How I got MY wife into sex

[Jack & Coke]

HV,

Do you believe your vows require that you allow her to slowly and inexorably suck the life force out of you while you must adhere to the letter of the law?

 

If you do, obviously that is your right. Each of us as to live by our own code of conduct. Personally I have found that the odd paradox of marriage is that many women are overall happier when their mate firmly (and sometimes harshly) responds when the wife is breaching her OWN marital vows.

 

I have heard this referred to as "male fitness testing". I have been on the receiving end of a steady stream of such behavior and have found that a very firm (sometimes humorous) response is rewarded with more loving and often more passionate behavior in the days/weeks that follow.

 

I used to resent these tests - now I simply accept them as an entertaining part of the emotional obstacle course that is part of any marriage. It seems to be some sort of male/female dynamic that I wish my father had explained to me in my youth.

 

 

Ah, those tests... They definitely keep me on my toes and in shape. I kind of look at it as constant training for some future war. If I can't handle the little attitudes or tests with grace how could I handle a serious problem that has the potential to rock our marriage?

 

I learned to embrace these tests and deal with them kind of like a challenge. If nothing else it kills the monotony.

[Jack & Coke]

You and other guys in marriages where you are constantly being "tested" by your wives, or perceive that as being the case, need to get to the point where she understands that she has no prerogative to "test" you.

 

If you're letting yourself be "tested" repeatedly, then you've already failed the primary test.

 

Nah, it's nothing serious or else it'd drive me crazy. A lot of it I think is kind of like all day foreplay. Because it never fails, whenever I feel like I'm in the middle of a "test," it ends up being a good night.

[mem11363]

Jack,

Right there with you.

 

Ah, those tests... They definitely keep me on my toes and in shape. I kind of look at it as constant training for some future war. If I can't handle the little attitudes or tests with grace how could I handle a serious problem that has the potential to rock our marriage?

 

I learned to embrace these tests and deal with them kind of like a challenge. If nothing else it kills the monotony.

[mem11363]

Jack,

This is absolutely without question foreplay in our house. And since I am now very practiced it is much more like a professional wrestling match - a lot of cleverly choreographed throws and hits - absolutely no damage. Quite entertaining.

 

In the beginning of our marriage - when I had no idea what the fuvk was happening it was the emotional equivalent (we have never hit each other) of a bar brawl. Intense - unpredictable - and damaging.

 

 

Nah, it's nothing serious or else it'd drive me crazy. A lot of it I think is kind of like all day foreplay. Because it never fails, whenever I feel like I'm in the middle of a "test," it ends up being a good night.

[Jack & Coke]

Jack,

This is absolutely without question foreplay in our house. And since I am now very practiced it is much more like a professional wrestling match - a lot of cleverly choreographed throws and hits - absolutely no damage. Quite entertaining.

 

In the beginning of our marriage - when I had no idea what the fuvk was happening it was the emotional equivalent (we have never hit each other) of a bar brawl. Intense - unpredictable - and damaging.

 

Exactly. Somebody told me a while ago "emotional dudes aren't built for marriage." I didn't all the way get it at first but it makes perfect sense now. I too had that "what the f*ck?" feeling in the beginning and would spaz out trying to make sense of things with her. The ability to take a step back and not go on that roller coaster ride with the wife is invaluable.

[Honorable_Venerable]

The mistake here is IMO a conceptual one, which many people seem to share with you and your spouse.

 

That conceptual error is as follows: Many many people seem to erroneously believe, or have a mental framework, that a reasonably regular and active sex life with one's spouse is "optional" rather than the "default" as it should be.

 

.

This is based on the entirely mad view that marriage vows absolutely require you EXPLICITLY to not have sex with anyone EXCEPT your spouse, but there is just barely an implicit suggestion you have sex with your spouse.

 

It's not like a TV, where you buy it and expect it to pick up the channels - if it doesn't you take it back. There's no expectatoin that this TV switches on and if it doesn't, tough.

[Honorable_Venerable]

This is interesting because this goes back to the issue of "personal integrity." In order to "solve" the problems in your marriage, if that is possible (which it may not be), both your spouse and yourself must first address the issue of personal integrity.

 

 

Edit: Let me add that your screenname "honorable venerable" probably provides significant clues as to where your head is at. Why do you want to be perceived in such pompous terms?

As opposed to something that means nothing in any language? I'm good with it.

 

I never cheat in business, but neither to do I fall over if a potential customer tells me I'm too expensive. I'll politely tell him he won't find a "bargain" and if he does, he should check what he's paying for. Once he becomes a customer I bust ass to make sure his work comes in on time, on price and on quality, and offer him value added if I can.

 

As for people who make ad hominem insulting comments however, nothing in my sense of personal integrity requires me to treat them politely, so consider you have got yourself a freebie here. Thank you and goodbye.

[Honorable_Venerable]

It's true that the marriage vows don't mention ensuring that you are treated well. But you were an individual deserving basic human respect and kindness before marriage, and you are an individual deserving basic human respect and kindness after marriage. It was your parents' job to instill that value in you before taking any marriage vows.

Hey, I think I did get that memo - it's my wife who doesn't consider that a sexual relationship in marriage constitutes part of the "basic human respect and kindness" definition.

 

That's the fear. It isn't about you becoming mean and scary. It is about you standing up and saying, "This is my limit. This is what treatment I will and will not tolerate. This is where I leave." Mem's point is that assertiveness can, ironically, sometimes genuinely reignite sexual passion. Some women like to take advantage of doormats, but, as a rule, we don't get excited about sex with doormats. Repeat: we don't get excited about sex with doormats.

If I leave, I lose half of the house, get to carry on paying for her and in all probability custody of my children.

I'm about as likely to cut off my leg to improve my running ability! I can lose, she can't. It's an empty threat and she would know it. I might as well threaten to burn the house down with her in it. She knows, and I know, it would never happen, so all I would be doing is setting myself to fail, since she knows I either carry through and lose everything or I stay and can be seen to make empty threats. This is not helpful.

[Honorable_Venerable]

oh, no, HV, not the oaths! What about your wife's oaths? Does she remember them? You see, you are playing fair, and she is not....

Like I've said, we BOTH swore to not sleep with anyone else - no one mentioned having an obligation to have sex with each other.

 

If I decide to abandon my integrity to "beat her" atr this, what do I lose by so doing? Do I think, next time I'll just get some on the side or find an escort?

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

Do you believe your vows require that you allow her to slowly and inexorably suck the life force out of you while you must adhere to the letter of the law?

Yes - that's what an oath is about. If that isn't what an oath is about, but only something you do when it suits you or is easy, it isn't an oath. It's a PROMISE, not a vague suggestion for when you feel like it, and just because she doesn't keep her oaths is no reason for me not to. That's like saying just because some people break the law we should all break the law. I don't think you'd agree with that, from what I read of your character, so why is this different?

 

I have heard this referred to as "male fitness testing". I have been on the receiving end of a steady stream of such behavior and have found that a very firm (sometimes humorous) response is rewarded with more loving and often more passionate behavior in the days/weeks that follow.

 

I used to resent these tests - now I simply accept them as an entertaining part of the emotional obstacle course that is part of any marriage. It seems to be some sort of male/female dynamic that I wish my father had explained to me in my youth.

I've never heard of this - if she has I'd be staggered. I'll do some more reading

[Jack & Coke]

If I leave, I lose half of the house, get to carry on paying for her and in all probability custody of my children.

I'm about as likely to cut off my leg to improve my running ability! I can lose, she can't. It's an empty threat and she would know it. I might as well threaten to burn the house down with her in it. She knows, and I know, it would never happen, so all I would be doing is setting myself to fail, since she knows I either carry through and lose everything or I stay and can be seen to make empty threats. This is not helpful.

 

 

Damn. Sounds like a hostage situation.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Damn. Sounds like a hostage situation.

Yes. Raising it to Mexican standoff would be an improvement!

[Jack & Coke]

Yes - that's what an oath is about. If that isn't what an oath is about, but only something you do when it suits you or is easy, it isn't an oath. It's a PROMISE, not a vague suggestion for when you feel like it, and just because she doesn't keep her oaths is no reason for me not to. That's like saying just because some people break the law we should all break the law. I don't think you'd agree with that, from what I read of your character, so why is this different?

 

 

I look at it more like the no fighting in school rule. Where I grew up, both people get suspended 10 days, no matter who started the fight. So even if someone bullies you or hauls off and sucker punches you unprovoked, if you defend yourself you're still suspended.

 

Even with this knowledge, you bet that whenever I have kids I'll teach them to defend themselves and take the suspension that comes with it. Rules are rules but you can't let somebody walk all over you. I'd be more upset at my kid for sitting there and taking a beating every day without trying to defend his or herself than I would if they put up a fight and end up with a mark on their record.

 

In otherwise, I see it more as a matter of self preservation than matching a "wrong" with a "wrong". Sticking around to be grossly mistreated for the sake of vows is loyal but not necessarily honorable.

[Jack & Coke]

Yes. Raising it to Mexican standoff would be an improvement!

 

Lol.......

[Honorable_Venerable]

You are psychologically constrained.

 

The limitations you perceive on your range of potential actions to deal with the situation you are in, are almost entirely self-imposed. You most certainly could get divorced even if it meant a big financial hit. You choose not to. Similarly you could follow the various "power-building" suggestions from people like mem if you want to try to actively create a more satisfactory marital situation. Again you choose not to based on your subjective notion of personal integrity and of what the marriage commitment unilaterally obligates you to.

Wrong, because my wife will (not might, can, could, but WILL) interpret these as aggressive acts, thus if / when there is an irretriveable breakdown, it puts cards in her hand.

Therefore if you truly wish to "do nothing," then at least give yourself power by acceptance of doing nothing as your own voluntary choice. Don't present yourself as a powerless individual and then make that a self-fulfilling prophecy.

 

No, you don't have to get divorced if your cost benefit analysis suggests it would be too financially expensive. But you do have the choice. That's really all you need to do: allow yourself the choice.

 

You are apparently very effective in other aspects of your life but not in this aspect of your life.

I think you fail to understand the difference between choice and credible choice. I could choose to murder my wife with an axe and the issue of her sexual proclivities would cease at a stroke. Is this a credible choice? Of course not.

I suspect what is really happening in your relationship with your spouse, is that you are somehow playing out family of origin issues, perhaps as a child you had a very dominating parent or sibling who you feared; and now your wife has fallen into that role, and you have fallen back into your role of the fearful child.

Dear Mr Freud, please go back to Vienna, your input is unwelcome here.

 

I strongly suggest that you seek individual counseling to at least help you understand why you insist that you lack choices when you so obviously are not lacking for choices. Perhaps they seem unpalatable to the alternatives but they are available choices nevertheless.

 

You are living the life that you choose to live, right now, and you need to take responsibility for that, and stop blaming your imperfect spouse for your own failure to take positive action to change and/or improve your situation.

If I take more "ownership" of the issue of my imperfect spouse how will this help? Come on, real, concrete, tangible, quantifiable answers. Please don't give me any new age BS about feeling "empowered". People who think like that are the same sort of fools who tell you you can overcome physical disability by "owning" it and that if you do that your missing leg won't be a problem. We're all adults here, please don't try to sell us snake oil.

[giotto]

so, you know you are stuck and there is no solution (for whatever your reason is)... I hope you enjoy the venting...

[Honorable_Venerable]

so, you know you are stuck and there is no solution (for whatever your reason is)... I hope you enjoy the venting...

I do enjoy the venting. As for the solution, I just haven't found the it yet. However, I remain to be convinced that violence, fear, rape, lying, breaking promises, coercion, mind games, threats, or flinging pots and pans are viable answers.

[mem11363]

HV,

Are you saying that if you were to insist on being treated like an equal your W would escalate and maybe ultimately divorce you?

 

 

Wrong, because my wife will (not might, can, could, but WILL) interpret these as aggressive acts, thus if / when there is an irretriveable breakdown, it puts cards in her hand.

 

I think you fail to understand the difference between choice and credible choice. I could choose to murder my wife with an axe and the issue of her sexual proclivities would cease at a stroke. Is this a credible choice? Of course not.

 

Dear Mr Freud, please go back to Vienna, your input is unwelcome here.

 

If I take more "ownership" of the issue of my imperfect spouse how will this help? Come on, real, concrete, tangible, quantifiable answers. Please don't give me any new age BS about feeling "empowered". People who think like that are the same sort of fools who tell you you can overcome physical disability by "owning" it and that if you do that your missing leg won't be a problem. We're all adults here, please don't try to sell us snake oil.

[mem11363]

I agree with Jumbo, you do whats right and if the other person chooses to go nuclear - that is on their head not yours.

 

 

I did not speak of how your wife would react to the choices you make. That was deliberate on my part. Ultimately you have no actual "control" over your wife's behavior. You have control only over your own behavior.

 

If as you suspect taking certain actions will result in certain reactions by your wife, that still does not deprive you of the choice to take that particular action. You do not have to take an action if you fear the reaction from your wife. But you need to understand: 1) you are making a choice; 2) you are motivated by fear, fear of your wife's reaction; 3) you could well be mistaken as to the reaction such a choice will elicit.

 

I think that is the key point you are missing in what I think mem (and others) are saying.

 

Where is this fear of your wife's reaction actually coming from? That's what you need to try to understand.

 

Let's say you do something and it "puts cards" in your wife's hand. Why are you fearful of how you think she will play those cards? Why do you think, if she plays those cards in that way, you will not be able to formulate a satisfactory counter-response?

 

Also, you need to realize that by the "way you are playing it" right now, your wife has a hand which consists of four Aces. Right now, you are terrified to make any changes because of what you fear she is capable of doing. You've lost the game without even really playing it.

 

 

 

 

On the contrary I understand such things quite well, I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about them. In my own life I strive to take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for the situation I am in. Yes I gripe and moan as does everyone from time to time. But I derive my power from bestowing the control upon myself. Of course that means I am responsible for my situation and....I can't complain about anyone else's power over me! Because unless they're physically holding me hostage, they don't really have any more power over me than I am willing to give them.

 

The same is true for all of us and it is just a matter of realizing it.

 

In any case your next comment, which I will respond to, shows that you are not really thinking rationally and objectively about these issues, but rather, emotionally:

 

 

 

 

This statement proves you are simply not looking at things objectively and rationally. NO ONE has EVER suggested you "murder" your wife, do her physical violence, nor abuse her in ANY way. At most divorce has been presented to you as an ultimate option. But the option of divorce has always existed for you, and will continue to exist, as a perfectly legal, moral, and ethical option. Similarly you didn't have to choose to get married in the first place. Milder behavioral suggestions to try to regain your marital power have been proposed by mem and others, all short of threatening divorce, which you equally reject. At no time has mem suggested that you abuse your wife, the opposite is the case.

 

All I suggested was that you should acknowledge that you have the POWER to divorce your wife. Therefore it is within your realm of available choices. Therefore NOT divorcing your wife is not a function of compulsion; it is a matter of CHOICE. YOUR choice. To acknowledge that it is your CHOICE to stay married to your wife is unpalatable to you, because then it places 100% of the responsibility for remaining married to her, in your hands.

 

If nothing is within your power to change, if you have no options, then you don't have to hold yourself responsible for your life.

 

But you should at least be able to step back and see that your comparison of divorce to murder, and not just murder but axe murder, (i.e. the most gruesome kind of murder), is irrational and non-objective.

 

For all intents and purposes you're looking at your life as if in a dream-like state. You are now at the point however where you hopefully will begin "lucid dreaming." You need to pinch yourself awake. Your conception of your marital reality is dream-like (nightmare like actually). You believe yourself to be "trapped" in a nightmarish scenario in which you have no control over what happens. That's not reality. That's a dream. It's time to pinch yourself.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You take ownership of your own responsibility for your own life. Part of that requires you to acknowledge that you have married a human being who is imperfect. You are also imperfect. We all are.

 

 

 

 

I have given them to you. 1. You have to wake up from the dream like state. 2. You have to acknowledge that your life IS fully within your control and YOU ALONE are responsible for the choices you make, and fail to make, and their consequences. 3. You need to realize that you are irrationally motivated by fear of your wife (which is why I think she must be a proxy for someone else from your past). 4. Regardless of whatever terrible consequences you fear she may impose upon you in your efforts to take action to improve your situation, you must nevertheless find a way to overcome your fear. 5. I offered the concrete solution of individual counseling which you have totally rejected. This is part of your mind-set of fear and lack of control, a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure. Speaking with a qualified counselor in real life would at least give you a more objective perspective of your situation and might help you find a workable solution. 6. Others such as mem etc. have offered various solutions up to and including divorce which you rejected as akin to "axe murder."

 

 

 

 

 

My perspective is not new age at all. It is existentialist. Mixed with a little bit of Zen Buddhism.

 

I hate to be blunt, but since you don't like what you refer to as "new age", basically, your primary problem is that you are a whining little baby who doesn't have the balls to take control of his life, get off his @ss, and actually do something about his situation because he's afraid of his wife.

 

Grow up and start acting like a man. Given your prior over sensitive reactions to what I've previously posted you're likely to go crying off to the moderators. I hope not. But I don't really care. You sound like a big effin' baby. THAT'S why your wife gives you no respect.

 

Again: Grow. the. heck. up.

 

 

 

 

Then strap your balls on, start acting like a man, and stop whining so much.

[tnttim]

You guys are wasting your breath. HV doesn't take anyone's advice. He comes here and acts like he knows everything by putting down peoples posts. Maybe if he had that attitude with his wife, she would change her tune.

[mem11363]

Jack,

Your post resonated. And your sense of humor is delightful. How about this as a draft emotional blueprint for the ideal man:

- Low affect (I LIKE IT that my wife is high affect - most of the time it expresses itself as happiness - she radiates happiness - yes she is a bit volatile but I think that is part of the fun)

- Good listener, able to empathize, able to consistently resist the urge to solve every fuvking problem she mentions.

- Strong shoulders during dark days ("Everything is going to be ok - and I am going to do whatever you need to help you")

- Good follow through (really deliver when she NEEDS help - don't talk - do)

- Funny (humor amplifies good times, can be used to increase self awareness and defuse conflict)

- Tough (able to say and mean "that is not acceptable to me")

- Self contained (when W temporarily goes batsheit crazy and behaves badly, able to steadily drop the emotional temperature in the house while remaining friendly and relaxed - hey when she gets cold enough she will want to kiss and makeup)

- Kevlar wrapped balls - making him impossible to emasculate

- Highly skilled at knowing just how much love/attention/focus she wants. And disciplined enough to project less love than she wants - giving her control over the last 10 degrees of the intimacy thermostat. Nobody wants to fuvk in a house that is overheated.

- Positive attitude and proactive problem solving mindset

- Hardworking as hell

- Highly committed to the marriage, the job etc. but never "caught/trapped"

- A student of her emotional landscape and her body - able to create desire outside the bedroom using the former - and bring her to the rapture using the latter.

 

 

Exactly. Somebody told me a while ago "emotional dudes aren't built for marriage." I didn't all the way get it at first but it makes perfect sense now. I too had that "what the f*ck?" feeling in the beginning and would spaz out trying to make sense of things with her. The ability to take a step back and not go on that roller coaster ride with the wife is invaluable.

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

Are you saying that if you were to insist on being treated like an equal your W would escalate and maybe ultimately divorce you?

Unless you can show me a way that allows me to effectively insist without lying, coercion (however defined), fear, force or intimidation, yes. In such a case the phrase "phyrric victory" wouldn't start to quantify my position.

[Honorable_Venerable]

 

 

Where is this fear of your wife's reaction actually coming from? That's what you need to try to understand.

A married life hearing her state what should happen to men like that and her view of what she would do if I did. The fact she has backed two firends in doing this. You'll probably say this is not "evidence", in that until she actually carries through it may not be real. I suppose therefore there was no "evidence" that any sort of aggresion would have resulted in nuclear anihillation during the Cold War.

 

Let's say you do something and it "puts cards" in your wife's hand. Why are you fearful of how you think she will play those cards? Why do you think, if she plays those cards in that way, you will not be able to formulate a satisfactory counter-response?

For the simple reason that it will result in going to law. In the UK, a man winning custody of his children and a successful settlement is a newsworthy item, becasue it's that rare.

Also, you need to realize that by the "way you are playing it" right now, your wife has a hand which consists of four Aces. Right now, you are terrified to make any changes because of what you fear she is capable of doing. You've lost the game without even really playing it.

Let's say I play tennis against Roger Federer - I don't need to play him to know that outside the chance of him breaking a leg on court he will wipe the floor with me. In a diverce case my odds of winning are similar.

 

 

On the contrary I understand such things quite well, I have spent quite a lot of time thinking about them. In my own life I strive to take FULL RESPONSIBILITY for the situation I am in. Yes I gripe and moan as does everyone from time to time. But I derive my power from bestowing the control upon myself. Of course that means I am responsible for my situation and....I can't complain about anyone else's power over me! Because unless they're physically holding me hostage, they don't really have any more power over me than I am willing to give them.

If somewhat robs your house, does ownership and rsponsibility get you your property back?

All I suggested was that you should acknowledge that you have the POWER to divorce your wife. Therefore it is within your realm of available choices. Therefore NOT divorcing your wife is not a function of compulsion; it is a matter of CHOICE. YOUR choice. To acknowledge that it is your CHOICE to stay married to your wife is unpalatable to you, because then it places 100% of the responsibility for remaining married to her, in your hands.

I have it in my power to jump under a bus. Should I do that? No one is compelling me not to. My choice not to divorce my wife is based on a) an ethical position, and b) the fact that I will lose my children and my money. Yes it's a choice. Is it rational or useful? If my choices are not guided by consequences and ethics, whats the difference?

 

 

 

 

Grow up and start acting like a man. Given your prior over sensitive reactions to what I've previously posted you're likely to go crying off to the moderators. I hope not. But I don't really care. You sound like a big effin' baby. THAT'S why your wife gives you no respect.

 

Again: Grow. the. heck. up.

 

 

 

 

Then strap your balls on, start acting like a man, and stop whining so much.

What the the options that do not involve using the imparting of fear, coercion, violence, untruth and aggrression against her?

[giotto]

Unless you can show me a way that allows me to effectively insist without lying, coercion (however defined), fear, force or intimidation, yes. In such a case the phrase "phyrric victory" wouldn't start to quantify my position.

 

HV, I know where you are coming from, because I too believe there is no point in "forcing" anybody to do what you would like them to do... since you don't want to threaten divorce or play other little games (suggested here), you are only left with one option: reasoning with your wife, maybe through marriage counselling? I don't really know your exact situation: do you still love here? Do you want to fix your marriage? Does your wife say she loves you? You only talked about the sex side of it, but we don't have enough info regarding the rest...

[xxoo]

Hey, I think I did get that memo - it's my wife who doesn't consider that a sexual relationship in marriage constitutes part of the "basic human respect and kindness" definition.

 

Basic human kindness and respect doesn't require her to engage in a sexual relationship with you, but it does require her to CARE about your desires, needs, and experiences as an individual she loves. Dismissing your sexual needs, knowing that it causes you misery and pain, is ultimately very unkind It would be different if she clearly cared, respected your needs as an individual, and was open to working on the problem.

 

If you are going to stay married (and apparently you are), I agree with Giotto that marriage counseling is the only reasonable choice. Focus on the lack of mutual care and love in the relationship, rather than the lack of sex. The sex is just a symptom, imo.