Maybe porn really does more harm than good for men?

[A O]

How would you feel if it were your man?

I would feel pretty disgusted. I don't understand why you're asking

Why ask a question where the answer is the same for you, and most women, as it would be for most men. In other words, you knew what the answer would be! Why ask a question unless it wasn't a question at all, but instead, a thinly veiled rant dressed up as a question!

 

I can't think of any other industry which requires people to expose themselves to STDs and strongly encourages or even prevents them from using protection.

The starting point is the same for this industry as any industry. You choose to work in a particular field, knowing full well the hazards, if any, involved. The type of hazard, as far as discussion purposes are concerned, is immaterial unless its your job to monitor a range of work places. And if it is, then we'd all expect to see a lot more workplace-wide information in order to give porn its proper context.

 

I don't get how you guys are missing this point

We're not missing the point. You just keep trying to move the goalposts in order to make a point! The simple fact of the matter is that this whole side issue falls squarely under the banner of personal responsibility. An aspect to which, some of you seem to want to brush aside in an effort to ramp up the victim verse villain dynamic. We're not buying it.

 

 

.

[Taramere]

No, they'll be told, "We don't have time for this BS" and they'll get someone else to do it.

 

I think some individuals in the industry take a somewhat harder line than that.

 

Years ago, I saw this Channel 4 documentary called "Hardcore". The documentary team followed this young English woman Felicity and her agent ("Dirty Dick") around, documenting her efforts to break into the US porn scene. Her agent felt she was being "difficult" in refusing to do certain kinds of work. So he took her to Max Hardcore's chateau - explaining to the documentary team that exposing her to someone like MH would weaken her boundaries to extreme porn.

 

I wish I could find that documentary on youtube, as it was absolutely mind-boggling. I didn't have any particular view on porn until I saw it, but this programme just stayed with me.

 

As they went into Max Hardcore's "chateau" I recall the narrator saying something about the whole documentary crew getting a really bad feeling. MH looked Felicity up and down, and then without ceremony shafted her from behind in front of everyone. This seemed to be part of the "looking her over" phase. Then filming began. Either the documentary crew weren't allowed into the room where the scene was filmed, or they didn't show it - but, they narrated that MH had attempted to choke Felicity and showed her running out of the room crying and in a terrible state.

 

Then the crew filmed her in a bedroom, where MH was trying to talk her into resuming the scene. Initially he was playing it softly, and she was saying no. Then he started yelling at her, and bullying her into the scene. I recall watching it and thinking "Jesus - there's a real consent issue here. This girl has nobody to help her. How the hell can the documentary crew just film this and not step in?" Her agent was just sitting there watching her getting bullied with a smirk on his face.

 

Then the documentary crew did step in. One of the crew responsible for legal issues felt that there was a major consent issue. Felicity was clearly out of her depth, and potentially they were filming the preliminary to a rape or sexual assault. So they dragged her out of there.

 

Max Hardcore complained afterwards that he was misrepresented by the crew....but there's only so much that careful editing can achieve. Nobody was forcing him to scream at and bully that actress for refusing to do a scene. He (Max Hardcore) always talks about how actresses are free to leave anytime they want...and makes them do filmed exit interviews (on the set) where they state as much.

 

However, Felicity was very clearly not being given any choice in the matter. She wasn't told "okay - you're under no obligation to do the scene if you don't want. We won't be using you for this film." She was told that she was a piece of ****, that the film crew had travelled from Malibu to do this scene, that a load of money was being lost while she prevaricated about doing the scene.

 

It was a glimpse right into what really goes on - at least on a Max Hardcore movie. What these people really mean when they talk about "consent". Bullying and intimidating someone into doing a scene they really don't want to do doesn't result in genuine consent. That's just one director. I don't know how others operate...but Max Hardcore is currently serving time in prison for obscenity, and he's had no shortage of people howling on his behalf about his First Amendment rights.

 

Always they talk about these actresses having consented to everything that got filmed. Yet there he was, in front of a documentary film crew, bullying a girl into doing something she didn't want to do. I don't think it would have been possible to watch that and come to any conclusion other than "she really doesn't have a choice here. She's out of her depth and she's terrified."

 

It was horribly upsetting viewing. I recall an interview with the documentary maker who said that the initial aim of the documentary had actually been to be quite a light-hearted, fun examination of the porn industry. Felicity was a bubbly, cheeky sort of girl who would be the ideal person to follow. Once they got into the thick of it, though, they were horrified by what they were seeing.

 

But...as someone else has said, if people like fast food burgers then they're going to buy those fast food burgers regardless of the ethics of the companies producing them. Likewise, if people want to consume porn they will consume it - regardless of how unethical the industry might be.

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-936830-my-fears-for-all-felicities.do

Edited May 7, 2010 by Taramere

[silic0ntoad]

I think some individuals in the industry take a somewhat harder line than that.

 

Years ago, I saw this Channel 4 documentary called "Hardcore". The documentary team followed this young English woman Felicity and her agent ("Dirty Dick") around, documenting her efforts to break into the US porn scene. Her agent felt she was being "difficult" in refusing to do certain kinds of work. So he took her to Max Hardcore's chateau - explaining to the documentary team that exposing her to someone like MH would weaken her boundaries to extreme porn.

 

I wish I could find that documentary on youtube, as it was absolutely mind-boggling. I didn't have any particular view on porn until I saw it, but this programme just stayed with me.

 

As they went into Max Hardcore's "chateau" I recall the narrator saying something about the whole documentary crew getting a really bad feeling. MH looked Felicity up and down, and then without ceremony shafted her from behind in front of everyone. This seemed to be part of the "looking her over" phase. Then filming began. Either the documentary crew weren't allowed into the room where the scene was filmed, or they didn't show it - but, they narrated that MH had attempted to choke Felicity and showed her running out of the room crying and in a terrible state.

 

Then the crew filmed her in a bedroom, where MH was trying to talk her into resuming the scene. Initially he was playing it softly, and she was saying no. Then he started yelling at her, and bullying her into the scene. I recall watching it and thinking "Jesus - there's a real consent issue here. This girl has nobody to help her. How the hell can the documentary crew just film this and not step in?" Her agent was just sitting there watching her getting bullied with a smirk on his face.

 

Then the documentary crew did step in. One of the crew responsible for legal issues felt that there was a major consent issue. Felicity was clearly out of her depth, and potentially they were filming the preliminary to a rape or sexual assault. So they dragged her out of there.

 

Max Hardcore complained afterwards that he was misrepresented by the crew....but there's only so much that careful editing can achieve. Nobody was forcing him to scream at and bully that actress for refusing to do a scene. He (Max Hardcore) always talks about how actresses are free to leave anytime they want...and makes them do filmed exit interviews (on the set) where they state as much.

 

However, Felicity was very clearly not being given any choice in the matter. She wasn't told "okay - you're under no obligation to do the scene if you don't want. We won't be using you for this film." She was told that she was a piece of ****, that the film crew had travelled from Malibu to do this scene, that a load of money was being lost while she prevaricated about doing the scene.

 

It was a glimpse right into what really goes on - at least on a Max Hardcore movie. What these people really mean when they talk about "consent". Bullying and intimidating someone into doing a scene they really don't want to do doesn't result in genuine consent. That's just one director. I don't know how others operate...but Max Hardcore is currently serving time in prison for obscenity, and he's had no shortage of people howling on his behalf about his First Amendment rights.

 

Always they talk about these actresses having consented to everything that got filmed. Yet there he was, in front of a documentary film crew, bullying a girl into doing something she didn't want to do. I don't think it would have been possible to watch that and come to any conclusion other than "she really doesn't have a choice here. She's out of her depth and she's terrified."

 

It was horribly upsetting viewing. I recall an interview with the documentary maker who said that the initial aim of the documentary had actually been to be quite a light-hearted, fun examination of the porn industry. Felicity was a bubbly, cheeky sort of girl who would be the ideal person to follow. Once they got into the thick of it, though, they were horrified by what they were seeing.

 

But...as someone else has said, if people like fast food burgers then they're going to buy those fast food burgers regardless of the ethics of the companies producing them. Likewise, if people want to consume porn they will consume it - regardless of how unethical the industry might be.

 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-936830-my-fears-for-all-felicities.do

 

 

Note. Extreme porn. And, that this is only one select facet of the porn industry, which cannot overall be judged by the actions of one scum bag producer.

[silic0ntoad]

I think that sleeping with a crack whore is a very disgusting act because regardless of the fact that she is using what she can to get her next hit, you are using her to get your "hit." Mutual usership, while a choice is disgusting. Porn is another form of usership, I don't see how anyone that supports porn and usership can feel good about themselves when they know how their "high" was produced.

 

 

You know, I take SERIOUS offense to this. If you know nothing about crack addiction or drug addiction in it's entirety, then don't post blantant and ignorant comparisons of two things on completely different levels.

 

My brother is a Cocaine addict. I've seen it destroy his life. Completely. In more ways then petty porn use could ever affect anyone's lives.

 

So ladies, before you get all uppity and righteous, consider, for one second, that cocaine and crack useage and addiction are diseases of the mind, with serious physical, monetary and emotional impact on the user and everyone around them.

 

It's completely absurd and ridiculous for JS (in the past) and now you to make this stupid, idiotic and downright laughable comparison, which clearly illustrates that you have no ******* clue what you're on about.

[silic0ntoad]

Just to illustrate my point, earlier in this thread I posted an article which actually compared drug addiction and "porn" addiction. Drug addiction usually starts with a smaller offering, something to tip the user off and start them hooked.

 

Then, once they are stuck on a drug, their body will build up defenses and they will saturate themselves with it trying to get that first high feeling all over again.

 

Once saturated their drug of choice usually doesn't do it for them anymore. So they will move onto the next, usually something harder, to get them high.

 

There is absolutely zero evidence that guys who watch porn will change to a more extreme form of pornography in order to get their rocks off. That's true addiction. Switching because you saturate yourself with the chosen material to the point that it does nothing for you anymore.

 

There is no evidence. It's stated clearly in the article and everyone ignores it. But as long as you keep making assanine statements and comparisons, I will keep stating that it is ignorant and repulsive to make these assumptions and comparisons with no knowledge base.

[sally4sara]

I've work for good people and I've worked for some serious nightmare people.

 

Just because I agree to do a job, it doesn't mean I agree to any kind of treatment while on that job the employer is inclined to dish out.

 

If there is porn where the actors are treated well and not bullied into certain acts, and there is porn where actors are treated horribly and harmed, why would you choose to watch the latter and think "meh, her/his fault for agreeing to do the job"? (wack wack wack wack ahhhhh)

[espec10001]

I've had a change of heart. I realized yesterday that all these problems, this "war" between the sexes, is just a means to divide us as common people with common issues and the day to day struggle.

 

I now see the validity in the woman's argument, how we simply don't know how these girls end up in these situations, and I agree that sometimes we have to show some compassion for others who have issues we can never understand. I mean maybe they were forced into it by a poor childhood or abuse, we don't know.

 

I think porn is more a symptom of a sick society, one that has lost it's way. It's not necessarily only the woman's fault or the man's fault, but the way we as humans relate to one another.

 

I think we should be asking ourselves, why does porn exist in the first place? The men provide the demand and the women provide the supply, but why? What is it about human nature that seeks that quick fix, be it drugs, gambling, alcohol, sex, over eating, etc?

[dreamingoftigers]

You know, I take SERIOUS offense to this. If you know nothing about crack addiction or drug addiction in it's entirety, then don't post blantant and ignorant comparisons of two things on completely different levels.

 

My brother is a Cocaine addict. I've seen it destroy his life. Completely. In more ways then petty porn use could ever affect anyone's lives.

 

So ladies, before you get all uppity and righteous, consider, for one second, that cocaine and crack useage and addiction are diseases of the mind, with serious physical, monetary and emotional impact on the user and everyone around them.

 

It's completely absurd and ridiculous for JS (in the past) and now you to make this stupid, idiotic and downright laughable comparison, which clearly illustrates that you have no ******* clue what you're on about.

 

Excuse me! Sorry for your brother, but he's not the only addict in the world. My former SO had a serious drug problem that seriously escalated within the 2 years that we were together. I tried everything and had to leave in the end. Last I heard he is still struggling.

 

I am sorry that YOU feel another type of addiction is harmless vs. your brother's addiction.

 

Maybe you should have a little look around this ole internet and see the pornography addiction wrecks families just as much and isolates its users.

 

Many of the SAs in my group refer to porn as the "crack cocaine" of sex addiction. In a lot of their stories it started there and graduated. There are members that have participated in self-destructive acts that have had legal implications and given them life-long and lethal STDs.

 

Have a look at In the Shadow of the Net.

 

Anything addictive will suck your life away, maybe in different ways. Porn is definitely addictive and pretending it is harmless is BS. Sure maybe 95% of users can get away with relatively little consequence, but 1 in 20 is a lot of people who are vulnerable to abuse it and let it run their lives.

 

I get that you aren't an addict (so you claim). But my main thing on here has always been that it isn't worth the risk of finding out. Better to try to build on a relationship then turn to an alternative for "harmless fun" that carries more risk then people realize.

 

Sorry that you are offended, but that doesn't change my stance. Nothing self-righteous about it. I have plenty of other flaws.

[dreamingoftigers]

Just to illustrate my point, earlier in this thread I posted an article which actually compared drug addiction and "porn" addiction. Drug addiction usually starts with a smaller offering, something to tip the user off and start them hooked.

 

Then, once they are stuck on a drug, their body will build up defenses and they will saturate themselves with it trying to get that first high feeling all over again.

 

Once saturated their drug of choice usually doesn't do it for them anymore. So they will move onto the next, usually something harder, to get them high.

 

There is absolutely zero evidence that guys who watch porn will change to a more extreme form of pornography in order to get their rocks off. That's true addiction. Switching because you saturate yourself with the chosen material to the point that it does nothing for you anymore.

 

There is no evidence. It's stated clearly in the article and everyone ignores it. But as long as you keep making assanine statements and comparisons, I will keep stating that it is ignorant and repulsive to make these assumptions and comparisons with no knowledge base.

 

Actually ALL of the literature I have read in regards to porn/SA says this. It says that usually the porn starts off as a minor indulgence and then folks start going to more extreme kinds of porn (sometimes even child porn but I have no idea why one would switch from adults to kids, really weird) and/or it starts taking up longer and longer time because it is harder to get that "high."

 

In my own porn usage (back in the day) I can totally relate to this because when I started just about any naked form would have done it for me, then it graduated to better looking bodies, spending more time and at the very end, extreme bdsm porn, people in public etc. etc.

 

I posted on craiglist for a dominant man and gangbangs. (yes i am ashamed of this). You may not be vulnerable to those kinds of craziness, I suspect that it isn't uncommon, but certainly not a majority. I do know that for both me and my H that the porn/sex addiction was definitely progressive and to site some examples:

 

Out of the Shadows

In the Shadow of the Net

Facing the Shadow

Hope and Freedom for Sexual Addicts and Their Partners

Your Sexually Addicted Spouse

[COLOR=#004b91]Untangling the Web: Sex, Porn, and Fantasy Obsession in the Internet Age [/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91]I actually checked and all of the above actually back up exactly what you said "doesn't happen" with porn addiction.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91]Sorry dude, it does and it sucks.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91]I also know that by posting this I am opening myself up to a lot of attacks I.e." you don't post up ads on craigslist because of porn, you post them up because you are a skank." blah blah blah[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91][/COLOR]

[COLOR=#004b91]The ads made me realize that obviously I had become a pretty screwed-up person, even though it took me another year to realize that and now I am in recovery, so save it. I chose to work on my issues and now I am sharing them to correct a misconception.[/COLOR]

[Jersey Shortie]

Hard evidence about the reality of the industry and it's treatment of women was something that was requested by a few participants in this thread. When presented with hard evidence, these same participants do everything in their power to ignore, talk over or belittle the evidence presented.

 

SweetJasmine provided quotes from actual pornstars and their experiences and it was ignored.

 

Taramere posted an extremely horrifying and disturbing account and it was belittled and demeaned. I guess if one worthless women gets abused and treated with little regard, that it is a very small price to pay for ultimately having enjoyable masturbation material. That seems to overide any treatment, depicitions and stereotypes made of women through porn.

 

And even if a woman doesn't go through the experiences that either SweetJasmine or Taramere showcased, how many men truly believe deep in their hearts that porn is doing a big great favor for both women and men? How many men can honestly say that they think porn treats women great and showcases women with strength and respect? How many men sincerely can understand why real women, every day women, are disturbed by how women in general are protrayed and treated through porn and the fact that there is SO much available and that many men are taking advantage of that availability by making it a reuglar part of their diet? These are not tricky or dumb questions.

 

The rational on why some of these points are not being appriopiately addressed falls under the account of "it doesn't happen that much/that's not the norm". I suspect it's more the *norm* then the industry lets on. And I am sure it doesn't always happen like that either. But lets at least be honest here and not try to paint porn like it treats women with great respect.

 

If we rational everything in life that is real, vivid and horrifying and justify it under it doesn't Iit doesn't happen *that much*".... well if we go by that rational, I guess anything under the sun is okay as long as it doesn't happen *that much*. At least "that much* as defined by their own ideals of what isn't or is too much on how to treat others.

 

Children and women are kidnapped for the sexual slave trade more then we want to admit. It isn't an every day occurrence but it happens. Is it okay for it to happen since it doesn't happen *that much*. To sit there and justify the atrocities of one industry on the account of it "doesn't happen that much" is extremely offensive to the people that mostly end up the victims of these "industries". And women are more likely to end up the viticms of the porn industry then men are. Because women are more likely to be the one subjected to harsher treatment, objectification and abuse at the hands of what pushes the industry. And what pushes the industry is to see crazier and crazier things and more beautiful girls that average men can "dream" want them.

 

If we were to define women through what porn tells us is true about women, women apparently are just empty vessels there to take any kind of treatment another gives out and she loves every little second of it! That's the fantasy. What does it say to all of us that many men, real men, men that are husbands and fathers; defend an industry that is built on the stereotyping and objectifation and belittlement of the female gender?

 

You know what it says?

 

It says women are disposable that soul purpose in life is to bring sexual release to all the wonderful and respectful men. If that means smacking her in the face, that's okay. If that means calling her names, again that's okay. *She* LOVES it right? All women want to be smacked around and called names by random nameless men because men are *just* that fabulous that any girl would be lucky to get a dick-smack in the face. If that means telling her what a worthless human being she is, that's fine. Because what matters is a man has masturbation material. Everything else is insurmountable.

 

These are the messages porn gives.

 

Lets not try to act like society is better for it's dependency on pornography.

[espec10001]

Hard evidence about the reality of the industry and it's treatment of women was something that was requested by a few participants in this thread. When presented with hard evidence, these same participants do everything in their power to ignore, talk over or belittle the evidence presented.

 

SweetJasmine provided quotes from actual pornstars and their experiences and it was ignored.

 

Taramere posted an extremely horrifying and disturbing account and it was belittled and demeaned. I guess if one worthless women gets abused and treated with little regard, that it is a very small price to pay for ultimately having enjoyable masturbation material. That seems to overide any treatment, depicitions and stereotypes made of women through porn.

 

And even if a woman doesn't go through the experiences that either SweetJasmine or Taramere showcased, how many men truly believe deep in their hearts that porn is doing a big great favor for both women and men? How many men can honestly say that they think porn treats women great and showcases women with strength and respect? How many men sincerely can understand why real women, every day women, are disturbed by how women in general are protrayed and treated through porn and the fact that there is SO much available and that many men are taking advantage of that availability by making it a reuglar part of their diet? These are not tricky or dumb questions.

 

The rational on why some of these points are not being appriopiately addressed falls under the account of "it doesn't happen that much/that's not the norm". I suspect it's more the *norm* then the industry lets on. And I am sure it doesn't always happen like that either. But lets at least be honest here and not try to paint porn like it treats women with great respect.

 

If we rational everything in life that is real, vivid and horrifying and justify it under it doesn't Iit doesn't happen *that much*".... well if we go by that rational, I guess anything under the sun is okay as long as it doesn't happen *that much*. At least "that much* as defined by their own ideals of what isn't or is too much on how to treat others.

 

Children and women are kidnapped for the sexual slave trade more then we want to admit. It isn't an every day occurrence but it happens. Is it okay for it to happen since it doesn't happen *that much*. To sit there and justify the atrocities of one industry on the account of it "doesn't happen that much" is extremely offensive to the people that mostly end up the victims of these "industries". And women are more likely to end up the viticms of the porn industry then men are. Because women are more likely to be the one subjected to harsher treatment, objectification and abuse at the hands of what pushes the industry. And what pushes the industry is to see crazier and crazier things and more beautiful girls that average men can "dream" want them.

 

If we were to define women through what porn tells us is true about women, women apparently are just empty vessels there to take any kind of treatment another gives out and she loves every little second of it! That's the fantasy. What does it say to all of us that many men, real men, men that are husbands and fathers; defend an industry that is built on the stereotyping and objectifation and belittlement of the female gender?

 

You know what it says?

 

It says women are disposable that soul purpose in life is to bring sexual release to all the wonderful and respectful men. If that means smacking her in the face, that's okay. If that means calling her names, again that's okay. *She* LOVES it right? All women want to be smacked around and called names by random nameless men because men are *just* that fabulous that any girl would be lucky to get a dick-smack in the face. If that means telling her what a worthless human being she is, that's fine. Because what matters is a man has masturbation material. Everything else is insurmountable.

 

These are the messages porn gives.

 

Lets not try to act like society is better for it's dependency on pornography.

 

It's ok JS. Like I said porn is a symptom of a societal disease, but our nation is healing, slowly. Yes, these things are open wounds, like porn, but we will be healed. But some bad things (greedy people) that get in the way of the healing need to be dealt with by certain people. But don't worry, everything will be alright!

[Jersey Shortie]

Oh come on. No one is forcing some girl online to do porn or get naked. The girls do it cause its FUN. That's what girls do, they really are bad and enjoy being bad, it's the thrill. Most girls I know the more you get to know them, the more you realize that girls get kicks out of doing things they shouldn't be doing cause its FUN.

 

 

Who said that these girls were being forced? I never understood this argument. Men aren't being forced to look at porn either. It shouldn't matter that these girls choose to do it when men who are fathers, brothers and husband CHOOSE to look and propergate the degradment of women in general. Are these girls who also choose to go into the business adding to their own degradment and the degradment of women? Yes. However, how many women actually go into porn compared to how many men LOOK and contribute to the growth of porn? A very small amount of women go into the industry compared to the amount of women that don't that are mothers and sisters and daughters. But plenty of men that are husbands, brothers and fathers CHOOSE to look at ,enjoy and lay profit to the industry.

 

It amazes me that you buy into the fantasy the industry protrays. Most girls get into porn because they don't have alot of other options and they want quick easy money and *they* just might also buy into the fantasy when they first go into the business. The average pornstar lasts 6 months-1 year. In that time frame, she is asked to do increasingly hardcore acts. After that is done, she is old news. Onto the next girl. Because what is important is that men get new girl after new girl. No girl grows up dreaming to do porn. And no father or husband dreams for his little girl to grow up and be in porn.

 

 

 

Your points are moot. No one is holding a gun to these girls heads to do porn. They have a choice and they choose to do it. They chose to enter the porn industry, I have no sympathy for them regardless of all the dangers and 'coercion' they endure once they are there. They are getting paid to be treated like a piece of meat, and if they don't understand that before signing up, then that's their fault.

 

Again, you continue to cling to the ideology that what is being debated is these girls choices. When that is not even anywhere close to the topic.

If you don't want to have sympathy for the women that choose to be in the industry, how about having sympathy for the women that don't, that husbands, and boyfriends and son's buy into the idealogy that it's okay to treat women as pieces of meat for their personal gratification. That it's okay to smack a woman in the face and call her four letter words. You don't care about the women that go into the business? Well okay, how about the images of how women are depicted that men LOVE and EAT up. What does that say?

[espec10001]

Who said that these girls were being forced? I never understood this argument. Men aren't being forced to look at porn either. It shouldn't matter that these girls choose to do it when men who are fathers, brothers and husband CHOOSE to look and propergate the degradment of women in general. Are these girls who also choose to go into the business adding to their own degradment and the degradment of women? Yes. However, how many women actually go into porn compared to how many men LOOK and contribute to the growth of porn? A very small amount of women go into the industry compared to the amount of women that don't that are mothers and sisters and daughters. But plenty of men that are husbands, brothers and fathers CHOOSE to look at ,enjoy and lay profit to the industry.

 

It amazes me that you buy into the fantasy the industry protrays. Most girls get into porn because they don't have alot of other options and they want quick easy money and *they* just might also buy into the fantasy when they first go into the business. The average pornstar lasts 6 months-1 year. In that time frame, she is asked to do increasingly hardcore acts. After that is done, she is old news. Onto the next girl. Because what is important is that men get new girl after new girl. No girl grows up dreaming to do porn. And no father or husband dreams for his little girl to grow up and be in porn.

 

 

 

 

 

Again, you continue to cling to the ideology that what is being debated is these girls choices. When that is not even anywhere close to the topic.

If you don't want to have sympathy for the women that choose to be in the industry, how about having sympathy for the women that don't, that husbands, and boyfriends and son's buy into the idealogy that it's okay to treat women as pieces of meat for their personal gratification. That it's okay to smack a woman in the face and call her four letter words. You don't care about the women that go into the business? Well okay, how about the images of how women are depicted that men LOVE and EAT up. What does that say?

 

JS, I said I had a change of heart. I can see where you are coming from. I was looking at the issue from only a limited perspective, one sided, but as I age I am learning that proper balance in discussion is needed and that both sides of an argument must be accepted before you come to a truth.

 

I see that it is not ok, that porn is no substitute for real women, and that there are real women behind the screens, they have feelings and are human beings who by life or by unfortunate circumstances ended up in this situation. It isn't ok to treat women like objects.

 

It is a problem in our society, the medium with which men and women communicate, namely the internet and technology, is not helping us or uniting us. It is dividing us. The media is responsible for all of it, it brainwashes us, both men and women equally, into believing a false reality that only serves to benefit the ones who push this crap on us.

[Jersey Shortie]

Sorry Espec..I missed that.

 

And I agree with you on tech/internet and that it affects both men AND women.

[Disillusioned]

I actually found an interesting blog on this. It dealt with men, virginity, and why they may struggle with women. I found it a rather interesting read, and the porn section really stuck out to me in particular. Maybe porn really isn't the culprit, but rather more importantly, it doesn't help either.

 

It centered around the question: "How would you be motivated to improve your skills with women, when you can achieve sexual gratification quickly and easily with the click of a mouse?"

 

One could see how that could potentially become a vicious cycle.

 

Maybe women just want men to fuel that sexual energy away from porn, and into improving their skills with them, chasing them, and wooing them?

 

Anyway here's the blog:

 

http://themodernsavage.com/2008/09/30/the-dilemmas-of-male-virgins/

 

What do you think?

 

I didn't read the blog, but I think of porn as totally useless... no, worse than that, a total waste of paper or bandwidth.

 

I was never turned on by run-of-the-mill porn. The models all seem to have the same disgustingly huge boobs and strung-out-on-PCP looks on their faces. Silicone sisters high on dope just don't do much for me...

 

If I had a chance to create my own porn, I bet not many other men would get excited over the waif-like giantesses who are MY ideal of feminine beauty.

[Taramere]

Note. Extreme porn. And, that this is only one select facet of the porn industry, which cannot overall be judged by the actions of one scum bag producer.

 

Max Hardcore fans aren't a tiny fraction of the porn watching population. His work has frequently been in the top 20 Adult movie charts.

 

Yes he seems to be a scumbag - but one who has been in the industry for a long time, and is evidently going to know that industry pretty well. Almost certainly he would tone down his "persuasion techniques" in front of a documentary crew...because although he's a sh*t who prides himself on "pushing the envelope" he's also a businessman who isn't going to want to take the risk of a documentary crew reporting him to the authorities for rape or sexual assault.

 

So what would he tone his persuasion techniques down to? I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that in front of a documentary crew he'd tone his approach down to the approach he regards as being standard practice within the industry. Standard practice for, that is, dealing with actresses who are reluctant to do certain scenes. Standard practice generally being that which is commonly employed within an industry.

 

Once a crew is hired and on set, the meter is ticking. An actress refusing to do a scene and having to be replaced is going to cause a lot of extra expense and hassle. If the approach Max Hardcore employed in that documentary isn't standard industry practice for "persuading" actresses who are bottling out of doing certain sex acts for the camera, what is the standard industry practice?

[Ruby Slippers]

No one would ever actually answer the question because, to be quite honest, it's a REALLY stupid question.

Why is it a stupid question?

 

Because you don't want to think about your sister or cousin or daughter getting pounded and degraded by random men for other random men's viewing pleasure, or something else?

[Ruby Slippers]

I've had a change of heart.

Wow. Thank you for considering another point of view, rather than marching off to your room with shiny toys in hand. Clearly, you are an exceptional guy.

[Jersey Shortie]

Max Hardcore fans aren't a tiny fraction of the porn watching population. His work has frequently been in the top 20 Adult movie charts.

 

 

Considering what you described, that is insane and depressing.

Edited May 7, 2010 by Jersey Shortie

[espec10001]

Wow. Thank you for considering another point of view, rather than marching off to your room with shiny toys in hand. Clearly, you are an exceptional guy.

 

I hope that someday we can return to a more natural mode of living and society, one in which men and women learn to work together and recognize similarities rather than differences. Attacking a problem purely with logic or attacking the problem purely with emotion isn't the solution. It's a combination of these, thus is why my former view is incorrect. I have no problem admitting I am wrong, when in fact, I am wrong.

 

It's just so much damn war. War on this, war on that, war between the sexes. I've just had enough of all this war! We CAN have peace, and no need or desire for pornography, we must heal our inner selves first.

 

No more war! It's just creating more problems and not offering any solutions. Are there still women out there that say yes to men who say no?

[Jersey Shortie]

I'm not sure I understand your last question Espec...but i totally agree with what you are saying in most of that post.

[Ruby Slippers]

Are there still women out there that say yes to men who say no?

Well, I do.

 

I have strong evidence that the guy's porn use had a negative effect on the sex I had with my last two partners, and, duh, that was a major turnoff for me. No, it's not the end of the world, but why would I want to have OK, diluted sex when I can have great, full-strength sex?

 

I'm not at all surprised that men's porn habits often affect their sexual performance for the worse. In fact, I'd be amazed if they didn't. It seems to me that in the very least, it numbs them to the excitement of sex with a real partner, and worse, makes them mediocre lovers who are out of touch with what a woman really wants in bed.

 

If I eat hamburgers and fries every day, with the fast fix of all the salt and fat, I'm going to numb myself to the amazing flavors of a natural, healthy, home-cooked meal of vegetables, whole grains, and low-fat protein -- all things that are good for you and support good health.

[espec10001]

I'm not sure I understand your last question Espec...but i totally agree with what you are saying in most of that post.

 

What I'm saying goes deep. These boxes, these computers, televisions, cell phones, CAN be used to serve us people to make our lives easier and give us more freedom to do the things we wish.

 

But I am afraid that in many instances we have become servants to the machine. The machine is very big and strong, it feeds off of war and division, just like we witness in this forum. It feeds off of labels, calling people this or that like "Oh that girl she's a slut, shes a whore, she's a Republican, she's this, she's that", but if you stop for a moment, think to yourself "Who am I to judge?" "I don't know her." "Why am I applying labels to this person, when none of it truly represents who they are?"

 

I believe this war machine, the medium in which men and women communicate, is a wall that separates us from our true selves. It is the third party, the one who starts all these wars we fight. It keeps itself alive through spreading fear among people, and thus they are less likely to organize for a common cause. Pornography is warfare

 

I just don't want any children that I someday might have to be born slaves. I want them to be free of the war machine and not be chewed up and spit out. Even though I am but one man among billions, I can do my part to spread peace.

 

That's why I said men who say NO to war machine would the women say yes it's an old revolutionary quote from the 60's I think.

[espec10001]

Well, I do.

 

I have strong evidence that the guy's porn use had a negative effect on the sex I had with my last two partners, and, duh, that was a major turnoff for me. No, it's not the end of the world, but why would I want to have OK, diluted sex when I can have great, full-strength sex?

 

I'm not at all surprised that men's porn habits often affect their sexual performance for the worse. In fact, I'd be amazed if they didn't. It seems to me that in the very least, it numbs them to the excitement of sex with a real partner, and worse, makes them mediocre lovers who are out of touch with what a woman really wants in bed.

 

If I eat hamburgers and fries every day, with the fast fix of all the salt and fat, I'm going to numb myself to the amazing flavors of a natural, healthy, home-cooked meal of vegetables, whole grains, and low-fat protein -- all things that are good for you and support good health.

 

You are right. These are all symptoms of a sick society, one that has deviated a little too far from nature. But what can we, both men and women, do to solve this problem?

 

I found the answer in the wind one day, out in the open, the wind it whispers peace. This wind, this spirit, is for man and woman alike. The future can be shaped any way we want it to, we just have to believe in ourselves.

[RobM]

I found the answer in the wind one day, out in the open, the wind it whispers peace. This wind, this spirit, is for man and woman alike. The future can be shaped any way we want it to, we just have to believe in ourselves.

 

I thought the wind whispers mary?