When Good People Have Affairs: Inside the Hearts & Minds of People in Two Relationshi

[silverfish]

A "Good" person. A person who would cheat on their Spouse, could also be capable of other forms of dishonesty. This could include lying, financial cheating, and fraud. I saw it happen.

 

Someone can also be faithful for 16 years but behave abusively, take drugs, and drink excessively I've seen that happen as well....there are many ways to behave 'badly' and cheating is one of them.

 

Does cheating on your W or H predispose someone to behave badly in other areas of their life?

[califnan]

Someone can also be faithful for 16 years but behave abusively, take drugs, and drink excessively I've seen that happen as well....there are many ways to behave 'badly' and cheating is one of them.

 

Does cheating on your W or H predispose someone to behave badly in other areas of their life?

 

--------------------

 

In my situation, it was already in him - but could have come out more upon cheating on spouse..

[silverfish]

--------------------

 

In my situation, it was already in him - but could have come out more upon cheating on spouse..

 

I think I've seen that 'may as well be hung for a sheep as for a lamb' attitude before....do you (or anyone else think) that sometimes, when someone cheats, that the ostracisation (sp?) by their family and friends and the upheaval caused by the emotional fallout may lead them onto behaving badly in other areas?

 

It's almost as though everyone else sees them as the 'bad' guy (or gal), so they may as well play the part. After all, when you've lost the approval of your family and friends, other people's disapproval may seem irrelevant.

 

Maybe that's what the book is trying to get across....that if you cheat your life isn't 'over'....

[Spark1111]

Someone can also be faithful for 16 years but behave abusively, take drugs, and drink excessively I've seen that happen as well....there are many ways to behave 'badly' and cheating is one of them.

 

Does cheating on your W or H predispose someone to behave badly in other areas of their life?

 

I think yes and here is why: The cheater obviously has poor communication skills, conflict avoidance issues and a propensity for self-destructive risk-taking. All of this, sometimes in addition to either a feeling of self-entitlement or low self-esteen or both, and poor impulse control can certainly spill over into other areas of your life.

 

These are characteristics and personality traits that enable one to cheat in secrecy on their SO.

 

I'd be hard pressed to believe it DOES NOT effect other areas of their life.

[Owl]

I don't get the whole tangent into trying to define what's "good" or "bad" here...no value in the argument.

 

We're ALL both good and bad...depending on what aspect of our lives/behaviors/actions/mindsets you happen to choose to look at.

 

Trying to decide if a person is "good" or "bad" is impossible...everyone has good actions and bad actions.

 

It's relative.

 

Why not drop that subject and just focus on the original intent here and discuss the merits of the book in question?

[wheelwright]

I don't get the whole tangent into trying to define what's "good" or "bad" here...no value in the argument.

 

We're ALL both good and bad...depending on what aspect of our lives/behaviors/actions/mindsets you happen to choose to look at.

 

Trying to decide if a person is "good" or "bad" is impossible...everyone has good actions and bad actions.

 

It's relative.

 

QUOTE]

 

I think this discussion of good vs bad people is interesting, and one my BS and myself have been exploring.

 

I think all people we know are a mixture of good and bad in various proportions. The ones we associate with have the good and bad in ways that suits us. Funny people are sometimes cruel in their humour, but we like them for helping us make light of our lives etc. This is about the essential qualities of other people that makes us like or not like or even loathe them.

 

I think this is what a lot of the people on this thread mean when they are saying APs are not all bad, and can be considered good people, even if they made regrettable choices for a spell.

 

And then there is also the factor of whether people are treating us well or hurting us. Sometimes we begin to see people we like as bad simply because they did something to hurt us. Not because the balance of good and bad in that person has really changed from what we liked, just that it's now painful to be around them; they are 'bad' for us.

 

I think this is what a lot of people on this thread are saying when they say APs are not good people - they hurt someone in the way you were hurt.

 

And yes hurting someone is not good, but this hurtful act does not make up the sum total of a person's good/bad make up.

 

I personally do not think translating a spell of hurtful behaviour from an otherwise sound person into 'that person is bad' is a helpful way of getting over hurt - but I may be wrong here.

[crazycatlady]

I don't get the whole tangent into trying to define what's "good" or "bad" here...no value in the argument.

 

We're ALL both good and bad...depending on what aspect of our lives/behaviors/actions/mindsets you happen to choose to look at.

 

Trying to decide if a person is "good" or "bad" is impossible...everyone has good actions and bad actions.

 

It's relative.

 

Why not drop that subject and just focus on the original intent here and discuss the merits of the book in question?

 

It has a lot of value in this arguement. People are saying the book has a false assumption because it asserts that good people can have affairs which the majority of the people here disagree. They say good people don't have affairs....period. Thus whether good people can have affairs IS important to this discussion about the book.

 

CCL

[califnan]

It has a lot of value in this arguement. People are saying the book has a false assumption because it asserts that good people can have affairs which the majority of the people here disagree. They say good people don't have affairs....period. Thus whether good people can have affairs IS important to this discussion about the book.

 

CCL

 

-----------------------

Yes, I think "Loyalty" is major.

 

There is not much good to be said for an unrepentant spouse who sins against their marriage: wife, family.. even though they may be a terribly nice person ..

[crazycatlady]

-----------------------

Yes, I think "Loyalty" is major.

 

There is not much good to be said for an unrepentant spouse who sins against their marriage: wife, family.. even though they may be a terribly nice person ..

 

For a good person, loyalty becomes divided. I know that happened with my H. And while his divided loyalty hurt me - its part of why he did not confess sooner - I understand he felt he also owed her some loyalty too and that is part of what makes him a good man and part of what made him repeatedly beat himself up over his affair.

 

IMO it highlights even better how a good person can be so conflicted by their affair and the actions afterwards even harder to deal with because of divided loyalty, divided heart. It doesn't make them evil or bad. Which is why hearing and learning that good people can screw up really monumentally and how the screw up can last longer then a ONS even if they are a good person can help a good person figure themselves out and bring back together their conflicted sides.

 

CCL

[RedDevil66]

Someone can also be faithful for 16 years but behave abusively, take drugs, and drink excessively I've seen that happen as well....there are many ways to behave 'badly' and cheating is one of them.

 

Does cheating on your W or H predispose someone to behave badly in other areas of their life?

 

There is NO excuse for abuse and cheating (though cheating in my eyes, is abuse), addictions to drugs and alcohol are diseases and does not make a person bad. That's like saying a diabetic is bad.

 

Cheating is a choice, addictions are not.

[Samantha0905]

I've been tossing around in my mind if I wanted to post or not what my thoughts are about this thread.

 

While I have not read the book, and I won't be reading the book, I fully believe and have always believed that good people can make bad decisions and good people can have affairs, not just ONS but full blown affairs.

 

My husband is a good person. Aside from the affair - which can be put aside at this moment because that's the whole point of this - he's a great husband. He works so hard at supporting us, he has sacrificed a lot to provide for me and the kids, until recently he's been the sole provider for the family at his choice because he feels strongly about my being home for all of us given his career and everything. He has always supported me emotionally and mentally in all I have wanted to do. He pushes me to be a better person, he challanges me mentally and never puts my intelligence down. He encourages me to get out when I'm stressed, find a hobby that I enjoy, be myself beyond mother and wife. He encourages me to step out of my comfort zone of being a home body.

 

He is an amazing father. He's better then I am with the kids. He is more consistant, fairer, more intuned with them. He is amazing with them. I wish I could be as good.

 

He is a loyal friend which actually is what added to the problem of his affair.

 

He made a very bad choice. And continued to make bad choices as related to that situation. However during that time, he continued to try as best he could to be the good man he has always been. But he no longer felt like he was a good man. And living up to his own ideals of loyality became harder and so he beat himself up. Which didn't help the situation. It made the situation worse. So a book that might could help him deal with the fact that good people can make bad decisions might have been useful for us.

 

His self loathing made the situation worse. Without a doubt. It made the hiding last longer, it caused the situation to last longer without confession.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for him and what he went through. Yes I was really hurt by this. And it felt like someone was stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife, repeatedly.

 

Pausing here to say I love your posts and I hate the sharp knife I put into my spouse and my XAP. I feel like by saying that I am causing more pain. My spouse thinks why the Hell do you care about the XAP's pain and my XP thinks why the Hell don't you care more about my pain the most given you were unhappy? And then everyone thinks arrogant ******* for having any of those thoughts. Like why do I think I'm even capable of causing other people's pain and all of that. I hate I hurt anyone and I don't feel good or arrogant about any of it. I feel like I ended up being less than I'm supposed to be for others.

 

But that pain was short term. I knew there was never anything wrong with me. I wasn't missing anything. I could have handled things better in the beginning, and probablyy some of the lying could have been avoided if I had handled some things differently but I'm not beating myself up for my own mistakes. I have let them go. Its in the past. I wonder though if he's ever going to be able to full forgive himself.

I think we all have those thoughts. If we could have handled something better? I think the BS is in the more approved of position. They weren't the one who cheated. From experience as a WS, it's difficult to forgive the betrayal -- to forgive oneself -- regardless of what was going on in the marriage.

 

But I totally believe he's a good man who made a bad decision. Bad choice. His bad choices do not make him a bad person. In fact the very nature of him being a good man made his betrayal so much harder for him to cope with.

 

 

CCL

I don't know if you meant it to, but that made me feel better.

 

And of course that is my point. It has seemed on this thread that most people have taken the point of view that if a person has an affair, then ipso facto they are "bad". They have done something bad, therefore they are bad. What I was attempting to say, and either you misunderstood, or I didn't state it clearly is that there are many things that make up a person. Many actions are made by each one of us. To say that any particular action makes a person "bad" is IMO not valid.

 

 

I wouldn't dream of saying it is a matter of being non-judgmental, as I don't have a problem with my own judgment . However, possibly you could re-read what I said above.... I think a persons overall goodness or badness is not isolated to a single event or action, and stated as much in my original post. (and BTW, please do not assume what I mean - I didn't refer to an essence, and didn't mean such.) and really - you're sure I haven't thought things through that far???

 

TP - in my heart I believe you understand exactly what I'm saying, but really like arguing... but sometimes that's just fine . OK, so... say a person over the course of their life has been honest, trustworthy, reaches out to help others whenever possible, raises his/her children to be honest, teaches them well, is charitable to others, doesn't gossip, treats all people respectfully, isn't arrogant, shows humility in their actions. Yet, for some reason this person has an affair. The affair, of course, includes cheating and lying - two prime requisites of an affair. Is this person a "bad" person? I (personally) would probably say no. I don't believe a single incident or action defines a person.

 

Actually, I didn't contradict myself. I only contradicted what you assumed that I meant.

 

Please see above... I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

Well, empathy and compassion may be what has prevented you from having an affair. That's not universal either.. And I stand by my opinion. I personally do not believe that people who have never made a serious mistake and gone through the pain of recovering from it has the same level of compassion as do people who have had that experience. You don't need to have the same opinion, though... I really don't mind if you don't agree with me.

 

That was the best post ever. Assumptions are so hurtful. I agree some people understand plenty, but perhaps a lack of experience makes empathy less understandable for them? Or perhaps more likely, an overload of experience makes empathy less desirable to them?

 

Someone can also be faithful for 16 years but behave abusively, take drugs, and drink excessively I've seen that happen as well....there are many ways to behave 'badly' and cheating is one of them.

 

Does cheating on your W or H predispose someone to behave badly in other areas of their life?

f

 

I was faithful for 26 years. There were a lot of bad behaviors on both of our parts before then.

 

I don't get the whole tangent into trying to define what's "good" or "bad" here...no value in the argument.

 

We're ALL both good and bad...depending on what aspect of our lives/behaviors/actions/mindsets you happen to choose to look at.

 

Trying to decide if a person is "good" or "bad" is impossible...everyone has good actions and bad actions.

 

It's relative.

 

Why not drop that subject and just focus on the original intent here and discuss the merits of the book in question?

 

I agree. We're all good and bad.

 

But the term "good" is part of the title of the book, and in discussing that, we are, in part, discussing whether the book was titled as such to suck people in. I think it was titled as such precisely for that reason. It gives a stroke to the cheater and makes the book more palatable for one who might otherwise have some guilt pangs.

 

And you may be overly cynical. Precisely? That's exact right? You don't know that any more than I know the opposite for sure.

 

I don't get the whole tangent into trying to define what's "good" or "bad" here...no value in the argument.

 

We're ALL both good and bad...depending on what aspect of our lives/behaviors/actions/mindsets you happen to choose to look at.

 

Trying to decide if a person is "good" or "bad" is impossible...everyone has good actions and bad actions.

 

It's relative.

 

 

I think this discussion of good vs bad people is interesting, and one my BS and myself have been exploring.

 

I think all people we know are a mixture of good and bad in various proportions. The ones we associate with have the good and bad in ways that suits us. Funny people are sometimes cruel in their humour, but we like them for helping us make light of our lives etc. This is about the essential qualities of other people that makes us like or not like or even loathe them.

 

I think this is what a lot of the people on this thread mean when they are saying APs are not all bad, and can be considered good people, even if they made regrettable choices for a spell.

 

And then there is also the factor of whether people are treating us well or hurting us. Sometimes we begin to see people we like as bad simply because they did something to hurt us. Not because the balance of good and bad in that person has really changed from what we liked, just that it's now painful to be around them; they are 'bad' for us.

 

I think this is what a lot of people on this thread are saying when they say APs are not good people - they hurt someone in the way you were hurt.

 

And yes hurting someone is not good, but this hurtful act does not make up the sum total of a person's good/bad make up.

 

I personally do not think translating a spell of hurtful behaviour from an otherwise sound person into 'that person is bad' is a helpful way of getting over hurt - but I may be wrong here.

 

Agreed.

 

-----------------------

Yes, I think "Loyalty" is major.

 

There is not much good to be said for an unrepentant spouse who sins against their marriage: wife, family.. even though they may be a terribly nice person ..

 

But what about the repentant spouse? Well, and who is to decide someone is unrepentant? Are they unrepentant because they decided to leave their spouse? Maybe they just know it isn't working.

 

For a good person, loyalty becomes divided. I know that happened with my H. And while his divided loyalty hurt me - its part of why he did not confess sooner - I understand he felt he also owed her some loyalty too and that is part of what makes him a good man and part of what made him repeatedly beat himself up over his affair.

 

IMO it highlights even better how a good person can be so conflicted by their affair and the actions afterwards even harder to deal with because of divided loyalty, divided heart. It doesn't make them evil or bad. Which is why hearing and learning that good people can screw up really monumentally and how the screw up can last longer then a ONS even if they are a good person can help a good person figure themselves out and bring back together their conflicted sides.

 

CCL

 

I think you're a really strong person in many ways. I think good people can make monumental mistakes by having affairs. I think their spouses can forgive them for it or not and be good people either way. I think sometimes situations in the marriage have lent to the major screw ups -- both being at fault. I think sometimes it is just the WS being totally weak. I think the OP can either be a weak or more strong person who got involved in it all, but their feelings should never be discounted.

 

There is NO excuse for abuse and cheating (though cheating in my eyes, is abuse), addictions to drugs and alcohol are diseases and does not make a person bad. That's like saying a diabetic is bad.

 

Cheating is a choice, addictions are not.

 

Many things are choices. Including the original path to addiction. Which is really what cheaters choose. They aren't addicted at first. It sucks you in. Not judging others and forgiveness is a choice also. Anger can be a choice. Just say NO.

[JustJoe]

Sam, the biter,bit. If you had "just said NO!!". None of this would be happening to you. You seem to have a hard time being honest with yourself. Every time you admit responsibility, it is with so many caveats and excuses that it is difficult to believe that you really are remorseful for the affair. I like you a lot, so I wish you well, but I can't see anything good coming your way until you have admitted to yourself that what you did was for your own selfish reasons and that during the affair you were NOT a good person. You were before, and you may be now, but during, no. A drunk driver may be a good person, both before and after, but when he kills somebody on the highway, he isn't.

[califnan]

 

But what about the repentant spouse? Well, and who is to decide someone is unrepentant? Are they unrepentant because they decided to leave their spouse? Maybe they just know it isn't working.

 

Many things are choices. Including the original path to addiction. Which is really what cheaters choose. They aren't addicted at first. It sucks you in. Not judging others and forgiveness is a choice also. Anger can be a choice. Just say NO.

 

---------------------

 

When I think about it, I don't know of hardly any married people who are so unhappy within their marriages as to divorce "cold turkey".

 

I would think that if someone is truly unhappy they would divorce just to get out of the present situation - and with no one else in mind or of having their appetite wet. But mostly - excepting with situations of abuse, married people don't divorce unless they think they have someone else to go to - or the thought there of.

[crazycatlady]

Pausing here to say I love your posts and I hate the sharp knife I put into my spouse and my XAP. I feel like by saying that I am causing more pain. My spouse thinks why the Hell do you care about the XAP's pain and my XP thinks why the Hell don't you care more about my pain the most given you were unhappy? And then everyone thinks arrogant ******* for having any of those thoughts. Like why do I think I'm even capable of causing other people's pain and all of that. I hate I hurt anyone and I don't feel good or arrogant about any of it. I feel like I ended up being less than I'm supposed to be for others.

 

Thankyou for the compliment. I struggled posting that, because I wonder if anyone actually reads what I have to say plus my fireproof panties aren't very good . But with some encouragement from a couple of others (that I shared a similar post to what I ended up posting) I decided to gain the courage to post it. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

 

When you are split in your heart and in your head, you can't help but being less then what you can be.

 

I think we all have those thoughts. If we could have handled something better? I think the BS is in the more approved of position. They weren't the one who cheated. From experience as a WS, it's difficult to forgive the betrayal -- to forgive oneself -- regardless of what was going on in the marriage.

 

I don't know if you meant it to, but that made me feel better.

 

I don't want sympathy. I don't need sympathy (speaking for myself not other BSes). Sympathy makes me a victim, and I am not the victim. I'm not powerless here. I've never been powerless. When he was acting all weird, I could have pushed and confronted him. When I just KNEW he f-ed her, I could have kept pushing for the truth. I could have snooped way earlier then I did. But I didn't. And really....he suffered more. Without a doubt in my mind he suffered greatly. I was hurt. I felt like I had someone stabbing me in the back when I first found out. But I got over it far quicker. That's just me though.

 

I am glad my post made you feel better. You sound like a good person too who made a poor choice. Especially after reading your other threads about the counciling.

 

 

I blamed myself for a lot at first. But as more and more comes out from him (both from him and from the questions I ask) I see that very little of it has to do with me. There are a few things I could handled differently, but in all truth....can i say it would have been better? Maybe it was meant to be this way. I like our place now is better.

 

 

Many things are choices. Including the original path to addiction. Which is really what cheaters choose. They aren't addicted at first. It sucks you in. Not judging others and forgiveness is a choice also. Anger can be a choice. Just say NO.

 

I had a harder time dealing with my H when he had other issues (gambling/electronic escape what seems like a lifetime ago) then I have with this one. It was harder to deal with.

 

I have always said that each person's limits are their own and often very different from what other's limits would be.

 

CCL

[RedDevil66]

Many things are choices. Including the original path to addiction. Which is really what cheaters choose. They aren't addicted at first. It sucks you in. Not judging others and forgiveness is a choice also. Anger can be a choice. Just say NO.

 

You obviously have zero knowledge about addictions. Sit in a couple hundred al anon and aa meetings like I have, and you will change your tune.

Talk of which you know and not of which you assume

[Passion4Life]

Sam, the biter,bit. If you had "just said NO!!". None of this would be happening to you. You seem to have a hard time being honest with yourself. Every time you admit responsibility, it is with so many caveats and excuses that it is difficult to believe that you really are remorseful for the affair. I like you a lot, so I wish you well, but I can't see anything good coming your way until you have admitted to yourself that what you did was for your own selfish reasons and that during the affair you were NOT a good person. You were before, and you may be now, but during, no. A drunk driver may be a good person, both before and after, but when he kills somebody on the highway, he isn't.

 

completely agree with you , it is so close to reality .

[Spark1111]

Sam, the biter,bit. If you had "just said NO!!". None of this would be happening to you. You seem to have a hard time being honest with yourself. Every time you admit responsibility, it is with so many caveats and excuses that it is difficult to believe that you really are remorseful for the affair. I like you a lot, so I wish you well, but I can't see anything good coming your way until you have admitted to yourself that what you did was for your own selfish reasons and that during the affair you were NOT a good person. You were before, and you may be now, but during, no. A drunk driver may be a good person, both before and after, but when he kills somebody on the highway, he isn't.

 

I like this Just Joe!

 

My husband is a good man who, had he made a mistake ONCE, and admitted it to me, we would have been just fine I think, after a lot of anger.

 

Harder to understand is to continue making that same mistake, over and over and over again, for 1.5 YEARS!

 

It is not developing feelings for another; while that is hurtful, it can be addressed. It is the lying and deceiving for 1.5 years to allow yourself the continuation of those SECRET feelings that is oh so devastating and destructive to a BS, IMHO.

 

Six months after DDay, I asked him to write a timeline of what happened, why, etc, and he could not continue it. Why?

 

It was filled with rationalizations, justifications, and a real skewed view of our marital reality at the time that he had NEVER communicated to me, but I and the marriage were to blame for it.

 

The writings took the tone of an oh-so innocent love story, the it-just-sorta-happened variety, but we never meant it to.

 

When he began to write it down, every detail, and saw what a willing participant he had been every step of the way, he literally threw up and started crying.

 

THAT day was the beginning of true remorse.

 

Is he a good man? Yes, most definitely or I would not still be here. I do not have to be.

 

But he did lose his moral and ethical compass for a very long time, hurt so many people, including his OW, to fulfill his own selfish desires for a long time.

[califnan]

I still think that Samantha's affair partner was in the picture before she moved into the apartment, even if they had not yet been together.

[stillafool]

In MC is there such a thing as a "retribution" period? And what do you do.

[Samantha0905]

Sam, the biter,bit. If you had "just said NO!!". None of this would be happening to you. You seem to have a hard time being honest with yourself. Every time you admit responsibility, it is with so many caveats and excuses that it is difficult to believe that you really are remorseful for the affair. I like you a lot, so I wish you well, but I can't see anything good coming your way until you have admitted to yourself that what you did was for your own selfish reasons and that during the affair you were NOT a good person. You were before, and you may be now, but during, no. A drunk driver may be a good person, both before and after, but when he kills somebody on the highway, he isn't.

 

Well, I know that Joe!! Goodness!! Of course, in hindsight I know I screwed up. Hell, even when it's happening there is obviously a voice in there screaming don't do it. I caved. I was wrong. I've said that over and over and how is that not being honest with myself? You don't have to serve the bitter bit to me. It's an arrogant statement. That's what gets me. I don't need it served up by you or anyone else. It's like no matter how many times someone says they know the affair was a bad choice, people keep feeling the need to reiterate that to them. Well, thanks.

 

During the affair, I made a bad choice. During the affair there were also many good things about me -- therefore, I was not a bad person. And I'm not just saying that in defense of myself, but in defense of every other good person out there who had made very bad choices at times. We all do!!!

 

I don't accept your opinion about my person-hood or anyone else's. It's your opinion. Not mine. It is judgmental, in my opinion.

 

Here's a nice link discussing the issue at hand:

 

http://www.personal-development.com/chuck/labels.htm

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

You obviously have zero knowledge about addictions. Sit in a couple hundred al anon and aa meetings like I have, and you will change your tune.

Talk of which you know and not of which you assume

 

More assumptions.......

[Samantha0905]

Thankyou for the compliment. I struggled posting that, because I wonder if anyone actually reads what I have to say plus my fireproof panties aren't very good . But with some encouragement from a couple of others (that I shared a similar post to what I ended up posting) I decided to gain the courage to post it. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

 

When you are split in your heart and in your head, you can't help but being less then what you can be.

 

I read what you post. You make some very good points. You're right -- I know I definitely was doing something I thought I never would.

 

 

 

I don't want sympathy. I don't need sympathy (speaking for myself not other BSes). Sympathy makes me a victim, and I am not the victim. I'm not powerless here. I've never been powerless. When he was acting all weird, I could have pushed and confronted him. When I just KNEW he f-ed her, I could have kept pushing for the truth. I could have snooped way earlier then I did. But I didn't. And really....he suffered more. Without a doubt in my mind he suffered greatly. I was hurt. I felt like I had someone stabbing me in the back when I first found out. But I got over it far quicker. That's just me though.

 

I am glad my post made you feel better. You sound like a good person too who made a poor choice. Especially after reading your other threads about the counciling.

 

Yes, I think the wrongdoer -- if they have a conscience at all -- would suffer more long term. (Not minimizing the pain the BS goes through.) I can only speak for myself, but it's much easier for me to forgive others than it is for me to forgive myself for doing something terrible.

 

I think you're a really strong person in many ways. I think good people can make monumental mistakes by having affairs. I think their spouses can forgive them for it or not and be good people either way. I think sometimes situations in the marriage have lent to the major screw ups -- both being at fault. I think sometimes it is just the WS being totally weak. I think the OP can either be a weak or more strong person who got involved in it all, but their feelings should never be discounted.

 

I blamed myself for a lot at first. But as more and more comes out from him (both from him and from the questions I ask) I see that very little of it has to do with me. There are a few things I could handled differently, but in all truth....can i say it would have been better? Maybe it was meant to be this way. I like our place now is better.

 

I'm glad you are in a better place.

 

 

I had a harder time dealing with my H when he had other issues (gambling/electronic escape what seems like a lifetime ago) then I have with this one. It was harder to deal with.

 

I have always said that each person's limits are their own and often very different from what other's limits would be.

 

CCL

 

Yes and people have different coping skills depending on the particular problem -- sometimes they're more strong about some things and much weaker about others.

[OWoman]

I've got to agree with Donna on her response, Owoman.

 

You deliberately and intentionally took it out of context to change the intent of my post.

 

You know well what was meant in my post.

 

The statement was stated as a universal truth - it wasn't qualified with, "in the case of As, or behaviour I consider bad" - it was simply stated as if guilt INVARIABLY is there to tell someone to stop doing what they're doing. In which case, my point stands. It's a flakey, and potentially unreliable, wake-up call.

 

(And if it's a conditional thing - guilt "when you're doing something I / someone else disapproves of" is there to tell you to stop doing what you're doing, then you're onto shaky ground of another kind. Who gets to determine whether the guilt is "valid" (and thus a wake-up call) or not? When should someone give in the the guilt message, and when not?

 

Either the statement stands in the form in which it was written, or it needs better definition as to when it applies and when not.

[OWoman]

I think yes and here is why: The cheater obviously has poor communication skills, conflict avoidance issues and a propensity for self-destructive risk-taking. All of this, sometimes in addition to either a feeling of self-entitlement or low self-esteen or both, and poor impulse control can certainly spill over into other areas of your life.

 

These are characteristics and personality traits that enable one to cheat in secrecy on their SO.

 

I'd be hard pressed to believe it DOES NOT effect other areas of their life.

 

Sometimes those problems are contextual. Someone may have great communication skills in other areas, be really great at conflict resolution, and really well moderated to the external eye. But within the M... there may be other issues (such as an imbalance of power, a situation of abuse, cultural factors or other structural issues) that prevent that person from acting as they would elsewhere. Perhaps their spouse has a fearsome temper, so they're afraid to confront potential trouble areas, or perhaps the spouse is a narcissist, leaving them "walking on eggs", or perhaps their culture determines that the H is always right and that the W has no right to disagree, so the W stays silent... or whatever. There may be factors that exist within the M that condition responses that may not exist elsewhere, or may be differently mediated elsewhere.

 

I've often seen how different people are, say, in the workplace and in their M. Guys who are top dog at work, who are meek and mild and at their Ws beck and call at home; women who are logical, organised and together at work, who are ditzy and unfocussed and emotional butterflies at home; the great manager who is known for her empathy and patience, who snaps and snarls at her H and kids once she walks through the door; the happy-go-lucky charmer who slumps into silent depression once he climbs out of his car at home.

 

One reads all the time of people who had a well-kept secret - a hidden vice, a secret addiction, a dark side - that no one knew about because they kept that aspect of their life so well partitioned from everything else, no one else had a clue. Not everyone's life is so well-integrated that something in one corner necessarily spills over everywhere else - and, I'd guess, people with some kind of functional dysfunction would be more likely to be able to compartmentalise that aspect off, so that the rest of their lives are functional and "normal", and the dysfunction is relegated to that one, dark, hidden corner.

[JustJoe]

Sam, "the biter,bit", is another one of those English expressions I use. Got them from my Grandma, who was an English war bride. It means the same as " the pot calling the kettle , black". Me saying you should have "just said no", isn't any more judgemental than when you said the same think in the previous post. You meant, just say no to anger, I said, just say no to affairs. Any difference? And I am definitely including myself in that statement. I should have, just said no to the affair, also. I'm as guilty as anyone. I was not a good person, when I stole another man's wife. I was a good man before and I'm a good man now, but during? I think not.

[Samantha0905]

Sam, "the biter,bit", is another one of those English expressions I use. Got them from my Grandma, who was an English war bride. It means the same as " the pot calling the kettle , black". Me saying you should have "just said no", isn't any more judgmental than when you said the same think in the previous post. You meant, just say no to anger, I said, just say no to affairs. Any difference? And I am definitely including myself in that statement. I should have, just said no to the affair, also. I'm as guilty as anyone. I was not a good person, when I stole another man's wife. I was a good man before and I'm a good man now, but during? I think not.

 

I think you were possibly good even during. If you felt you were not good -- and not doing as you should, you were good in some way. You were aware. We all screw up. When I type that I am sensitive to the people we were with when we were screwing up. They were most definitely NOT the screw up. I need to say that.

 

Yes, if you knew you were doing something you shouldn't -- and you did it anyway -- you were weak. I was weak. I had a sense I should have said no. I didn't. But, it was honestly because I didn't know if I really should have said no for sure. In another moment of weakness, I can't say right now I 100% regret not having said no. I love my XAP. There were some things we had I will never regret. I know I can't say right now I would 100% prefer to have not met him given the circumstances. Not have made love to him. I can't say that and that is truly how I feel. I still miss him.

 

I don't mean to minimize the betrayal in the marriage, but I've never been into the ranking of wrongs to tell you the truth. I don't think God grades on a curve. I think seeing sin in this way leads to US being judgmental. It's not our place. We are all the same in God's eyes in my opinion. I get tired of people with their swords of judgment. I understand the view of the BS -- but eventually think the choice has to be to stay or not and staying involves moving forward.

 

I feel as people we tend to want to rank some things as extra bad or extra good. We're all guilty of having done some wrong. Maybe what we think of as our smallest of wrongs is actually as wrong as our perceived bigger wrongs.

 

Or maybe because I've committed one of the bigger "perceived" wrongs I'm defensive. Perhaps, if I end up being on the other side of the equation and find out my spouse has been unfaithful, I will think -- hey -- that wrong ranks way higher because it's against ME and US. I don't mean to be typing this lightly. I think we all come from our own place is my point.