How I got MY wife into sex

[mem11363]

I agree also.

 

HV,

What is her mother like?

 

 

Maybe "mentally ill" was too strong a choice of words.

 

I believe the situation with the OP's wife involves a dysfunctional relationship between the wife and her family, specifically her mother/OP's mother in law.

 

This is based on what OP said about his wife directly taking her marching orders about marital sex from his mother in law. This is an attitude that was transferred from the mother in law to the wife (and wife's sister).

 

OP's wife knows something is very wrong about her attitude towards marital sex which is why she feels shame about his attempts to address it.

 

Most likely the OP's mother in law is a cold, domineering and controlling person. Also guessing the OP's father in law was either not around or had a very weak personality. Most likely OP's father in law was deprived as well.

 

So I "agree."

[mem11363]

G,

HV has fully communicated this issue for a long time. Apparently you and I have a very different view of human nature. HV has ZERO chance of making progress in this area without upsetting his wife. She is way too comfortable with the status quo.

 

Telling him he should find a way to make progress without "upsetting" her is like telling someone to make an omlette without breaking eggs.

 

ok, so he will have to talk in general terms without mentioning any medical history... fine... so, wouldn't then be better to go to a relationships counsellor? Someone with better knowledge of these issues than your GP?

 

About the shaming thing... I know you think you are right to do that, because she should be ashamed of what she is doing to you, but isn't counter-productive to upset your wife this way? I think the GP thing a bit a "below the belt blow"... now that she's realised that you are serious, you don't want to push it too far and compromise everything... but you probably don't care anymore at this stage...

[tnttim]

but it takes a lot more than what you've described for a woman to "re-learn" her sexuality...

 

It's like riding a bike

[tnttim]

HV, why the hell are going to such an extreme? You are basically castrating yourself with a pill.

 

I understand human nature is to jump to extremes, but common sense usually prevails. I found a lump, I have cancer. It's a very common occurence, but like I said, you talk yourself down.

 

You may not like me, honestly I don't like you either, but my human side says what your doing is unsafe and silly.

[giotto]

It's like riding a bike

 

she never liked riding a bike...

[giotto]

G, Apparently you and I have a very different view of human nature.

 

yes, we have!

 

Telling him he should find a way to make progress without "upsetting" her is like telling someone to make an omlette without breaking eggs.

 

when there is resistance, "forcing" (I called it "shaming") someone into doing something they don't want to do is never going to achieve results. To be honest, I'm quite surprised HV is doing this to his wife, since he said he didn't like any form of coercion. This is coercion. He should have talked to her and booked an appointment with a counsellor, without involving the GP. This is putting undue pressure on his wife and she won't react kindly. To me, he will achieve exactly the opposite... we'll see but I fail to understand how all this will change HV's attitude towards sex......

[tnttim]

I agree Giotto, HV has just solidified his wife's view of sex. At least they can't reproduce anymore!

[vestigalvirgin]

yes, we have!

 

 

 

when there is resistance, "forcing" (I called it "shaming") someone into doing something they don't want to do is never going to achieve results. To be honest, I'm quite surprised HV is doing this to his wife, since he said he didn't like any form of coercion. This is coercion. He should have talked to her and booked an appointment with a counsellor, without involving the GP. This is putting undue pressure on his wife and she won't react kindly. To me, he will achieve exactly the opposite... we'll see but I fail to understand how all this will change HV's attitude towards sex......

 

 

In my opinion, yes, HV's wife is subject to coercion, but it's coming from her own mom. And, it's probably part of a life long pattern of emotional control.

 

I don't know what HV's ethnicity or religion is, but this kind of situation happens in for example a lot of Irish Catholic families where the bride's mother is very religious, church going. Sex is not something to be enjoyed, period. It's dirty.

 

Even if a woman in a younger generation perceives herself as "liberated" in various ways it's very hard to shake off the life long influence of this kind of attitude towards sex.

 

Sometimes girls raised in such a family will have periods when they let loose and sort of go wild--when they go away to college, away from the direct influence of the mother. But over time it's really easy to revert back to the established format. What they were brought up with as a role model.

 

A major problem for HV is that his wife has apparently NEVER broken free of the mother in law's pernicious influence. The mother in law/matriarch is sort of like a black widow spider dominating the younger generation of women. Maybe there are various cousins, aunts, and sisters in law all reinforcing the same outmoded attitudes towards sex between a husband and wife.

 

Rejecting the unhealthy attitude towards sex will be like HV's wife rejecting her own mother. That's why it's so difficult and shameful for her to do. Since HV's wife's "adult ego" incorporates the mother in law, HV's wife will also have to reject a part of her self--a very dysfunctional part, but that's going to be as painful as amputating a limb with a pocket knife.

 

In order to really do this, I suspect that in addition to a lot of counseling and therapy, HV's wife will at some point actually have to engage in a confrontation with the mother in law. Face her down so to speak, because these women seem to gossip among themselves over all aspects of their lives. If HV's wife ever gets there, this will be very difficult for her. She will have to come to the realization that in some sense her own mother deprived her of a large measure of happiness. Although of course she's been an adult and responsible for her own attitudes/behaviors while married to HV, psychologically, she's still a "child" in relation to her own mother.

 

HV's wife is scared, shamed, and fearful because undoubtedly the intellectual side recognizes a lot of this. The emotional side is extremely fearful of the mother in law, even though in reality by now she's probably just a shriveled up old lady who couldn't harm a bug.

 

HV's wife needs to make up her mind what is more important, her own happiness/happy marriage, or continuing to be a subservient/"good" daughter to her mother.

[giotto]

it's actually her wife's mother who said that, once married, the responsibility for sex is her husband's... she bought into this (which is normal, since it's coming from your mother)...

 

Since she grew up with this distorted view of sex, it will take quite a few years of counselling to rectify... I don't know how old HV is, but I hope he is young enough...

[xxoo]

when there is resistance, "forcing" (I called it "shaming") someone into doing something they don't want to do is never going to achieve results. To be honest, I'm quite surprised HV is doing this to his wife, since he said he didn't like any form of coercion. This is coercion. He should have talked to her and booked an appointment with a counsellor, without involving the GP. This is putting undue pressure on his wife and she won't react kindly. To me, he will achieve exactly the opposite... we'll see but I fail to understand how all this will change HV's attitude towards sex......

 

Booking an appt with a counselor is still coercion. She doesn't want to see a counselor and discuss their sex life.

 

That's why he needs to involve the GP--because the wife knows and respects the GP. There is a better chance she'll agree to counseling if the GP recommends it.

[giotto]

Booking an appt with a counselor is still coercion. She doesn't want to see a counselor and discuss their sex life.

 

That's why he needs to involve the GP--because the wife knows and respects the GP. There is a better chance she'll agree to counseling if the GP recommends it.

 

you might be right there, but I still don't understand how two intelligent adults (she is a linguistics scholar) cannot have a constructive dialogue about this...

[Honorable_Venerable]

I agree also.

 

HV,

What is her mother like?

The phrase "opinionated gob****e" is the first thing that comes to mind, but upon due reflection I wouldn't change that. She's always right until the opposite is proved (which it seldom is) and in that case she agreed with you in the first place, even if she actually didn't.

Phew, what a lot of questions - I'll try to answer everything in one go.

 

TNTTIM (no obvious abbreviation for that abbreviation!!!) - I suggested it as the only LOGICAL solution - i.e. she wouldn't consider changing the "supply side" ergo, I have todeal with the demand side. As you (rightly) pointed out, doing nothing was NOT an option (although I didn't agree with the options you yourself used). By having a plan, putting it into operation and ensuring she is aware of the plan, things have changed.

Hopefully you're right re the riding a bike analogy (or more right than Giotto!).

 

Giotti XXOO is right. With her counselling through self-referral is "weak", going via your doctor is OK. I know it's a bit like the difference between a surcharge and a top-up payment (your wallet doesn't notice the difference), but as Margaret Thatcher said "there is no other way"!

 

More later

[Honorable_Venerable]

VV, it isn't a healthy atmosphere with the women on her side: her mother is one of three sisters, she has one sister and four female cousins (no males on her side at all), and her grandmother presiding over all like the great she-elephant. Overall I'd prefer the odds the Magnificent Seven had.

 

Giotto, "intelligent" and "open to other opinions" are not the same. A great many highly intelligent people are so sure they're right that won't discuss things where they might appear to be wrong. My MiL won't discuss things where she knows she might be wrong, although in her case substitute intelligence for "low cunning". Where my wife and I are concerned, were I feeling vindictive I might say I'm a scientist and base my position on facts, data and evidence, but she's a linguist and bases hers on opinion, precedent and translation! But I won't.

 

Thanks all - even TNTTIM!

[giotto]

well, funnily enough, I'm a translator (it's my profession) and I can tell you I'm pretty open to other opinions...

 

Please, keep up posted!

[vestigalvirgin]

VV, it isn't a healthy atmosphere with the women on her side: her mother is one of three sisters, she has one sister and four female cousins (no males on her side at all), and her grandmother presiding over all like the great she-elephant. Overall I'd prefer the odds the Magnificent Seven had.

 

 

Wow that's tough. Three generations of witch fighting against you. With "granny" being the alpha black widow. (But I think I told you this might be a multi-generational issue, didn't I?)

 

It seems to me regardless of whatever counseling your wife may agree to participate in, the only way if any to save this situation is to somehow isolate your wife from the pernicious influence of these family members. As in to somehow move far far away, which most likely is impossible for practical reasons.

 

You're in the same situation as the spouse of a degenerate alcoholic who no matter how many AA meetings they go to, immediately returns to a family full of active alcoholics which completely obliterates anything positive they got from the counseling session.

 

Unfortunately, your wife is well-trapped in the web of the black widows. Because there is no way you can prevent them from undermining whatever benefit your wife can get from counseling, regretfully I must predict it will be a waste of time/money.

 

The only way to save your marriage is to get her, and you, far far away from all of them and from their bad influence.

 

But at this point she might be too stuck in the web, where she has lived since infancy, to even want to escape it.

[mem11363]

HV,

I really believe your approach to this has a lot of merit. Oddly enough I believe this is less of a physical touch/lack of orgasm thing and much more of an imbalance of "love/consideration/effort" issue.

 

While the absence of touch/sex is bad (I remember how it felt being single), I think the real amplifier is the very large imbalance in expressed love. You mention being a scientist - I think of love as a type of energy. I transmit love to my W it makes her feel really good, she transmits back to me and it makes me feel really good. In theory we are all supposed to be able to self sustain by loving ourselves when needed. In practice I have found that SHE is way better at loving me than I am at loving myself. She finds the same is true in reverse.

 

I will try to keep this analogy from getting overly complicated but this whole energy transfer concept is at least valid for me. When our marriage is working well I get an immediate energy boost just from transmitting. I do something kind/helpful/loving and she radiates this uplifting happiness - reflected energy. And then I also get lots of direct infusions of energy when she does loving things for me.

 

When the marriage is good/great there is this constant flow of energy back and forth.

 

I do remember when we had a very large imbalance in workload and she was very inconsiderate of my requests to be more helpful. And over time I got more and more angry/drained. I wasn't as perceptive as you about the whole supply/demand equation but I ultimately reached a breaking point and told her that I was largely shutting down my continuous stream of love to her until she addressed my concerns.

 

Nothing too drastic. I never mentioned divorce, didn't move out of the bedroom. But I stopped being the super helpful, loving partner she was used to. I wasn't harsh or argumentative. I kept going to work and supporting her SAHM situation. She is good with money so my posture on that subject didn't change at all. I DID stop initiating sex at all - I was THAT upset. When she initiated I didn't reject her - but really I largely detached from this tight emotional mesh we had. When she said ILY I said it back - and I did still love her - but I largely stopped "actively loving her".

 

I directly told her I would gladly "power back up" when she addressed my concern which was very simple. I felt totally taken for granted.

 

And while not happy I was less tense, angry and drained that year than I had been in the couple years leading up to it. And within weeks of me powering down, she stepped up. I thanked her for her efforts and was supportive. But I didn't really plug back in for a while - maybe 6 to 12 months because I needed to feel confident that this was real change, not just a temporary thing.

 

 

 

VV, it isn't a healthy atmosphere with the women on her side: her mother is one of three sisters, she has one sister and four female cousins (no males on her side at all), and her grandmother presiding over all like the great she-elephant. Overall I'd prefer the odds the Magnificent Seven had.

 

Giotto, "intelligent" and "open to other opinions" are not the same. A great many highly intelligent people are so sure they're right that won't discuss things where they might appear to be wrong. My MiL won't discuss things where she knows she might be wrong, although in her case substitute intelligence for "low cunning". Where my wife and I are concerned, were I feeling vindictive I might say I'm a scientist and base my position on facts, data and evidence, but she's a linguist and bases hers on opinion, precedent and translation! But I won't.

 

Thanks all - even TNTTIM!

[tnttim]

Mem, what you are talking about is also called the push/pull method, and it works great. Basically when they pull back, and stop be attentive, you do the same thing. You leave them alone, and let them sort out, on their own, what is wrong. The good thing is that they respect you a lot more when you can recognize they need some space. When they come back to Earth and want some attention, then you can pull them in, (if you want to)

 

HV, my ex girlfriend had the same situation with her divorced mother. It's a very hard thing to deal with, especially if you want some respect from her. The old cow hated men, and never respected me no matter what I did. It drove a wedge between us, and I finally snapped and said adios (that's spanish for goodbye) Now With my wife, I found that if I stood my ground without being angry about it, and continued to be a man about things, she would give me respect. I tried to demand it in the past but it never worked. The old saying rang true, respect is never given, it's earned.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Went along today. Things had got somewhat less frosty in the intervening time. W was concerned, wondering what the doctor was going to say to her.

 

He played an absolute blinder, IMO. Explained how *I* had come to him, explained what *I* thought I wanted, and then went over *my* reasons for asking. Never asked *her* anything except "Is what I'm saying clear?".

 

Finally says he cannot see this as a clinical problem, to be solved by medical intervention, but a RELATIONSHIP ISSUE to be dealt with by us, with help from "someone like a marriage guidance counsellor, someone like Relate".

 

She was stunned. I know I could have told her that until hell froze and she would simply have not heard me, but from him, it hit home like it had been driven in with a hammer.

 

When we got bak she asked me how I (me) let it get to this stage! I didn't know whether to laugh or cry so I simply yelled. I really let rip, I'm afraid, all the stuff about the "buyer's market", the "suck it up and get over it", the "married couples don't do that" - I don't feel very good about doing it, and I hope it hasn't hurt, but when she asked my why I hadn't sorted it out, I felt that was a step too far.

 

We've contacted Relate, (in fairness, she made the call) and they will get back to us. AIUI, they do some sort of preliminary assessment, then put you with a counsellor they think is best qualified / suited to you and your issues (can anyone confirm / correct this?).

[Honorable_Venerable]

I hope it hasn't hurt

 

Why are you afraid that you will hurt her?

Unfortunate choice of words - hurt as in "done even more harm" or made her retreat even further, set her up to go off and rebuild the defences, damaged what good I've achieved... You get the picture;)

[giotto]

 

We've contacted Relate, (in fairness, she made the call) and they will get back to us. AIUI, they do some sort of preliminary assessment, then put you with a counsellor they think is best qualified / suited to you and your issues (can anyone confirm / correct this?).

 

no, we didn't have a preliminary assessment... we were put in touch with one... she wasn't great, though... we lasted 4 sessions and then we felt we weren't getting anywhere. So we dropped it. But I think we should have asked for a different one.

 

I'm pleased that finally your wife got the message... shame it had to come from your GP, though...

[silverfish]

no, we didn't have a preliminary assessment... we were put in touch with one... she wasn't great, though... we lasted 4 sessions and then we felt we weren't getting anywhere. So we dropped it. But I think we should have asked for a different one.

 

I'm pleased that finally your wife got the message... shame it had to come from your GP, though...

 

We didn't either. We paid to go privately as Relate charge about the same as private counsellors around here - about £40 an hour (it was 8 yrs ago though), so it might be worth investigating. If you go private, the waiting list isn't normally an issue either. Try and get one experienced in sex therapy, it's physically helpful help as well as mentally. It's also much easier to measure the progress and quite difficult to avoid doing the 'practicals'

[giotto]

We didn't either. We paid to go privately as Relate charge about the same as private counsellors around here - about £40 an hour (it was 8 yrs ago though), so it might be worth investigating. If you go private, the waiting list isn't normally an issue either. Try and get one experienced in sex therapy, it's physically helpful help as well as mentally. It's also much easier to measure the progress and quite difficult to avoid doing the 'practicals'

 

 

Relate "suggests" a fee of £40/hr, but you pay what you can afford. We always paid £40... and I agree with Silverfish... if you go private, you can probably pick a counsellor with sex therapy experience. Our problems were mainly sexual, but our counsellor hardly talked about it!

[Jack & Coke]

any update?

[giotto]

I was thinking that too, since I've seen HV posting somewhere else on this board...

[Honorable_Venerable]

Sorry, I do owe an update - mea culpa, but I'm being closely watched and being caught here would NOT be good.

 

W is a in a total funk about going to Relate (next week is the first go) "But We'll have to talk about our sex life!" was her horrified observation. I pointed out that this is the inevitable consequence of having counselling about a sexual issue, and she wasn't any happier.

 

She tried to buy her way out last week, with a "Why don't we buy some books, read them, and forget relate, I'll really try..." gambit. I told her I thought the books were a great idea - when we got to Relate, it would show we're trying and willing to do what we can. I am not convinced this was what she wanted.

 

Interestingly (or not, but perhaps significantly), she still hasn't attempted to initiate sex...