For OW from MM

[delirious]

OMG thank you TS for posting this. I am an OW. It really helps me understand the mentality of my MM, he could have said exactly what you have written. I could have said you were him!! I have said those things that your OW has said. He has been married since 20 years for as long as you. He also does not know how to treat women, and I make allowances for that. I think also, he too has not got the balls to change his life. I was saying also to him that if he had come out of prison after that long, he would probably want to go straight back in for a bit haha. He even said he was prepared to be miserable in his marriage and just carry on!! Although his life is never going to be the same, he is never going to go back to how it was, after me. It is so sad that when you meet someone, who is making you feel so alive, you have to dither. Okay it is stressful making changes but as I have said to MM, NOTHING is ever achieved without a bit of stress. Nothing stays the same forever. You will NEVER be happy because you let life happen to you, instead of making it happen. I just wish he had the balls now that he had when he pursued me. You will get old and say IF only....... and unfortunately so will your OW.

Edited May 1, 2010 by delirious
clarity

[TroubledSoul1]

"I don't get why you think your situation is so special and so complicated. It's that way because you CHOOSE to make it that way.

 

Here's what I see happening here: once the sting of the OW dumping you fades away, you'll go back to your lazy complacent life, bitter and unhappy, and blaming everyone but yourself for your unhappiness. I REALLY hope I'm proven wrong."

 

It's not that I think my situation is so special. Its just not something I ever expected to change until I met OW.

 

I do think sometimes that your right. I will just go back to the way my life was and just accept that it is what it is.

 

And I do wish my wife would just file for divorce or just have someone else make the hard decisions. Lame I know. OW told me she's not going to file- and if she did OW doesn't want me "by default". OW said why should she file- she has everything the way she wants it AND doesn't have to "put out". OW has said I have enabled wife for years and to keep expecting her to change after I talk to her about how unhappy I am about the one thing that's not there in the marriage (romance, compatibility, friendship etc.) is completely ridiculous of me. But I do keep waiting for my wife to change.

[TroubledSoul1]

I can understand your trouble. You have a lot of history, etc. invested.

Only you can decide what you want out of life.

Grab the bull by the horns. Whatever decision you make - make the best of it!

And - not deciding is an action. I truly believe you should only leave for you and you alone though .... no one else.

 

Gosh- I can't believe all of you.

You are SO right about so many things.

OW said the SAME exact thing.

She said everyday that goes by that I don't make changes means I have made a choice. Everynight I go to sleep in the same bed with my wife (staying on our own sides) I have MADE A CHOICE to stay.

But not doing anything I HAVE MADE the choice to not doing anything.

 

I need air. I feel like I can't breathe anymore.

Going to go do some yardwark or wash the cars.

[TroubledSoul1]

OMG thank you TS for posting this. I am an OW. It really helps me understand the mentality of my MM, he could have said exactly what you have written. I could have said you were him!! I have said those things that your OW has said. He has been married since 20 years for as long as you. He also does not know how to treat women, and I make allowances for that. I think also, he too has not got the balls to change his life. I was saying also to him that if he had come out of prison after that long, he would probably want to go straight back in for a bit haha. He even said he was prepared to be miserable in his marriage and just carry on!! Although his life is never going to be the same, he is never going to go back to how it was, after me. It is so sad that when you meet someone, who is making you feel so alive, you have to dither. Okay it is stressful making changes but as I have said to MM, NOTHING is ever achieved without a bit of stress. Nothing stays the same forever. You will NEVER be happy because you let life happen to you, instead of making it happen. I just wish he had the balls now that he had when he pursued me. You will get old and say IF only....... and unfortunately so will your OW.

 

Ok- one more post for now.

Yep- my life will never be the same.

And she also asked me if anything I have done in my whole life that I have achieved that was successful was easy, without stress, without struggle? I said no. So why should this be any different.

 

Let me ask you as the OW- are you in NC? Have you walked away with the hopes that he'll change and come back to you? Would you take him back after all that he's put you through? She once told me talking to me sometimes is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe she's right. Maybe I feel like I don't deserve her. Sometimes I don't even know what she sees or saw in me.

[Just a stone's throw]

Waiting for your wife to change? Why should she? Seriously it's the law of physics. An object in motion stays in motion until an object of greater strength/power changes it's direction. (or something like that, been a long time since physics but you get the point). There is nothing, no force getting in your wife's way to make her want to change directions. What on earth would prompt her to want to change?

 

Tell her about the A.... that may be the force....

 

Tell her you're leaving.... that may be the force....

 

Do something other than being extremely complacent (I changed that from lame as I don't want to sound too harsh but "lame" was what I first typed).

 

As for laundry and cooking - you can hire someone to do that, you can hire a service to provide your meals. That's not a necessity.

 

Until you want to start doing things unselfishly for another person such as your W or your fOW such as try new underware just for her because it's something SHE wants something SHE is asking you to do then you are just a selfish individual who deserves exactly what you have and will continue to have. You have to GIVE to GET......

[TroubledSoul1]

Waiting for your wife to change? Why should she? Seriously it's the law of physics. An object in motion stays in motion until an object of greater strength/power changes it's direction. (or something like that, been a long time since physics but you get the point). There is nothing, no force getting in your wife's way to make her want to change directions. What on earth would prompt her to want to change?

 

Tell her about the A.... that may be the force....

 

Tell her you're leaving.... that may be the force....

 

Do something other than being extremely complacent (I changed that from lame as I don't want to sound too harsh but "lame" was what I first typed).

 

As for laundry and cooking - you can hire someone to do that, you can hire a service to provide your meals. That's not a necessity.

 

Until you want to start doing things unselfishly for another person such as your W or your fOW such as try new underware just for her because it's something SHE wants something SHE is asking you to do then you are just a selfish individual who deserves exactly what you have and will continue to have. You have to GIVE to GET......

 

Yep- OW has told me I'm selfish too....and I guess I am..

 

One last thought- I guess I feel that if my wife sees nothing worthwhile in me after spending almost 40 decades with me then why would anyone else? I have given for almost 40 years to her- AND WHAT HAVE I REALLY GOTTEN IN RETURN????

So why would giving to anyone else get me anything?

[TroubledSoul1]

Waiting for your wife to change? Why should she? Seriously it's the law of physics. An object in motion stays in motion until an object of greater strength/power changes it's direction. (or something like that, been a long time since physics but you get the point). There is nothing, no force getting in your wife's way to make her want to change directions. What on earth would prompt her to want to change?

 

Tell her about the A.... that may be the force....

 

Tell her you're leaving.... that may be the force....

 

Do something other than being extremely complacent (I changed that from lame as I don't want to sound too harsh but "lame" was what I first typed).

 

As for laundry and cooking - you can hire someone to do that, you can hire a service to provide your meals. That's not a necessity.

 

Until you want to start doing things unselfishly for another person such as your W or your fOW such as try new underware just for her because it's something SHE wants something SHE is asking you to do then you are just a selfish individual who deserves exactly what you have and will continue to have. You have to GIVE to GET......

 

All right- one more thought.

OW at one point said the same thing-

Actually what she said was "Are you kidding me? Are you f'in nuts? Your staying because she makes you 1-2 meals a week and washes your socks and underwear?"

I tried to explain it was more than that- it was the history...but she wasn't buying......

 

Gosh I miss her. we'd probably be planting flowers together today if things were different....or playing golf....

[WalkInThePark]

I haven't given a crap in SO long about the little things that meant so much to fOW because my efforts were not appreciated for SO many years by my wife that I guess that I just think they really don't matter. Do I really want to start all over again? Do I really want to have to work so hard again only to take the chance that I could possibly end up alone or end up exactly where I am now but just with another person? I know your all going to tell me its up to me and if I put the effort in I can make sure (to some degree) that I do things differently.

 

I guess I'm pissed off that all the hard work I have done already basically counts for nothing.

 

TroubledSoul, you are SO passive-agressive. You are sulking and pouting like a three year old for who things don't go the way he wants them to go. But that should not surprise us. Because which man with a bit of selfrespect would stay so long in the kind of marriage you have? I think you don't want to be happy. And guess what? If you don't want to be happy, you won't be happy.

If you love someone, you give love and you don't calculate whether it will lead to something or not.

Yes, you might start a relationship with the OW and you have no guarantee that this relationship will last. But you know what? Whether that relationship will last, will depend on how you treat the OW. It will depend on whether you like to do some efforts for her. If she likes certain underwear better, why not try it. You should be flattered that this younger woman wants you to look good or sexy.

BTW, has your wife not become totally indifferent to you because you never took her wishes into account?

 

If being certain is so important for you, then I suggest you stay with your wife. You will then now with certainty how the next 30 years of your life will look. It's your call.

[delirious]

Ok- one more post for now.

Yep- my life will never be the same.

And she also asked me if anything I have done in my whole life that I have achieved that was successful was easy, without stress, without struggle? I said no. So why should this be any different.

 

Let me ask you as the OW- are you in NC? Have you walked away with the hopes that he'll change and come back to you? Would you take him back after all that he's put you through? She once told me talking to me sometimes is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe she's right. Maybe I feel like I don't deserve her. Sometimes I don't even know what she sees or saw in me.

 

We are in low contact, trying to be just friends after nearly two years. I have not NC'd him YET. So he does not know what that feels like. I have taken him back after several breaks NC that he instigated because I am trying to understand what he is going through. But I am weak and stupid, I should cut him out of my life. The whole thing has been making us both ill.

 

The brick wall business sounds just like him, he is so used to just walking away from his W when there is a problem, that is how he deals with any disputes. He has been used to not having to make any major decisions like you for many years that the stress and excitement of being with me secretly made him feel like he was having a heart attack. He has admitted to feeling incapable. Most of the time he just carries on without thinking about things. He needs IC.

[White Flower]

'What 5 things would you most miss about your wife or your marriage if you were to divorce? (without OW in the picture... divorcing cos your marriage is as dysfunctional as you say it is.)"

 

So I have been pondering this for days....

I am going to tell you how I honestly feel and I am sure I am going to get ripped a new *********, but sorry this is all I can come up with. I know full well how stupid these are going to sound but this is the truth:

 

1. Predictibility of knowing what to expect from someone I'm living with on a day to day basis

So you like it easy?

 

2. Knowing that I have someone (Something is better than nothing?)

So you like it easy?

3. The history of being with the same person for a huge part of my life.

Are you sentimental or just proud? I could understand the sentimental, especially if the R worked, but the proud is just silly. You can start over and have the same thing and actually have it work.

4. Predictibility of knowing what's expected of me.

So get to know your future partner and then you'll have predictablility all over again. Simple. I think what your problem is FEAR of CHANGE. But you have CHOICES in how you alter your future, it's called COMPROMISE.

5. I don't do laundry- never have. She washes - I fold & put away. I don't cook- never have. She maybe makes 1-2 meals a week and I get something from a deli or pizza the other nights.

You're crying over having to cook when she only cooks twice per week anyway? Wow. So you add two more nights of sandwiches and pizzas, big deal.

Brightmoon- I see your question as a huge exercise for me and can't tell you how much thought I have put into really thinking about those 5 things. Right now this is all I can come up with. They are lame excuses in that I could always learn how to cook something I suppose and figure how the washer works- but ultimately do I really want to?

As easy as it is I'm COUNTING on you to really want to. Damn! I've SEEN my MM do the laundry at his house, and I've only been in it twice!!!

I go through these "attitudes" in my head - back and forth all the time. I shouldn't have to do these things- I feel sometimes like I paid my dues in life already to another women and if I end up being with someone else I am going to have to start all over again from scratch.

 

I already paid my dues in sense that over the years I bought her a couple of cars, did the jewelry thing and I feel like I'm done with that. I really don't want to have to do all that again.

Okay, you've paid your dues. I guess that you didn't feel any joy the first time around in giving these gifts to your W. It sounds as though you begrudgingly gave her a ring and a couple of cars which is quite sad. If I knew my H felt this way I wouldn't want those things TS, I just wouldn't. I'd want to know that he carried a measure of joy in his heart while making those purchases. I would hope that in the future you would look forward with giddyness in making purchases like that for your future lover.

But I remember the OW discussing with me from time to time that my thought process and behavior was unacceptable regarding several issues.

She sounds pretty smart.

Let me expand:

1) I would take her critisicm and storm off. She would call and then explain to me that she had a point of view and deserved the respect of my listening to her communicate - and that no matter what the issue is I needed to express how I felt to her about it so we could discuss it, resolve it and move on. I remember one particular incident as an example:

We agreed to meet for coffee after we both we done working out at the gym. I did my workout and she did what she had to do and then she was going to tan. Well I couldn't find her when I was done so I figured she blew me off so I left. 10 minutes later she called furious with asking where I was. I told her I couldn't find so I figured she'd left. She was pretty pissed and told me I was rude and disrespectful. She said, maybe I was in the locker room, or tanning, but you just upped and left? She told me I that was inappropriate behavior and a huge turn off. She couldn't understand why I should have waited for at least 10-15 minutes at our cars in the parking lot. She went on to say this is not how you treat someone and said what if I was a guy friend do you think he would put up with your crap?

If you saw her car in the parking lot TS you knew she didn't blow you off. He can't skirt around this one. Further, if you don't see the car, then look for the damn car. Or just whip out your cell phone and give her a call! I kept my cell phone on a chair next to the bed when I used to tan. Never missed a call while tanning or on a treadmill or on the weight machines. You have no excuse.

See I'm so conditioned to react however I feel at that moment instead of thinking about anything or anyone else. It didn't occur to me that I had hurt her feelings but not commumicating with her at all. She keep saying even if you had to leave or didn't want to wait I could have called her cell phone and left a message saying I couldn't wait but would talk to her later and looked for her and couldn't find her.

She is right on all levels.

I guess on some level I just wanted her to put up with to how I behave. This is how I am so take it or leave it. Maybe this was my way of pushing so she'd do the dirty work of getting so fed up with me she'd walk away because I don't have the balls to.

TS, it is every young man's desire to be accepted for who they are. I hear this from my nephew and my son all the time, it is a basic need in a man. However, all young men mature and need to figure out how the woman in his life thinks and it is a basic need for a woman to be cared for which includes communication. There is a balance and you have to step up to the mature plate and find that balance. If you read Men are from Mars, the basic book (Dr. Gray has so many books now) you'll understand these key differences in the way men and women think. You'll have so many 'aha' moments that you'll either go back and get OW or even fix your M. It will be a freeing experience for you. Spend the $10 on this book.

I also remember her telling me on multiple occasions if I do ever get divorced and start dating again (not with her specifically) that I be hard pressed to find someone who would put up with my crap and lack of communication skills. She is of the mindset that if there's a problem it needs to be discussed immediately and not be allowed to fester. She likes to address everything right away and put it to rest. I like to just walk away from whatever the problem is and come back to it days later and continue thinking that a cool off time is needed.

Dr. Gray would call this action going into your cave. Women need to talk things through in order to feel ok while men need to sit and think about it. If there is no way to fix it, the man will give up and come out of his cave, emerged with a free soul knowing there was nothing he could do to fix the problem. But as a man ages, he learns through communication that some things CAN actually be fixed. It's called compromise.

She has blatantly told me that this is probably one of the huge problems in my marriage and she could see how my wife feels because she said I'm sick of your behavior and I've only known you for a short while and that she said "I can't imagine what its like to have to deal with this for years on end", she also said "no wonder your wife shows you no affection- she's turned off".

She is SO right!!! Both your OW AND your W are suffering from your stubbornness and pride.

I heard her what she was saying, but now that I think about it, I just refused to actually think maybe she was onto something.

I have hope for you here...

But I don't care. I refused to think I was wrong and until my wife makes an effort I'm not budging.

but I lost it here! Why should your W or anyone for that matter budge? You refuse to communicate which is at the very core of a successful R. TS, you're so smart. You listen and remember every detail of what these women say to you but you REFUSE to make any compromises. How can any of your Rs be successful when you resist change so much, including change within yourself?

I guess I am in a bad mood today because I feel particularily pissed off. I have tried to talk to my wife- many many times and she doesn't listen. She just doesn't listen to me- so why should I make any effort anymore.

Because she doesn't believe you'll really hear her side. OW has told you this already. (See bolded part above).

 

OW also told me one time, half-jokingly, I need to be retrained on how to treat women. She said I haven't had to do any real "work" in a relationship for so long that I don't know any better.

She's right, and I find it amazing that she fell in love with you. I'm sure you have many other fine traits but the lack of listening, communicating, and most importantly making the effort to compromise are biggies for a woman to feel loved in a R.

I get exhausted thinking about all this crap. It boils to me being lazy I think.

Here is where you make me proud. You have thought this through, mulled it over, and DEFINED what your problem is. Now, what are you going to do about it???

Do I really want to make such a drastic change in my life and go through the bull$hit of a divorce to only have to start all over? I mean I know where I stand now, I know what to expect and I know what's expected of me. Its not so terrible- there's just that one element of romance that's missing. Maybe I should just be grateful for what I have and call it a day.

TS, you've come THIS far, why quit now? Why is gathering all your tax papers and bank statements easy when you want a loan or to refinance but somehow the most difficult thing in the world when you want those same documents for a D lawyer? Why is it so easy to pack your bags for a vacation but so hard when you want to move out? Why come so far as to do all this productive thinking only to stop right here and give up?

 

You're almost at the finish line babe, don't stop now! I'm rootin' for ya!!!

[White Flower]

You're almost at the finish line babe, don't stop now! I'm rootin' for ya!!!

At least let one of the women in your life benefit from all this work TS! Start with the book.

[TroubledSoul1]

We are in low contact, trying to be just friends after nearly two years. I have not NC'd him YET. So he does not know what that feels like. I have taken him back after several breaks NC that he instigated because I am trying to understand what he is going through. But I am weak and stupid, I should cut him out of my life. The whole thing has been making us both ill.

 

The brick wall business sounds just like him, he is so used to just walking away from his W when there is a problem, that is how he deals with any disputes. He has been used to not having to make any major decisions like you for many years that the stress and excitement of being with me secretly made him feel like he was having a heart attack. He has admitted to feeling incapable. Most of the time he just carries on without thinking about things. He needs IC.

 

 

Yes- me too. Heart pounding like I was going to explode.

Oh boy......

[TroubledSoul1]

So you like it easy?

 

So you like it easy?

 

Are you sentimental or just proud? I could understand the sentimental, especially if the R worked, but the proud is just silly. You can start over and have the same thing and actually have it work.

 

So get to know your future partner and then you'll have predictablility all over again. Simple. I think what your problem is FEAR of CHANGE. But you have CHOICES in how you alter your future, it's called COMPROMISE.

 

You're crying over having to cook when she only cooks twice per week anyway? Wow. So you add two more nights of sandwiches and pizzas, big deal.

As easy as it is I'm COUNTING on you to really want to. Damn! I've SEEN my MM do the laundry at his house, and I've only been in it twice!!!

Okay, you've paid your dues. I guess that you didn't feel any joy the first time around in giving these gifts to your W. It sounds as though you begrudgingly gave her a ring and a couple of cars which is quite sad. If I knew my H felt this way I wouldn't want those things TS, I just wouldn't. I'd want to know that he carried a measure of joy in his heart while making those purchases. I would hope that in the future you would look forward with giddyness in making purchases like that for your future lover.

She sounds pretty smart.

 

If you saw her car in the parking lot TS you knew she didn't blow you off. He can't skirt around this one. Further, if you don't see the car, then look for the damn car. Or just whip out your cell phone and give her a call! I kept my cell phone on a chair next to the bed when I used to tan. Never missed a call while tanning or on a treadmill or on the weight machines. You have no excuse.

 

She is right on all levels.

 

TS, it is every young man's desire to be accepted for who they are. I hear this from my nephew and my son all the time, it is a basic need in a man. However, all young men mature and need to figure out how the woman in his life thinks and it is a basic need for a woman to be cared for which includes communication. There is a balance and you have to step up to the mature plate and find that balance. If you read Men are from Mars, the basic book (Dr. Gray has so many books now) you'll understand these key differences in the way men and women think. You'll have so many 'aha' moments that you'll either go back and get OW or even fix your M. It will be a freeing experience for you. Spend the $10 on this book.

 

Dr. Gray would call this action going into your cave. Women need to talk things through in order to feel ok while men need to sit and think about it. If there is no way to fix it, the man will give up and come out of his cave, emerged with a free soul knowing there was nothing he could do to fix the problem. But as a man ages, he learns through communication that some things CAN actually be fixed. It's called compromise.

She is SO right!!! Both your OW AND your W are suffering from your stubbornness and pride.

I have hope for you here...

but I lost it here! Why should your W or anyone for that matter budge? You refuse to communicate which is at the very core of a successful R. TS, you're so smart. You listen and remember every detail of what these women say to you but you REFUSE to make any compromises. How can any of your Rs be successful when you resist change so much, including change within yourself?

Because she doesn't believe you'll really hear her side. OW has told you this already. (See bolded part above).

 

She's right, and I find it amazing that she fell in love with you. I'm sure you have many other fine traits but the lack of listening, communicating, and most importantly making the effort to compromise are biggies for a woman to feel loved in a R.

 

Here is where you make me proud. You have thought this through, mulled it over, and DEFINED what your problem is. Now, what are you going to do about it???

 

TS, you've come THIS far, why quit now? Why is gathering all your tax papers and bank statements easy when you want a loan or to refinance but somehow the most difficult thing in the world when you want those same documents for a D lawyer? Why is it so easy to pack your bags for a vacation but so hard when you want to move out? Why come so far as to do all this productive thinking only to stop right here and give up?

 

You're almost at the finish line babe, don't stop now! I'm rootin' for ya!!!

 

Right on with all points. When I first met her I listened, was attentive, engaging, helpful, loved to talk to her- and would tell her how the wife never ever haved talked like she and I did. And I mean NEVER- I think I talked more in 9 months with OW then I did in all the years I am married. I always told her that I loved that she had an opinion about things. She always told me that she was able to open her heart to me because she trusted me, felt safe with me and comfortable with me and that I "allowed" her to just be her. I think she may have had relationships over the years where she couldn't be herself or if she was she never felt good enough, or something like that. And she always said she loved how I took care of her. Bringing out the trash, changing light bulbs, bringing her chocolate, flowers from the garden, stuff like that. See I do all that and more at my house but don't even so much as a thank you. Its just "the bulbs out upstairs" that's what I get here.

 

Have to run some errands and go see my mother.

 

Thanks for all your responses-

**OH- and you also 2long...thanks for putting up with me.

I know I have decisions to make. Hard ones. I know I am going to have to make the move. Counselor was on vacation last week so I have my next appointment next week.

 

and someone asked me why i don't sit my wife down and ask her what she wants- well i have. she insists she wants to stay married and loves me. this is in the kitchen or dining room and while I think she sounds sincere I don't know. She doesn't talk to me. I told her things had to change this morning, and asked her if she heard me. She said yes. i said do you want to talk about this now? she said no- I said fine and left to meet my friends to play golf.

[hopeless4u]

Ok- one more post for now.

Yep- my life will never be the same.

And she also asked me if anything I have done in my whole life that I have achieved that was successful was easy, without stress, without struggle? I said no. So why should this be any different.

 

Let me ask you as the OW- are you in NC? Have you walked away with the hopes that he'll change and come back to you? Would you take him back after all that he's put you through? She once told me talking to me sometimes is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe she's right. Maybe I feel like I don't deserve her. Sometimes I don't even know what she sees or saw in me.

WOW, the more I read the more you could be my xMM, except that his W does love him and part of his problem was hurting her but what you say about change and the fact that you could be in the same situation in 20yrs but with someone else is exactly what he said to me.

I have said to him all that your xMW has said to you too.

 

In answer to your question of taking him back, at the moment probably but the longer he takes to make a decision and each time he does something else that hurts me to protect himself I get stronger and loose a bit more respect for him.

[White Flower]

Ok- one more post for now.

Yep- my life will never be the same.

And she also asked me if anything I have done in my whole life that I have achieved that was successful was easy, without stress, without struggle? I said no. So why should this be any different.

 

Let me ask you as the OW- are you in NC? Have you walked away with the hopes that he'll change and come back to you? Would you take him back after all that he's put you through? She once told me talking to me sometimes is like talking to a brick wall. Maybe she's right. Maybe I feel like I don't deserve her. Sometimes I don't even know what she sees or saw in me.

If the love was really deep and real then she will take you back. But will it be just an A? If she isn't going to file, does she want you as an AP only?

[White Flower]

Right on with all points. When I first met her I listened, was attentive, engaging, helpful, loved to talk to her- and would tell her how the wife never ever haved talked like she and I did. And I mean NEVER- I think I talked more in 9 months with OW then I did in all the years I am married. I always told her that I loved that she had an opinion about things. She always told me that she was able to open her heart to me because she trusted me, felt safe with me and comfortable with me and that I "allowed" her to just be her. I think she may have had relationships over the years where she couldn't be herself or if she was she never felt good enough, or something like that. And she always said she loved how I took care of her. Bringing out the trash, changing light bulbs, bringing her chocolate, flowers from the garden, stuff like that. See I do all that and more at my house but don't even so much as a thank you. Its just "the bulbs out upstairs" that's what I get here.

 

Have to run some errands and go see my mother.

 

Thanks for all your responses-

**OH- and you also 2long...thanks for putting up with me.

I know I have decisions to make. Hard ones. I know I am going to have to make the move. Counselor was on vacation last week so I have my next appointment next week.

 

and someone asked me why i don't sit my wife down and ask her what she wants- well i have. she insists she wants to stay married and loves me. this is in the kitchen or dining room and while I think she sounds sincere I don't know. She doesn't talk to me. I told her things had to change this morning, and asked her if she heard me. She said yes. i said do you want to talk about this now? she said no- I said fine and left to meet my friends to play golf.

The bolded part tells me that together you both just had such harmony. How did that change? Did this new discovery scare you? Were you afraid that it couldn't be maintained? Did you go back to your cave and shut down? You need to figure these things out in order to move forward.

[Got it]

Trouble - I have been a MOW. I understand the cross roads. To be simplistic, once I engaged in an affair I realized that my marriage was done. I still loved and respected my exhusband and so knew he needed the ability to find someone that loved him like he should be. It was beneath him to be my security blanket because I might be afraid of the unknown, change, etc. I recognized those two fears would not kill me and that change can be good. But that I was going to be authentic to myself and my needs and no longer accept less. We had a great friendship in our marriage but I knew I needed more than that. I had to own my decisions and set my husband free.

 

My MM was married for a year before dday. From before the beginning he was suppose to be leaving. It was about the kids, finances, etc. We ended up with a dday and he did end up leaving. He is still working throuhg their mess and she is not accepting it. A lot is tied to their lack of communication and disconnected. Whereas the disconnect in my marriage allowed an easier split. In his, it meant a change to everything she expected and knew and was not a decision she wanted down. She expected to remain a SAHM, to be taken care of, to have him handle most things. So it has been much harder in her case.

 

Whatever you do, you need to stay in therapy and figure out what you need in life. What decisions need to be made so you can lead an authentic life? As others have said, life is short, much too short for regrets. What can you do to minimize your regrets?

[White Flower]

Trouble - I have been a MOW. I understand the cross roads. To be simplistic, once I engaged in an affair I realized that my marriage was done. I still loved and respected my exhusband and so knew he needed the ability to find someone that loved him like he should be. It was beneath him to be my security blanket because I might be afraid of the unknown, change, etc. I recognized those two fears would not kill me and that change can be good. But that I was going to be authentic to myself and my needs and no longer accept less. We had a great friendship in our marriage but I knew I needed more than that. I had to own my decisions and set my husband free.

 

My MM was married for a year before dday. From before the beginning he was suppose to be leaving. It was about the kids, finances, etc. We ended up with a dday and he did end up leaving. He is still working throuhg their mess and she is not accepting it. A lot is tied to their lack of communication and disconnected. Whereas the disconnect in my marriage allowed an easier split. In his, it meant a change to everything she expected and knew and was not a decision she wanted down. She expected to remain a SAHM, to be taken care of, to have him handle most things. So it has been much harder in her case.

 

Whatever you do, you need to stay in therapy and figure out what you need in life. What decisions need to be made so you can lead an authentic life? As others have said, life is short, much too short for regrets. What can you do to minimize your regrets?

I could have written the same post except that my exH was not my best friend nor was he friendly during the D process. Heck, he isn't even friendly now! I'd still do it all over again because the freedom I have now allows me to create my own happiness.

 

TS, how would your W feel if she knew the only reason you stayed was because you feared change, paid your dues (ring and cars), and feared learning how to cook. I'm pretty sure she would feel undervalued.

[TroubledSoul1]

Again, you'll never know what your W is capable of (meaning, what kind of partner she can be) as long as you are lying 2 her about her own life.

 

Your affair is exciting because it's new. You're able 2 talk 2 each other precisely because you have no his2ry 2gether and you've not let your relationship get in2 a rut. Yet.

 

If you do end up 2gether, though, you'll both have 2 deal with the time when the infa2ation wears off and you're living day-2-day life, with chores, bills, frustrations when they come. And on top of that, if/when the going gets tough, you'll always know that the other could simply replace you without your knowledge.

 

Regarding your decision, then: It's like Dr Phil is fond of saying, "before you can start another relationship, you need 2 finish this one first."

 

best,

-ol' 2long

 

1) At this point I do think its necessary to tell my wife about the affair. OW used to ask me about wife's response after I attempted to discuss things with her and if my wife asked if I was having an affair. My wife has never asked, BUT if she did I would tell her the truth, and not lie to her. I know already you going to say that my not telling her is the same thing as lying and sometimes I think that's true, but sometimes I think not.

 

2) Affair to me isn't really "new" anymore. I am fairly certain that OW has felt that way also in the last few months. We had lots of ups and downs since January- and I now think this is because we did get into a rut. She had begun to tell me more and more that she couldn't continue the way we were. I agreed. I told her living 2 lives was killing me. She would say that (I think at the 6 month mark) enough already. You have given me no reason to keep seeing you. You have made no effort. I would tell her I have no answers for her and not ready to rock the boat yet, that I needed a plan. She told me you have not sought out IC, not gone to a divorce lawyer. I told her why would I go to a divorce lawyer? She told me that since I have such a fear of what I might lose financially (Although my wife and I have our finances organized and no debt it still concerns me that somehow I would lose out in someway. Background is $1.5M house, Boat, substantial retirement fund and pension I have, wife has always worked and makes $100k+, and although when I say no debt I mean no mortgage or car loans- but I have no idea what she has on her credit cards- I made her remove my name from all of hers about 15 years ago because I found out she had huge balances from her clothes shopping habit which totally pissed me off- she just buys to buy and doesn't wear half the stuff) So anyway OW told me to face my fears about this go to an intial consultation with an attorney and at least SEE where I might end up financially if I were to divorce. But I'm not ready to do that.

 

3) To some degree we have dealt with day-to-day stuff. I have done some maintenance and repair stuff around her house and helped her from time to time with her bills when unexpected things have come up. She has never asked me to help her in anyway- I have had to insist that she allow me to help her. It was my pleasure to help her with those chores.

 

4) I don't know about the replacing thing. I can't see that happening.

 

5) Yep- we both have said this to each other many times- that I need to get out of one relationship before I can be in another- yet we both didn't seem to follow through with that until about a month ago.

 

The last month has been so up and down with OW ending with her just saying we where at a standstill unless I did something. She was adamant about that. And I agreed.

She asked me in one of our last long conversations the following things:

Do you get it? Do you understand that if you don't do something I'm out? You will never see me or talk to me again? Do you want that? DO you get that? Do you understand I will never be part of your life? Do you get that we'll never golf again? Never workout at the gym together again? Nothing she said to me. I told her no I don't want that and I'm not happy about that but that even if we weren't seeing each romantically we would always be friends, right? She was really pissed - She said NO- we will never be friends- but I don't get that, why not?

 

She sometimes over the last 3-4 months was on the fence about us. We would go back in forth. She would tell me sometimes she can't imagine her life without me. Without doing things ever again and I would tell her I can't keep hurting her, she deserves more- she deserves someone that can be there for her on a full-time basis, and I can't give that to her. She would cry and tell me that if I really loved her I would make an effort (IC/consulting w/divorce attorney). She is right of course....

 

In that last conversation she asked me if I thought about her being with another guy and wouldn't that bother me? (Yes- of course it would) but I didn't tell her that- what I told her was no it wouldn't bother me if he was single and could make her happy. She was really upset about that. But I think that I said that so maybe she would make the "decision" to leave the affair and I could tell myself- see she found someone else and it wasn't meant to be and then she did the "dirty work".

 

The other huge thing is marriage. She wants to be married at some point in her life. I have told her if I get divorce I would never get married again. I would live with someone, but not get married. She said she would never live with someone without be married. She said I was being ridiculous about making a statement like that and I was using that as an excuse because how would I know (if I got divorced) how I would feel in 2-3-4-5 years if I was involved with someone seriously. She also told me that I would hard-pressed to find a woman that would do everything in a relationship that a wife would do except being married. Or she said at least she would never even consider it. She wants the security of a man who is committed and serious in the relationship. She feels that if that step isn't taken (marriage) I could up and leave at anytime.

 

I'm rambling now....sorry.

Just so you all know I appreciate all the responses and patience from everyone here.

[TroubledSoul1]

If the love was really deep and real then she will take you back. But will it be just an A? If she isn't going to file, does she want you as an AP only?

 

I think no matter how deep our love is she told me that she may never be able to trust me with her heart because of the way I handed things. And if my wife files, and I don't then she doesn't want me by default. She wants me because I want her and have taken steps to prove that. AND she absolutely will not be an affair person.

 

That last conversation we had she told me that she heard the same $hit from me 6 months ago (I have no answers, don't know what I want to do) and that she "promises we won't be having this conversation 6 months from now because I won't be around" that she wasn't going through another summer of holidays and events and holidays that I'm not a part of in her life. She said she was done with my going back and forth and it was hurting her too much. It wasn't an ultimatium, but I knew she was right. We had hit the wall and she was putting her foot down and I think I'm ok with that because she made "the decision". I don't know. Maybe this in part made me finally seek IC.

I don't know.

[Got it]

What don't you know?

 

This is what I didn't get about my MM either. For me, once I slept with another man my marriage was totally over. It was very black and white. How could I do that and still try and engage with him on a daily basis? How could he not deserve better than being my security blanket, my fall back, my given?

 

If you care about either woman than you will be compassionate their feelings, wants, needs, and get off the fence.

 

Do you think you deserve both women?

 

You know that life can be good even after divorce?

 

Is that what you are looking for? Someone else to make a decision?

[Just a stone's throw]

In reading through all your posts I just keep thinking about how to get you past thinking of yourself in all of this. It makes no difference to me if you stay with your wife or leave for the OW but I do hope you will not continue to be a cake eater and doubt your OW will allow that.

 

But what strikes me is that I don't think you know what it is to truly give of yourself without expecting something in return, to give unconditionally, to love unconditionally.

 

I think your mind set, being one of a very logical thinker (CPA type) you think that A + B = C. If you put A - effort into something and B - conditions exist then you should always get C out of it. That's the love, respect, thanks, gratitude, conversations, intimacy, sharing, etc, etc, etc that you're not getting because you feel entitled to receive something because of what you've invested into the situation.

 

Try and do something for someone without expecting any benefit back to you and see what happens. Do something that you know will NOT benefit you at all but know that it will benefit someone else greatly and see what happens, try it over and over until you get a feeling about how your life would be with giving unselfishly to another.

[White Flower]

The other huge thing is marriage. She wants to be married at some point in her life. I have told her if I get divorce I would never get married again. I would live with someone, but not get married. She said she would never live with someone without be married. She said I was being ridiculous about making a statement like that and I was using that as an excuse because how would I know (if I got divorced) how I would feel in 2-3-4-5 years if I was involved with someone seriously. She also told me that I would hard-pressed to find a woman that would do everything in a relationship that a wife would do except being married. Or she said at least she would never even consider it. She wants the security of a man who is committed and serious in the relationship. She feels that if that step isn't taken (marriage) I could up and leave at anytime.

 

I suppose it comes down to how much you loved and respected her. If she had medical and life insurance of her own, then maybe living together without M would be ok, but what if she can't obtain these things on her own? Could you allow a woman to cook, clean, satisfy you sexually until the day you die only to know she'll suffer when you do because you wouldn't M her and provide her with insurance?