconsciously, you're hoping that the affair itself or your spouse finding out about it will make things more passionate..." In 1907, President Woodrow Wilson's wife, Ellen, was suffering depression when Wilson met Mary Hulbert. Whether they had an affair is disputed, but the friendship caused Ellen pain. He introduced her to Ellen; the women shopped together, and the marriage revived.

 

I just needed to indulge myself

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "It may not be noble, but the fact is that you've been working so hard that an affair is the best way you know how to give yourself some pleasure."

 

Poor Monica Lewinsky is fated to be remembered for the rest of her life for the misjudgement she made at 21, as an intern in the White House, by allowing herself to be the latest in the line of women to reward Bill Clinton for all his hard work. "He talked about it as though I had laid it all out there for the taking. I was the buffet and he just couldn't resist the dessert," she said in her book on the affair, ghosted by Andrew Morton.

 

Ejector seat

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You want out of your marriage but you're afraid to just quit, so you're hoping that an affair will end things for you - either your spouse will kick you out or your lover will give you the courage to quit."

 

"There were three of us in this marriage," Diana , Princess of Wales, complained. Indeed there were. Prince Charles seems to have her married out of a sense of duty rather than love. A telephone conversation with Camilla Parker Bowles, as she then was, was taped and broadcast, no one knows who by. "The trouble is I need you several times a week ... Oh. God, I'll just live inside your trousers or something. It would be much easier!" he proclaimed.

 

See if*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You're in a see-if affair if your motive is to see if what you've been missing in your marriage can be gotten with someone else and, if so, does it make as much of a difference as you'd thought."

 

When Ryan Phillippe appeared opposite Abbie Cornish in Stop-Loss, this year's blockbuster about the Iraq war, their professional association blossomed into romance, causing the gossip writers to observe that she looked exactly like a younger version of Reese Witherspoon, Phillippe's estranged wife. Their marriage has ended. He is certainly not the only man to find solace in a woman who looks like his first love.

 

Distraction

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Things are hard, frustrating, confusing in your life, and an affair is a way to distract yourself from all these difficulties by creating a kind of oasis of romance."

 

David Lloyd George was a great one for creating oases of romance after he left his simpler life behind in Walesto enter the world of high politics. His greatest love was Frances Stevenson, "my darling pussy", who became his second wife.

 

Surrogate therapy

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You need help of some sort - maybe boosting your self-esteem - and an affair is your way of getting it."

 

The Austrian writer Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch had an unexciting marriage which did not suit his unusual emotional needs, so he signed a contract with his mistress Fanny Pistor Bogdanoff, making him her slave for six months, on conditions that she wore fur as often as possible particularly when she was of a mind to wield the whip. Hence the term "masochist".

 

Do I still have it?

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You are getting older, your marriage is stale, and you wonder if you still can attract someone, get them to fall in love with you, and carry on a passionate affair."

 

Pablo Picasso married Olga Khokhlova in 1918, and was legally still married to her when she died in 1955, but did not let that cramp his style. He also had two children by Françoise Gilot, who left him in 1953, when he was 71. His drawings show that he now feared he had become a hideous old man, yet he managed an affair with 24-year-old Geneviève Laporte, who, in old age, made a fortune from the pictures he drew of her.

 

Having experiences I missed out on********* lol

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You weren't in many relationships before you got married and now you feel there are experiences that are important to you that you missed out on ..."

 

In 1984, the newly elected Tory MP Edwina Currie, began an affair with John Major, then a party whip. It lasted for four years. They were both married. "Politicians admire the element of the devious in each other," Currie explained.

 

Revenge

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You're furious at your spouse for some way he or she hurt you, and you're having an affair as a way to get back, even if your spouse never learns about the affair."

 

Being abandoned by her husband, King Edward II, during a campaign against Robert the Bruce was bad enough - Queen Isabella, daughter of the King of France, narrowly missed being a prisoner of the Scots - but what she really could not stand was his homosexual lovers. So she took up with Roger Mortimer, raised an army, and overthrew the king.

 

Mid-life crisis

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "These are rare because true mid-life crises are rare. What people think of as this can be explained by one of the others, such as the surrogate therapy or the mid-marriage-crisis affair."

 

John Profumo was 25 when he was elected to Parliament, and was the youngest of the Conservative MPs who brought down Neville Chamberlain. But by 46, he was still only a middle ranking minister when he and his wife met Christine Keeler, then 20. After a few torrid weeks, he ended their affair. Unfortunately, for him, she could not keep a secret.

 

Unmet needs*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Whatever it is you need, you're not getting it from your partner. An affair is your way of getting those needs met."

 

Catherine the Great was an innocent German princess when she was sent to Russia to marry Grand Duke Peter, heir to the throne. He was a disaster as a husband, and as a tsar. She loved sex and needed to produce an heir. Having had Peter murdered, she took uncounted lovers, the most famous of whom was Grigori Potemkin, reputedly endowed with more than just a first-class brain.

[crazycatlady]

If I recall correctly, Mira states that guilt and feeling like you are a bad person is in the way of you making a decision and changing your life to the better. First when you let go of the guilt, you can see clearly.

 

Ok finally slogged through this all.

 

Jennie - I find this interesting. I'm not going to read the book - I'm not a WS - but I do find your statement to be true. My H was so wrapped up in his guilt and feeling like a bad person that it was eating him up. It prevented him from dealing with the sitution, it prevented him from stopping the situation (might as well go on because you are a bad person), it prevented him from telling me (shame for being such a bad person etc), it prevented him from fully enjoying his time with her (same as before). So in that circumstances, I can definately see the book as being helpful.

 

I think even when we made bad choices, unless we can stop the cycle, the bad choices become easier to make, even if they make us feel worse. That's true for many things, not just affairs. As long as we feel bad, might as well keep on with the behavior.

 

CCL

[wheelwright]

If anyone is interested:

 

Andy McSmith, has written an article in The Independent UK which reviews the book. This is his summary of the 17 types of affairs:

 

(I put an asterisk beside types which particularly spoke to me and what was going on in my head somewhat -- not exactly -- at the time of my affair.)

 

 

Break out into selfhood*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "For a long time there are forces in your life that have opposed your being yourself, expressing yourself.

 

The affair is the best way you knew how to stand up for who you are." Virginia Woolf's husband, Leonard Woolf, is reckoned to have been more of a guardian than a lover. She broke out into a torrid affair with Vita Sackville-West, on whom she based the novel Orlando.

 

Accidental*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You weren't looking for it ... but you were in the wrong place at the wrong time."

 

Vivienne Haigh-Wood married the poet T S Eliot weeks after they met. He later confessed: "To her, the marriage brought no happiness. To me, it brought the state of mind out of which came The Waste Land." But she does not seem to have intended to betray him quite so soon. It was just that Bertrand Russell happened to drop by.

 

Sexual panic

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You feel your sexual powers are waning and in a kind of panic, you have an affair to prove you're still as sexually able as you were." The career of John Prescott was, outwardly, a story of success, the former ship's waiter who rose to be Deputy Prime Minister, but he never got over his sense of inferiority. In his sixties, he seduced Tracey Temple, a civil servant 26 years his junior.

 

Let's kill this relationship (and see if it comes back to life)

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "The idea is that once an affair is discovered it will deliver a blow that will either kill your relationship or make it stronger."

 

No sooner had Napoleon Bonaparte married Josephine than he was off to war, when rumours surfaced that she was having an affair. When he returned to France, she never cheated on him again.

 

Mid-marriage crisis*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Without time and attention marriages get stale or feel full of problems, so ... you have an affair."

 

David and Victoria Beckham have done well to stay together. Plenty of women would not mind a turn with the footballer, and one or two claim to have had that experience. "No one said marriage was going to be easy," Victoria admitted.

 

Trading up

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You've moved ahead in life but your spouse has stayed behind. Having an affair is your way of being with someone you think better matches your circumstances."

 

Horatio Nelson was an unknown young seaman when he met and married the widow, Frances Nisbet, who already had a son. Eleven years later, in 1798, he was a national hero, after winning the Battle of the Nile, and took up with Lady Emma Hamilton. Their affair was a national scandal, and the birth of their child had to be kept secret.

 

Heating up your marriage

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Unconsciously, you're hoping that the affair itself or your spouse finding out about it will make things more passionate..." In 1907, President Woodrow Wilson's wife, Ellen, was suffering depression when Wilson met Mary Hulbert. Whether they had an affair is disputed, but the friendship caused Ellen pain. He introduced her to Ellen; the women shopped together, and the marriage revived.

 

I just needed to indulge myself

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "It may not be noble, but the fact is that you've been working so hard that an affair is the best way you know how to give yourself some pleasure."

 

Poor Monica Lewinsky is fated to be remembered for the rest of her life for the misjudgement she made at 21, as an intern in the White House, by allowing herself to be the latest in the line of women to reward Bill Clinton for all his hard work. "He talked about it as though I had laid it all out there for the taking. I was the buffet and he just couldn't resist the dessert," she said in her book on the affair, ghosted by Andrew Morton.

 

Ejector seat

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You want out of your marriage but you're afraid to just quit, so you're hoping that an affair will end things for you - either your spouse will kick you out or your lover will give you the courage to quit."

 

"There were three of us in this marriage," Diana , Princess of Wales, complained. Indeed there were. Prince Charles seems to have her married out of a sense of duty rather than love. A telephone conversation with Camilla Parker Bowles, as she then was, was taped and broadcast, no one knows who by. "The trouble is I need you several times a week ... Oh. God, I'll just live inside your trousers or something. It would be much easier!" he proclaimed.

 

See if*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You're in a see-if affair if your motive is to see if what you've been missing in your marriage can be gotten with someone else and, if so, does it make as much of a difference as you'd thought."

 

When Ryan Phillippe appeared opposite Abbie Cornish in Stop-Loss, this year's blockbuster about the Iraq war, their professional association blossomed into romance, causing the gossip writers to observe that she looked exactly like a younger version of Reese Witherspoon, Phillippe's estranged wife. Their marriage has ended. He is certainly not the only man to find solace in a woman who looks like his first love.

 

Distraction

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Things are hard, frustrating, confusing in your life, and an affair is a way to distract yourself from all these difficulties by creating a kind of oasis of romance."

 

David Lloyd George was a great one for creating oases of romance after he left his simpler life behind in Walesto enter the world of high politics. His greatest love was Frances Stevenson, "my darling pussy", who became his second wife.

 

Surrogate therapy

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You need help of some sort - maybe boosting your self-esteem - and an affair is your way of getting it."

 

The Austrian writer Leopold Ritter von Sacher-Masoch had an unexciting marriage which did not suit his unusual emotional needs, so he signed a contract with his mistress Fanny Pistor Bogdanoff, making him her slave for six months, on conditions that she wore fur as often as possible particularly when she was of a mind to wield the whip. Hence the term "masochist".

 

Do I still have it?

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You are getting older, your marriage is stale, and you wonder if you still can attract someone, get them to fall in love with you, and carry on a passionate affair."

 

Pablo Picasso married Olga Khokhlova in 1918, and was legally still married to her when she died in 1955, but did not let that cramp his style. He also had two children by Françoise Gilot, who left him in 1953, when he was 71. His drawings show that he now feared he had become a hideous old man, yet he managed an affair with 24-year-old Geneviève Laporte, who, in old age, made a fortune from the pictures he drew of her.

 

Having experiences I missed out on********* lol

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You weren't in many relationships before you got married and now you feel there are experiences that are important to you that you missed out on ..."

 

In 1984, the newly elected Tory MP Edwina Currie, began an affair with John Major, then a party whip. It lasted for four years. They were both married. "Politicians admire the element of the devious in each other," Currie explained.

 

Revenge

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "You're furious at your spouse for some way he or she hurt you, and you're having an affair as a way to get back, even if your spouse never learns about the affair."

 

Being abandoned by her husband, King Edward II, during a campaign against Robert the Bruce was bad enough - Queen Isabella, daughter of the King of France, narrowly missed being a prisoner of the Scots - but what she really could not stand was his homosexual lovers. So she took up with Roger Mortimer, raised an army, and overthrew the king.

 

Mid-life crisis

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "These are rare because true mid-life crises are rare. What people think of as this can be explained by one of the others, such as the surrogate therapy or the mid-marriage-crisis affair."

 

John Profumo was 25 when he was elected to Parliament, and was the youngest of the Conservative MPs who brought down Neville Chamberlain. But by 46, he was still only a middle ranking minister when he and his wife met Christine Keeler, then 20. After a few torrid weeks, he ended their affair. Unfortunately, for him, she could not keep a secret.

 

Unmet needs*

 

Kirshenbaum writes: "Whatever it is you need, you're not getting it from your partner. An affair is your way of getting those needs met."

 

Catherine the Great was an innocent German princess when she was sent to Russia to marry Grand Duke Peter, heir to the throne. He was a disaster as a husband, and as a tsar. She loved sex and needed to produce an heir. Having had Peter murdered, she took uncounted lovers, the most famous of whom was Grigori Potemkin, reputedly endowed with more than just a first-class brain.

 

Once again, I find I had all the reasons. But none of them would have been enough without falling in love.

[califnan]

In vino veritas.

 

-------------------------

 

In vino veritas ... Now how did I not guess that it means: In wine there is truth .. ha

 

And here I was all prepared for one of your long analyzing synopsis' of your view on Kirschenbaum's every which reason for an affair .. ha ha

 

(By the way Samantha, I did find it interesting - I don't think the writer left anything out) ..

[JustJoe]

I purposely went and picked up Ms. Kirshenbaum's book, plus I read several articles by her and interviews with her. I find her without honor, and with little concern for personal integrity. It was a "feel good", book for cheaters. Nothing more. JMHO

[JAGeezer]

I'm sorry, but to me, the title itself is an oxymoron, thus making the book unworthy of serious consideration.....unless you're cheating with or on someone and want to feel good about yourself for doing so.

 

JAG

[Just a stone's throw]

I wonder if the book author has tuned into this thread. Would be interesting to know her thoughts on what has been discussed here.

[RedDevil66]

Some of the folks around here need to start drinking a lot more wine.

 

 

 

 

Not really necessary. This thread isn't really about trying to engage in an analysis of the book itself. The purpose of the thread is someone's approval-seeking for unfaithful behavior based solely upon the deliberately ambiguous title of this random book, "When Good People Have Affairs," thus implying that anyone who reads the book must of course be one of these "Good People." (I.e. the author is a slick marketeer.)

 

The title itself is not even a sentence, it's an incomplete phrase. "When Good People Have Affairs...They Behave Like Bad People" would have made a more coherent title. Or: "When Good People Have Affairs...They Lose the Right to Consider Themselves to Be 'Good Spouses'".

 

When "bad people" cheat, does this author believe they become "good people" because they cheated? Frankly whatever this author means by "good people," there are probably an awful lot more "bad people" who cheat than there are "good people." One of the things that stop people from cheating in the first place are the so-called "good" qualities: integrity, honesty, loyalty, fidelity, etc etc etc.

 

If I cheat, if I lie, if I'm unfaithful to my spouse, over a prolonged period, sneaking around behind her back having sex with another woman; exposing her to STDs, possibly; spending the family's money on the AP; etc etc etc (you know all those "good" things that arise out of an affair) how on earth could I possibly consider myself a "good" person?

 

I wouldn't be a "good" person if I did those things--I'd be an absolute scumbag. Because other than things like serious criminal behavior--robbery, arson, assault, murder, felonious behavior of other kinds--cheating on one's spouse is obviously about the worst thing the average Joe Schmoe can do. Being a racist is also pretty bad. Physically abusing one's spouse, of course. But in terms of interpersonal relations, cheating's probably about the worst.

 

But that's why I'm not a cheater in the first place. I know the difference between right and wrong. I know the difference between good and bad. I don't need to pretend that bad conduct makes a good person. I'll just try to avoid doing bad things rather than do bad things and ask you to call me "good," or find some pop psychology book somewhere that implies there is anything good about what I have done.

 

The author of the book either doesn't know the difference between good and bad, or right and wrong, or else she does know it, but she's specifically catering to an audience of people who are in denial and who don't want to held accountable for their conduct.

 

Cheating on my spouse, esp. over a prolonged period of time; and lying to my spouse about it; would be bad conduct, and in fact, would make me a bad person. There's no doubt about it.

 

Now perhaps if between my trysts with my affair partner, I was developing a cure for cancer or something, my "good" stuff might possibly outweigh the "badness" of my cheating.

 

Tell me califnan, how many of the waywards on LS or anywhere else do you think are counterbalancing their bad, cheating behavior by performing great deeds for humanity, their families, or anyone else, so that they could on balance fairly be considered "good" people? Do very many people who act badly and selfishly in their personal lives act in the opposite way in their public lives? I don't think so. I think people who cheat on their spouses are MORE not LESS likely to behave badly with other people as well. They are more likely to be "not good" than people who don't cheat. It's rather obvious isn't it?

 

If the person who cheats on their spouse is "good," what does that make the betrayed spouse? "Better than good"? I wonder if the author addresses that issue in her book.

 

Nope. Cheating isn't good. It's bad. People who cheat aren't doing something that a good person would do. It's bad behavior. Good people do good things; they don't do bad things.

 

This is simply knowing the difference between right and wrong, and good and bad. This author does NOT help waywards who are attempting to recover from infidelity by blurring the difference between good and bad and right and wrong. The reason that a lot of these people get in these situations in the first place is a decided inability to distinguish good from bad and right from wrong. Cheaters need clear, firm boundaries and guidance about these things. They need to learn that there's a difference between good and bad, and right from wrong.

 

If a cheater wants to believe that what they did was "good" or that they're a "good person" despite what they did, that's fine. They can believe whatever they want. On the other hand they should have no expectation anyone else will agree with them, and they shouldn't get upset because people are judging them based on their actions, which were "bad," not upon a label they wish to apply to themselves ("good person").

 

 

 

If someone approaches a book like that with the right perspective, i.e., to actually try to fix the things they did wrong, then I'm sure it's both informative and helpful.

 

However using a book like that as just another rationalization for bad behavior makes it worse than useless. On the other hand some people use anything available to justify what they want to do. In this case it might be someone's book with an appealing title.

 

Another well said and accurate post

[Samantha0905]

-------------------------

 

In vino veritas ... Now how did I not guess that it means: In wine there is truth .. ha

 

And here I was all prepared for one of your long analyzing synopsis' of your view on Kirschenbaum's every which reason for an affair .. ha ha

 

(By the way Samantha, I did find it interesting - I don't think the writer left anything out) ..

 

Ha,ha cali -- I could have translated that if I read tp's posts. Latin fun! I do enjoy a nice glass of wine.

 

Thanks -- I found them interesting also. As I've said, I'm happy to see someone wrote a book considering the experience of a WS. I'm sure it creates hostilities in some people who think telling is the only way. I don't agree with that perspective at all. It may work out well for some, but I bet for the majority it actually does create a lot of unneeded pain and harm.

 

On Mira's website, there's another book advertised to counteract what she is telling people to do:

 

http://www.chestnuthillinstitute.com/books/truth/

 

 

I purposely went and picked up Ms. Kirshenbaum's book, plus I read several articles by her and interviews with her. I find her without honor, and with little concern for personal integrity. It was a "feel good", book for cheaters. Nothing more. JMHO

 

Send it to me Joe! I didn't think all of that about her when I've read her articles. I think she has a different opinion from those who think you should tell. (I don't know her. She may very well have honor and personal integrity.) Of course, I don't know if I would ever do what you did and out my AP either. I don't mean that as a judgment. We just think differently about some things. Did you read the entire book?

 

Thanks for your review. I do understand. Sometimes when I read things that are contrary to how I feel I think, "Oh good grief!" or something along those lines with perhaps a profanity or two peppered into the exclamatory statement.

 

I had never heard of the author until I saw her until I saw her on "The Today Show" recently. Apparently, she has written quite a few books. I didn't know she was such a well known and controversial author.

 

I'm sorry, but to me, the title itself is an oxymoron, thus making the book unworthy of serious consideration.....unless you're cheating with or on someone and want to feel good about yourself for doing so.

 

JAG

 

Well, thanks for your input JAG.

 

I wonder if the book author has tuned into this thread. Would be interesting to know her thoughts on what has been discussed here.

 

It would be. I would go to the bookstore and purchase it, but when someone has been a WS it's not exactly a title they want to bring home. Well, not this former WS anyway.

[Samantha0905]

My H was so wrapped up in his guilt and feeling like a bad person that it was eating him up. It prevented him from dealing with the sitution, it prevented him from stopping the situation (might as well go on because you are a bad person), it prevented him from telling me (shame for being such a bad person etc), it prevented him from fully enjoying his time with her (same as before). So in that circumstances, I can definately see the book as being helpful.

 

I think even when we made bad choices, unless we can stop the cycle, the bad choices become easier to make, even if they make us feel worse. That's true for many things, not just affairs. As long as we feel bad, might as well keep on with the behavior.

 

CCL

 

Thanks for that post. I can relate to a lot of it and I do agree with what you said about bad choices.