How I got MY wife into sex

[mem11363]

I do not do that. I do advocate being assertive and insisting that your partner treats you well. I view that as a standing tall approach. Deliberately making your partner feel "less than" is not a tactic I am capable of. I would HATE it if my wife did that to me. If I was married to someone who was constantly critiquing me, I would fix the stuff I thought was valid and aggressively fight every other point.

 

With that said, if my wife behaves in an unacceptable manner I tell her and then basically won't talk about anything else until that issue is resolved.

 

 

 

That sounds like a very healthy approach.

 

The OP and the book he is recommending, however, recommend brushing off approaches sometimes, refusing to give compliments when directly asked, as well as strategically commenting on the attributes of other women, etc. I don't recommend those approaches.

[giotto]

I gotta disagree, giotto. Paying attention to a person's personal boundaries, and backing off when attention is too much, is not playing games. To me, it is simply being kind, considerate, and confident (as opposed to needy, which is never appealing).

 

 

The trouble is, when all of a sudden you change personality, the wife will suspect some kind of game (if she intelligent enough) and guess what? She will also suspect your ultimate goal... back to square one...

 

After 25 years, we know exactly how our minds work, so playing games will be just that, a game...

[xxoo]

The trouble is, when all of a sudden you change personality, the wife will suspect some kind of game (if she intelligent enough) and guess what? She will also suspect your ultimate goal... back to square one...

 

After 25 years, we know exactly how our minds work, so playing games will be just that, a game...

 

First, I'm not suggesting this one change would fix all marriages...

 

But people do grow and change.

 

It really does depend on what is your ultimate goal. Yes, if you treat her differently because your ultimate goal is more sex, that is a game.

 

But if you treat her differently because you've (general you) grown and have a better understanding of how your behaviors negatively affect her, and your ultimate goal is to treat her the way she wants to be treated, that's very different.

 

Still, if you have a history of insincere motivations, she may be suspicious of your ultimate goal even when you are sincere. The trust issues may be difficult to overcome.

[JamesM]

First, I'm not suggesting this one change would fix all marriages...

 

But people do grow and change.

 

It really does depend on what is your ultimate goal. Yes, if you treat her differently because your ultimate goal is more sex, that is a game.

 

But if you treat her differently because you've (general you) grown and have a better understanding of how your behaviors negatively affect her, and your ultimate goal is to treat her the way she wants to be treated, that's very different.

 

Still, if you have a history of insincere motivations, she may be suspicious of your ultimate goal even when you are sincere. The trust issues may be difficult to overcome.

 

Agree. Well said

 

And do remember that even if you change and play "games" for a better relationship and yet inside you are hoping for more sex, this does not mean that you will be satisfied with anything but better sex. And then the changes will revert back to normal. She will then realize that it was all a ploy for more sex.

 

Don't set yourself up for a big disappointment.

[giotto]

It really does depend on what is your ultimate goal. Yes, if you treat her differently because your ultimate goal is more sex, that is a game.

 

yes, but look at the title of the thread? That was the OP's ultimate goal and he succeeded... I thought we were talking about that.

 

I have changed my attitude towards sex - and towards sex with my wife. It's not important to me anymore. But before you fall off your chair , I have a confession to make: I've come to the conclusion that I don't really love my wife anymore and I actually find it difficult now to be in the same room as her. The last few months have been a real eye-opener for me. The fact that I had to threaten to leave and to divorce her to get any attention has saddened me immensely and I'm afraid I've lost all respect for her. I would never have treated her the way she treated me. It boils down to this simple equation. It's taken me a long time to realise this and this board has helped me no end. I just could not see it before. Now I'm number one again and the whining stops here...

[JamesM]

I have a confession to make: I've come to the conclusion that I don't really love my wife anymore and I actually find it difficult now to be in the same room as her.

 

The first question that came to my mind is...if she were to have an epiphany and realized that she truly loved you and changed her ways, then would you still love her?

 

Is it that you lost love for her, or is it that the anger and resentment inside of you covers over the love that you carry?

 

Do you feel angry around her or simply apathetic?

[giotto]

The first question that came to my mind is...if she were to have an epiphany and realized that she truly loved you and changed her ways, then would you still love her?

 

Is it that you lost love for her, or is it that the anger and resentment inside of you covers over the love that you carry?

 

Do you feel angry around her or simply apathetic?

 

She has already told me that she loves me and that she cannot imagine her life without me... unfortunately, it's too late! She is a bit better at noticing my needs and I appreciate it. But the sex has got boring now (always too rush otherwise she might not reach orgasm - she says she "misses the train"...) and not that much more frequent (it's the usual average of twice a month, which is better than once a month when we were "battling"). But that's not the real problem now. I just lost the love for her. I feel awkward being near her... I can't touch her anymore. I'm just scared? I don't want to get there after all that's happened. I suppose I don't want to be hurt anymore. I'm sure it's also resentment and anger, deep down...

[mem11363]

Lets take a hypothetical couple H works W is a SAHM with 2 young kids. Marriage is good except for finances. Turns out W feels they should be saving 15% of their income, H is comfortable spending every penny they earn and says "don't worry it's not like we are in debt or anything". W says - "I feel anxious and insecure without savings and with the idea eventually we will struggle in retirement." H says eventually he will make more, kids will be grown, expenses will go down and THEN they will start to save.

 

They fight about this a lot - because she feels chronically tense and believes that if he really loved her he would make the effort to build up a safety net.

 

Initially she tries so reduce HER spending by clipping coupons etc. But she quickly learns the less she spends the more he spends.

 

Finally W develops a set of behavioral tactics SOLELY aimed at changing his spending pattern. One of them is she creates some relationship insecurity, is less loving towards him because she feels his free spending is largely based on the notion that even if he treats her in a manner that causes her chronic anxiety she won't leave him.

 

My question is this: Is it wrong for the wife to do this? She is changing her behavior purely to change his behavior in this specific area.

 

 

 

Agree. Well said

 

And do remember that even if you change and play "games" for a better relationship and yet inside you are hoping for more sex, this does not mean that you will be satisfied with anything but better sex. And then the changes will revert back to normal. She will then realize that it was all a ploy for more sex.

 

Don't set yourself up for a big disappointment.

[Phateless]

She has already told me that she loves me and that she cannot imagine her life without me... unfortunately, it's too late! She is a bit better at noticing my needs and I appreciate it. But the sex has got boring now (always too rush otherwise she might not reach orgasm - she says she "misses the train"...) and not that much more frequent (it's the usual average of twice a month, which is better than once a month when we were "battling"). But that's not the real problem now. I just lost the love for her. I feel awkward being near her... I can't touch her anymore. I'm just scared? I don't want to get there after all that's happened. I suppose I don't want to be hurt anymore. I'm sure it's also resentment and anger, deep down...

 

I think that's where I am with my gf. Is it possible to go back? Do I even want to? I don't know and I can't tell and I don't know how to figure it out anymore.

[xxoo]

yes, but look at the title of the thread? That was the OP's ultimate goal and he succeeded... I thought we were talking about that...

 

Oh, yeah, that

 

Giotto, your wife says she loves you, but her actions tell you how MUCH she loves you. She says she can't imagine life without me, but that doesn't exactly mean that she cherishes life with you, you know?

 

If she really loved you, it has been long since time for her to value your needs as much as her own.

 

Sorry it's gotten so sad

[xxoo]

Lets take a hypothetical couple H works W is a SAHM with 2 young kids. Marriage is good except for finances. Turns out W feels they should be saving 15% of their income, H is comfortable spending every penny they earn and says "don't worry it's not like we are in debt or anything". W says - "I feel anxious and insecure without savings and with the idea eventually we will struggle in retirement." H says eventually he will make more, kids will be grown, expenses will go down and THEN they will start to save.

 

They fight about this a lot - because she feels chronically tense and believes that if he really loved her he would make the effort to build up a safety net.

 

Initially she tries so reduce HER spending by clipping coupons etc. But she quickly learns the less she spends the more he spends.

 

Finally W develops a set of behavioral tactics SOLELY aimed at changing his spending pattern. One of them is she creates some relationship insecurity, is less loving towards him because she feels his free spending is largely based on the notion that even if he treats her in a manner that causes her chronic anxiety she won't leave him.

 

My question is this: Is it wrong for the wife to do this? She is changing her behavior purely to change his behavior in this specific area.

 

What is "relationship insecurity"?

 

I believe it is wrong to manipulate a partner with contrived emotional responses.

 

I believe it is fine and honest to clearly state your boundaries and limits, including your dealbreakers: "I can not live paycheck to paycheck," for example. A person has to be willing to walk away if a partner won't budge to compromise on a dealbreaker. That certainly throws in some "relationship insecurity", but it is honest.

 

In your example, I'd think there are serious problems in the relationship if there is no compromise on such a big issue. It shows complete disregard for the partner's peace of mind and happiness (in both directions). IMO, the attempts to manipulate are a bandaid on a gaping wound. I'd always prefer to get to the heart of the issue and improve the relationship from the core.

[JamesM]

Finally W develops a set of behavioral tactics SOLELY aimed at changing his spending pattern. One of them is she creates some relationship insecurity, is less loving towards him because she feels his free spending is largely based on the notion that even if he treats her in a manner that causes her chronic anxiety she won't leave him.

 

My question is this: Is it wrong for the wife to do this? She is changing her behavior purely to change his behavior in this specific area.

 

Yes.

 

...................

[mem11363]

Relationship insecurity - by that I meant something along the lines of:

 

"if this doesn't improve it will destroy our marriage"

 

I see little difference between this situation and a comparable sexual disconnect. In both cases a good partner finds a compromise.

 

And I bring this up because "spender" behavior is pretty hardwired. The saver could do just about anything to "improve" the relationship - but the fact is the quality of the relationship has nothing to do with the spending. The spender just likes to get what they want. As for the anxiety it causes their partner, they simply believe their partner should stop worrying.

 

Very similar to many HD/LD interactions. LD spouse thinks HD spouse simply shouldn't be so focused on/obsessed about sex. The HD spouse feels the LD spouse is largely indifferent to their misery.

 

 

 

 

What is "relationship insecurity"?

 

I believe it is wrong to manipulate a partner with contrived emotional responses.

 

I believe it is fine and honest to clearly state your boundaries and limits, including your dealbreakers: "I can not live paycheck to paycheck," for example. A person has to be willing to walk away if a partner won't budge to compromise on a dealbreaker. That certainly throws in some "relationship insecurity", but it is honest.

 

In your example, I'd think there are serious problems in the relationship if there is no compromise on such a big issue. It shows complete disregard for the partner's peace of mind and happiness (in both directions). IMO, the attempts to manipulate are a bandaid on a gaping wound. I'd always prefer to get to the heart of the issue and improve the relationship from the core.

[Jack & Coke]

yes, but look at the title of the thread? That was the OP's ultimate goal and he succeeded... I thought we were talking about that.

 

 

 

See, I fail to see what the problem is. If he had said "How I started getting sex from my wife" thatd be one thing. But he said "How I got MY wife into sex," meaning she isn't some poor woman wrapped up in his evil horny web. SHE ENJOYS IT. I think that's one fact of this thread that is getting criminally overlooked.

 

He created an environment where there's no pressure and got her to open her mind and realize what kind of fun the two of them can have. No one is "getting any" from the other, they're GIVING each other a healthy dose of good sex and knocking each others socks off in the bedroom. Why would she get upset and "wise up" if he's extinguishing her sexual fire every night and making her feel like a woman again?

 

This is saving their relationship more than anything. You're honing in on the "game" aspect and forgetting that this is EXACTLY what his wife wants and needs.

[Phateless]

See, I fail to see what the problem is. If he had said "How I started getting sex from my wife" thatd be one thing. But he said "How I got MY wife into sex," meaning she isn't some poor woman wrapped up in his evil horny web. SHE ENJOYS IT. I think that's one fact of this thread that is getting criminally overlooked.

 

He created an environment where there's no pressure and got her to open her mind and realize what kind of fun the two of them can have. No one is "getting any" from the other, they're GIVING each other a healthy dose of good sex and knocking each others socks off in the bedroom. Why would she get upset and "wise up" if he's extinguishing her sexual fire every night and making her feel like a woman again?

 

This is saving their relationship more than anything. You're honing in on the "game" aspect and forgetting that this is EXACTLY what his wife wants and needs.

 

I completely agree with you, and the attitude here is why I rarely come to LS anymore. People need to untwist their panties and pull their heads out of their asses.

[JamesM]

I completely agree with you, and the attitude here is why I rarely come to LS anymore. People need to untwist their panties and pull their heads out of their asses.

 

If everyone simply posted that they agree and no one posted some opposing and provocative thoughts, then there would be no discussion. And if there were no discussion, then what would be the purpose of the thread.

 

Many times I (as do others) ask questions and present opposing viewpoints for getting better explanations and greater understanding.

 

Perhaps it would have been much simpler if we had all simply said "Atta boy" and left it at that.

 

BTW...This has nothing to do with anal s*x.

[Phateless]

If everyone simply posted that they agree and no one posted some opposing and provocative thoughts, then there would be no discussion. And if there were no discussion, then what would be the purpose of the thread.

 

Many times I (as do others) ask questions and present opposing viewpoints for getting better explanations and greater understanding.

 

Perhaps it would have been much simpler if we had all simply said "Atta boy" and left it at that.

 

BTW...This has nothing to do with anal s*x.

 

It's not about opposing viewpoints, it's about people blatantly ignoring relevant parts of the original post so that they can get all butt-hurt and vent their frustrations from like situations which don't REALLY apply.

 

Dude didn't manipulate his wife; he took his power back and treated her how she wanted to be treated. She's happier, but people ignore that part and go off on their rants and get all upset.

 

I have a lot I'm going through lately but I haven't posted because I know I'll just get a sh*t-storm of negative comments that judge me, tell me I shouldn't have done that, etc as compared to the less common but genuinely helpful posts I might also see.

 

It's the overall climate of this forum that I'm complaining about, and I know you know what I'm talking about. Don't make me go hunting down your posts to prove it!

[giotto]

I think that's where I am with my gf. Is it possible to go back? Do I even want to? I don't know and I can't tell and I don't know how to figure it out anymore.

 

well, I have no advice for you... run out of ideas myself... I'm past caring...

[Phateless]

well, I have no advice for you... run out of ideas myself... I'm past caring...

 

So why haven't you left her yet?

[mem11363]

I know why you want to stay - the kids. And why she wants you to stay - the kids. Clearly she has trashed the sexual part of your marriage. She is constantly trying to find the minimum frequency that won't cause a divorce and you feel awful and rejected.

 

Why don't you tell her you wish to stay together at least until the kids are grown - and that you have decided the only win-win option is for you to find a girlfriend.

 

Face it - if you stay calm and logical about it you can simply insist that clearly she doesn't see sex as an important part of a relationship, so she really has no basis for being upset that you are going outside the marriage unless she fears that it is a precursor to leaving her. And I think you should be honest with her that unless she makes it actively miserable by giving you grief about getting your needs met - you will stay until the kids are grown.

 

I think it is time she shows you she loves you enough to put "HER" needs aside and let you find some measure of the happiness she is not able/willing to provide you.

 

My guess is that "suddenly" twice a month will go to once a week - but is that what you really want? Your wife has consistently shown that:

- with no pressure she NEVER has sex with you

- when you bring it up like a normal person she attacks you for pressuring her in fact you are not allowed to initiate at all since it upsets her

- she tries to convince you that marital celibacy is normal

- only when you threaten divorce does she suddenly become more considerate of your needs

 

She may threaten to divorce you - but I doubt she will. I think she also recognizes the logistical challenges of 4 kids and a divorce.

 

If you are thinking of divorce anyway, why not do this? What do you have to lose?

 

well, I have no advice for you... run out of ideas myself... I'm past caring...

[Phateless]

Playing hardball doesn't work against feminine pride.

[xxoo]

Relationship insecurity - by that I meant something along the lines of:

 

"if this doesn't improve it will destroy our marriage"

 

Ok, that is different from what I was imagining (I was imagining pulling away without explaining why, or something like that).

 

If this is honest and true, I think it is an important thing to communicate clearly.

 

I see little difference between this situation and a comparable sexual disconnect. In both cases a good partner finds a compromise.

 

Bolded: I definitely agree.

 

And I bring this up because "spender" behavior is pretty hardwired. The saver could do just about anything to "improve" the relationship - but the fact is the quality of the relationship has nothing to do with the spending. The spender just likes to get what they want. As for the anxiety it causes their partner, they simply believe their partner should stop worrying.

 

Very similar to many HD/LD interactions. LD spouse thinks HD spouse simply shouldn't be so focused on/obsessed about sex. The HD spouse feels the LD spouse is largely indifferent to their misery.

 

Bolded: the same can be said in reverse. The LD spouse feels the HD spouse is largely indifferent to their misery (pressure to have sex, psychological discomfort having sex when not interested, sometimes physical discomfort for women, too).

 

But yes, mem, I see you point. And I agree with this approach (direct, honest).

[mem11363]

xxoo,

I used to be grossly guilty of being insensitive to whether or not my wife "wanted to". I am ashamed. I think I have about a 10 to 1 ratio of her humoring me - vs. me forgoing sex. Luckily I think she feels that outside the bedroom the ratio is somewhat reversed otherwise she might not like me so much .

 

After over a decade together I realized it is not nice to push. In fact when I can tell she really doesn't want to - usually a beautiful thing happens - I don't want to either.

 

As for the HD/LD dynamic - it goes way beyond a raw frequency mismatch. It truly is toxic and frankly to a degree abusive for the HD spouse to constantly broadcast an "I am horny" signal at a partner with a much lower drive.

 

Much nicer to read your partner and mirror their sexual affect.

 

With that said - I think the LD spouse is equally responsible for teaching the HD spouse how to read the landscape, and also for teaching their HD spouse how to get them aroused when they are "neutral".

 

I can speak from true personal experience on the opposite side of the table. There have definitely been nights where I was "neutral" and allowed my wonderful wife to get me there without her ever knowing I wasn't really into it at the start. My rough estimate is that I owe her at least another couple thousand nights of that type before we are even close to parity :)

 

Actually - I am going to stop self describing as HD as it simply isn't true anymore. I am now much more happily medium drive MD.

 

Ok, that is different from what I was imagining (I was imagining pulling away without explaining why, or something like that).

 

If this is honest and true, I think it is an important thing to communicate clearly.

 

 

 

Bolded: I definitely agree.

 

 

 

Bolded: the same can be said in reverse. The LD spouse feels the HD spouse is largely indifferent to their misery (pressure to have sex, psychological discomfort having sex when not interested, sometimes physical discomfort for women, too).

 

But yes, mem, I see you point. And I agree with this approach (direct, honest).

[giotto]

I know why you want to stay - the kids. And why she wants you to stay - the kids. Clearly she has trashed the sexual part of your marriage. She is constantly trying to find the minimum frequency that won't cause a divorce and you feel awful and rejected.

 

Why don't you tell her you wish to stay together at least until the kids are grown - and that you have decided the only win-win option is for you to find a girlfriend.

 

Face it - if you stay calm and logical about it you can simply insist that clearly she doesn't see sex as an important part of a relationship, so she really has no basis for being upset that you are going outside the marriage unless she fears that it is a precursor to leaving her. And I think you should be honest with her that unless she makes it actively miserable by giving you grief about getting your needs met - you will stay until the kids are grown.

 

I think it is time she shows you she loves you enough to put "HER" needs aside and let you find some measure of the happiness she is not able/willing to provide you.

 

My guess is that "suddenly" twice a month will go to once a week - but is that what you really want? Your wife has consistently shown that:

- with no pressure she NEVER has sex with you

- when you bring it up like a normal person she attacks you for pressuring her in fact you are not allowed to initiate at all since it upsets her

- she tries to convince you that marital celibacy is normal

- only when you threaten divorce does she suddenly become more considerate of your needs

 

She may threaten to divorce you - but I doubt she will. I think she also recognizes the logistical challenges of 4 kids and a divorce.

 

If you are thinking of divorce anyway, why not do this? What do you have to lose?

 

yes, she has destroyed the sexual side of our marriage and yes, I'm staying for the kids. As I said before, we don't argue, we get along and together we can offer them more financial security, especially now that the oldest is going to university.

 

As far as getting a "girlfriend" is concerned: she's clearly stated to me that she'd rather divorce me than allow me to have another woman going at the same time. It's up to me, really. She knows - and finally admitted - that her issues have had a terrible impact on me, but what she is giving me now is the most she can give me. So, it's up to me. If I want more, we'll have to go separate ways and divorce. She doesn't expect me to be here if I don't want to. On the other hand, she is not doing anything at all to fix her issues (the therapy promise never materialised). She is happy the way she is. Obviously, she doesn't need love and affection as I do. The children are enough for her, to the point that she proposed a sexless marriage at some point.

 

Well, all of this have brought me to brink of divorce and nervous breakdown. Now, for my own sanity, I have accepted the situation, but my confidence and my life have been shattered to pieces. I can only re-built myself now. My love for her has gone. It's a sad realisation, but it is the way it is. I'm very very disappointed in her. I'm a very good man, good looking, intelligent, with a good job, supporting my family. It's quite sad she can't see that anymore. She is too wrapped-up in her issues, which have destroyed our marriage. It's such a shame, because I would never have thought this could happen to us... but I was wrong.

[crjames100]

Here's an unconventional approach....

 

I call it the Secret Diary Method....

 

And I probably have a different view (for potentially self-benefiting reasons), but sexual desirability fluctuates...

 

In most cases, I would estimate (98% of the time) when the woman's interest goes down, the guy rarely/never asks himself if he could do things differently...

 

He keeps "asking for sex" (instead of triggering arousal)...

 

And she keeps "giving excuses" (as if she's calling in for work)...

 

I tell my clients to create a "secret diary" filled with entries detailing times

when she was REEEEAAALLLY TURNED ON....

 

If you can think (recall) of a time when she was Super Horny, then you would write about the situation...

 

Make a note of everything... Kind of like you're gathering information at a crime scene...lol

 

* what foods she ate

* how she felt about you that day

* what emotions she was experiencing

* what you said to her

* etc.

 

In most "cases", when a guy experiences his wife being turned on more so than normal, the guy is "unknowingly" performing a BRILLIANT STRATEGY for triggering her arousal...

 

So the idea, it to build a database (as geeky as it may sound) of SUCCESS FILES...

 

That way you can start doing things "on purpose" that are based on (pretty similar) to the entries in the "seduction diary"...