Pushing god on people! just dosent work

[freestyle]

Because I work erratic hours, and sometimes have to sleep during the day, I finally put a "No Soliciting" sign on my front door.

 

That doesn't seem to work on the faith pushers.

 

One time,I finally got up, annoyed when doorbell kept ringing, and answered the door.

 

I asked the people if they knew what the "No Soliciting" sign meant.

 

They quipped back, "Oh, we're not trying to sell you anything, we wanted to share the Word with you....."

 

I told them "As far as I'm concerned, you ARE trying to sell me something.

And I'm not interested in buying.." as I shut the door.

 

I respect everyone's right to believe what they wish, but I get very annoyed when anyone tries to force-feed me their point of view. I have my own spiritual beliefs, which I will share with anyone who wishes to engage in a civilized, respectful discussion.The moment someone tries to brow-beat me...........end of discussion.I won't waste time talking to a brick wall.

 

What really irks me is when people try to sweep my porch for me, and fail to notice that they're standing knee-deep in their own b.s.

 

 

Actually I've started doing the same thing as Knaveman....I tell people I'm a Buddhist when they come knocking on my door....they usually scurry away.

 

(No offense intended, Taramaiden.... actually Buddhism is a school of philosophy that I have a high respect for......)

[carhill]

When the bible thumpers drive this far out in the country to interrupt my solitude I just hit the sprinkler button and watch them receiving divine guidance to get back to their car in a dry state. So far, no joy....for them

 

TBH, the panhandlers, guys with 'extra concrete from a job', the 'trim your tree' people, 'I'm out of gas' and every other low life scammer who comes my way gets the same treatment. I'd deal with them in another way but *my* faith obliges me follow a different, less permanently fatal path. If it's summer, they cool off

[freestyle]

Carhill, can I borrow that?

[carhill]

True- there is an antique milk can on the front porch where every religious pamphlet which has been left for the last 22 years has been deposited. Think of it as a divine recycling barrel. One of these days it will fill up and overflow. I'm trying to think of a good candidate to give it to in my will. I think such messages have value. I also believe in renewal, whether it be spirit or pulp.

[allina]

Ugh! I cannot stand this nonsense! When I was living in Oakland there was a group of people that would stop by every weekend with their pamphlets. Funny thing is, the pamphlets were in spanish, and the people passing them out spoke no english. Yet they still tried to talk to me and push their god on me. I think they should have been spending their Saturday mornings elsewhere...

[TaraMaiden]

(. . .)

I asked the people if they knew what the "No Soliciting" sign meant.

 

They quipped back, "Oh, we're not trying to sell you anything, we wanted to share the Word with you....."

 

I told them "As far as I'm concerned, you ARE trying to sell me something.

And I'm not interested in buying.." as I shut the door.

I think that's a good one. Except I'd say something like....No, but you're trying to convince ME to sell something.

My soul. And trust me, it's not for sale, no matter how high you bid."

 

 

Actually I've started doing the same thing as Knaveman....I tell people I'm a Buddhist when they come knocking on my door....they usually scurry away.

 

(No offense intended, Taramaiden.... actually Buddhism is a school of philosophy that I have a high respect for......)

 

You do know Knaveman IS Buddhist, don't you.....?

[knaveman]

This thread made me think of this...http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/04/texas-taliban/

[SpanksTheMonkey]

This thread made me think of this...http://thinkprogress.org/2010/03/04/texas-taliban/

That is just insane! they are even targeting another church for being gay friendly

[shadowofman]

Im sorry, sorry, sorry. I was not lumping buddhists into a category of theists. I was saying that buddhists believe something that I almost certainly do not. That was the extent of my meaning.

 

And education will not give someone all of the answers. Your assumption is that when we know something, then it is no longer unbelievable. And you know....I agree. Knowing God makes him less unbelievable and more amazing.

 

Of course an education will leave questions unanswered. And thank Shiva that the world is exciting enough to have new discoveries every day. We get to see myths grow smaller and evolve into more untestable forms.

 

True. However, as you must admit, it could very easily be THE explanation. Scientists like to say they can explain how everything began and is without a need for God, yet they ignore every possible hypothesis that is not naturalistic. This invalidates their explanation as the correct one, because they cannot measure a non-naturalistic explanation.

 

Yes, God could be THE explanation. Scientists do not claim to be able to explain how everything began, only the things that we have observed through controlled, peer reviewed observation. Lack of objective evidence is the reason that I have no faith in your hypothesis. I place your idea of God on a par with Zeus or Thor.

Your sentence here makes me laugh because naturalistic is a synonym for real. "...yet they ignore every possible hypothesis that is not real. This invalidates their explanation as the correct one, because they cannot measure a non-real explanation." Of course we disregard what is not real. If you want me to consider your hypothesis, you must first convince me that the non-natural is actually natural.

 

The hypothesis that everything began without God because a hypothesis can be constructed using a naturalistic theory does not mean that this is how it all happened.

 

In any case, there can be several hypothesis to explain a question. The God hypothesis is welcome for all questions. But no evidence is ever offered to challenge the other hypothesizes. God lives in the small places where legitimate hypothesizes are absent.

 

While you may not find it necessary, that does not mean it is not reality. Ignoring it simply narrows your possible explanations for everything.

 

I do not ignore the possibility of God. I just try to find in in fact imagine there should be more logical explanations. The God explanation is way too complex of an answer to be likely in most cases. But I do not ignore it.

 

Saying that "God did it" does not make it less wonderful or completely explained. Saying that a man designed and made my computer does not mean that I do not need or desire to educate myself on how it was done.

It most certainly leaves the question unanswered. If more Christians joined in science in order to determine the methods of a creator, then I wouldn't call out the fact that most Christians are content with the answer "God did it."

 

Is death "the total blackout?" And you know this how?

Well I have almost died before, but my experience is anecdotal. The "total blackout" is simply a logical hypothesis considering the brain and organs which provide and analyse our five senses begin to deteriorate at death.

[knaveman]

Buddhists may not be driving planes into buildings, but setting themselves on fire is some pretty extreme protesting, imo.

 

But look at who is being hurt in this example. Buddhists will kill themselves to prove a point, the Muslims will kill themselves and as many others as possible to prove a point. But a good comparison of two different religions approach to "protesting."

 

And while Buddhism has changed over the centuries to be quite accommodating to women (in some ways!!), I know that I have translated texts that are very anti-female. There is also the Theravada's stance on females being ordained as well as the poor treatment of such laywomen devotees as the mae ji.

 

I have never and will never claim to be an expert or even very well versed in Buddhist teachings as I don't read religious text much. However, I seem to recall reading somewhere that the Buddha himself allowed and setup a nunnery for women. Or something to that effect.

 

I love Buddhism, I have devoted a lot of time and energy into studying it (although I am not a practitioner) but it does have its extremes just like any other religion.

 

I LOVE BUDDHISM TOO! And you are correct, it is subject to the same extremism and fanaticism as every other religion in the world. But living in the west we see it less or not at all so it hasn't become an issue...yet.

 

All that being said, western Buddhists usually are much more passive and open minded in regards to their religion, but to imply that all Buddhists are like that is a pretty sweeping generalization.

 

No matter what we believe, we are all human and we specialize in sweeping generalizations.

[TaraMaiden]

Tara-Maiden, I really enjoy reading your posts about Buddhism, but I often get the impression you lump all Buddhists into one category. In fact, some Buddhists do convert others, usually from one Buddhist school to another (such as the case in Nepal) and some do regard Buddha very similar to god (in the Lotus Sutra he is practically a Christ like figure).

 

I think it's important to consider the cultural and local, social and political influences prevalent in these places. Much of what seems to be Buddhist practice is actually heavily influenced, mixed and dare I say "tainted" with superstition, folklore, other practices and politics.

 

I am not quite clear what you mean by bracketing Buddhism into the same category as other religions...

I mean exactly what shadowofman did.

 

Buddhism is a beautiful religion, but it is very politically motivated, especially in countries like Sri Lanka, Burma, Vietnam, etc.

Precisely. Buddhism per se is not political. Buddhism is motivate, mixed, infiltrated and combined with other factors - but it's not therefore Buddhism. It's Buddhism-and-something-else.

 

There are countries that are Buddhist nations,

Not quite.

There are some countries who have made Buddhism their priomary religfion. Strictly speaking, Buddhism is of Northern Indian origin.

 

so though they may not go door to door with pamphlets they do propagate their religion in other ways, and yes...

Again, this is born of custom and social adaptation.

And much of what they speak of is influenced by their socio-economic and cultural history....

they sometimes suppress the minority religious groups. Buddhists may not be driving planes into buildings, but setting themselves on fire is some pretty extreme protesting, imo.

very few Buddhists do this. And at least it's only themselves they're doing it to.

I can't quite see the connection you're making.

 

And while Buddhism has changed over the centuries to be quite accommodating to women (in some ways!!), I know that I have translated texts that are very anti-female. There is also the Theravada's stance on females being ordained as well as the poor treatment of such laywomen devotees as the mae ji.

There is also much evidence to point out that this is definitely not part of the Buddha's original teachings but was added later. The Buddha founded the first group of ordained nuns.....

 

I love Buddhism, I have devoted a lot of time and energy into studying it (although I am not a practitioner) but it does have its extremes just like any other religion

.

And like most other religions, the extremes are man-made, not of origin....

 

All that being said, western Buddhists usually are much more passive and open minded in regards to their religion, but to imply that all Buddhists are like that is a pretty sweeping generalization.

If one adheres to Buddhist principles laid out by the Buddha, it all works beautifully.

The Buddha came to teach us one thing, and one thing only. The origin of Stress, and how to eliminate it.

 

That just bowls me over with its simplicity.

[shadowofman]

How much do you know of God and Christianity? How much do you know of other religions?

 

Personally, I admire many teachings of Buddhism. It is mainly (if practiced correctly) a teaching of "good deeds" and good thoughts. I have met some Buddhists that acted more "Christian-like" than many Christians.

 

I know a pretty good amount about Christianity. I mean I know a fair amount about the scriptures (more than some Christians know). I know that each person has their own interpretation of the scriptures. I know the common thread holding them all together is the idea that Jesus died for the sins of man.

 

I know some Buddhists and I don't really know what ties each buddhist together. I'm fine with good deeds and good thought. I advocate such things as an atheist. Would you admire such an atheist?

[pureinheart]

I find myself a little annoyed today why you ask? well because this morning at 10am I was woken up! by a women giving out religious pamphlets.

 

Mind you I had a hard time falling asleep last night finally managed to at 5am. It wasn't that she knocked that eeks me it was the fact she kept knocking until I answered the darn door.

 

She actually knocked so hard in the end I got scared and thought their was a emergency some were maybe. I answered half awake she said she was sorry for waking me up but it was important she then handed me the flier and walked away!

 

Honestly its people like that who make me happy to be a atheist don't they see pushing your beliefs on others doesn't work?

 

This really doesn't bother me. I've been woken up in the middle of the night by people partying...oh well, I'll catch up on the sleep later.

 

I possibly learned to deal with lack of sleep due to being hyperthyroid...I spent many nights awake.

[pureinheart]

I am a Christian and when people ring my doorbell and bother me, I push the intercom button and ask them to read the sign by their right foot. It says " I am a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ as my savior. I respect your right not to believe and you will respect my right to clean my gun while aimed in your general direction. Be blessed and watch the stairs. They can be slippery. " It's a southern thang.

 

You crack me up

[pureinheart]

Just wanted to throw this out there...when I "see" a person, I see a person, not what they believe or much of anything else. What I do "see" concerning people is their personality, whether they are respectful or mean-spirited.

[TaraMaiden]

Im sorry, sorry, sorry. I was not lumping buddhists into a category of theists. I was saying that buddhists believe something that I almost certainly do not. That was the extent of my meaning.

 

Thank you.

I'd be interested to know what it is "that Buddhists believe in that you almost certainly do not"....

Could you clarify what that is, or has it been covered already....?

 

I'm hoping to not come across as confrontational. I really am just asking.

 

[TaraMaiden]

I have a lot that I want to respond to... I might not get to it all, as ironically enough, I have to finish a research paper on Buddhism.

How nice for you!

 

 

 

Yes, dare you say, tainted. I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. I do not mean this offensively, but I find it to be extremely presumptuous. It aggravates me because I have heard this argument so many times before in my studies... usually from late 19th early 20th century orientalist writings. When Buddhism first came to the U.S. they "westernized" it in part using this belief that Buddhism was a whole, pure, scientific religion, but the Asian people tainted it with their superstition and folklore. It was up to the west to bring Buddhism back to its true teachings.

I'm truly sorry if I came across sounding as if I meant this.

And here, I must hurriedly state that tainted was the wrong word.

I never meant Tainted with a negatve connotation. I actually meant to write 'tinted' or 'painted'. Truly, hand on heart I did. What an almighty blunder that turned out to be. Could I replace it with 'coloured'? because that was the inflection I intended. Tainted was an extremely poor accident.

 

I would add that I keep company with many Buddhists from all over the world, and those who live in Asian countries such as the Indonesian Islands have confirmed to me many times that Buddhism is practised slightly differently there. I also know several western monks placed in Asian monasteries, and they see different local attitudes and practises to those practised in the west. But I wasn't implying one was either better or worse than any others. Just different practices.....

 

These European and American Orientalists approached Buddhism the only way they knew how: through scripture. It is understandable, since most came from a Judeo-Christian background where texts are very important. So things like auras were scientifically explained. When Buddha spoke of hell and demons, he suddenly did not mean it literally, but symbolically. Anything that was in the least bit superstitious, supernatural, or foreign was taken out. Science was brought in. And obviously, this is the popular belief that continues throughout modern western Buddhism today.

And I'm afraid I have to disagree with you there.

Theravada speaks of different devas, and Tibetan Buddhism is full of such imagery. I certainly do not dismiss these. And I agree that much of what the Buddha taught was allegorical or symbolic.

 

I cannot agree with a foreign body going into a country and telling a group of people that the way they are practicing their religion (which they have been practicing for thousands of years) is all wrong.

And neither can I. I apologise again, if I lft you with that impression. Not my intention at all.

 

I am not alone on this. Most Buddhist scholars today discount the whole Buddhism "was tainted by cultural practices" idea, instead they lean on trying to experience Buddhism the way the natives practice it.

permit me to give you some cultural practices which are integrated into Buddhist practice, but may not be Buddhist in origin.

Thre is consecration of ground to appease the spirits of the soil, and the trees and of the plants, when people want to rebuild. it's Feng Shui, but also incorporates some shamanism... it's a bit of a melange, and I think it might be argue that it's a 'belt and braces' approach in order to harness as much positivity and good Karma as possible....

But I'm again, not saying it's wrong, it's different. I don't believe, as far as I'm aware that it forms part and parcel of the Buddha's original teachings, but it's what they have chosen to do....

 

 

 

 

 

I was making a connection that there are Buddhist who do participate in extreme protests. And it is not as rare as we think.

Right, but such actionjs do not directly either jeopardise or threaten anyone else.

 

Tara Maiden, maybe I am reading you wrong, but you seem to be implying that your brand of Buddhism is truer to the teachings than those who are practicing it in Asian countries

.

Yes it is, but I'm not saying that makes me any better than them.

I practice Theravada Buddhism, which is as close to the original de facto teachings of the Buddha as one can get. If it's practiced differently elsewhere, that's fine. I just don't hold with it. But I'm not in any way implying or suggesting that in this case it's inferior.

 

I am gathering that from your earlier comment about it being tainted. I am sure that those who have tainted (for lack of a better word) Buddhism feel that they are adhering to the principles of Buddhism as well if not better than anyone else...

As I explained above that was a . truly unintentional dreadfully inappropriate typo. I was in a hurry when I posted that response, and see waht hurrying makes you do....

 

My end all point is that Buddhism is a fascinating religion, but when you say to not lump them in with the theists I say, why not? They are, in fact, quite similar.

Could you tell me where you feel the similarities are strongest?

The Buddha chose to not comment on the existence of god, as such discussion was fruitless and led nowhere.

But Buddhism does address the 'god' question, and insofar as Buddhism is concerned, it doesn't stand up to logical scrutiny.....

 

Many thanks for this discussion. I appreciate your points, and the opportunity to clarify.

[ADF]

The trouble is, it does work. Or, it works often enough that people keep doing it. But they might anyway. Christians, in particular, are enjoined by Christ to spread the Gospel wherever they go--or so goes the story. When people honestly believe God wants them to do something, they throw out all rational analysis and just do it. Let me put it this way: when was the last time an atheist women drowned all five of her kids in a bathtub?

[TaraMaiden]

Oh hang on....There are countless atrocities enacted upon children by people who are entirely atheist..... so I'm not entirely sure what analogy you're drawing, here.....

Again, just asking.....

[sally4sara]

I much prefer Tara's style of propagating her belief system. In this thread, she shares info because it is topic appropriate.

In other instances, when the subject is not about belief systems, she still promotes her belief system by being honest and admirable. A good representative of any belief system is someone who respects others disinterest in their belief system while living in a manner that shows the benefit of their own beliefs.

 

She has certainly caused me to grow more intrigued in Buddhism without making me feel pressured.

[knaveman]

Hello, Knaveman.

Please, not all Muslims will kill themselves and others. The Muslim extremists are a small % of the Muslim population. Unfortunately, they are prolific enough to give ALL Muslims a bad rap.

 

Also, many Tamil would disagree with you on that matter about Buddhists killing themselves before killing others or hurting others:

 

http://www.globalpeacesupport.com/globalpeacesupport.com/post/2010/02/13/Tamils-languishing-in-Sri-Lankan-Death-Camps.aspx

 

I'm sorry if I implied that all Muslims fly planes into buildings. That is not what I meant. I was merely pointing out the major differences to the two forms of protesting you brought up.

 

Sri Lankans that call themselves Buddhist and rape torture and kill Tamils obviously aren't practicing Buddhism at all. Kinda like the KKK calling themselves Christian then torturing and killing people because of the color of their skin. Not very Christian of them.

 

There will always be that small extremist percentage of just about any religion that will give the whole religion a bad name. Sadly.

 

Hope you do well on your research paper, you sound like you have an excellent grasp of the subject.

[freestyle]

I much prefer Tara's style of propagating her belief system. In this thread, she shares info because it is topic appropriate.

In other instances, when the subject is not about belief systems, she still promotes her belief system by being honest and admirable. A good representative of any belief system is someone who respects others disinterest in their belief system while living in a manner that shows the benefit of their own beliefs.

 

She has certainly caused me to grow more intrigued in Buddhism without making me feel pressured.

 

Excellent observation, Sally.Tara's postings are a great example of teaching by example~~

 

as opposed to brow-beating one's point of view into another.

 

I believe the former is far more effective than the latter.

[ADF]

Oh hang on....There are countless atrocities enacted upon children by people who are entirely atheist..... so I'm not entirely sure what analogy you're drawing, here.....

Again, just asking.....

 

Someone once said that good people will usually tend to do good, and evil people will usually tend to do evil. But to get a good person to do evil? For that, you need religion.

 

Certainly, atheists sometimes abuse children. But my point was that basically good. well-meaning people are capable of the most horrific acts IF they believe that in doing them, they are fulfilling God's will. Religion isn't the sole cause of human depravity. But it helps.

 

Try this experiment. Try to think of a some good deed that a religious person could do that an atheist would not be able to do. I can't think of one. Now, try to think of some evil action that ONLY a religious person would be likely to do. I'll bet you can think of many, right off the top of your head.

[TaraMaiden]

(. . .)

Try this experiment. Try to think of a some good deed that a religious person could do that an atheist would not be able to do. I can't think of one. Now, try to think of some evil action that ONLY a religious person would be likely to do. I'll bet you can think of many, right off the top of your head.

 

Nope.

I think you may need to give us some examples.

Perpetrating acts of this nature in the name of God (or particular deity), is the personal view of that individual. It wouldn't necessarily be accepted throughout that specific religion as being doing the work of God, or God's view or the view of that religion overall, and might not be either sanctioned or blessed by it.....

If you're going to make an accusation of this kind, (I'm right now not saying you're wrong, because you haven't been specific) it's one that would have to be endorsed by that whole religious faction, and classified by every other religion's opinion as "Evil".

Which in itself is an extreme word.....

[Trojan John]

Nope.

I think you may need to give us some examples.

Perpetrating acts of this nature in the name of God (or particular deity), is the personal view of that individual. It wouldn't necessarily be accepted throughout that specific religion as being doing the work of God, or God's view or the view of that religion overall, and might not be either sanctioned or blessed by it.....

If you're going to make an accusation of this kind, (I'm right now not saying you're wrong, because you haven't been specific) it's one that would have to be endorsed by that whole religious faction, and classified by every other religion's opinion as "Evil".

Which in itself is an extreme word.....

 

ADF is referring to the proposition commonly stated by Hitchens during debates. Even though these "evil" actions (9/11, 7/7, animal sacrifice, child abuses, witch hunts, etc.) are not endorsed by all in a particular religion, the point is that people who commit them have done so in the name of God or because of their understanding of their religious teachings. And it's not limited to a few individuals -- entire villages do this. You will never find someone committing atrocities in the name of atheism.