Disclosure, datclosure

[crazycatlady]

CatLady, I'd prowl around your door, any day.

 

LOL You sound young and cute. Careful I have cougar tendacies and license to flirt outside of the marriage .

 

Sorry been drinking and in an excellent mood here.

 

CCL

[JustJoe]

Well I'm not that young and not that cute but I do have possibilities.

[Skump]

Trying to examine this issue "dispassionately" (well, to the extent that's even possible/logical)... it's still a tough one.

 

On a utilitarian analysis, the answer seems simple: if the affair was a ONS or short-lived, the world-of-duh obvious choice is to keep it secret.

 

But of course, no one accepts pure utilitarian reasoning, and there other important issues involved that can't be quickly dismissed.

 

For instance, concealing an affair creates a weird disassociation between your personal identity and your identity as a spouse. In a non-trivial sense, post-affair, your BS can never truly love you. He/she is condemned to love a fiction, an idea of who you are.

 

Think this is just philosophical bullsh*t? Well, consider...

 

As time passes, the gulf between the BS's idea of who you are, and who you actually are, is going to increase. Perversely, any honorable action you perform that would increase your BS's faith in you, is concomitantly expanding their fictional view of your identity.

 

By choosing to keep your infidelity secret, you are basically accepting that you will never have a fully authentic, honest relationship with the person you've married. Worse, you're committed to playing a mind game against your spouse. You'll be forced to lie, of course, sometime or other - but shadier deceits may be required. Have some incriminating motel receipts? Gotta destroy that evidence. OOPS - wife noticed a lipstick smudge on the side of your car seat that's usually not exposed? Gotta find an excuse for that, and look convincing while delivering it. Gotta make her believe that she'd be silly to even imagine you'd do what you did...

 

...that she'd be silly to imagine you are who you really are.

Edited April 25, 2010 by Skump

[JustJoe]

This is a very interesting point, Skump. The non-disclosing WS is doomed to a phoney marriage by their very deceit. This point is unargueable.

[ricardotorero]

Without wanting to change the topic, skumps last point about making the unknowing partner feel/look stupid is key. Non-disclosure relies on this to deflect the inevitable evidence that always is there. So, advocates of non-disclosure do you really want to do this second level of disrespect? Sorry let's change that to, you have to commit many levels of disrespect and continue doing so for ever

[Just a stone's throw]

Again, I think you have to know your own situation to know what is right. Back about a year ago we had a major 'come to Jesus' about our sex life and that it had led us both to feeling lonely, disconnected and unhappy.

 

We nearly chose D over it but instead ended up in counseling and that helped a tremendous amount to get us talking and fixing what was wrong. During that really awful first convo about the unhappiness, he insinuated that I must be having an A. He would not come out and ask me directly. In subsequent convos we talked about the stigma of D from our family, community and work perspectives.

 

I think he knows that something has led us to be where we are today. I think he knows there could have very well been a relationship outside our marriage and he has said things that lead me to believe that he does not want to know and that if we are moving in the right direction, perhaps not looking back to how we got here may be a blessing.

 

I am carrying the burden for us both. Not a hero, but it is not easy either. I am choosing to do that. I think there was enough suspicion on his part that if he wanted to know he would ask me and I would be truthful. Maybe someday he will decide to ask. Maybe when things aren't so rosey and we're having a low point. We'll see.

[bentnotbroken]

Again, I think you have to know your own situation to know what is right. Back about a year ago we had a major 'come to Jesus' about our sex life and that it had led us both to feeling lonely, disconnected and unhappy.

 

We nearly chose D over it but instead ended up in counseling and that helped a tremendous amount to get us talking and fixing what was wrong. During that really awful first convo about the unhappiness, he insinuated that I must be having an A. He would not come out and ask me directly. In subsequent convos we talked about the stigma of D from our family, community and work perspectives.

 

I think he knows that something has led us to be where we are today. I think he knows there could have very well been a relationship outside our marriage and he has said things that lead me to believe that he does not want to know and that if we are moving in the right direction, perhaps not looking back to how we got here may be a blessing.

 

I am carrying the burden for us both. Not a hero, but it is not easy either. I am choosing to do that. I think there was enough suspicion on his part that if he wanted to know he would ask me and I would be truthful. Maybe someday he will decide to ask. Maybe when things aren't so rosey and we're having a low point. We'll see.

 

 

Maybe someday he won't need to ask because you will be adult enough to open your mouth and state the truth. Right for you doesn't mean right for him, but we all know your stance so............................

[bentnotbroken]

Alright Just Joe, I found it!

 

Well...my first go round w/ OM I disclosed to my H. We ended it, hadn't spoken for awhile & I thought it was completely over. I actually went in for STD testing because I was so freaked out about not having been with anyone else for 20 years. That was over a year ago, and we've continued since. My H thinks we've only been in contact via phone/email & haven't seen each other. So I guess I opted for partial disclosure? My reasoning was so I wouldn't hurt my H. He knew what he knew. In college, I had an extremely jealous & posesive boyfriend who accused me of everything. So yeah, eventually I did cheat & I feel like it got me out of a horrible situation & showed me that I needed to actually get away from my boyfriend more than anything else. With my H it's different. He gets R & M and cycles of people & life. He doesn't hold me up to some impossible moral standard that it appears only a few can live by. So I told him about the one time & the times we've been in touch & that's all.

 

I think it's different for everyone....yeah, if I would have M my boyfriend he would have killed me, the guy, anyone in his way. So I think if you're going to put yourself in a dangerous situation...DON'T TELL!! The other thing is if it's going to hurt the other person so badly that they'll never come back from it, only the person in that R would know that.

 

So what do I think?? I don't think people should tell, I think it's almost selfish in a sense to tell someone & have them deal with all that goes with it in an effort to absolve yourself of guilt & make the BS freak out. What I think should happen (if people want to stay M), is get out of the A as best you can & suffer with your own guilt in silence & hope to make it up to your spouse in other ways. I mean really? If you disclose the other person may never forgive you & you both might turn into people you really don't want to be M to. The M will never be the same.

 

That choice should belong to the BS as the chose to cheat belonged only to you. Why is it people who cheat are so afraid that giving an adult the decision for their future is protecting them? That is a truck load of bullcrap and self preservation. So you stay with your so called guilt and "hope" you can make it up to them. It sounds like a child hoping the parent doesn't find out you dented the car and if they do you will conveniently say......"wasn't me!" If you are going to lie to your spouse, at least have the guts to say it is about protecting yourself and wanting to maintain a marriage that you didn't respect in the first place. Non disclosure or partial disclosure is a form of abuse where you force the BS to live a lie with a liar.

[bentnotbroken]

I would also like to bring in the Religious factor. I asked a Chaplain friend of mine about this and he consulted other ministers, and they were virtually unanimous that any Christian or professed Christian must disclose, in order to take communion. I'm not religious myself, but it does give pause for thought.............Sam, "Queering the pitch", is a cricket term,it means the same as "cutting off your nose to spite your face". Since I started this thread I have heard many reasons, pro and con, for disclosure, and have yet to make up my mind if I did the best thing by forcing my MW to disclose. My reasons for doing this are many. I won't get into them here, so as not to prejudice anyone. I'm glad that so many people have come to this thread and been polite and respectful of the posters with views different from theirs. It shows off LS as a truly useful site for the give and take of relationship advice and experience. I am very grateful to ALL posters , who have contributed...... THANKS A LOT!!!!!:)

 

 

This is true. How do you call yourself having a marriage when one person doesn't know what they should to participate. God doesn't condone false witnessing no more than He condones adultery.

[Samantha0905]

This is a very interesting point, Skump. The non-disclosing WS is doomed to a phoney marriage by their very deceit. This point is unargueable.

 

So, you're saying anyone who has any secret or lie they have not shared with their partner has a phony marriage for life? I don't think so. I imagine my husband has lied to me at one point or another and I imagine he may have kept a thing or two secret. Most people do.

 

Again, I think you have to know your own situation to know what is right. Back about a year ago we had a major 'come to Jesus' about our sex life and that it had led us both to feeling lonely, disconnected and unhappy.

 

We nearly chose D over it but instead ended up in counseling and that helped a tremendous amount to get us talking and fixing what was wrong. During that really awful first convo about the unhappiness, he insinuated that I must be having an A. He would not come out and ask me directly. In subsequent convos we talked about the stigma of D from our family, community and work perspectives.

 

I think he knows that something has led us to be where we are today. I think he knows there could have very well been a relationship outside our marriage and he has said things that lead me to believe that he does not want to know and that if we are moving in the right direction, perhaps not looking back to how we got here may be a blessing.

 

I am carrying the burden for us both. Not a hero, but it is not easy either. I am choosing to do that. I think there was enough suspicion on his part that if he wanted to know he would ask me and I would be truthful. Maybe someday he will decide to ask. Maybe when things aren't so rosey and we're having a low point. We'll see.

 

I certainly think my husband would have preferred not to know. I've said it many times, but he had told me years ago if I ever had an affair and decided to stay in the marriage, he would rather not know about it. I honestly feel the same way. It just causes hurt and pain.

[Samantha0905]

Oh -- and Joe -- thanks! I know nothing about cricket! I do, however, enjoy learning new things and appreciate the explanation.

[JustJoe]

Sam, surely you can see the difference between lying and continuing to lie about an affair, and lies or secrets of lesser impact.

[Samantha0905]

Sam, surely you can see the difference between lying and continuing to lie about an affair, and lies or secrets of lesser impact.

 

I'm saying choosing to not disclose the affair does not make the person in a "phony" marriage for life Joe. That is judgmental bullcrap and wishful thinking by those who think it has to be their way or the highway -- or something is deficient. Maybe there are people who don't disclose who end up being in a gloriously happy and fulfilled relationship. I do think sometimes a person may choose not to disclose out of love. That love can be because of the love we feel about our spouse -- plus, the love we felt about our affair partner, and the love we feel for a whole lot of other people involved in our lives who would be effected, etc.

 

I can't come up with an exact and definitive answer here as to what is right in every situation. Neither can you Joe. I think it's because people end up being involved -- a lot of real people. Not just BS, WS or OM/OW. People with names. Every situation has its own dynamics.

 

I think, ultimately, what happens is what was meant to happen.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Samantha0905

[JustJoe]

Well Sam, I guess I'll have to disagree. As I understand it, marriage is a life partnership, based on love, honesty, trust and devotion from one partner to the other. A real marriage must have those things in order to be a healthy and honorable condition. Nobody has, as yet , told me how non-disclosure is helpful in making this type of relationship happen. So yes, in my opinion, non-disclosure is a continuation of the affair, and the marriage is phoney as a result. This is my opinion, but thank you for being polite , even in disagreement.

Edited April 26, 2010 by JustJoe

[PhoenixRise]

Well Sam, I guess I'll have to disagree. As I understand it, marriage is a life partnership, based on love, honesty, trust and devotion from one partner to the other. A real marriage must have those things in order to be a healthy and honorable condition. Nobody has, as yet , told me how non-disclosure is helpful in making this type of relationship happen. So yes, in my opinion, non-disclosure is a continuation of the affair, and the marriage is phoney as a result. This is my opinion, but thank you for being polite , even in disagreement.

 

JustJoe

 

I agree with you. The kind of intimacy many WS say they crave is impossible to achieve if one partner is hiding a massive relationship altering secret. True intimacy requires courage and honesty.

 

A person who doesn't disclose is conducting a phony marriage. And if a BS finds out about the affair from another source even long after the affair has ended, that BS will look back and question the validity and authenticity of those years when they didn't know about the affair.

[Samantha0905]

Well Sam, I guess I'll have to disagree. As I understand it, marriage is a life partnership, based on love, honesty, trust and devotion from one partner to the other. A real marriage must have those things in order to be a healthy and honorable condition. Nobody has, as yet , told me how non-disclosure is helpful in making this type of relationship happen. So yes, in my opinion, non-disclosure is a continuation of the affair, and the marriage is phoney as a result. This is my opinion, but thank you for being polite , even in disagreement.

 

Okay Joe. And i understand your position. But, have you lived that position yet? I'm just wondering -- have you been married? It's easier to say things in exactitude when we've on the outside looking in. In principle, a perfect (healthy and honorable as you would define it) marriage would not involve an affair at all. Totally principled people would not be involved in an affair from any angle -- OW/OM included. I get that.

 

I've lived 27 years of marriage and dated the same person six years before that. I've had an affair for one of those years. I feel there are so many things that have happened in this marriage that won't be minimized by stoning (calling it phoney) over a wrong choice. There are many things in this marriage which are healthy and honorable and Hell -- damn worthy of praise. It's hard work being married for that many years. It hasn't all been healthy and honorable but a Hell of a lot of it has. I'm proud of my family. I forgive myself for my wrong choice and I damn well understand I'm not the only one in the marriage who has made poor choices. WE screw up.

 

I still honestly feel it would have been just as fine not to tell my spouse about the affair. In this case, better to not have told. It's all depending on the particular people and the circumstances. That's my point. People who choose not to tell - -who feel it would hurt and cause more harm than good -- do not exist in phony marriages. I think it's judgmental to decide what is "right" for everyone who has had an affair.

Edited April 26, 2010 by Samantha0905

[JustJoe]

But don't you see Sam, that by not disclosing, you are taking away the rights of the BS. Which is hugely disrespectful. If marriage is a partnership , shouldn't BOTH spouses have access to the same information, in order for BOTH of them to make the decisions? How true and honest can a marriage be if one of the partners takes it upon themselves to make life-altering decisions affecting both without the input or knowledge of the other. If your husband sold your home or spent all of your money without telling you, or if you had an abortion without telling him, it would amount to the same thing. You cannot have an honest marriage with such deceit, so I stand behind my opinion. And you saying that my opinion is invalid because I've not been married seems a trifle arrogant.

Edited April 26, 2010 by JustJoe

[Skump]

I'm saying choosing to not disclose the affair does not make the person in a "phony" marriage for life Joe. That is judgmental bullcrap and wishful thinking by those who think it has to be their way or the highway -- or something is deficient.

 

Well, actually, sometimes it does. If your spouse would totally reject you if s/he knew what you did, then... yeah, s/he really doesn't love the real you, post-affair. S/he only loves an idea of who you are, one that doesn't match up with reality.

 

Now, some would be generous enough to forgive a partner after an affair, but a whole hell of a lot of people wouldn't be. Hiding an affair to preserve a relationship with a partner who wouldn't forgive? IMO, that's kind of a phony relationship. It only exists because of lies, or at least the perpetual absence of the truth.

 

Sometimes owning up to a very bad choice has very bad consequences in and of itself - but that's not a good argument for duplicity. While everyone is entitled to their shot at full redemption, they're not entitled to it on any particular person's time or dime.

 

BTW, I would of course concede that BS may have contributed to a strained relationship that made an affair more likely. Hell, the BS could be a complete jerk. That doesn't change my argument, however.

[Owl]

I agree with Skump's take for the most part...

 

 

Not disclosing the truth about something as HUGE as an affair...something that might change the way that your spouse perceives you and your marriage...is completly self-serving...it's not at all about 'saving' your spouse the pain...it's about avoiding the consequences of your actions. It's about avoiding dealing with the ramifications and results of your choices.

 

This would indeed be comparable to hiding from your spouse an abortion, selling the family home without discussion, etc...

 

It impacts everyone and could reasonably change the person's choice to remain with you...hiding that isn't in any way protecting them...it's only protecting the person holding the secret.

[Samantha0905]

Well, I simply disagree and I suppose we could all keep repeating ourselves with this argument. We all have opinions and it's interesting to read everyone's perspectives.

 

Joe -- sorry if I seemed a trifle arrogant!

[Just a stone's throw]

Really - An affair equates to an abortion? I'm sorry, not in my book.

[JustJoe]

You're right "Stones", an abortion is an honest attempt to take control of a situation, an affair is a deceitful attempt to avoid taking control. I stand corrected.

[bentnotbroken]

You're right "Stones", an abortion is an honest attempt to take control of a situation, an affair is a deceitful attempt to avoid taking control. I stand corrected.

 

 

Indeed, and well said.

[Just a stone's throw]

Well, not to TJ but it's your thread so I will. Really, killing an unborn baby is better, no... I mean more morally acceptable to you than having an affair? Just to be clear, in your eyes that is what you're saying?

[silverfish]

Well' date=' not to TJ but it's your thread so I will. Really, killing an unborn baby is better, no... I mean more morally acceptable to you than having an affair? Just to be clear, in your eyes that is what you're saying?[/quote']

 

 

No idea how this question arose in the first place but I'd be interested to hear how this issue would pan out between two men discussing extra marital sex on the one hand and a baby on the other. You guys have too much time on your hands and condom machines are right there when you take a piss in between beers...its that easy.