I feel like I'm mourning

[Wolvesbaned]

I feel like I'm mourning ... but I shouldn't be because he still wants to try. My husband and I will be together for 5 years this June, married for 4. We've lived under a rock for the last few years, actually me and him is how it has always been. But recently he's been more sociable, and there's nothing wrong with that -it's just a change and he knows how hard it is for me to adjust.

 

We're both full-time students and in the last few months our schedules had been the busiest it has ever been. That coupled with miscellaneous other necessary importants (with deadlines), we just didn't make enough quality time for each other.

 

We communicate our issues and try to work it out; him being insensitive, me overly sensitive, my anger, his unadmitted selfishness. I also have trust issues with men, which he knew from the start and simple misunderstandings in the beginning played with my fears.

 

He is an honest man, righteous to the point of me not knowing if he is so because of me or that he just can't see himself doing something outrightly wrong because it isn't him. Nevertheless, I shouldn't complain, this trait of his is one of the reasons why I married him.

 

A trait of his I thought we shared was friendships with the opposite sex. I was lead to believe (though with no real fault of his) that he felt the same way as I: new friendships of the opposite sex outside of marriage leads to complications. As I said, we lived under a rock and so we never dealt with it before. But recently, he's met someone at school that he's gotten along with, which in itself is quite rare. Currently they do not talk about personal issues, but he admittedly said he'd like to.

 

They share the same class and study throughout a 3 hour break twice a week. He says it is purely studying, but a lunch falls between their study time and my fears have gotten the best of me.

 

His initial use of words ("it's important to me", "it will affect me", "we have an understanding" ...) about the new 3-month friendship and the fact that this just sprung up had driven me insane. I had also met someone a few months prior to him meeting her, someone I got along with and thought highly of, but because I am married, I did not pursue anything further outside of school - it would lead to complications, period.

 

Currently, this is what I'm dealing with. I want to really show him that I trust him. He feels like I've always questioned him, even before this and needs trust. A few days ago, for the first time, he admitted his doubts about us. In the past I've always been the one with doubts, and I'm selfish myself to expect him to never have them, but it hurts. It hurts so much. Now when I finally capture perspective (something I didn't have a lot of) he's the one with doubts.

 

So now, I'm trying extra hard to accept his new friendship, make more time for each other, plan more things together, eat together, sleep & wake together and overall ignore my needs for reassurement because I love him.

 

I'm sorry for the rant guys. As you can see this is my firts post and I just really needed to let this out & it has helped. I will now press <submit> and see what happens.

 

<-- I had to add this

[Kriz]

Find balance. Don't be naive but don't be obsessive either. Overtly jealous behaviour is always a turnoff, but it can't hurt to check on him as long as it's done in a subtle way.

 

Visit him some time during his lunch break, talk to his friend, you'll see wether you have a reason to be jealous or no.

[Wolvesbaned]

Thanks for the advice about being subtle about it. I never even thought of that as I'd feel bad just asking. The deal is this, it's his first real relationship and even me simply asking in the past, "Is there something I should know" is already too much for him. Like I said before, we'd lived under a rock and never experienced this before.

 

I can understand in theory that he thinks he's NOT doing anything wrong because he's keeping their conversations strictly about school. But WHY can anyone please tell my why he doesn't see that this is hurting me so. I'm a reasonable person, I will not ask him to shelter himself from the world, I don't believe that is love or right. But how can he feel that there is nothing wrong with going to her of all people for advice about "us"? Not only do I find this wrong, but inappropriate! He has kept it in check and has not actually discussed our problems but by saying things like just play on my fears.

 

Nevermind this is killing me and I am dealing with it but geez why can't he try. For instance, today is the second day I've left him a card in the morning to read. I guess I just needed something, is writing a note to say "thanks for your card" too much to ask for?

 

How long am I going to keep this up?

[Errol]

It sounds like he is being honest with you, or you wouldn't know what he talks about with this girl. The fact that they share a classroom and study together has maybe made him comfortable in talking to her about some personal issues -- maybe he wants a female point of view and is talking/asking about your personal life because he does love you and is sincerely tring to find some answers, support, or advice to help the two of you.

 

Just like you came here to this board. The difference being we are 2-dimensional strangers and this girl is actually in front of him.

 

 

One of your comments; "Is there something I should know" can be perceived as an accusation. You might not mean it that way, but sometimes phrases - even said in a light tone of voice - still trigger defense mechinisms in people.

 

Why not tell him that you feel uncomfortable with his new friendship and admit that it is your problem because of your own history and nothing that he has done, and ask him for a little extra reassurance right now while you are dealing with your emotions.

[Wolvesbaned]

Errol, I have been thinking about your post and it has helped me greatly.

 

My old comments (prior to the current situation) about "is there something I should know" was perceived as an accusation, and the tone used was flat, but he thought it accusatory. In fact he used those same words, and a defense mechanism was triggered, although we were both unaware of it.

 

Thank you for shedding some light. From his perspective, it makes sense in feeling comfortable talking to her about it since she is his only woman friend, and the reason does lie on finding understanding about "us". He may not see it as inappropriate because he really thinks there is nothing questionable in their friendship.

 

My initial reaction about him knowing it is me that needs to work it out: is that he knows, I explain to him all the time. But I know now, from how our talks develop, that he may NOT know this. I need to really make it clear to him and the reassurance too (though with that "I" think is crystal clear, but again, we cover so much ground when we talk that it might have gotten lost).

 

As for meeting her, we were invited to her birthday just recently, so the meet will be in just a few days. I'm hoping this too will help.

[Wolvesbaned]

Holy crap. I hate living like this!

 

So he calls me before his second class and I am so happy because of Errol's post. And granted we were only able to talk for like 3 minutes, and he might have misunderstood what I was trying to say & or I might have not summarized it well. But I am now posting my most recent letter to him:

 

 

1:33p 1/22/04

 

I thought I understood you. I thought that after reading the advice I got, I finally understood that you have good intentions about us. I still don’t feel comfortable with all of this, but I’m dealing with it, period. What was driving me insane is that fact that you find nothing inappropriate with talking to her about “our problems” about her! I could not understand how you found it “right” at all. By someone’s comments I thought I understood you. But how you responded to me has gotten me asking even more questions. Do you just want to hear her opinion about all this and does it have anything to do with you wanting help or perspective about fixing our situation? Does your reasons for wanting to talk to her have anything to do with us at all? Right now I don’t know. Our last conversation had me to believe it is just about you. You real motivation is not trying to better understand our situation but to just hear her opinion on, “I feel I’m settling... is that right?”

 

Am I right for feeling like this? Is it an actual potential reason? Am I off base at all? I honestly want to be off base but I want the truth above all.

 

Do you understand that by just wanting her opinion and not caring to actually achieve a better understanding about us is like asking for her to understand you. It really has nothing to do with me - it has nothing to do with your marriage or you wanting to “work things out” like you say.

 

<<now I must wait 5-6 hours for an answer>>

[cdn]

They share the same class and study throughout a 3 hour break twice a week. He says it is purely studying, but a lunch falls between their study time and my fears have gotten the best of me.

 

Currently they do not talk about personal issues, but he admittedly said he'd like to.

 

A few days ago, for the first time, he admitted his doubts about us.

 

I hate to be the voice of doom and gloom but I don't like the sound of this. For what it's worth, I think he is being honest with you. He has admitted he wants to spend time with this woman and that he wants the friendship to become more personal. He has also said that he has doubts about his relationship with you (which developed, apparently, subsequent to his new friendship) and that he has shared these with his friend. So the problem here isn't whether he is being honest with you but whether he is being honest with himself as to what course he hopes his new friendship will follow. Unfortunately, I believe that, if this friendship continues, it will develop into something more.

 

What is the situation with you that needs fixing?

[Wolvesbaned]

I may have had doubts about our marriage, but in noway did it ever remotely involve any other man. I ditched school for a reason today, and this actually isn't it. It's so hard to function ...

 

I'm hoping my next post doesn't appear at the coping section.

 

Thanks

[cdn]

I'm sorry. :-(

 

Feel free to pm me.

[Wolvesbaned]

cdn,

 

Everything in your post explained my fears. And it may be the reality and the end of my relationship. But I don't know for sure, and if it's wishful thinking, or giving him the benefit of the doubt, or trust that I really didn't marry such an idiot, then let it be because I think I owe it that, I owe him that.

 

I've ventured though that road before, and he passionately claims I just don't understand him, and that he loves me, and she really has nothing to do with it all.

 

He claims he wants to talk to her about problems, but he hasn't and won't actually do so because I am so adamantly against it (though he does not understand why I feel this way).

 

I've explained to him how people usually view someone "new" as wonderful, especially when compared to the rough-times at home. He says he's aware of this and not idiotic enough to actually consider this. If in fact he fesses up either by 1) admittingly lying to me 2) he's actually having "feelings" that do not belong within a healthy marriage, then I will have to end it. We are lucky we do not have children, it would literally kill me to not be with this man but I love him enough to want him happy. More importantly, I hope I can muster enough love for myself to set into action all that I believe about "self-worth":

 

Simply put, I know myself. I can not live with it. It will eat at my core and I strongly believe in not destroying myself for someone that just doesn't "love" me enough.

 

<<I left him a message on his cellphone, if he gets it on time we may be able to hash this out in a few hours. Honestly, I know what he'll say... that he *thought* we've been through this before and that it has already been resolved. I hope he can find honesty within himself. He damn better well find some meditation techniques. There's a time to be selfish too.>>

[AprilFool]

I don't like the idea of my husband having any female friends that he actually TALKS to.

 

On the flip side, though, there was this guy at work (older, and of a different race) that I used to confide my marrital problems in quite often. He would tell me how silly my husband was for certain things he did, and often would give me advice. Eventually, he got a little TOO close, and started actually ASKING me how my marriage was doing. Then, he started trying to hug me every time he saw me.

 

I got quite disgusted....I was only looking for guidance from a man who'd been in a marriage way longer than me and my husband, and who would understand where my husband was coming from on subjects.

 

Apparently, he was looking for a young girl who was depressed because of marital problems, that he could "console".

 

Needless to say, I quit talking to him at all, and I avoided him when I could.

 

Maybe your husband truely is looking for the female perspective. Your marriage is much more communicative than mine on his end. He is willing to tell you about his friends, and conversations, where as I do NOT tell my husband when I "talk about him behind his back."

 

Quite frankly, my husband will ask me not to mention our problems outside our home. I am quite confident he won't do it, but I need guidance. I did stop talking about my marriage outside the home for a while, but I decided if he can look at porn despite my numerous requests for him not to, then I can talk about our problems.

 

You said your husband is very religeous? Would that merrit him not to cheat. I would be really angry and hurt if my husband accused me of having feelings for someone else, when that is entirely untrue. Don't accuse, until you know the facts. No use to try to cut him off at the pass either. He obviously thinks you're crazy to even fathom that he will cheat. Therefore, warning him isn't really going to help. Just if he cheats, deal with that then.

 

You can ask him not to be friends with her any more. He can say no. If I asked my husband to stop doing something, he will throw a fit, and say that he can do whatever he wants, but in the end, he tends to not do what I asked him not to do. I'm usually more important than whatever it is that I'm asking him to give up.

 

Except porn....I asked him to not look at that, and he agreed quickly, but did it behind my back.

 

so if he agrees quickly, he's probably going to do it behind your back.

[Wolvesbaned]

I've married a mutant alien. For a woman that's overly sensitive, I surely indulge his theories of love and equality. But I like making sense myself, though if it were the other way around, would not put it above all.

 

He is not cheating on me, emotionally or physically and in his mind, has no plans in doing so. He just believes that if you love someone and know your priorities, there's no harm in friendships. In hearing his stance and all the logic he can gather about it, I’ve argued that it lacks a few elements: reality, time and the fundamental differences of gender. He puts his theories above hurting me. So engrossed into what he thinks is right. Yet still claims to love me wholeheartedly and wants to work things out. A contradiction in itself. The thing is that I don't really see anything wrong with getting along with someone of the opposite sex (especially since he claims he's respecting my wishes by not talking about ANYTHING personal). The problem for me is this is not a good time to make huge changes! I married his for his bullheadedness but geez...

 

We usually work things out ourselves. That’s how it’s always been, until now. When I first posted here, I literally just did a search and found this site (maybe read one response) without really looking into it (like I usually do). Suffice to say, I am so very glad I found Loveshack !

 

Thanks guys & gals!

*group hug*

[AprilFool]

~squeeeeeze~

[amerikajin]

A guy's perspective here.

 

I think you're jealous, but jealousy isn't always unwarranted. The problem is, right now, you don't know whether it's warranted or not.

 

The first thing you should acknowledge is that on a subconscious level (probably for both of you) there are problems in your marriage which need to be addressed. Strong couples don't live in fear of their partner fooling around on them. It's only when they sense that they are adrift that suspicions begin to arise.

 

You said it yourself that you have had doubts about your marriage. Chances are, he's probably picked up on the situation as you have, even if he hasn't said anything to you about it. That doesn't mean he's consciously pursuing this woman, but there are occasionally some subtle signs that people give to each other. I think by him telling you that he has a friend, he's testing you to see how you'd react. Maybe it's his way of letting you know that there are other women out there if it comes to that...I don't know. Worse, I don't think either of you know what you're doing either, because I also get the sense that the communication in your relationship has been missing for quite a while. You're both communicating with each other through the wrong channels. You're communicating through jealousy and accusations; he's communicating through "friendship" with another woman - and for what it's worth, I don't think he's fooling around...yet.

 

I think you two need to talk. But when I say "talk", I don't think you should bring up the issue of his friend first. You approach it by trying to get an overview of the entire relationship itself. Couples find ways to work s*** out and over time, successful ones devise their tactics and strategies. I used to work for a guy who was married for 40 years before he died of a heart attack.

 

He told me "Not every day is a walk in the park, but we love each other. The most important thing we do is communicate. Every night, we set aside about 30 minutes to an hour of just talk time. Whatever's on our minds, we get it off our chests. We don't go to bed angry at each other." I had almost identical advice from some cousins of mine who were married for 60 years. "Sometimes we yell and holler at each other, but we never go to bed angry." So when I told this to my ex (a licensed mental health counselor) she dismissed it as old fashioned junk. She's been divorced once and our little live-in relationship didn't last either. My advice, the best advice I can give you, always talk the advice from people who've had successful marriages over those who haven't...regardless of whatever letters in the alphabet stand behind their names.

[Wolvesbaned]

amerikajin,

 

Thank you for your advice. You are right, we are not communicating through the right channels. We both need to look at the whole picture, but right now I need reassurance because of my fears and how this current situation of ours has unfolded. And that's the problem, because although it may be clear to him that his new acquaintance is not the core of our problems, it is an added aspect for me. He needs to understand this, and many times I do wish we had an older couple to talk with because I sincerely feel that if he just knew how other people are and how they dealt with things, he wouldn't think I'm asking for too much.

 

We've always talked through everything in the past. Talks that would last hours each day, at times he is even more long-lived than I am. Within the past few weeks we have literally spent hours each day talking about aspects of what is currently happening. We communicate differently and so our talks have not been very efficient in his eyes, but it has helped me. It's hard for me to deal with change in general, and honestly, I've been a wreck trying to understand him and what's happening.

 

I've always had fears he has never showed me reason for. That is my problem, and although he's always known of it, he does not deal with it in a way I'd like him to. He never says what he doesn't mean and so he feels that by saying it and repeats it too and ... god am I asking for too much?!

 

A lot of our arguments come down to rubbing each other the wrong way. For instance, Monday was a holiday and so we had breakfast out at the Zoo and spent all day there and later quickly visited a vineyard. It was wonderful! We had so much fun and we both greatly enjoyed it. The next day we had class and we call each other to find out what time we'll be home (as usual) and I am so happy so I wanted to tell him how I appreciated our outing and that by spending more time together, like we had, actually helped me deal with the changes.

 

Instead of understanding this for what it is worth, he completely misunderstands by thinking I am proclaiming that I am completely over it and responds with something like "I don't think you can say that you're over it now... (along those lines)". He doesn’t understand how I can be hurt by his reaction, until we talk for another 3 hours and come to the conclusion that he spoke to soon, and that he was just frustrated because he thought we had everything understood many talks ago, feeling like he’s been repeating everything just to explain it again. As if I was leading him to believe that it’s all understood now but it really isn’t. This is yet another aspect of our relationship where I feel like I am supposed to have everlasting understanding and patience.

 

Does this make sense to anyone? By writing this out it really makes it seem like we make mountains out of manholes. (Is that even the right saying?)

[Wolvesbaned]

BTW, I am meeting her today for her birthday dinner. He was at his lab all night last night and she was there also. Her boyfriend picked her up for dinner and dropped her back off at the lab. He worked so late I was worried, but she apparently stayed at the lab to finish up with her boyfriend accompanying her.

 

If I didn't have a similar lab assignment in the past that required even more time than this I would have obsessed over it.

 

Note that I used the term acquaintance instead of friend in my prior post as my husband's definition for friend is my definition for acquaintance.

 

THAT'S IT! No more! I need to study and do something productive. I've literally driven myself insane the last few days.

 

But thank you guys! This is serious therapy for me. I started to explain to a friend of mine that called the other day (someone I really don't share any of my problems with for a reason) and I regretted saying anything because she apparently uses Jerry Springer as a bible. Anyway, as amerikajin said, seeking advice from people that actually have successful relationships is the way to go. I've yet to run into one of those... until then Loveshack.

[Wolvesbaned]

One last tidbit of information: people usually come to us for advice.

 

Oooh those were the days!

[amerikajin]

What I see here is an all-too familiar situation. It's easy for couples to get themselves into a rut. If the communication is bad, then the smallest of things can become a fuse for an explosive confrontation. Residual builds up over time if it isn't thoroughly cleaned, and after a while, one or both couples become despondent, and eventually, one or even both people begin acting out. Of course cheating isn't right, but I do think there are times when a cheater may still have legitimate grievances against the aggrieved spouse; it's just that cheating is absolutely the wrong way to go about solving whatever problems exist. It's a form of revenge, and revenge doesn't make relationships strong. Communication, does.

 

If the expert is good, a marriage counselor can help, but be forewarned: they aren't magicians. I think you still have to make sure you both put effort into resolving this situation. Right now it seems like you're so worried about what he may or may not do with this woman, but you should be glad that you know about her. It's the one he casually refers to and "occasionally" meets that you have to worry about if things get to that point.

 

My advice for you is to try to not pester him about this woman. It only reinforces the fact that you have problems trusting him right now, and even if he doesn't say so, he deeply resents that. At the same time, you have a right to tell him how you feel when he makes comments to you like the one you referenced in one of your last posts (about how things haven't changed).

 

At the risk of gendertyping, I think men think whereas women feel - and I don't mean that negatively. I think there are things that women pick up intuitively by observing the fine details that we men often miss. Your uncanny ability to know what's inside our heads never ceases to amaze me. I'm just saying that you have to look at this from his point of view if you want to understand him better. He's a man. Men have pride. Saying you don't trust a man wounds his pride, because believe it or not, the majority of men actually try to be good husbands. Our attitude is "If there's nothing going on between me and another women, what's there to worry about?" What women intuitively understand - long before a man ever could - is that certain conditions can be conducive to a fling if a man and a woman spend enough time in one another's presence.

 

You both have to have perspective on this one. Try to see it from his angle. Reassure him that you trust him and maybe concede a little ground. Give him a good backrub. Make him feel like a man - remind him that you can give him something no other woman could. Don't go for broke at first. Warm him up a little and take it step by step. As the communication channels open, you'll probably find that he'll be in a better mood to listen if you don't come at him too strong. Again, get some tips from people who've been there and made it work.

[Wolvesbaned]

Our attitude is "If there's nothing going on between me and another women, what's there to worry about?" What women intuitively understand - long before a man ever could - is that certain conditions can be conducive to a fling if a man and a woman spend enough time in one another's presence.

 

You hit the nail on the head. But unfortunately, we had issues before this little friendship, I have to admit that. It's just hard for me to focus on our issues when this is sooo new to me and bothers me so, for the reasons that you stated.

 

In our discussions, this is the thing we are not communicating about. As he is concentrating on our "real" issues, and I'm concentrating on handling this new relationship of his. The thing is, he really isn't doing anything wrong. It makes sense, they used to help teach a class (TA) together, they have the same class now, same break, same lab, and they get along. He is right, if it were the other way around, and it was me and the person I had previously gotten to know (the one I never emailed after our class was over) who shared a similar schedule and demanding work load, I wouldn't think there is anything wrong with studying with him, and granted, it falls during lunchtime, would also eat together during studying.

 

He doesn't go out of his way to be with her. In fact, I met her, her boyfriend and friends last night. They are a respectable bunch. She is more of a girl, in my eyes, than a woman, and I was a little disappointed because he thinks she is a lot like him. I know it is just first impressions, but I think highly of him, and there is more to him than that! Throughout dinner I was thinking to myself, "this is what I was killing myself over!" - refering to not just her, but the bunch in general, as most are classmates/lab mates.

 

I'd gotten to know her a bit, and she is nice, not the blunt person my husband explained. In fact, by the looks of her, I could chew her up and spit her out. It makes me wonder, had he only been saying that because of how I explained my friend (the one I didn't email).

 

After last night, I thought it would be easier for me to deal with this. But it isn't and I'm affraid it won't be easy as long as he is spending more time studying with her than quality time with me. Our schedules are tight. It's not just school work and reading, and group work for me (granted I'm not working this semester, because I'm taking more classes than the norm) but he has aspirations (we both do, actually) of further schooling and right now is stressing the application process, coupled with the most demanding school quarter, occasionally volunteering and working all day Sundays, we literally don't have much free time.

 

I'm on a semester system and school just started for me, thank goodness because I don't know how I would be dealing with this once it gets busy. I'm not gonna ask him to go out of his way and avoid the only person he has gotten along with. But he has to understand that this is NEW ... for the last 5 years it was exclusively just me and him. Hell, when we visited his sister for the holidays, that was new for me.

 

I've called my healthcare provider and got the number to their counseling services. I don't know why I waited so long. I will go visit the Zoo now and see how it'll help me deal with things (according their website, being with animals can be highly therapeutic). I need to stop obsessing about this. Especialy when he has had the patience. I suggested to buy a gift for her, and he didn't forget to buy me something too. I should focus on his efforts. I should try to be more fair & not damn him for something I can also see myself doing. Why isn't it right when he does things and I see "right" when I do?

 

The thing is he's the one spending time with someone new. I'm not. And this is all new.

[amerikajin]

This discussion is insightful for me and it reinforces some thoughts I've had for a while. I used to be among the more politically-correct, "open-minded" people who thought that women and men are really the same. In fact, we really ARE different. I think a lot of it is conditioned, but I don't know if all of it is. It seems like most women I know have problems with jealousy at some point or another. It's funny how they always see other women in the picture as competition and they always try to rub them out any way they can.

 

A personal story. My ex was jealous of both of my previous girlfriends because I had had a sexual history with them (stupid of me to tell her about that in retrospect - I should have lied). Anyway, Laura, the most recent of the two, had become just a friend somewhere along the way and actually started dating my former boss and now good friend of mine (and now they're currently engaged). One time when both of us met up with a large group of people at a work-related convention, my friend and I and my ex decided to go out with a group of people for dinner. The booze started flowing and we started talking a lot. As it turns out, both my ex and Laura were mental health specialists (just coincidence, I promise). When Laura (who wasn't there) became the subject of conversation, my ex just opened up and started ripping her to shreds right in front of everyone, saying things like "I'm sorry...she's not a real therapist." Worried about how my friend felt, I jumped in and said "Hey, careful." Everyone at the table could clearly sense the vibes of jealousy coming from her.

 

When we got back to the hotel room, we got into a big time argument over what had transpired that night. The funny thing was, I had basically thought of it as water under the bridge and was wanting to go back and relax and have a good night together. Instead, I got an earful about how I was "defending her".

 

Be careful with your jealousy, Wolves. It's a relationship killer over time. It's one major reason why I couldn't stand living with her anymore, because like I said, every man needs to feel like he's respected and appreciated. Most men - despite all the crap about how men are dogs - try hard to be good mates. At times, our perspectives are different and it leads to gaps in communication. But the gaps aren't closed by pounding a man's pride into the dirt and telling how you're right and he's wrong. Like I say, the resentment will build. You may win the argument, but you'll lose his faith in you as a good partner. If you're jealous without cause, that's a problem YOU have to deal with. That's not to say that this situation is entirely your fault - I don't know one way or the other. I'm not saying men don't get jealous (we can become insanely jealous). I'm just saying, control your jealousy.