An Update

[torranceshipman]

Forget the software! Let him sort things out on his own for once.

[Brokenlady]

You just aren't willing to look at the reality are you? Sad. You are willing to loose yourself for ...what exactly?

 

The reality that he isn't going to change? The reality that isn't willing to be loyal to me (or anyone)? What do you mean?

 

On the surface, he talks about wanting to improve our realtionship, and he goes to counseling with me, but his actions say otherwise of course. Still, my heart has historically been tempted to ignore my brain.

 

I don't see myself with him for life. I don't.

[PhoenixRise]

Last night he went grocery shopping for his xW because she was "too sick". This morning, she called him at 5:30 am to barf into the phone and report she was still sick. Recently she left another message about wanting him to come take care of her and possibly take her to the ER. And I'll bet you, he'll take her dramatic a$$ to the ER. I told him: "you know, she will never ever stop trying to bait you into playing hubby". He said that "eventually" his actions would show her to stop that. Eventually!! Whatever.

 

I haven't told him i loved him for the last 2 days because i haven't frankly been feeling it. He hasn't said it either. Today, he just did at the end of the phone call and I just hung up. He's still talking to me about getting a key to the new house and selling my house. All I say right now is uh-huh. I feel like I won't be able to avoid ending things tonight.

 

However, I promised I'd fix his computer at his office and the software won't be in for a few days. Do I wait? It'd be terribly awkward if I tell him I don't want to be with him anymore and then have to fix his system and show him how to use it. Or should I just give him the software he purchased and let him deal with it?

 

And as an aside, it came to my attention last night that I missed an excellent opportunity because of my protracted toxic relationship. The good news is that it says that someone else who knows me well thought I was worth being with (back when he was available). The bad news... he's not available anymore. But maybe that's a good thing. I need some time for myself. At least I know the possibility exists now that I can do better.

 

 

Let him deal with his own software.

 

Brokenlady even if there was no hint of interest from another man. Even if every man within a 100 mile radius of you disappeared off the face of the earth leaving this "man" as your only possible relationship option, your only hope for happiness would be to dump him and be alone.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

BL,

 

You said that he took you on anniversary trips with his wife in another thread. Is that true, that he invited you to travel to be available to him while he was on a trip with his wife?

 

Honey, this doesn't end until YOU end it. When YOU'VE had enough, then you will end it. How much will you take? How can you still care and feel love toward someone who hurts you? How can you continue to hold on to hope and march in toward the same rotten carrot that is dangled in front of you every time?

 

Why do you need to feel that kind of pain. Is it just so that you feel something? How do you treat the people in your life who really love you and want the world for you? Do you take them for granted, push them away?

 

DO NOT sell your home. In fact, do you have a sibling, parent, adult child, that you could sign the home over to so that YOU CANNOT sell it. Please figure out why you want to feel such pain and degradation so that you can put an end to this once and for all.

 

I've read this thread and started to respond a thousand times but it is just so sad. You get it, you see the damage, you admit that you need to be treated this way to feel loved??? I don't know what in the world could have happened to you to want this for yourself, but you are the only person that will EVER be able to get yourself out of this mess. And you're right that without a ton of counseling that you will probably fall for another man just like him. This isn't love, and love doesn't have to come from another person. Love is something that first and foremost you promise yourself. If you don't have a healthy love of self, self-respect, then you can never be in a mutually loving R with even the right person.

 

What's the first step and what is your back-up plan incase that first step fails?

[bentnotbroken]

The reality that he isn't going to change? The reality that isn't willing to be loyal to me (or anyone)? What do you mean?

 

On the surface, he talks about wanting to improve our realtionship, and he goes to counseling with me, but his actions say otherwise of course. Still, my heart has historically been tempted to ignore my brain.

 

I don't see myself with him for life. I don't.

 

 

What I mean is you are willing to take his calls, work on his computer as if nothing he says and does matters. And you are still in counseling with this person. No you probably don't see yourself with him for life because you don't see yourself at all. All you see is him.

[Brokenlady]

BL,

 

You said that he took you on anniversary trips with his wife in another thread. Is that true, that he invited you to travel to be available to him while he was on a trip with his wife?

 

Yes, but that was years ago. He took her away for the weekend - anniversary trip- and got me a hotel room nearby. That was his compromise - he wanted to go with me but HAD to go with her because he wasn't ready to leave. It's totally sick isn't it?

 

Honey, this doesn't end until YOU end it. When YOU'VE had enough, then you will end it. How much will you take? How can you still care and feel love toward someone who hurts you? How can you continue to hold on to hope and march in toward the same rotten carrot that is dangled in front of you every time?

 

I don't want to stay with him. I am just terrified.

 

Why do you need to feel that kind of pain. Is it just so that you feel something? How do you treat the people in your life who really love you and want the world for you? Do you take them for granted, push them away?

 

Both parents were abusive and one is dead. All I really have is my sister. I do not push people away but I think I avoid people sometimes because I am so ashamed of myself.

 

I will not sell my home. I think that's part of how he wants to trap me....and passively shove his xW away bc he can't do it himself. I would never put my kids in that position of being at such risk for disruption because of our awful relationship.

 

I've read this thread and started to respond a thousand times but it is just so sad. You get it, you see the damage, you admit that you need to be treated this way to feel loved??? I don't know what in the world could have happened to you to want this for yourself, but you are the only person that will EVER be able to get yourself out of this mess.

 

Very bad and highly unusual things. IF you really want to know, I'll PM you.

[IfWishesWereHorses]

Very bad and highly unusual things. IF you really want to know, I'll PM you.

 

What I REALLY want is for you to find help so that you can believe in something that is good for you.

 

What is it that you are terrified of? What does he give you? Is it support (financial)? How did you manage your first divorce? Did you have a support system?

[Spark1111]

BL, you sound so beaten, so down, so RESIGNED to life handing you one lemon after another as if YOU DO NOT DESERVE BETTER, or haven't a true clue how to get to there....

 

You sound like an abused child and it breaks my heart, as in many ways, I was one too!

 

Know what saved my life, my sanity, my soul, my self-worth, my future and my ego was individual therapy!

 

On and off for years, whenever I need a tune-up!

 

And it had to be a good therapist! If I didn't click within three visits (rule of thumb) I found another, someone I could tell was helping me.

 

Not drugs, not a new man, not a bad man, but learning to trust and love myself; learning to believe I deserved love and admiration, and happiness for who I was, not what I wasn't.

 

Until I put that childhood to bed, and cried and mourned and forgave my dysfunctional parents, which was the most painful act I ever accomplished, I was doomed to repeat so many of their issues.

 

You can do it girl!

[Brokenlady]

Know what saved my life, my sanity, my soul, my self-worth, my future and my ego was individual therapy!

 

 

Spark, I've been in IC for years. Since that didn't seem to be working, i decided to try medication. I haven't quite found the right dose yet. I think once I do, it'll be easier to for to really put my demons to bed.

 

It just so happened that this man was the perfect storm of dysfunction for me. He represents the father I tried so hard to save from his own poor decisions, and he is equally as manipulative, unempathic, and selfish. I see it now. I wanted to rewrite the past and change the ending. I know now it will not end the way I hoped no matter how hard I tried. But it is hard to accept that I've failed twice (actually more than that if you count past relationships) at the exact same thing.

 

But - once I stop trying to do the impossible, i can feel ok. I've learned a lot about myself. Right now the major problem is accepting reality and acting on that without letting it overwhelm me.

[jthorne]

Let his wife fix his damn computer. You're supposed to be his SO, not freaking Tech Support!!

Seriously. End it. Don't let the software be an excuse to wait or to connect with him again. When the software arrives, refuse it and have it sent back.

 

You say you can't see yourself with him forever. Then why waste one more second of your time? Why? Give me three good reasons to wait around to see if he's gonna get his shyt together. OTOH, why should you stick around to enable him to continue this behavior? You do know that at this point, you're enabling?

Edited May 27, 2010 by jthorne

[Spark1111]

Spark, I've been in IC for years. Since that didn't seem to be working, i decided to try medication. I haven't quite found the right dose yet. I think once I do, it'll be easier to for to really put my demons to bed.

 

It just so happened that this man was the perfect storm of dysfunction for me. He represents the father I tried so hard to save from his own poor decisions, and he is equally as manipulative, unempathic, and selfish. I see it now. I wanted to rewrite the past and change the ending. I know now it will not end the way I hoped no matter how hard I tried. But it is hard to accept that I've failed twice (actually more than that if you count past relationships) at the exact same thing.

 

But - once I stop trying to do the impossible, i can feel ok. I've learned a lot about myself. Right now the major problem is accepting reality and acting on that without letting it overwhelm me.

 

There is a great book, written by two women psychs called "The Knight in Shining Armor Syndrome."

 

KISA are usually abused or emotionally neglected children. Because they cannot save themselves, they set out to save others. What is interesting, is these docs go on to classify the recuees....and the catgories they come from and why. They, too are very damaged, or manipulative, or depressed.

 

It is the perfectly dysfunctional relationship.

 

Try to get your hands on a copy.

[NoIDidn't]

((((BL))))

 

Thinking of you.

 

Hoping that one day you won't see yourself as a "broken lady".

 

I'm rooting for YOU

[Brokenlady]

((((BL))))

 

Thinking of you.

 

Hoping that one day you won't see yourself as a "broken lady".

 

I'm rooting for YOU

 

I almost feel like crying when I read these responses. Thank you so much everyone.

 

I intend to have a chat with him later, give back the engagement ring (to stop any drama with that) and tell him I have to get out. He's out picking up his daughter right now and then we're going to dinner, so I guess it'll be after that.

 

His xW is pulling more histrionics today and of course he's largely taking the bait. He must notice something is up because he keeps emphasizing how he's supposedly now trying to have boundaries with her (after he bought groceries for her last night - right). Too little, too late, really.

 

Before he left I said to him that I can't live like this with this crap with his xW for another 10 years. He said it won't even last 2 years. Oh joy. So I guess I'm supposed to wait around for 2 years and then maybe he'll start giving a crap about my needs. Please. Today may not be the best of days - he had closing on an exceedingly expensive house today (the one we were supposed to all live in together me and my kids and him and his). So I fully expect he'll guilt-trip me about "letting" him buy this house. I dipped my feet in the pool today there and I swear I could've had a breakdown right there.

 

Anyway, I guess there's never going to be a good time. And I find myself increasingly upset about what I've missed out on in ,life by being so caught up in his drama and trying to make him love me the way i need him to. I better stop, I am going to cry.

 

Man oh man I wish I could go crash at a friend's house tonight. I just want to run away.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Brokenlady

[PhoenixRise]

I almost feel like crying when I read these responses. Thank you so much everyone.

 

I intend to have a chat with him later, give back the engagement ring (to stop any drama with that) and tell him I have to get out. He's out picking up his daughter right now and then we're going to dinner, so I guess it'll be after that.

 

His xW is pulling more histrionics today and of course he's largely taking the bait. He must notice something is up because he keeps emphasizing how he's supposedly now trying to have boundaries with her (after he bought groceries for her last night - right). Too little, too late, really.

 

Before he left I said to him that I can't live like this with this crap with his xW for another 10 years. He said it won't even last 2 years. Oh joy. So I guess I'm supposed to wait around for 2 years and then maybe he'll start giving a crap about my needs. Please. Today may not be the best of days - he had closing on an exceedingly expensive house today (the one we were supposed to all live in together me and my kids and him and his). So I fully expect he'll guilt-trip me about "letting" him buy this house. I dipped my feet in the pool today there and I swear I could've had a breakdown right there.

 

Anyway, I guess there's never going to be a good time. And I find myself increasingly upset about what I've missed out on in ,life by being so caught up in his drama and trying to make him love me the way i need him to. I better stop, I am going to cry.

 

Man oh man I wish I could go crash at a friend's house tonight. I just want to run away.

 

Brokenlady

 

Don't let yourself get sidetracked feeling sad about what you have missed. Focus on the life you can have 6 months from now, 1 year, 5 years, 10 years from now.

 

You don't want what you have now to become your future.

 

If you cut this dead weight now and put in the time alone to heal you can have a really lovely future. I have see it quoted here that you can never change your past but you can absolutely change/direct your future.

 

 

He is a big boy. He is responsible for his own real estate purchases. You owe him nothing here.

 

Focus on your own life and your own healing. You have said that you know he will not be your future. Don't you think it is time for you to start deciding what WILL be your future?

[silverplanets]

I almost feel like crying when I read these responses. Thank you so much everyone.

 

I intend to have a chat with him later, give back the engagement ring (to stop any drama with that) and tell him I have to get out. He's out picking up his daughter right now and then we're going to dinner, so I guess it'll be after that.

 

His xW is pulling more histrionics today and of course he's largely taking the bait. He must notice something is up because he keeps emphasizing how he's supposedly now trying to have boundaries with her (after he bought groceries for her last night - right). Too little, too late, really.

 

Before he left I said to him that I can't live like this with this crap with his xW for another 10 years. He said it won't even last 2 years. Oh joy. So I guess I'm supposed to wait around for 2 years and then maybe he'll start giving a crap about my needs. Please. Today may not be the best of days - he had closing on an exceedingly expensive house today (the one we were supposed to all live in together me and my kids and him and his). So I fully expect he'll guilt-trip me about "letting" him buy this house. I dipped my feet in the pool today there and I swear I could've had a breakdown right there.

 

Anyway, I guess there's never going to be a good time. And I find myself increasingly upset about what I've missed out on in ,life by being so caught up in his drama and trying to make him love me the way i need him to. I better stop, I am going to cry.

 

Man oh man I wish I could go crash at a friend's house tonight. I just want to run away.

 

Yet you are not running away BL, you are doing what you need to do.

 

And you are aware of the guilt trips and button pressing.

 

And perhaps most imporantly, you are aware of your needs and aware that you are not happy.

 

I can only guess at how difficult it is right now for you and how much strength it is taking to keep putting one foot forward.

 

Maybe you will speak tonight, maybe not, but I don't think you're broken ...

 

I think you're strong, I think you do care and yes, your history night well means you are strongly influenced to save others, but that doesn't make you bad or broken.

 

Perhaps for so long it has been about him, his life, him and her, his/their drama etc that no-one has shone even a gentle light on you, how you feel, are you happy, what your needs are.

 

That's a dark, lonely place to be and perhaps it's just that a little voice in that place is finally screaming "what about me ?????"

 

Be safe and best wishes

 

Chris

[White Flower]

I know I'm coming in late so be patient as I post a little at a time. You said something interesting here...

I don't think he's confused at all. He still wants us both (he admits to this)and keeps trying new configurations to make that happen. (1st it was keeping me behind xW's back, then it was keeping xW behind my back, now it's keeping both out in the open). Naturally this is never met with happy acceptance from me and so he says I'm unreasonable, damaged from childhood, and not accepting of him as he is.

He is a narcissist; a selfish, lowly pig. He expects the world to adjust to his wants but doesn't expect to adjust the needs and wants of those he claims he loves. We have that in common as my exH is a narcissist.

 

The problem is you keep taking him back knowing how he is but expecting different results. You can't change him. You can only change you. One day you will say enough is enough and be rid of this jerk.

 

Hugs BL.

[White Flower]

Thank you Hazy. I've come to the conclusion that he isn't worth it. I don't even know who he is - but I do know that the mirage I fell in love with is long gone. What is left is a hopelessly selfish, unempathic man bent on using both me and his ex-wife for his satisfaction. I can't make him into the person I thought he was, I can't even help him see what he is.

 

Jeez, why do we women think we can always change a man. When we finally realize we can't, it is then that we can walk away. I'm so glad you are finally seeing it.

 

He called me today after several days of silence and I rejected the call. He left no voicemail and made no ther attempts. He is probably pissed upon having discovered that I deleted both of the accounts we used during the affair. He liked to look back at all the love emails i sent him. I don't think he deserves that part of me anymore and frankly I want to erase as much of the affair itself as I can. I want to put it all behind me and not be tempted myself to wallow in nostalgia. So it's all gone. Every nice and nasty email he ever sent me. Vindictive? Maybe a little.

 

 

Vindictive maybe, but very useful. It keeps it in the past.

 

Anyway, my goal now is to think of him as little as possible. So far, redirecting my thoughts has kept me out of dire despair, but it's very difficult. One thing that has helped is I called our couples counselor to let her know what happened. Essentially she confirmed my opinion that he will never change and is basically a selfish douchebag. It meant a lot to me because he always blames me and this is the 1st time I've been able to get an opinion from someone who knows us both. It helps.

Excellent that you got the second opinion, so glad you got that. exMM's IC decided not to bring me in after mulling it over (which was very telling actually) so I wouldn't get that same back up as you have. With your abusive childhood, I'm sure you found this backup to be invaluable.

[White Flower]

Maybe part of overcoming your past has been being able to assert yourself and stand up for what you want. That is great - but not where he is concerned. Fighting for him and winning him on your terms is not a good way to assert yourself. Because hes not who you thought he was. And you cant change him.

Amen sister. You HAVE asserted yourself, you even 'won' him...for a while. But not on your terms and not really the man you want because he didn't turn out to be the man you wanted so let's call it a small victory.

 

Honey, go out and find a BETTER man. There lies your greater victory. Consider exMM your trial run. Now go win the best victory of all!

[White Flower]

AND THE WORST he lacks the b*lls to keep his children safe from an emotionally abusive wife.

 

You have to ask why he would forsake his own children just to appease his exW. Why allow your own kids to suffer just because you like (insert present tense activity) your ex?

 

I know you have questioned already if you really want him around your children. Sweetie, if he treats his own kids that way, how will he treat yours? It's not just your gut, it's us thinking that way too.

[White Flower]

Oh Please!!!!! Blame blame the xw...metal illness blah blah blah. What does this say about you? You are no better than she thats for sure. After all the crap this creep has put you through, you are STILL there. ..My goodness get a new therapist..

Just to be fair to BL and other OPs, sometimes we have inside information and know it to be true. Not saying many MM don't lie because they certainly do, but some of us actually know what is going on.

[White Flower]

People who lack empathy lack empathy.

God, do I love this line.

 

BL, you more than anyone here DESERVES a man who can empathize with your past, with your childhood, your lack of family support. You need an ANCHOR, a man who has your back and will be supportive of you and your children. Your DM simply is not your anchor and support. Never has been, and according to your counselor, never will be.

[White Flower]

 

BL you really don't need to be part of that pathology. You owe it to yourself to live a happy, NORMAL life, not one where you're constantly questioning your own sanity and reasonableness. If he's not able or willing to shape up - then move on. IF he manages to fix himself, then you can consider taking him back - but you don't need him while he's trying to make his brokenness YOUR problem.

 

(((((hugs)))))

BL, I survived that way for 25 years before I finally woke up. I had to make a change or die a slow death. It was time to live.

 

My niece visited a few days ago and I happened to show her a picture of myself with my ex at my 20 year reunion. She asked if it was hard to look at and I said no, I felt absolutely nothing. Indifference is a gift and I know one day you'll feel this for DM.

[White Flower]

Very very astute. There is definitely a sense that this couldn't possibly all be for nothing, could it? It is sometimes easier to just wish on the star than to give up and have to grieve all that I've lost because of him and my invesment in him. That grief, when I glimpse at it, is overwhelming.

 

And he dangles that last thought all the time- about how I will regret it when I see him with someone else, finally all healed. He makes sure that I know that I'm replaceable on one hand and that he'd miss me terribly on the other; it's a twisted way of encouraging me to sacrifice my happiness for him so that he doesn't have to give up anything more (that poor, poor martyr).

OWoman once spoke to me about investment. You have invested years in this guy and you really want to see the payoff.

 

But sometimes the market crashes or the investment gets spoiled. Cashing it out means taking a loss and the deal isn't so sweet. Only you know if the time is right to cash out and call your losses, but weigh the pros and cons very dilligently.

[jj33]

Sweetie. I hope you did the deed last night and that you are going to come here for support and congratulations that you did the right thing.

 

But even if you didnt...

 

"Bad and unusual things" very very bad and unusual things.

 

And you are here. You are an adult (you lived through it because you are strong stronger than you realize).

 

You are a mother who loves her children. You are an educated professional. You are loved and admired by many even if you cant really see it.

 

So despite all the bad and unusual things, you have risen above them. You have survived and YOU have flourished.

 

The memory of those bad and unusual things may never go away and the scars may be there forever but you have survived and flourished.

 

Say that to yourself. YOU HAVE SURVIVED AND FLOURISHED.

 

You are a wonderful wonderful person.

 

No matter what happened in the past you have managed to go on.

 

Now the last bit that you need to muster is the courage to forgive yourself from not being able to stop those bad and unusual things from happening.

 

Whatever it was, it wasnt your fault and you dont have to punish yourself forever.

 

Many people who commit murder are eventually pardoned or released from prison. Whatever blame you place on yourself for whatever happened, you need to pardon yourself now.

 

You need to grant yourself permission to leave this abusive situatoin.

 

You have paid whatever price you feel you need to pay.

 

You deserve to be free of this man. Your past does not have to determine your future.

 

Whoever hurt you in the past cant hurt you anymore. You are an adult now.

 

And as an adult you have the same power to say (about this man) I am NOT going to let you hurt me anymore. I am out of here.

 

Big hugs

 

jj

[Brokenlady]

It didn't quite work out like I thought. I told him I was having a really hard time with all the hurt he inflicted on me, that I can't stand that he STILL refuses to cut the cord with her, and that I can't see myself living like that. Hurts too much to still feel like I'm still sharing him, still competing- especially when I have him telling me he still is trying to have it both ways but he expects he'll be able to stop all this within 2 years. He even admitted again that he's waiting for her to get married again to feel like he can stop babying her.

 

I said I need a NC break. He was crying and shaking and said point blank he will do whatever I ask, just tell him what actions I need to see. (That was interesting because he never said that kind of thing before - its always been "I'm doing the best i can, why can't you see that? Look at all I gave up for you. You're a bottomless pit of need, I just can't make you happy. I wish you'd be patient with me....etc")

 

I told him that I'm not sure there's anything he can do now even if he is finally ready to do the action because I may never get over all the damage that's been done. I don't think he can ever make it up to me - that ship sailed long ago and I have no trust left. I am so tired of his xW's drama, but moreso with the fact that he encourages it by reinforcing her histrionics. And - how do I ever forget what I now know he is capable of? How he will sleep over at her house just to get back at me when he's mad, how he can be so indignant about continuing behaviors that hurt me, etc.,

 

I didn't give him the ring back yet because I felt so bad as he was so upset, and I don't think I made it clear that this is a permanent break. But it took my time to do that when I ended my marriage too. Despite all the pain he has caused me, i do want him to be happy. I just wish I could have been with me before he ruined everything. All things in time.