When Good People Have Affairs: Inside the Hearts & Minds of People in Two Relationshi

[Owl]

Don't underestimate the value of guilt.

 

Feeling guilty means you need to change what you're doing.

 

It's there to TELL you that you need to change what you're doing.

 

Rather than "get past" the guilt...you're nearly always better served by listening to it and using it to fix the problem instead.

 

I'm not just talking about in infidelity situations, although it fits there as well as any other example I can think of.

 

Someone telling you to 'get past' the guilt and then make the decision is telling you to avoid actually solve the problem and only do what feels good for yourself without regard to the damage to others that created your feelings of guilt in the first place.

[OWoman]

17 types of A's...all of them wrong!!! What a load of crap designed to ease the concience of a cheater.

 

Condemnation is one possible response. Understanding is another.

 

Condemnation is probably more helpful to the BS to help them get through the day, but it won't change the situation. A condemning response to As simply means the BS needs to move on each time "cheating" occurs - or accept it, as much as they hate it, if they feel unable to leave.

 

Understanding, OTOH, offers an opportunity to break the cycle and stop the need for the behaviour.

 

It's similar to beating a child each time they wet their bed, or understanding why it's happening (perhaps they're traumatised, for example) and addressing that so that the bed-wetting goes away. Some people prefer to beat; others prefer to understand, and then address, the underlying cause.

 

Cheaters are selfish people, only concerned with their own gratification; of whatever type it is.

 

Some are. Others are the complete opposite. Painting WS as "all the same" is as daft as painting BSs as "all the same": some BSs are fat, frigid, abusive narcissists - but some are not. To assume that all are, because the (usually small) sample you've met IRL are like that, is at best naive.

[OWoman]

Don't underestimate the value of guilt.

 

Feeling guilty means you need to change what you're doing.

 

It's there to TELL you that you need to change what you're doing.

 

So... survivors who experience "survivor guilt" should stop living?

[Spark1111]

"I'm not a bad person just because I had an affair. Really, I'm not. Look, someone even wrote a book saying so! They couldn't write it in a book if it wasn't true!"

 

I find these 17 reasons derivative as I have read of them way before the author put them in a book and fleshed them out trying to give us literary and political greats they could apply to.

 

Ho hum.

 

I guess she reads the same large web-site that provides email as I do.

 

Only, she was smarter in that she then used them to create a feel-better book for WS.

 

Jeez, wish I had thought of that!

 

I think most affairs are a combination of some, if not several, of the 17 types and will only be discovered upon intensive IC.

[Spark1111]

So... survivors who experience "survivor guilt" should stop living?

 

Well, if you survived the Holocaust and your family did not....of course not.

 

If you intentionally or unintentially inflicted pain on innocents, well of course you should.

[Spark1111]

Condemnation is one possible response. Understanding is another.

 

Some are. Others are the complete opposite. Painting WS as "all the same" is as daft as painting BSs as "all the same": some BSs are fat, frigid, abusive narcissists - but some are not. To assume that all are, because the (usually small) sample you've met IRL are like that, is at best naive.

 

No one is condoning staying in an abusive marriage for ANY reason.

 

But where there is no abuse, only well-intentioned spouses trying to committ for the long haul, an affair is a form of abuse on the unsuspecting.

[Owl]

So... survivors who experience "survivor guilt" should stop living?

 

I've got to agree with Donna on her response, Owoman.

 

You deliberately and intentionally took it out of context to change the intent of my post.

 

You know well what was meant in my post.

[Samantha0905]

Don't underestimate the value of guilt.

 

Feeling guilty means you need to change what you're doing.

 

It's there to TELL you that you need to change what you're doing.

 

Rather than "get past" the guilt...you're nearly always better served by listening to it and using it to fix the problem instead.

 

I'm not just talking about in infidelity situations, although it fits there as well as any other example I can think of.

 

Someone telling you to 'get past' the guilt and then make the decision is telling you to avoid actually solve the problem and only do what feels good for yourself without regard to the damage to others that created your feelings of guilt in the first place.

 

I do agree guilt has its place and is there for a reason. I don't think people should, however, hold onto the guilt once the decision is made to continue in the marriage. It is better to learn from past wrongdoings and move forward.

[Just a stone's throw]

 

It would be. I would go to the bookstore and purchase it, but when someone has been a WS it's not exactly a title they want to bring home. Well, not this former WS anyway.

 

I will likely purchase it and read it when I'm out of town as I too would not expect my husband took think kindly of seeing it in our bathroom.....

[Samantha0905]

Condemnation is one possible response. Understanding is another.

 

True.

 

Condemnation is probably more helpful to the BS to help them get through the day, but it won't change the situation. A condemning response to As simply means the BS needs to move on each time "cheating" occurs - or accept it, as much as they hate it, if they feel unable to leave.

 

Hopefully, there wouldn't be repeat performances once the BS finds out about the affair. If so, I don't know why a BS would ever continue to put up with the cycle.

 

It's similar to beating a child each time they wet their bed, or understanding why it's happening (perhaps they're traumatised, for example) and addressing that so that the bed-wetting goes away. Some people prefer to beat; others prefer to understand, and then address, the underlying cause.

 

I do think both partners in a marriage -- if the decision is made to save the marriage -- need to examine and work on the underlying causes. I imagine marriage counseling comes in handy in doing just that.

 

Some are. Others are the complete opposite. Painting WS as "all the same" is as daft as painting BSs as "all the same": some BSs are fat, frigid, abusive narcissists - but some are not. To assume that all are, because the (usually small) sample you've met IRL are like that, is at best naive.

 

And narrow minded. Each situation is different. Each person involved is different.

 

It seems even when someone confesses the affair and attempts to move forward in the marriage, there are some people who will always think, "Once a cheater, always a cheater," or the person is a completely BAD person as a whole. It's very myopic thinking and all sorts of false assumptions and arrogant judgments are made about the individual as a whole.

 

Even people still involved in affairs are people. I think every person has value and deserves someone who attempts to speak to them in a respectful manner as opposed to condemning them. Now, I'm not saying a BS should feel that way towards OM or OW. I do think, however, if someone writes a book speaking to the WS in the context of attempting to help them work through some very confused emotions -- it is not something which should be looked down upon. And every someone who chooses to do so, will not have the same opinion. Some may say tell. Some may say do not tell.

 

It is interesting reading opinions of those advocating each. I suppose there's been a book written outlining the pros and cons of both telling and not telling? If not, there's a book idea.

[Samantha0905]

I will likely purchase it and read it when I'm out of town as I too would not expect my husband took think kindly of seeing it in our bathroom.....

 

Good idea.

[SavannahSmiles]

Um, hearing a curse word seriously hurts a person to their very core like being cheated on by a spouse would? LMFAOROTF!!!

 

As for the "planning affairs in advance" business, yes. It isn't a situation where two people meet and they inexoribly are drawn to the nearest hotel room by forces beyond their control. It evolves over time and requires effort in planning and sneaking and lying.

 

 

You're a smart woman. F meant "freakin" anyway. I don't cuss. Samantha's response to me was so ridiculous I ignored it. People are so hung up on not judging others - but when it's a matter of right and wrong or legal or illegal, etc, judging is necessary. Otherwise, everyone is always right...no grounds for divorce, no reason to arrest anyone, no reason to not have an affair. Puh-leez.

[silktricks]

Hmmmm - well, I guess I've gotta disagree with a lot of people here. I do think that "good" people can make many kinds of disastrous choices, including affairs. I would agree that those actions are not good, but I'm not of the opinion that bad actions define a person as bad, just as good actions do not necessarily define a person as good. I do think there's more to it than isolated actions - even an affair . I know the argument is that those actions aren't isolated - they include deception, lying, cheating, etc. But really - they are isolated to the single action and the requirements to hide it. There's a lot more that goes into being "good" IMO.

 

Humans err. It's the human condition. I personally would add to the defininition of a "good" person as someone who HAS made disastrous errors in their life, picked themselves up and did them no more. I am not sure if someone who has never really done anything wrong generally has as much compassion for other people as does someone who has fallen down themselves.

[jennie-jennie]

Hmmmm - well, I guess I've gotta disagree with a lot of people here. I do think that "good" people can make many kinds of disastrous choices, including affairs. I would agree that those actions are not good, but I'm not of the opinion that bad actions define a person as bad, just as good actions do not necessarily define a person as good. I do think there's more to it than isolated actions - even an affair . I know the argument is that those actions aren't isolated - they include deception, lying, cheating, etc. But really - they are isolated to the single action and the requirements to hide it. There's a lot more that goes into being "good" IMO.

 

Humans err. It's the human condition. I personally would add to the defininition of a "good" person as someone who HAS made disastrous errors in their life, picked themselves up and did them no more. I am not sure if someone who has never really done anything wrong generally has as much compassion for other people as does someone who has fallen down themselves.

 

I really liked this post, Silktricks! :bunny:

[crazycatlady]

Hmmmm - well, I guess I've gotta disagree with a lot of people here. I do think that "good" people can make many kinds of disastrous choices, including affairs. I would agree that those actions are not good, but I'm not of the opinion that bad actions define a person as bad, just as good actions do not necessarily define a person as good. I do think there's more to it than isolated actions - even an affair . I know the argument is that those actions aren't isolated - they include deception, lying, cheating, etc. But really - they are isolated to the single action and the requirements to hide it. There's a lot more that goes into being "good" IMO.

 

Humans err. It's the human condition. I personally would add to the defininition of a "good" person as someone who HAS made disastrous errors in their life, picked themselves up and did them no more. I am not sure if someone who has never really done anything wrong generally has as much compassion for other people as does someone who has fallen down themselves.

 

I'm not perfect either. I've made some horrid mistakes and I'm glad my H forgave me when I made them. I totally agree with this. And why forgiving him was easy, letting go was easy, and moving forward is rewarding.

 

CCL

[Samantha0905]

You're a smart woman. F meant "freakin" anyway. I don't cuss. Samantha's response to me was so ridiculous I ignored it. People are so hung up on not judging others - but when it's a matter of right and wrong or legal or illegal, etc, judging is necessary. Otherwise, everyone is always right...no grounds for divorce, no reason to arrest anyone, no reason to not have an affair. Puh-leez.

 

So sorry if I made an assumption about your use of the "F" word. Seriously. If you meant freakin and I assumed another word, I apologize.

 

So if "everyone" is not "right" -- are you? WTH?

 

Other than that -- maybe some people are hung up on judging others as opposed to not. I defer to what I know about judging others. Maybe judging is necessary? Okay. Judge not, lest ye be judged. I'm not putting myself in the position of judging others. If you like that position have fun with it.

 

Hmmmm - well, I guess I've gotta disagree with a lot of people here. I do think that "good" people can make many kinds of disastrous choices, including affairs. I would agree that those actions are not good, but I'm not of the opinion that bad actions define a person as bad, just as good actions do not necessarily define a person as good. I do think there's more to it than isolated actions - even an affair . I know the argument is that those actions aren't isolated - they include deception, lying, cheating, etc. But really - they are isolated to the single action and the requirements to hide it. There's a lot more that goes into being "good" IMO.

 

Humans err. It's the human condition. I personally would add to the definition of a "good" person as someone who HAS made disastrous errors in their life, picked themselves up and did them no more. I am not sure if someone who has never really done anything wrong generally has as much compassion for other people as does someone who has fallen down themselves.

 

This is a really good post filled with empathy. Thank you.

 

It sometimes feels like some people here think people who make bad choices should be stoned. I just don't get why they don't point that finger of judgment towards themselves. Stone right in the middle of their forehead and ouch. Am I really surrounded by Mother Teresas? (Love her by the way.) Are there that many people who haven't made really poor choices? Do they think being unfaithful is the ultimate bad choice?

 

What is the ultimate bad choice? Does God rank sin? Does He forgive? I know He does forgive.

Edited April 23, 2010 by Samantha0905

[Woggle]

I am not saying that cheaters should be stoned or have no redeeming qualities but I see very little empathy for those of us who have been cheated on. The attempts to play the victim just rub me the wrong way. I wish they understood how it felt to do everything with the best of intentions and do it with love only be betrayed in one of the worst possible ways. To me genuinely people do not treat people like that.

[threebyfate]

I haven't and don't plan to read the book but as to the title of this thread:

 

When Good People Have Affairs:

 

Good people don't have affairs or get involved with previously committed persons. You define yourself and your adjectives through your verbs.

[califnan]

I am not saying that cheaters should be stoned or have no redeeming qualities but I see very little empathy for those of us who have been cheated on. The attempts to play the victim just rub me the wrong way. I wish they understood how it felt to do everything with the best of intentions and do it with love only be betrayed in one of the worst possible ways. To me genuinely people do not treat people like that.

 

----------------------

 

Woggle, don't let it affect you anymore. From what I have understood from your prev thread, God has brought you a wonderful wife. Is that correct?

[Woggle]

----------------------

 

Woggle, don't let it affect you anymore. From what I have understood from your prev thread, God has brought you a wonderful wife. Is that correct?

 

It doesn't affect me but it gets me when people who are in the wrong and betraying the person they claim to love act like the victim.

[Samantha0905]

I am not saying that cheaters should be stoned or have no redeeming qualities but I see very little empathy for those of us who have been cheated on. The attempts to play the victim just rub me the wrong way. I wish they understood how it felt to do everything with the best of intentions and do it with love only be betrayed in one of the worst possible ways. To me genuinely people do not treat people like that.

 

I do feel empathy for you Woggle. I do feel horrible for treating someone like **** who treated me with the best of intentions. I would take it back if I could. He did mean everything with the best of intentions.

 

I wish it hadn't happened to you.

 

Maybe it's beyond the point of no return once a cheater Fs (not freakin') up. I understand how a BS would walk away. Perhaps I would do the same. It has to be the most difficult thing.

 

I'm just saying there are some people who have F'd up, who wishes they hadn't. You can't take some things back.

[FryFish]

I understand how a BS would walk away. Perhaps I would do the same.

Did you allow your husband to make this decision on his own?

[crazycatlady]

I've been tossing around in my mind if I wanted to post or not what my thoughts are about this thread.

 

While I have not read the book, and I won't be reading the book, I fully believe and have always believed that good people can make bad decisions and good people can have affairs, not just ONS but full blown affairs.

 

My husband is a good person. Aside from the affair - which can be put aside at this moment because that's the whole point of this - he's a great husband. He works so hard at supporting us, he has sacrificed a lot to provide for me and the kids, until recently he's been the sole provider for the family at his choice because he feels strongly about my being home for all of us given his career and everything. He has always supported me emotionally and mentally in all I have wanted to do. He pushes me to be a better person, he challanges me mentally and never puts my intelligence down. He encourages me to get out when I'm stressed, find a hobby that I enjoy, be myself beyond mother and wife. He encourages me to step out of my comfort zone of being a home body.

 

He is an amazing father. He's better then I am with the kids. He is more consistant, fairer, more intuned with them. He is amazing with them. I wish I could be as good.

 

He is a loyal friend which actually is what added to the problem of his affair.

 

He made a very bad choice. And continued to make bad choices as related to that situation. However during that time, he continued to try as best he could to be the good man he has always been. But he no longer felt like he was a good man. And living up to his own ideals of loyality became harder and so he beat himself up. Which didn't help the situation. It made the situation worse. So a book that might could help him deal with the fact that good people can make bad decisions might have been useful for us.

 

His self loathing made the situation worse. Without a doubt. It made the hiding last longer, it caused the situation to last longer without confession.

 

I have a lot of sympathy for him and what he went through. Yes I was really hurt by this. And it felt like someone was stabbing me in the back with a sharp knife, repeatedly. But that pain was short term. I knew there was never anything wrong with me. I wasn't missing anything. I could have handled things better in the beginning, and probablyy some of the lying could have been avoided if I had handled some things differently but I'm not beating myself up for my own mistakes. I have let them go. Its in the past. I wonder though if he's ever going to be able to full forgive himself.

 

But I totally believe he's a good man who made a bad decision. Bad choice. His bad choices do not make him a bad person. In fact the very nature of him being a good man made his betrayal so much harder for him to cope with.

 

 

CCL

[silktricks]

The author, and I guess yourself, are talking about "goodness" in a complete vacuum. In the context of this conversation, we're talking about people who've had affairs. That's it. We really know nothing else about them. How do we know this is a "good" person who had an affair rather than a "bad" person who had an affair?

And of course that is my point. It has seemed on this thread that most people have taken the point of view that if a person has an affair, then ipso facto they are "bad". They have done something bad, therefore they are bad. What I was attempting to say, and either you misunderstood, or I didn't state it clearly is that there are many things that make up a person. Many actions are made by each one of us. To say that any particular action makes a person "bad" is IMO not valid.

 

 

Well obviously here's the crux of the philosophical difficulty. You evidently think the quality of "goodness" is some sort of Platonic quality that is somehow inherent in the "essence" of the person in question.

 

I'm sure you haven't thought things through that far, but if you truly don't believe that it is one's actions that define a person's character, how then can you distinguish a "good" person from a "bad" person? More to the point--how can the outside observer determine whether a person is "good" or "bad" if not by observation of that person's behavior?

 

If Person A takes certain actions (such as having an affair), and Person B engages in exactly the same sort of conduct, how are you able to distinguish that Person A is "good" and Person B is also "good," or perhaps is "bad," not "good"?

 

Please don't claim this is a matter of being non-judgmental. When you characterize a person as "good" you are rendering a judgment, you are being just as judgmental as someone who considers the person "bad." So what are you hanging that judgment on?

I wouldn't dream of saying it is a matter of being non-judgmental, as I don't have a problem with my own judgment . However, possibly you could re-read what I said above.... I think a persons overall goodness or badness is not isolated to a single event pr action, and stated as much in my original post. (and BTW, please do not assume what I mean - I didn't refer to an essence, and didn't mean such.) and really - you're sure I haven't thought things through that far???

 

...and you still have failed to define what you mean by "good." All you are saying is that in your opinion, a person who engages in infidelity, deception, lying, cheating, "etc." is not a "bad" person. What is the "lot more that goes into being 'good'" ?

TP - in my heart I believe you understand exactly what I'm saying, but really like arguing... but sometimes that's just fine . OK, so... say a person over the course of their life has been honest, trustworthy, reaches out to help others whenever possible, raises his/her children to be honest, teaches them well, is charitable to others, doesn't gossip, treats all people respectfully, isn't arrogant, shows humility in their actions. Yet, for some reason this person has an affair. The affair, of course, includes cheating and lying - two prime requisites of an affair. Is this person a "bad" person? I (personally) would probably say no. I don't believe a single incident or action defines a person.

 

You've just entirely contradicted yourself. You've just defined a "good" person as someone who has decided to forever after refrain from all those "affair" behaviors which you previously claimed did not make a person "bad" for engaging in.

Actually, I didn't contradict myself. I only contradicted what you assumed that I meant.

 

Also, the context of the thread is a book in which the author characterized people who have engaged in affairs as "good"--NOT in which the author characterized people who had previously had affairs, and then changed their behavior away from that, as "good." The author of the book doesn't say people who have affairs are not "good" until they've changed their behavior.

 

In any case, first you stated you do not characterize people as good or bad based on their behavior; yet in the next breath that's exactly what you do.

Please see above... I'm tired of repeating myself.

 

What a gratuitous statement on your part.

 

What exactly is it that you think is one of the things that prevents people who don't have affairs, from not having them in the first place? Empathy, and compassion for their spouse, among other qualities.

Well, empathy and compassion may be what has prevented you from having an affair. That's not universal either.. And I stand by my opinion. I personally do not believe that people who have never made a serious mistake and gone through the pain of recovering from it has the same level of compassion as do people who have had that experience. You don't need to have the same opinion, though... I really don't mind if you don't agree with me. Edited April 23, 2010 by silktricks

[califnan]

A "Good" person. A person who would cheat on their Spouse, could also be capable of other forms of dishonesty. This could include lying, financial cheating, and fraud. I saw it happen.