Control

[Gunny376]

It is my belief that its our fear of being weak and vulnerable ~ that makes us weak and vulnerable.

 

That's how we get caught up in depression and despair. We postpone it, and put it to the side until it comes a haunting us!

 

Be it war, combat, sexual molestation, spousal abuse, we cope with it and deal with it the best we can at the time, but we position it for the most part ~ only to deal with it latter.

 

We position it because at the time ~ at the moment we cannot deal with the over-whelming jolt of it! Its like being struck by lighting and thunder!

 

Eventually we become comfortable with the thunder, the lighting, and the rain ~ until we become 'no strangers' to the rain!

 

In short we become immune.

 

To all of you?

 

I wish you well!

[trippi1432]

It is my belief that its our fear of being weak and vulnerable ~ that makes us weak and vulnerable.

 

That's how we get caught up in depression and despair. We postpone it, and put it to the side until it comes a haunting us!

 

Be it war, combat, sexual molestation, spousal abuse, we cope with it and deal with it the best we can at the time, but we position it for the most part ~ only to deal with it latter.

 

We position it because at the time ~ at the moment we cannot deal with the over-whelming jolt of it! Its like being struck by lighting and thunder!

 

Eventually we become comfortable with the thunder, the lighting, and the rain ~ until we become 'no strangers' to the rain!

 

In short we become immune.

To all of you?

 

I wish you well!

 

:love: Hi Gunny - hope you are doing well.

[candymoon]

This is all very thought provoking stuff. Good thread Trippi.

 

I have been working on my own issues of control for years. Six years ago i had a nervous breakdown--meaning lost control of almost all my emotions because I was flooded with repressed memories, pain, guilt, anguish, despair. I had to be medicated to be made safe for myself. And am still in IC to this day, though I was able to drop the meds 2 years ago (yay!).

 

Control is one of those weird subjects that I still have trouble with. To me it is all perception and how we perceive ourselves or those around us as the controlled/controller. On the one side, we could have the abuser who learns to control his anger so as not to beat his wife. On the other, he used the beatings (in his mind) to control his wife. Or the psycho killer who kills people to maybe control the phantom voices in his head, when it's obvious to US he has lost all control. Obviously, these are extreme examples, and morally reprehensible, but the fact remains that one person's perception of control is another's perception of a total lack of control. And I believe the wrong on both these examples are people trying to control or manipulate other people, which is what I am getting from these lovely posts.

 

My husband is a (recovering) drug addict. All about control there, yes? I do take my share of the blame for my enabling/co-dependent ways. I have struggled through addictions myself and for the most part, overcome them. This is about letting myself know that I have no control of myself over it, and just accept that it is (as all the "Anonymous" groups say).

 

Through my experience with IC, I am finding that (for me) acceptance of what is and not what I want, how I want it, or hope how it will become (the WORST offender) makes for my much more peaceful inner self.

 

Hope and wishful thinking are killers, I think, for me. For 20 years I had hoped and wished my H would become something other than he is. I hoped the uneducated, weed smoking, poorly employed man on my sofa would suddenly wake up and realize that life was something worth living. I had hoped that he would see the love I had for him and reciprocate it in a real way. I had hoped that my life would be transformed from something other than memories of abuse, pain and fear. I did not necessarily try to control him. I tried, to the best of my ability, to 'lead' by example--I worked, put myself through school, earned a couple of degrees and have a well paying job, etc. But it was my HOPE that I allowed to control ME to the bitter end. I hoped for 20 years without ever really seeing dawn on the horizon from him.

 

You see, I knew I had no control over him. People who have been severely abused generally realize they do not have control over other people. I had just hoped that he would one day see the light by seeing, feeling and recognizing how hard I was working for us. But a true addict, never sees or appreciates these things on a real substantial level, I think. And if they do, then might begin to feel more shame about their addiction, dive deeper into it... then the enabler (me) works harder and harder, which makes (him) the addict take more of their drug of choice in an attempt to drown their embarrassment, shame, and/or guilt.

 

I think this might be where we find that love transforms into something else (at least for me)--When something else becomes the motivator to keep the relationship alive and we become controlled by THAT as opposed to what initially created that bond with our SOs in the first place. But of course, who realizes it at the time? It's all about hindsight and all that...

 

As I try to live more consciously these things change. I was not living as consciously at the time. I am learning to be more mindful of my emotional motivations and my reasonings on why I take a certain action. It makes my major decision making process a lot slower, but at least I am not swimming in the dark, being controlled by motivations I did not know were there.

 

Well, I try to anyway. No one's perfect.

[Gunny376]

Thanks trippi1432! Doing good and getting better! The meds are helping a lot, although there are side effects such as all I want to do is sleep all of the time.

 

I sleep better and no longer dream of un-burying dead people out of Beruit rubble nor throwing dead men, women, and children in the back of a Marine Corps dump truck and burying them in mass graves covered with lime in Rwanda (Sorry if too graphic!)

 

No more "Killer Elite" (I actuallly pulled my 9 mill and threatened to "cap" some Lance Corproal if he played that cassette one more time ~ I think it was Shawan Twain!}

 

I'm actually 90% to being back to who I was 34 years ago!

 

Its been a long time coming!

[trippi1432]

Let's look at this again....there's been a lot of insight, but I still think the fundamental message is lacking.

 

"Many of us have been trying to keep the whole world in orbit with sheer and forceful application of mental energy.

 

What happens if we let go, if we stop trying to keep the world orbiting and just let it whirl? It'll keep right on track with no help from us. And we'll be free and relaxed enough to enjoy our place on it.

 

Control is an illusion, especially the kind of control we've been trying to exert. In fact, controlling gives other people, events, and diseases, such as alcoholism, control over us. Whatever we try to control does have control over us and our life.

(Author) have given this control to many things and people in my life. (Author) have never gotten the results (Author) wanted from controlling or trying to control people. What (Author) received for (the) efforts is an unmanageable life, whether that unmanageability was inside me or in external events.

 

In recovery, we make a trade-off. We trade a life that we have tried to control, and we receive in return something better - a life that is manageable.

 

Today, I will exchange a controlled life for one that is manageable." (Beattie, 1990)

 

Beattie, M. (1990). Control. In M. Beattie, The Language of Letting Go, Daily Meditations on Codependency (p. 125). Center City: Hazelden Publishing.

 

Control is an illusion, the only person you can control is yourself and the part of yourself that you have control over are your emotions, reactions and perceptions.

 

So, for the alcoholic drug addict sleeping on the couch, do you get him up and make him go to bed? Does he want you to? If he does, then he is controlling you and you just became his enabler as he hurls insults at you and occasionally rears back his fist until he remembers you probably will clobber him with a cast iron skillet (thrown in for Southern humor). You know the next morning he is going to blame you for his sleeping on the couch....enabler again. So, don't get mad, don't even care about what he says....you control how you react, he controls his actions.

 

Do you try to get him up and he doesn't budge? Well, you did your best....leave him on the couch. You control how far you are willing to go, he controls where he sleeps. (If you are a cold-hearted B*tch like me, you won't put a blanket on him and you will turn the heat down and the ceiling fan on. Not really controlling, but I'll admit, mean and apathetic. But a little lesson in either getting his own blanket if he is going to do it again, or go to bed on his own.

 

For me, my control faux pas was repressed memories and anger....living for a reason I thought was important (revenge for criminal wrongs that had been done to me). What I didn't realize was, even though I thought this was control for me and not letting that person "win", this was living for the wrong reason. This person still had control over me. Even worse....that part of me became my self-confidence, my strength in a sick and twisted way.....why.....because I survived it. So, I sit stuck wondering what was I ever really controlling now and why....was I controlling not being a victim...perhaps. Yet I put myself into poor situations with two husbands....so the angry victim moves to survivor with each divorce.

 

Overcoming is the REALIZATION that you can only control you....that's it...that's all. I can control how I feel about my situation, my anger, I can make conscience decisions to walk away if I don't like how someone is treating me, I do not have to let myself feel powerless when being wrongly accused, I control how I feel about it. I don't have to wait for someone to change to love me, I control the ability to love me for me. I control who I let in my life and I control what I will tolerate from that friendship (boundaries). I also have the ability to apply the control of me at the levels I choose. For my children, it's controlling my anger. For my job, it's controlling the fact that I don't have to allow myself to become the victim and I don't have to merely survive. I control the boundaries.

[candymoon]

Let's look at this again....there's been a lot of insight, but I still think the fundamental message is lacking.

 

Naaah... not sure exactly what answer or message you're driving towards or looking for, but we all have our perceptions (that word again!) of control and the role it's played in our lives.

 

(If you are a cold-hearted B*tch like me, you won't put a blanket on him and you will turn the heat down and the ceiling fan on.

 

Errmm... *guiltily raises her hand* lol.

 

For me, my control faux pas was repressed memories and anger....living for a reason I thought was important (revenge for criminal wrongs that had been done to me). What I didn't realize was, even though I thought this was control for me and not letting that person "win", this was living for the wrong reason. This person still had control over me. Even worse....that part of me became my self-confidence, my strength in a sick and twisted way.....why.....because I survived it. So, I sit stuck wondering what was I ever really controlling now and why....was I controlling not being a victim...perhaps. Yet I put myself into poor situations with two husbands....so the angry victim moves to survivor with each divorce.

Precisely. This has been my exact same experience. My psychiatrists and psychologists have all described me as being 'driven'. And that's not a good thing. I was controlling not being a victim either by my attempts to become a success in life. Supressing and running from the past, by burying it in work, education, and preocuppation with an addict. Some people say that it is not always a bad thing being driven, and call it 'overcoming', like the ghetto queen who becomes a popstar... but it can drive you insane if you dont (wait for it) control how you shape things and what moves you to do them. I think once you do THAT, then you can accept realization (which you get to later) then you're on the right track.

 

Overcoming is the REALIZATION that you can only control you....that's it...that's all. I can control how I feel about my situation, my anger, I can make conscience decisions to walk away if I don't like how someone is treating me, I do not have to let myself feel powerless when being wrongly accused, I control how I feel about it. I don't have to wait for someone to change to love me, I control the ability to love me for me. I control who I let in my life and I control what I will tolerate from that friendship (boundaries). I also have the ability to apply the control of me at the levels I choose. For my children, it's controlling my anger. For my job, it's controlling the fact that I don't have to allow myself to become the victim and I don't have to merely survive. I control the boundaries.

 

Boundaries are tough for me, as having never learned what healthy boundaries are. That part I am still working on controlling in my life. Defining where my lines are and how much I want or need or desire another to move into my space is going to take a lot of work... but that's what life's for.... the learnin...

[Gunny376]

Just this plain and simple! It wasn't your chains that kept me down and it wasn't your keys that set me free!

 

I held the keys to my freedom all along!

[trippi1432]

Just this plain and simple! It wasn't your chains that kept me down and it wasn't your keys that set me free!

 

I held the keys to my freedom all along!

 

BINGO!!! :bunny::bunny:

 

You are so my hero!!!

[trippi1432]

“A helpful tool in our recovery, especially in the behavior we call detachment, is learning to identify who owns what. Then we let each person own and process his or her rightful property.

 

If another person has an addiction, a problem, a feeling, or a self-defeating behavior, that is their property, not ours. If someone is a martyr, immersed in negativity, controlling, or manipulative, that is their issue, not ours.

 

If someone has acted and experienced a particular consequence, both the behavior and the consequence belong to that person.

 

If someone is in denial or cannot think clearly on a particular issue, that confusion belongs to him or her.

 

If someone has a limited or impaired ability to love or care, that is his or her property, not ours. If someone has no approval or nurturing to give away, that is that person’s property.

People’s lies, deceptions, tricks, manipulations, abusive behaviors, inappropriate behaviors, cheating behaviors, and tacky behaviors belong to them too. Not us.

People’s hopes and dreams are their property. Their guilt belongs to them too. Their happiness or misery is also theirs. So are their beliefs and messages.

If some people don’t like themselves, that is their choice. Other people’s choices are their property, not ours.

 

What people choose to say and do is their business.

 

What is our property? Our property includes our behaviors, problems, feelings, happiness, misery, choices, and messages; our ability to love, care, and nurture; our thoughts, our denial, our hopes and dreams for ourselves. Whether we allow ourselves to be controlled, manipulated, deceived, or mistreated is our business.

 

In recovery, we learn an appropriate sense of ownership. If something isn’t ours, we don’t take it. If we talk it, we learn to give it back. Let other people have their property, and learn to own and take good care of what’s ours.

 

Today, I will work at developing a clear sense of what belongs to me, and what doesn’t. If it’s not mine, I won’t keep it. I will deal with myself, my issues, and my responsibilities. I will take my hands off what is not mine.” (Beattie, 1990)

 

Beattie, M. (1990). Property Lines. In M. Beattie, The Language of Letting Go, Daily Meditations on Codependency (pgs. 133 - 134). Center City: Hazelden.

___________________________________________________________________

Last night, I had another dream. I was lying in a hospital recovery room and people from work were coming to visit me. It wasn't because they were wishing me well, checking on me because they cared...they were coming to me for things they needed for work. Answers to questions they could get for themselves, but had been enabled for so long by having someone else do it for them, they were unable to perform simple functions.

 

Every person who holds a job is expendable, every company that employs a person is expendable too in these economic times. If I walk out in front of a bus tomorrow, people will still go on, work will still go on, life will still go on. That addict will still live and just find another enabler or get better, that $500k house you are striving for will still be there and find another owner, that BMW that you want to park in your garage, it will just be in someone else's garage.

 

"Driven" is an addiction. If you are addicted to work (and not a performing artist like Queen Latifah and J-Lo), how far from the ghetto do you need to get to be "happy". I listened to a man yesterday discuss his issues in group. He talked about his successful daughter and her big house, nice car...said he was happy for her even though he lived in his little apartment in a poor neighborhood. Not once do I recall him saying he was "proud" of her. In earnest, poor/rich....neither are happy. For me, my boundary is the middle of the road....I value money in the bank and food on the table than my mortgage owning me. I would rather have co-workers that I like, than have co-workers that only like me for what I provide them.

 

Candymoon - I am posting this primarily for you because our issues are very similar. My addict left me because I didn't fix him....stupid, I know...his problem, not mine. I ensured that my life was middle of the road because (honestly) can you rely on an addict? Don't let your past life become your undoing....happy is living to work, not working to live...as Gunny would say.

[trippi1432]

Gunny, I've heard you say this so many times, not "exactly" like this, but very much the same message. Hugs!!

 

"Letting Go

 

Stop trying so hard to control things. It is not our job to control people, outcomes, circumstances, life. Maybe in the past we couldn't trust and let things happen. But we can now. The way life is unfolding is good. Let it unfold.

 

Stop trying so hard to do better, be better, be more. Who we are and the way we do things is good enough for today.

 

Who we were and the way we did things yesterday was good enough for that day.

 

Ease up on ourselves. Let go. Stop trying so hard.

 

Today, I will let go. I will stop trying to control everything. I will stop trying to make myself be and do better, and I will let myself be." (Beattie, 1990)

 

Beattie, M. (1990). Letting Go. In M. Beattie, The Language of Letting Go, Daily Meditations on Codependency (pgs. 210-211). Center City: Hazelden.

[Gunny376]

This is all very thought provoking stuff. Good thread Trippi.

 

I have been working on my own issues of control for years. Six years ago i had a nervous breakdown--meaning lost control of almost all my emotions because I was flooded with repressed memories, pain, guilt, anguish, despair. I had to be medicated to be made safe for myself. And am still in IC to this day, though I was able to drop the meds 2 years ago (yay!).

 

Control is one of those weird subjects that I still have trouble with. To me it is all perception and how we perceive ourselves or those around us as the controlled/controller. On the one side, we could have the abuser who learns to control his anger so as not to beat his wife. On the other, he used the beatings (in his mind) to control his wife. Or the psycho killer who kills people to maybe control the phantom voices in his head, when it's obvious to US he has lost all control. Obviously, these are extreme examples, and morally reprehensible, but the fact remains that one person's perception of control is another's perception of a total lack of control. And I believe the wrong on both these examples are people trying to control or manipulate other people, which is what I am getting from these lovely posts.

 

My husband is a (recovering) drug addict. All about control there, yes? I do take my share of the blame for my enabling/co-dependent ways. I have struggled through addictions myself and for the most part, overcome them. This is about letting myself know that I have no control of myself over it, and just accept that it is (as all the "Anonymous" groups say).

 

Through my experience with IC, I am finding that (for me) acceptance of what is and not what I want, how I want it, or hope how it will become (the WORST offender) makes for my much more peaceful inner self.

 

Hope and wishful thinking are killers, I think, for me. For 20 years I had hoped and wished my H would become something other than he is. I hoped the uneducated, weed smoking, poorly employed man on my sofa would suddenly wake up and realize that life was something worth living. I had hoped that he would see the love I had for him and reciprocate it in a real way. I had hoped that my life would be transformed from something other than memories of abuse, pain and fear. I did not necessarily try to control him. I tried, to the best of my ability, to 'lead' by example--I worked, put myself through school, earned a couple of degrees and have a well paying job, etc. But it was my HOPE that I allowed to control ME to the bitter end. I hoped for 20 years without ever really seeing dawn on the horizon from him.

 

You see, I knew I had no control over him. People who have been severely abused generally realize they do not have control over other people. I had just hoped that he would one day see the light by seeing, feeling and recognizing how hard I was working for us. But a true addict, never sees or appreciates these things on a real substantial level, I think. And if they do, then might begin to feel more shame about their addiction, dive deeper into it... then the enabler (me) works harder and harder, which makes (him) the addict take more of their drug of choice in an attempt to drown their embarrassment, shame, and/or guilt.

 

I think this might be where we find that love transforms into something else (at least for me)--When something else becomes the motivator to keep the relationship alive and we become controlled by THAT as opposed to what initially created that bond with our SOs in the first place. But of course, who realizes it at the time? It's all about hindsight and all that...

 

As I try to live more consciously these things change. I was not living as consciously at the time. I am learning to be more mindful of my emotional motivations and my reasonings on why I take a certain action. It makes my major decision making process a lot slower, but at least I am not swimming in the dark, being controlled by motivations I did not know were there.

 

Well, I try to anyway. No one's perfect.

 

I don't know how I missed this post?

 

But that's some pretty deep thinking going on there!

[Gunny376]

Gunny, I've heard you say this so many times, not "exactly" like this, but very much the same message. Hugs!!

 

"Letting Go

 

Stop trying so hard to control things. It is not our job to control people, outcomes, circumstances, life. Maybe in the past we couldn't trust and let things happen. But we can now. The way life is unfolding is good. Let it unfold.

 

Stop trying so hard to do better, be better, be more. Who we are and the way we do things is good enough for today.

 

Who we were and the way we did things yesterday was good enough for that day.

 

Ease up on ourselves. Let go. Stop trying so hard.

 

Today, I will let go. I will stop trying to control everything. I will stop trying to make myself be and do better, and I will let myself be." (Beattie, 1990)

 

Beattie, M. (1990). Letting Go. In M. Beattie, The Language of Letting Go, Daily Meditations on Codependency (pgs. 210-211). Center City: Hazelden.

 

You know what?

 

Twenty ~ thirty years ago?

 

I wasn't the greatest husband nor father there ever was? I was the best husband and father that I knew how to be at the time?

 

Mind you, I was far, far from being the worse there ever was ~ but just as equally far from being the greatest let alone the best.

 

Ditto with my being a Marine.

 

But you know what? I was worse than some? But better than most!

 

And being the best that you can become and be?

 

That's all you can expect of yourself! That's all you can ever BE!

 

Through the heartache, heart-break, tears, hardships, mental, emotional and physical pain?

 

I know I can go to my grave knowing that throughout my life?

 

I gave more than 110%!

 

I did and gave my best!

 

That I was a larger part of something other than myself. That I asked not what my country could do for me? But what I could do for my country.

 

I impoverished myself, sacrifice, did without for my children ~ so they could have a better life than I did ~ although they can't and will never see it.

 

But I know what I did, what I didn't do, what I sacrificed, what I gave up, what I went through and without.

 

And in the end? That's all you can ask of yourself.

 

"Most people go through life wondering if they've made a difference? Marines don't have that problem!" ~ Ronald Reagan

[trippi1432]

Stands, applauds....thank you Gunny....:love: Check your email.

[You Go Girl]

Boundaries.

I had never been near an alcoholic before I married roommate H.

But I also had been raised with some mixed messages boundaries, so it was confusing to me. I didn't even know the term boundary when mine were crossed repeatedly. All I knew was that I was hopping mad.

I came from a somewhat dysfunctional family. My father was a tyrant.

I knew that my boundaries had been crossed within 6 months of this marriage--but what I didn't understand, what wouldn't sink in, was that I was being repeatedly duped.

It was too much for a newly married crazy in love person to believe could be happening to them.

Now I understand my boundaries. I had to learn how to stand up for my own boundaries through a lot of pain, years of pain. This is probably the direct result of having grown up in a dysfunctional family. I have taught my own daughter to respect her own boundaries. Hopefully she will fare better.

If a person respects their own boundaries, then there is no reason to even consider control as an issue. Like another poster said on a different thread--there is no point in even talking to someone who lies to you. With boundaries, you draw a line in the sand. If you let it get crossed, you suffer.

Take the wisdom of not letting someone abuse your boundaries, and the swift consequences if they do, and you don't feel a need to try to control anyone. Your boundary has been crossed and there will be consequences, period.

That, is very difficult to do in a committed relationship, especially as in my case, I was never in a LTR before in which someone ignored my boundaries repeatedly.

The problem comes from--first time shame on you, second time shame on me.

It's difficult to let someone go. So we fall into the abyss of letting that second time happen.

I now believe there is no second time. I will walk, everytime. If a new cleaned up version of whomever has crossed your boundary line emerges in the future after separation, great, maybe there is hope for a reconciliation IF you are willing to try again. But more likely than not, it will be years hence before that cleaned up version emerges, if ever, and so it is now for me--NO SELF SACRIFICE.

[You Go Girl]

And an interesting after thought to that last post--is not letting your boundaries be crossed a type of control?

Yep.

We DO have to take that control.

[trippi1432]

And an interesting after thought to that last post--is not letting your boundaries be crossed a type of control?

Yep.

We DO have to take that control.

 

Well...yeah, but it's you and your boundary to control....the control on the other side is the respect not to overstep the boundary you set.

 

I'm still trying to learn boundaries myself....and conflict resolution. I never knew that my parent's fought up to 12 years old...never heard a raised voiced or an argument. I don't recall my dad ever raising his voice to me until I was 15 or 16. I was an emotional wreck with my first ex because I couldn't figure out that the reason I loved him so much was because he didn't love me back....it was totally unhealthy. I had no self-worth because I lacked the emotional maturity being that it was only several years after my abuse that we first started dating. He never raised his voice to me, never physically abused me, but it was my own emotional hell that I created for myself and the lack of understanding that his unfaithfulness was a lack of respect to me and our relationship. That's how badly I did not understand boundaries so that I could have some control over my emotions as well as some love for myself.

 

At that young age, and going 20 + years before getting any help or understanding into the abuse that happened, No one ever said, hey - there are bad people in the world that might want to hurt you...no one ever told me that those very same people could be a part of your family. Everything from 12 on was the extreme opposite of everything I had known....but still had it's twisted normalcy to it. I know that there are all types of situations out there, many worse than others. We all have our own defenses, boundaries, coping mechanisms and perspectives that are right for each of us.

 

Something interesting that we discussed in group today was how our personalities are genetic.....hard-wired into us....it is not habits or things we pick up in life that make up our personalities. Liken this to an Introvert versus and Extrovert, this is a genetic makeup of a person's personality. If an introverted person were to be put into a job as a retail customer service person, would they like that job? No...after dealing with people's problems all day, they would come home and want to chill...unwind to get back to "themselves". Same thing for an extrovert, someone who is used to dealing with people all day, enjoys being social, they would excel at a customer service job, but hate a mundane repetitive job like sitting behind a desk all day pulling data or writing code as a programmer.

 

That was exactly my second marriage, I told the counselor he had just summed up my marriage and validated that my ex was right when he left...."Blame it on our jobs!!". I would actually put my ex in the Ambivert area which is in the center. He could be both...social or fine on his own in a job. But, it still bears the fact that being in the wrong type of job for your personality spills over into your home life if you are not aware of how you control your actions and reactions. You can still be in a job that isn't right for your personality because you have no current choice, but you can be aware of how it affects you and your personality before you go home and "kick the dog".

 

It may sound like "spinning" but boundaries are not just for where others do not need to cross...they are also for where you do not need to tread as well...that's you controlling you.

[Steadfast]

 

"Mind you I have issues of my own, but they did not inspire the conflict and radical damage her decisions did. In the end, that's usually the difference between people."

 

But are you saying that your issues did not cause her actions? There is still an element of blame there. See, I can admit that I did cause my husband's actions....my issues played a part and so did his as did he cause my actions.

 

 

Trippi, taking a risk of mixing in more confusion, I'd like to respond. Please understand that I take no offense to your correction and advice (which is very good, and kind) knowing my lack of clear expression is to blame.

 

Allow me to tell a short story about control, and my memories of it relating to my parents in their marriage. Until he passed, it had lasted 63 years.

 

I recall once my father coming home from work and telling my mother about a car he wanted to buy. A great deal he explained; once in a lifetime, not to be missed. "Oh no you're not!" she scolded. They had been saving money to make a down payment on a house. That was the plan, in place, and mutually agreed upon by them beforehand. Dad worked, mom took care of the home. I was -rather mildly- shocked to see my mother shut him down like that. He was angry, but relented. They bought their house, he got the new car sometime after that. A great car too, I might add. Lasted forever.

 

Another time, later, my mother was having a bitter argument with my oldest brother. I don't recall about what, but it was something she was very passionate about. She was getting louder and louder...I could see she was expecting dad to jump in to back her up, but he was divided; he saw good points to both sides of the debate. Angry, she finally lashed out at him; in a way that I had never seen. Sensing things were getting out of hand and looking to end it, my dad raised his hand and boomed "ENOUGH!". Silence.

 

Trippi, I'm not looking to place blame. On my ex-wife or anyone else. My point is simply this; in a relationship there will be issues to deal with and baggage to carry. No perfect people, no perfect marriages. Even the best, most profound 'path of enlightenment' will be tested severely when passion and deep feelings are involved. True love, trust and respect will bind control and regulate it to its proper place. Exasperated by her affair and the conflict it was causing everyone in our home I told (yes, told. As in; here's an order: follow it!) my ex-wife, "Stop this foolishness, come home and take care of your family".

 

She told me to go F-myself. So much for control. So much for love.

 

Learning about us is a good thing. A very good thing and getting out of your own way has many advantages. But, it can't make someone love you and care. They either will, or they won't. They either want to, or don't.

Edited May 12, 2010 by Steadfast

[You Go Girl]

"It may sound like "spinning" but boundaries are not just for where others do not need to cross...they are also for where you do not need to tread as well...that's you controlling you."

 

Absolutely, trippi.

And that's what happens in co-dependency. The codep also loses sense of where their personal boundaries are when they decide to focus on the addict. Their personal life becomes unmanageable, yes?

The disentragration is on both sides. That's when it gets really crazy, nobody is in control, not of themselves or each other, but they're focused on controlling the other person.

What a madhouse.

Knowing ourselves and how we should live our lives, is a toughy. That growth you made to put your past abuse in its proper place and understand how it affects your relationships now was not only very important, but you were then able to understand better dynamics of your relationships for the future.

One psych I saw a few years back put it very well...I wish I could remember her exact words, but the gist of it was that part of my mind hadn't made any "updates" to how I was viewing certain things. Stuck in some conclusion of the past. It's maturing, but moreso thinking...thinking new situations through and not applying the same rules as used in the past. The situation had changed, and applying old responses to new situations didn't work.

I suppose the reason I am focusing on the boundaries I need to set with others is because that has affected my life so profoundly in the last 6 years, and I made zero progress on 'making' the addict respect my boundaries. My life has been in limbo. I know I have to complete the severing of the tie that binds here to focus completely on just me. I detach quite well, but roommate H is extremely provocative. I may walk away without giving him the response he's trying to provoke, but it doesn't mean I don't feel anything, and those feelings are still raw living in this situation.

I've also been watching "Intervention" quite a bit. There's the addict, (or two or three in some families!) and the messed up group of codependents. Every single one of those shows has the same message. Set the boundaries, let the addict choose, and don't renig. Zero progress is ever made until the codependents set their boundaries and stick to them. NOTHING else works.

And I believe that completely now.

[You Go Girl]

Learning about us is a good thing. A very good thing and getting out of your own way has many advantages. But, it can't make someone love you and care. They either will, or they won't. They either want to, or don't.

 

And there lies the rub...

You set your boundaries, and you may lose someone. But, if it comes to that, I suppose we've all lost them already. They've made their choice.

And yeah, it hurts.

[trippi1432]

Trippi, taking a risk of mixing in more confusion, I'd like to respond. Please understand that I take no offense to your correction and advice (which is very good, and kind) knowing my lack of clear expression is to blame.

 

Allow me to tell a short story about control, and my memories of it relating to my parents in their marriage. Until he passed, it had lasted 63 years.

 

I recall once my father coming home from work and telling my mother about a car he wanted to buy. A great deal he explained; once in a lifetime, not to be missed. "Oh no you're not!" she scolded. They had been saving money to make a down payment on a house. That was the plan, in place, and mutually agreed upon by them beforehand. Dad worked, mom took care of the home. I was -rather mildly- shocked to see my mother shut him down like that. He was angry, but relented. They bought their house, he got the new car sometime after that. A great car too, I might add. Lasted forever.

 

Another time, later, my mother was having a bitter argument with my oldest brother. I don't recall about what, but it was something she was very passionate about. She was getting louder and louder...I could see she was expecting dad to jump in to back her up, but he was divided; he saw good points to both sides of the debate. Angry, she finally lashed out at him; in a way that I had never seen. Sensing things were getting out of hand and looking to end it, my dad raised his hand and boomed "ENOUGH!". Silence.

 

Trippi, I'm not looking to place blame. On my ex-wife or anyone else. My point is simply this; in a relationship there will be issues to deal with and baggage to carry. No perfect people, no perfect marriages. Even the best, most profound 'path of enlightenment' will be tested severely when passion and deep feelings are involved. True love, trust and respect will bind control and regulate it to its proper place. Exasperated by her affair and the conflict it was causing everyone in our home I told (yes, told. As in; here's an order: follow it!) my ex-wife, "Stop this foolishness, come home and take care of your family".

 

Nothing wrong here, you set a boundary and an ultimatum for your marriage and your family. I did the same with my ex when he told me he was 2 weeks into a new relationship 4 weeks after our 15 year relationship ended. Mine: "You evidently haven't been seeing her for a while so you can't be in love with her, I will forgive everything if you will just come home and work on us."

 

She told me to go F-myself. So much for control. So much for love.

 

Yep, the response I got was that HE couldn't do that to HER. You know, even 9 months later, that comment still floors me...but at least I laugh about it now and it doesn't hurt as bad.

 

Learning about us is a good thing. A very good thing and getting out of your own way has many advantages. But, it can't make someone love you and care. They either will, or they won't. They either want to, or don't.

 

I think the lesson though is still the dynamics of control being about controlling yourself....you cannot control another person unless they allow it. And I am referring to adults (not children in this situation).

 

Your parents had an agreement on a major purchase...a life event. Your dad wanted to change that agreement and your mother reminded him of the agreement. Not control, just the dynamics of a marriage (and he still got the car, admirable that your parent's did the right thing for each other there) and each maintained control of themselves.

 

Example: My ex and I agreed that we wanted to buy a house, we were renting a very old house and the owners agreed that after two years, we could make a bid to buy it. My ex wanted that house (and for years it was an argument even though I did the best I could to show him the investment issues, I was being a control-freak by not agreeing with his choice). There was an old concrete block workshop in the backyard that was leaning due to no footers and ex wanted to close in the carport for a bigger bedroom and master bath.

 

To make a fair decision, I had a building contractor come out and tell us what could be done. Due to fire codes, we couldn't close in the carport unless we put another door in somewhere (had to have two exits). The only place to do this feasibly couldn't be done due to the access being right over the septic tank. Even worse, the house was so old, that it actually had newspaper for insulation (found this out from a neighbor who paid thousands to have his same home redone). With some alternatives that were offered for the bedroom and master bath, total renovations would cost $80k or more. This pushed the home up into the $200k range and homes in that area did not sell for that, so would have been a loss.

 

There were no arguments, we agreed we would look for a new home somewhere else. (However, I didn't realize that my ex was becoming more and more passive/aggressive over not buying the house HE wanted.) After looking at several homes and getting beaten out on the offers, my ex gave up. Told me he didn't care anymore, just go out and find something. So I gave up control of picking out our home to our 9 year old son....at least the decision part on which house to buy. (I'm a little passive/aggressive myself and figured he had better taste and smarts than his dad anyway - hope it doesn't show that I skipped therapy today). Wound up with a brand new home, more sq. footage, bigger rooms...etc, for the same investment before renovations as the old house. Four years later, when my ex left, he looked around the house and told me that this was all materialistic and he never cared for the house anyway....hope I was happy, I got what I wanted.

 

Here's where I have realized what control is...it wasn't about me buying the house that he didn't care for, it wouldn't have been about giving in and buying the one he wanted. Control is that I let his words and actions bother me, I allowed his passive/aggressive behavior to bother me any time that an argument came up and he would say, we should have just bought the house I wanted....or this is too much house....or living here is embarrassing because people think we have money. Even more, the last year it became a constant argument - but in hindsight...and this is an assumption, I get the feeling that he wanted me to sell out because he was planning on leaving. (and before anyone says anything about chasing the American Dream and letting it get the best of you, I live in a stick built home/modular community on the wrong side of town, it's nothing "fancy", kills me that the mods sell for higher than my home would).

 

But to him, it was embarrassing because he grew up in the projects of a small town in upstate NY. Owning a home, to him, was a sign of boastfulness, throwing your money in people's faces that didn't have money. You see, I didn't think of these things because my childhood was much different. But asking him to get over his experiences without really understanding his behavior would be like asking me to get over being sexually abused and never understand how that drives me to the things I do, say or experience. Those experiences stay with us, they become a part of us and can control us, our beliefs, our values and our morals at times...they are definitely challenging.

 

What I have learned by going through this therapy is that controlling myself is a hard thing for me...it's something that I have to work on...work very hard on....if I am ever going to be happy with myself. It's about (as my daughter and I have agreed, I need to put my inner child up for adoption) knowing who I am, why I am the way I am and controlling my own feelings when I feel like someone is criticizing or judging me instead of lashing out and becoming immediately defensive. I've noticed that I do this at work as well as with a friend or two. I am in control of me, who I am, what I do, how I react...that is all I can control. Other people do not control me, they can only control themselves.

 

"Learning about us is a good thing. A very good thing and getting out of your own way has many advantages. But, it can't make someone love you and care. They either will, or they won't. They either want to, or don't."

 

Steadfast - you are correct here. And this is where I think my thread got a little off balance - this thread was never meant to be about controlling other people, their feelings or emotions...not even their actions or reactions. If this is what they are teaching in group therapy these days....let us all beware.

 

This entire thread of CONTROL is about controlling yourself....simple, but also a very hard thing to do for people who are going through depression, PTSD, bringing up repressed memories.....etc. It's about knowing that I will never get to balance until I get myself back under control and work those things out. Understanding the events that "trigger" me will help with that which is what the journey is all about.

[Steadfast]

 

This entire thread of CONTROL is about controlling yourself....simple, but also a very hard thing to do for people who are going through depression, PTSD, bringing up repressed memories.....etc. It's about knowing that I will never get to balance until I get myself back under control and work those things out. Understanding the events that "trigger" me will help with that which is what the journey is all about.

 

 

And that's why you'll succeed trippi. My pop always used to say; "Before you can accomplish anything, you must first want to." Desire is critical.

 

On a lighter note...

 

My favorite 'flabbergasted' moment with my ex came right before our divorce went final. Seemingly scared and lonely she'd come back, expressing some very deep feelings of remorse and saying all the right things. I was cautious, but encouraged.

 

Sure enough she began to pull away again, like, showing a reluctance to kiss. Taking a chance I asked, 'Who is he?' and she confessed to seeing a married with kids man and 'feared' she was in love with him. She went on to say she felt guilty and didn't want to be 'that kind of person' anymore.

 

I asked 'Let me get this straight; you don't want to cheat on your married boyfriend by kissing your husband?' Her confused response? 'Err...yeah.'

 

That pretty much cinched it. I never looked back.

[trippi1432]

And that's why you'll succeed trippi. My pop always used to say; "Before you can accomplish anything, you must first want to." Desire is critical.

 

Yep....

 

On a lighter note...

 

My favorite 'flabbergasted' moment with my ex came right before our divorce went final. Seemingly scared and lonely she'd come back, expressing some very deep feelings of remorse and saying all the right things. I was cautious, but encouraged.

 

Sure enough she began to pull away again, like, showing a reluctance to kiss. Taking a chance I asked, 'Who is he?' and she confessed to seeing a married with kids man and 'feared' she was in love with him. She went on to say she felt guilty and didn't want to be 'that kind of person' anymore.

 

I asked 'Let me get this straight; you don't want to cheat on your married boyfriend by kissing your husband?' Her confused response? 'Err...yeah.'

 

That pretty much cinched it. I never looked back.

 

Don't blame you there Steadfast...

[candymoon]

I don't know how I missed this post?

 

But that's some pretty deep thinking going on there!

 

 

Aww Gunny, you're funny! idk about deep, but my ears were kinda smoking after that one. lol.

 

i do find myself slowing to read your posts when I come across them. You're a pretty cool d00d!

 

 

I have more on this control topic, but will come back to it in a few...

[candymoon]

My primary diagnosis, like a few others here, is PTSD. The secondary are the usual can of beans: Panic Disorder and Major Depresson.

 

I have been in recovery for 6-ish years now, and understand that it is US that control our lives... actually my issue with everything is kind of weird in that when I began recovery I began to take control of my life (and i'm still working on it, believe me)...

 

Someone crossed a boundary with me and they were out. Done. There was no amount of whining and amount of apology that would get someone back in to my good graces. I think people started to think of me as being very "hard" and a tyrant at the time. But I was learning to flex those boundary muscles that I had not even known were there before.... that has left my social pool quite slim...but then again if i had friends who were so deadset on crossing boundaries, even with warnings, they werent worth keeping anyway. i am now learning to make friends who respect me and my boundaries and where i am in life. tough thing to do.

 

So I guess that is a lesson for those in recovery... be prepared that when you DO start finding and defending those boundaries for there to be little to no one left. Remember, those are people we associated with while in a darker phase of life... many won't be able to handle this new control we are taking and will walk away (some not so quietly). These last few years for me have been very quiet socially (non-exisistent really), but it has given me time to reflect and learn and decide what type of people i want in my life--and to find my boundaries without the distraction of having them constantly pushed by those that enjoyed pushing my limits and disrespecting me and my beliefs.

 

Now I've begun to venture out slowly and am working hard at rebuilding who i am socially and learning to discern people and their intentions and trusting in their actions. Words mean nothing. People say everything by what they do and their body language belies their intent. So I am being very careful. Venturing out a little wiser, i hope...

 

As far as the workaholism, mine was not so much for chasing the american dream. i mean, there was a tiny element to that. it was more so an internal desire to achieve something intangible... as in, "i can do this difficult job! i can make it--even those these ppl think i cant!" as far as working, i had never had a low self esteem about my intelligence, ability to work and survive on my own. the way this country has traditionally been set up, minorities have always had to work that much harder to prove themselves in the work place when working alongside others with the equivalent positions that are less educated and skilled with both the hard and soft skillset, but receive more 'perks' and rise easier to the top... just how it is... and that is neither here nor there now, i suppose. so i did workaholic a bit to to prove myself, and in a way i wont deny--hide from that stoner on my couch. it was never really about the money. but now i have worked enough and have enough contacts in my biz to make equal pay alongside those that feel they are entitled and i am happy with that. took twice as much work tho.

 

anyway, i think my taking control is why my marriage is in crisis right now with my addict--last year i said, 'ditch the drugs or go." i took control... i am waiting to see if he will take control too. I will credit him and say for the most part he is, except with this particular friend who visits once a month... but as the veil of co-dependence rises from our relationship, i find myself wondering if we are even compatible and if that was all we had in common...

[trippi1432]

My primary diagnosis, like a few others here, is PTSD. The secondary are the usual can of beans: Panic Disorder and Major Depresson.

 

I have been in recovery for 6-ish years now, and understand that it is US that control our lives... actually my issue with everything is kind of weird in that when I began recovery I began to take control of my life (and i'm still working on it, believe me)...

 

Someone crossed a boundary with me and they were out. Done. There was no amount of whining and amount of apology that would get someone back in to my good graces. I think people started to think of me as being very "hard" and a tyrant at the time. But I was learning to flex those boundary muscles that I had not even known were there before.... that has left my social pool quite slim...but then again if i had friends who were so deadset on crossing boundaries, even with warnings, they werent worth keeping anyway. i am now learning to make friends who respect me and my boundaries and where i am in life. tough thing to do.

 

So I guess that is a lesson for those in recovery... be prepared that when you DO start finding and defending those boundaries for there to be little to no one left. Remember, those are people we associated with while in a darker phase of life... many won't be able to handle this new control we are taking and will walk away (some not so quietly). These last few years for me have been very quiet socially (non-exisistent really), but it has given me time to reflect and learn and decide what type of people i want in my life--and to find my boundaries without the distraction of having them constantly pushed by those that enjoyed pushing my limits and disrespecting me and my beliefs.

 

Now I've begun to venture out slowly and am working hard at rebuilding who i am socially and learning to discern people and their intentions and trusting in their actions. Words mean nothing. People say everything by what they do and their body language belies their intent. So I am being very careful. Venturing out a little wiser, i hope...

 

As far as the workaholism, mine was not so much for chasing the american dream. i mean, there was a tiny element to that. it was more so an internal desire to achieve something intangible... as in, "i can do this difficult job! i can make it--even those these ppl think i cant!" as far as working, i had never had a low self esteem about my intelligence, ability to work and survive on my own. the way this country has traditionally been set up, minorities have always had to work that much harder to prove themselves in the work place when working alongside others with the equivalent positions that are less educated and skilled with both the hard and soft skillset, but receive more 'perks' and rise easier to the top... just how it is... and that is neither here nor there now, i suppose. so i did workaholic a bit to to prove myself, and in a way i wont deny--hide from that stoner on my couch. it was never really about the money. but now i have worked enough and have enough contacts in my biz to make equal pay alongside those that feel they are entitled and i am happy with that. took twice as much work tho.

 

anyway, i think my taking control is why my marriage is in crisis right now with my addict--last year i said, 'ditch the drugs or go." i took control... i am waiting to see if he will take control too. I will credit him and say for the most part he is, except with this particular friend who visits once a month... but as the veil of co-dependence rises from our relationship, i find myself wondering if we are even compatible and if that was all we had in common...

 

Candymoon, I can empathize....while I thought I was just PTSD and anxiety, the diagnosis came out today as bipolar. Not sure if it is more mania or bipolar disorder II. This would definitely explain the suicidal thoughts. Like someone told me today, "You're great when it's good, but your hate shows far too much." I know that they don't understand that it isn't hate...it's not even something that I can make anyone understand....still trying to figure it all out myself.

 

I asked my psychiatrist how I could go all this time and not know that I was bipolar. He said that I just hid it well, with school, work, the kids....running everywhere....no time to stay in that manic state....I still don't know....have to read more up on it....all I know is that it takes a lot of will and strength these days from giving up completely. I've set the boundary with work by taking the leave of absence, my daughter has moved out and my son spends a few days there and there. I know I have to remove the elements that cause me the most pain and set my boundaries there in order to rebuild. And as my mother says, I would be doing much better if I unplugged my computer and turned off my phone....my life would be much better, easy and drama free.

 

Respect Candymoon....someone always have to work harder to prove themselves...know what you mean there. Much luck to you hun.