Pushing god on people! just dosent work

[shadowofman]

Thank you.

I'd be interested to know what it is "that Buddhists believe in that you almost certainly do not"....

Could you clarify what that is, or has it been covered already....?

 

I'm hoping to not come across as confrontational. I really am just asking.

 

The name of the game is that you make a claim and I tell you whether or not I believe you based on the evidence supporting your claim. I am the skeptic here, and I have no idea what you believe.

[TaraMaiden]

The name of the game is that you make a claim and I tell you whether or not I believe you based on the evidence supporting your claim. I am the skeptic here, and I have no idea what you believe.

Ah, I see. Ok.

Well, Buddhists don't actually believe anything. That is to say, we take nothing at face value, or believe anything simply because it's a requirement. the Buddha actually reccommends we examine everything presented to us in as much depth as we possibly can, before either accepting it as a truth we're happy to live by, or rejecting it as unacceptable

to us. We have the further option of admitting something is unfathomable to us and laying it aside for possible future conjecture. There are also some matters the Buddha described as UNconjecturable, and that we'd probably go potty-do-lally trying to figure them out.

The Four Noble Truths are pretty inisputable, but acceptance of this is also up to us. There is NO obligatory belief in Buddhism.

Edited May 2, 2010 by TaraMaiden

[TaraMaiden]

ADF is referring to the proposition commonly stated by Hitchens during debates. Even though these "evil" actions (9/11, 7/7, animal sacrifice, child abuses, witch hunts, etc.) are not endorsed by all in a particular religion, the point is that people who commit them have done so in the name of God or because of their understanding of their religious teachings. And it's not limited to a few individuals -- entire villages do this. You will never find someone committing atrocities in the name of atheism.

 

Thank you.

I understand the distinction now.

But in my opinion, whilst I understand the accepted premise you give an example of (and I do see what you mean), it has to be said that even though "entire villages do this", I would still argue that it's still a misguided PoV, to believe you're doing this in the name of a God....and even other Christians would say the same.

So while I now understand the point being made, I don't think it indicates that any one religion is particularly evil, because of the actions of some (comparatively few) greatly misguided people.

I feel it a mistake to tar the religion itself with the same brush. Although I merely make the point to clarify, not to accuse anyone here of necessarily doing so.

[sb129]

I always enjoy reading TMs posts, as they are interesting without being "in your face".

 

I remember when I was about 7 months pregnant with my daughter and I was in a very busy "nesting" phase cleaning and what have you.

There was a knock at the door, and it was the local Watchtower brigade lady with her leaflets.

She looked me up and down and very pointedly looked at my pregnant tummy- I could see her eyes light up as she anticipated converting not just me but my unborn child (ok maybe I was paranoid, but she did give me a very "knowing" look.)

 

The Jehovahs Witnesses are up there with my least least LEAST favourite religions.

I knew a child that died because his parents refused him a life saving blood transfusion.

Not to mention all the other hooey that they believe in.

 

Anyway I sent Ms Happy Clappy on her way with "there is absolutely NO way I want to discuss anything with you in case it poisons the ears of my unborn child".

 

If my (aetheist) H had been home I probably would have invited her in, as he has far more theology knowledge than me and watching him question her would have been more entertaining than doing the cleaning.

 

Fair play to them though- they keep doing the rounds, they're resilient, I'll give them that.

 

The next time the Mormons come I might invite them in and ask for a run down on those golden plates.

[shadowofman]

Ah, I see. Ok.

Well, Buddhists don't actually believe anything. That is to say, we take nothing at face value, or believe anything simply because it's a requirement. the Buddha actually reccommends we examine everything presented to us in as much depth as we possibly can, before either accepting it as a truth we're happy to live by, or rejecting it as unacceptable

to us. We have the further option of admitting something is unfathomable to us and laying it aside for possible future conjecture. There are also some matters the Buddha described as UNconjecturable, and that we'd probably go potty-do-lally trying to figure them out.

The Four Noble Truths are pretty inisputable, but acceptance of this is also up to us. There is NO obligatory belief in Buddhism.

 

Well then I suppose that I might be a Buddhist. Though is am reserved to label myself such because I don't know Buddha. I'm also not fond of authority figures, so I don't know what makes THE Buddha any different from me. Maybe it would be more accurate to label myself a ShadowofManist. I make claims all the time that I must attempt to back up with evidence. I'm sure Buddha did also.

[ADF]

Nope.

I think you may need to give us some examples.

Perpetrating acts of this nature in the name of God (or particular deity), is the personal view of that individual. It wouldn't necessarily be accepted throughout that specific religion as being doing the work of God, or God's view or the view of that religion overall, and might not be either sanctioned or blessed by it.....

If you're going to make an accusation of this kind, (I'm right now not saying you're wrong, because you haven't been specific) it's one that would have to be endorsed by that whole religious faction, and classified by every other religion's opinion as "Evil".

Which in itself is an extreme word.....

 

Okay, let's be specific. Would anyone have their daughter's genitals mutliated if it were not a religious requirement? When was the last time a group of atheists flew a jet airplane into a pair of builings? When was the last time a secularist burned or bombed an abortion clinic, or gunned down a doctor (in church!) on the grounds it was "God's will?" Is that specific enough for you?

[TaraMaiden]

Well then I suppose that I might be a Buddhist. Though is am reserved to label myself such because I don't know Buddha. I'm also not fond of authority figures, so I don't know what makes THE Buddha any different from me.

Nothing makes you any different to him, than makes me different to you.

The Buddha made efforts to point out that he was a simple man who'd just discovered a way of life that worked for him, and that if we wanted to, we could try the same thing, because it worked for him, so there was - and is - no reason why it shouldn't work for us too. He was a human, and being human, he lived, got sick, and died. That's certainly no different to you and me, is it?

 

Maybe it would be more accurate to label myself a ShadowofManist. I make claims all the time that I must attempt to back up with evidence.

There are many Buddhists who actually hesitate to call themselves Buddhists, because at the end of the day, it is indeed, as you point out, just another label....

The only things you need to solidly back up with indisputable evidence are the stories you tell yourself in your mind. The construct we build around our perception.

we tell ourselves so many lies in order to pacify our fears and doubts, and to convice ourselves we are in complete control. What others see...Is that really our truth, or what we want them to believe?

 

I'm sure Buddha did also.

The Buddha fundamentally only told Four truths which insofar as examination is concerned, stand up to complete dissection, examination and scrutiny.

That's why they are called "The Four Noble truths".

But this is neither the time, occasion or place for me to elaborate.

 

Suffice to say that the Buddha himself was walking proof.

 

Goodness knows, over three millennia people have examined them, scrutinised them, dissected them, torn them to pieces, interpreted and mis-interpreted them, over and over and over again.

And here they are, 3000 years later, still as solid as they ever were.

I'm happy with them, they work for me.

[TaraMaiden]

Okay, let's be specific. Would anyone have their daughter's genitals mutliated if it were not a religious requirement? When was the last time a group of atheists flew a jet airplane into a pair of builings? When was the last time a secularist burned or bombed an abortion clinic, or gunned down a doctor (in church!) on the grounds it was "God's will?" Is that specific enough for you?

 

 

Thank you.

I understand.

I think we've covered this.

[shadowofman]

So it is safe to say that Buddhism is simply a philosophy. I'm sorry I included it in a list of religions. I assumed that Buddhism included at least a belief in a spirit which is separate from the physical body. Maybe this is not a dogmatic quality of the philosophy.

[TaraMaiden]

If Buddhism were 'simply a philosophy' as you put it (which I can equate with on some levels) then there would be countless number of nuns and monks wasting their time in temples.

To call it simply a philosophy is as "bad", if I may say so, as bracketting it with other religions....

And you're right. There is no soul or spirit, which we feel transmigrates from one existence into another.

But there again, we'd go so far as to say there is no "you" either....

[shadowofman]

Then I just don't know....

[pureinheart]

The trouble is, it does work. Or, it works often enough that people keep doing it. But they might anyway. Christians, in particular, are enjoined by Christ to spread the Gospel wherever they go--or so goes the story. When people honestly believe God wants them to do something, they throw out all rational analysis and just do it. Let me put it this way: when was the last time an atheist women drowned all five of her kids in a bathtub?

 

Many people do many things in the "name of God"...it is up to you to use your discernment as to whether these acts are of God or not.

 

FTR, Christians are not the only ones who do various things in the name of God or their god.

[shadowofman]

Many people do many things in the "name of God"...it is up to you to use your discernment as to whether these acts are of God or not.

 

In other words, people act as their individual moralities dictate. The phenomena of "answers from God" is nothing more than human "conscious".

 

Unfortunately some people fail to see that goodness comes from within them and doesn't need to be "by the grace of God". They are in a sense, neglecting the concept of free will.

[S Chris]

I have to keep wiping a pen mark off of my door frame (it's graffiti!) any time the local church people pay this house a visit. They mark the door to signal to others that this is the house of a non believer, and should therefore be targeted more aggressively than other houses. I find this act absolutely disgusting.

 

What I do in my own time is my business. For somebody else to decide for me that my life is being lived the wrong way, and use the flimsy excuse that they are working for a higher power I can not physically observe in any way at all to invade my front doorstep on a semi-weekly basis is absurd. I won't go into why I have no beliefs, but I will say they are a lot more valid to me than some stranger's ranting. (and there is a lot more to do with it than personal problems).

 

It irks me that they put on a fake smile and try to play the good guy when their intentions are to basically rape my belief system and force me to think like them with a threat of eternal torture and pain if I do not.

 

I am aware there are religious types here, so I will not go on a full out tirade against religion. But I honestly do not see how anybody could think they have the right to force other people to change their entire lifestyle. I do not worship their deity, therefore, that deity's desire to make me serve it is no more valid than the claim made by the guy in the tin foil hat behind the local grocery store who tells me to give him footballs so he can feed his pet dragon. And at least he doesn't come up to my house and knock on my door.

 

This sort of thing should really be made illegal.

 

I will add, though, that I have no problems with religion in particular. I picked up a lot of good habits from my days as a Christian. And I think a lot of the basic values are sound and something a lot of kids today could stand to learn. However, I have no interest in committing my life to the idea of a higher power. But that's just for me. If other people are happy in their life believing, that's perfectly fine. I will never try and tell them I think they are wrong. I don't really think they are wrong. If they live a happy life with that belief, then they live a happy life. They just shouldn't require me to believe the same for them to live it.

Edited May 3, 2010 by S Chris

[Clep]

I have to keep wiping a pen mark off of my door frame (it's graffiti!) any time the local church people pay this house a visit. They mark the door to signal to others that this is the house of a non believer, and should therefore be targeted more aggressively than other houses. I find this act absolutely disgusting.

 

What I do in my own time is my business. For somebody else to decide for me that my life is being lived the wrong way, and use the flimsy excuse that they are working for a higher power I can not physically observe in any way at all to invade my front doorstep on a semi-weekly basis is absurd. I won't go into why I have no beliefs, but I will say they are a lot more valid to me than some stranger's ranting. (and there is a lot more to do with it than personal problems).

 

It irks me that they put on a fake smile and try to play the good guy when their intentions are to basically rape my belief system and force me to think like them with a threat of eternal torture and pain if I do not.

 

I am aware there are religious types here, so I will not go on a full out tirade against religion. But I honestly do not see how anybody could think they have the right to force other people to change their entire lifestyle. I do not worship their deity, therefore, that deity's desire to make me serve it is no more valid than the claim made by the guy in the tin foil hat behind the local grocery store who tells me to give him footballs so he can feed his pet dragon. And at least he doesn't come up to my house and knock on my door.

 

This sort of thing should really be made illegal.

 

I will add, though, that I have no problems with religion in particular. I picked up a lot of good habits from my days as a Christian. And I think a lot of the basic values are sound and something a lot of kids today could stand to learn. However, I have no interest in committing my life to the idea of a higher power. But that's just for me. If other people are happy in their life believing, that's perfectly fine. I will never try and tell them I think they are wrong. I don't really think they are wrong. If they live a happy life with that belief, then they live a happy life. They just shouldn't require me to believe the same for them to live it.

 

I am a Christian but I couldn't agree with your ideas more. If I am questioning my life and are seeking answers I can go and ask.

 

I used to have people come to my door all the time. I have never had anyone other than those of the Jehovah Witness faith come to my door though.

 

I think they believe that it is their way of doing service. My church cleans up the community, gives money to agencies to help the poor, has a homeless center etc. My church believes in attraction rather than promotion and that belief respects people's freedom of choice.

 

Should it be illegal, I don't know. I do know there need be a clear sign on the door that says no soliciting and then the legalities need come into the picture.

 

I went to delete the parts of your post that were not applicable but couldn't actually find any. You are right on, especially the part in bold.

[shadowofman]

Just watched "Lord, Save Me From Your Followers"

 

A film by a Christian about this very topic. I was quite touched. First time a person of faith has done this to me in a while. Inspiring as Christianity is supposed to be.

[TaraMaiden]

Then I just don't know....

Care to elaborate...........?

 

What don't you know?

[shadowofman]

I don't know why I am not a Buddhist? I am more confused as to what the hell it is. I choose to believe that Buddhism does not exist, or more accurately, I will ignore it from now on. You might as well call yourself a Thinkist.

[whichwayisup]

I find myself a little annoyed today why you ask? well because this morning at 10am I was woken up! by a women giving out religious pamphlets.

 

Mind you I had a hard time falling asleep last night finally managed to at 5am. It wasn't that she knocked that eeks me it was the fact she kept knocking until I answered the darn door.

 

She actually knocked so hard in the end I got scared and thought their was a emergency some were maybe. I answered half awake she said she was sorry for waking me up but it was important she then handed me the flier and walked away!

 

Honestly its people like that who make me happy to be a atheist don't they see pushing your beliefs on others doesn't work?

 

How is this really any different than a sales person, or a local politican knocking on your door to give you a flyer? Giving someone a pamphlet isn't pushing their religion down your throat. Trust me, I've had JW come to my door and try to talk me into joining, you tell them no thanks, they keep on trying. This woman didn't seem pushy.. Anyway just my 2 cents.

 

She probably walked away out of embarressment. Knocking so many times was a bad decision and seeing you half asleep she probably realized that.

[D-Lish]

Should it be illegal, I don't know. I do know there need be a clear sign on the door that says no soliciting and then the legalities need come into the picture.

QUOTE]

 

No, it absolutely shouldn't be illegal. But knock on my door pushing your beliefs, expect I am going to tell you to **** off. It's free speech on both sides.

[TaraMaiden]

I don't know why I am not a Buddhist? I am more confused as to what the hell it is. I choose to believe that Buddhism does not exist, or more accurately, I will ignore it from now on. You might as well call yourself a Thinkist.

 

you're only confused because you don't realise what it is, but you think you know what it isn't.

"A thinkist"? I'm almost convinced the Buddha would have liked that, even if it would have made him laugh.

 

"Things are not what you think they are.

Nor are they otherwise".

 

My friend, if you want to discuss this further, I'm more than willing to enter into free dialogue, via PM.

But to deny Buddhism exists is actually to deny yourself the solution to everything you're striving for in your life.

Seriously.

I've seen all your threads, and I see your problem.

you don't.

That's not to say that the answer is either easy to understand, or to implement.

quite the contrary.

But it's extremely simple.

 

Contact me if you want.

Or not.

The choice is yours, I leave it to you.

[TaraMaiden]

(. . .) Should it be illegal, I don't know. I do know there need be a clear sign on the door that says no soliciting and then the legalities need come into the picture.

 

no, actually, they don't. You'd be better putting a sign on your door stating "No trespassing".... That would probably have more clout.....

 

How is this really any different than a sales person, or a local politican knocking on your door to give you a flyer? Giving someone a pamphlet isn't pushing their religion down your throat.

That depends on the time and circumstance. In the UK there are very clear-cut legal outlines to this.

 

No, it absolutely shouldn't be illegal. But knock on my door pushing your beliefs, expect I am going to tell you to **** off. It's free speech on both sides.

There is a difference between free Speech and Free responsible Speech.

A person coming to your door and canvassing for support - be it religious, political, environmental or to do with your neighbourhood, is permissible.

A person canvassing you privately at work, and pressuring you and coercing you by imposing their views on you - is actually illegal.

It's inappropriate.

Here in the UK, there is no limit to somebody practising their religion in the way they wish, but only if it falls within the strictures of National Law. Furthermore it cannot be practised in a place of their choosing, whenever they want to.

so for example, you can belong to a religion that adheres to the principle of cannibalism - but you can't actually practice cannibalism.

Rastafarians deem it part of their religion to smoke cannabis.

Fine.

Ok.

But smoking pot is illegal.

If you get caught, the law outweighs your religious doctrine.

 

Similarly, if you work for an insurance company, and one of your colleagues begins trying to convert his clients to his/her religion, during work time, that is wholly inappropriate and not permitted.

It contravenes not only their contract, but also Law.

Because it's an inappropriate time and place to practice his/her religion. If they were fired on this basis, any claim for unfair dismissal would be rejected.

 

These are all aspects of the European Convention Law of Human Rights.

Something the USA doesn't ascribe to.

And there are countless legal arguments in your courts, precisely because of the conflict between the First and Second Amendment.

 

First Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances."

 

Second Amendment:

A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

 

 

it's the interpretation of these two clauses that causes the legal problems.

 

The European Court Human Rights Law has no such ambiguity.

[shadowofman]

"Things are not what you think they are.

Nor are they otherwise".

 

Sigh...Go ahead and PM me the solution to my problems.

[pureinheart]

Just watched "Lord, Save Me From Your Followers"

 

A film by a Christian about this very topic. I was quite touched. First time a person of faith has done this to me in a while. Inspiring as Christianity is supposed to be.

 

The Christian station that I watch has had many of these programs aired and I completely agree.

 

Shadow, this is how I've become, and God forgive me for my attitude...although people are so turned off by "people of faith" (meaning anyone or any faith that has not walked the talk whether intentional or not) that I am relunctant to say a word for fear of being blasted.

 

I understand why I've been blasted for even bringing up anything at all because people have been hurt so very bad by the "church" and it's people of all/most faiths.

 

I have become a little more bold and talk about God more freely now because I can't deny Him (not that I did before), He is such a big part of me...it's like trying not to talk about the person closest to you...you know?

 

It wasn't about fearing rejection because even if a person were to ask me the questions, I just didn't want to talk anymore and didn't care...you know like if a person was exploring various faiths. Feeling that I know what I believe and just became indifferent to where anyone else was in this area.

 

Now I will talk about God/debate because that is who I am...I find it very nonproductive to pound my belief into anyone...if anyone wants God, they know where He is and He knows where they are ....you are way cool Shadow.

[TaraMaiden]

Sigh...Go ahead and PM me the solution to my problems.

you're kidding, right?

we all have to find the solution to our own problems.

It's just that what we see or perceive as being a 'problem' is actually nothing of the kind.

You have problems?

It's up to you to find the solutions.

I have problems too, you know.

I just don't give them the kind of head-space that ends up controlling me.

You think that problems always have to have solutions?

You're looking at it the wrong way.

 

The big question is not finding the solution to the problems.

It's bothering to listen to the problems in the first place.