How I got MY wife into sex

[Honorable_Venerable]

TDP, my point is that once you are spending more time begging for sex, scheming for sex, reading how to books to get more sex than you are actually

having sex ,the relationship is all over but the crying.

 

For all the talk, all the compromises a couple can reach there must remain an element, however small of unbridled passion for sex to be any good. You can reach a point of no return with all this, a point at which no matter what your spouse says or does it's too little too late, the flame of desire has been permanently extinguished.

 

I respectfully submit that there's probably more than one regular poster here who's marriage is basically Dead in the water, they just either can't face that truth or if they have they feel stuck due to kids, finances or the lowered self-image that a sexless marriage brings.

 

So unless it works with no effort, forget it, you're finished? If you have to work at it at all, don't waste your time?

[giotto]

So unless it works with no effort, forget it, you're finished? If you have to work at it at all, don't waste your time?

 

Not necessarily... we did work at it and things have improved, but only after threatening divorce... people might think "what's the point in having sex if she feels obliged", but that's not always the case. I'm seeing a genuine change in my wife, probably also because I have changed. Still, don't know if I will ever recover from this and, at the moment, I'm still inclined to think that I will be leaving in a few years' time...

 

People do not leave and put up with a sexless marriage for many reasons and often takes many years to come to term with it and actually realise you are in one! Things get complicated if you genuinely love your wife and your kids... your family is taken away from you, because, in my case, I could not be part of the family if one member rejected me. It is my fault - as it's hers - that I did not act sooner, but sometimes you are like a rabbit in headlights...

[tnttim]

Not necessarily... we did work at it and things have improved, but only after threatening divorce...

 

 

Why don't you break down the components of a her feelings during this time, when you threaten D. I think within those components are her sexual triggers. You just have to find out which one is it, and recreate it.

 

Like if she has a fear of being alone, then instead of threatening D, you can just become unavailable to her. Then when she wants sex, you cut her off till she takes matters into her own hands, literally. It could be the loss of affection, or attention. It could be that she she wants to make you happy, it could be a 1000 different things. The thing you know for sure is that when you threaten a D, she reacts sexually, but only for a short time. Which means she is getting relief from it after a while, so then figure it out and don't stop til you get her in the habit of wanting sex.

[WalkingOnEggs]

TDP, my point is that once you are spending more time begging for sex, scheming for sex, reading how to books to get more sex than you are actually

having sex ,the relationship is all over but the crying.

 

For all the talk, all the compromises a couple can reach there must remain an element, however small of unbridled passion for sex to be any good. You can reach a point of no return with all this, a point at which no matter what your spouse says or does it's too little too late, the flame of desire has been permanently extinguished.

 

I respectfully submit that there's probably more than one regular poster here who's marriage is basically Dead in the water, they just either can't face that truth or if they have they feel stuck due to kids, finances or the lowered self-image that a sexless marriage brings.

Extremely well put. That is the heart of the matter right there.

[WalkingOnEggs]

Why don't you break down the components of a her feelings during this time, when you threaten D. I think within those components are her sexual triggers. You just have to find out which one is it, and recreate it.

 

Like if she has a fear of being alone, then instead of threatening D, you can just become unavailable to her. Then when she wants sex, you cut her off till she takes matters into her own hands, literally. It could be the loss of affection, or attention. It could be that she she wants to make you happy, it could be a 1000 different things. The thing you know for sure is that when you threaten a D, she reacts sexually, but only for a short time. Which means she is getting relief from it after a while, so then figure it out and don't stop til you get her in the habit of wanting sex.

 

If you enjoy the sex that comes from a wife who is doing it out of fear, then you might also want to try having sex with her while you have a loaded gun in her mouth. Should be just about as much fun for both.

[mem11363]

You seem to fail to grasp the strange but very real connection between dominance, fear (healthy fear), respect and passion.

 

Your wife bullies you relentlessly. And then she feeds you a tiny bit of sex and you go back into puppy dog mode. The night out where she led you on and then suddenly got angry at you because "other women" were staring at you is a prime example. Totally abusive. And completely forgiven without comment because you got laid the next morning.

 

There is a certain amount of aggression in any relationship. You seem to accept her aggression towards you as normal - but think that responding in kind is abusive.

 

You have the mindset of a "beaten spouse".

 

 

If you enjoy the sex that comes from a wife who is doing it out of fear, then you might also want to try having sex with her while you have a loaded gun in her mouth. Should be just about as much fun for both.

[tnttim]

TDP, my point is that once you are spending more time begging for sex, scheming for sex, reading how to books to get more sex than you are actually

having sex ,the relationship is all over but the crying.

 

For all the talk, all the compromises a couple can reach there must remain an element, however small of unbridled passion for sex to be any good. You can reach a point of no return with all this, a point at which no matter what your spouse says or does it's too little too late, the flame of desire has been permanently extinguished.

 

I respectfully submit that there's probably more than one regular poster here who's marriage is basically Dead in the water, they just either can't face that truth or if they have they feel stuck due to kids, finances or the lowered self-image that a sexless marriage brings.

 

Rubbish.

 

It's not too late, it's never too late..............................

[soserious1]

Rubbish.

 

It's not too late, it's never too late..............................

 

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. If my ex had suddenly done a complete turn around and began approaching me, I would have cringed and shrunk away from his touch.

 

I don't want intimacy from somebody I have to beg, trick, scheme or threaten into loving me sexually. Once we reached that point it was unequivocally & totally over, the marriage shattered into a billion pieces along with my heart & literally every ounce of self esteem I had.

[mem11363]

I hope you have found a kind partner and a way to heal.

 

I hope your husband is suffering from severe ED and has contracted herpes 2 from his latest sexual partner.

 

I'm sorry but I must respectfully disagree. If my ex had suddenly done a complete turn around and began approaching me, I would have cringed and shrunk away from his touch.

 

I don't want intimacy from somebody I have to beg, trick, scheme or threaten into loving me sexually. Once we reached that point it was unequivocally & totally over, the marriage shattered into a billion pieces along with my heart & literally every ounce of self esteem I had.

[soserious1]

So unless it works with no effort, forget it, you're finished? If you have to work at it at all, don't waste your time?

 

You have no clue how hard I worked to please my husband, no clue as to all the things I tried to save my marriage. I finally reached the place of no return

after a year spent sleeping on the sofa of my own home and being told that there would never be sex again.

[Honorable_Venerable]

You have no clue how hard I worked to please my husband, no clue as to all the things I tried to save my marriage. I finally reached the place of no return

after a year spent sleeping on the sofa of my own home and being told that there would never be sex again.

No I don't know, and nor do I doubt that you did them. However, I didn't think it was an unreasonable question, more so in the context that things are not anywhere near the stage you describe.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Why don't you break down the components of a her feelings during this time, when you threaten D. I think within those components are her sexual triggers. You just have to find out which one is it, and recreate it.

 

Or they are triggers that tell her to "do what he wants" - if the arguement was over spending money, travelling whatever (i.e. not sex), and she simply aquiesces for a time to keep you onside. It isn't a sexual trigger in the sense of sexually arousing her, it's simply making her comply out of fear / worry.

Like if she has a fear of being alone, then instead of threatening D, you can just become unavailable to her. Then when she wants sex, you cut her off till she takes matters into her own hands, literally. It could be the loss of affection, or attention. It could be that she she wants to make you happy, it could be a 1000 different things. The thing you know for sure is that when you threaten a D, she reacts sexually, but only for a short time. Which means she is getting relief from it after a while, so then figure it out and don't stop til you get her in the habit of wanting sex.

Again, she may NOT be wanting sex - she may be doing it out of fear or seeing it as the lesser of two evils. She's not saying "Wow, I get so horny when he threatens to leave", she's saying "Oh hell, I'd better let him screw me or he'll leave and take half the house with him!". Different thing altogether.

[Honorable_Venerable]

You seem to fail to grasp the strange but very real connection between dominance, fear (healthy fear), respect and passion.

When is fear "healthy", outside of contexts like not grabbing live electrical wires?

 

There is a certain amount of aggression in any relationship. You seem to accept her aggression towards you as normal - but think that responding in kind is abusive.

 

Because it is? Two wrongs don't make a right - if you rob my house, is it "acceptable" for me to do the same to you? Unless you are oh so very careful, fighting fire with fire simply leaves everything in ashes. If in order to "win" you have to take on the worst traits of the other person, and simply "win" by doing more of what they do, do you deserve to "win"?

[mem11363]

HV,

Forget lust. If your W does not have a sincere desire to please you - to make you happy - it is time to rebalance the relationship.

 

You cannot be content much less gratified by a marriage where you are constantly invested in HER happiness and she is not in yours.

 

In a healthy marriage you don't starve your partner of core needs unless you have a compelling reason that you have clearly communicated.

 

Until you change a marital dynamic where your W is very comfortable treating you like a servant, nothing will improve. And the ONLY way to create change with a spouse who openly speaks to you in a way that frankly I wouldn't let ANYONE speak to me - is to create anxiety and fear. This is not directly to create fear - so she spreads her legs. It is to create fear so she actually takes YOU AND YOUR NEEDS seriously. Sadly nothing OTHER than fear will work at this point as you have allowed her to treat you like you are powerless for a long time.

 

Or they are triggers that tell her to "do what he wants" - if the arguement was over spending money, travelling whatever (i.e. not sex), and she simply aquiesces for a time to keep you onside. It isn't a sexual trigger in the sense of sexually arousing her, it's simply making her comply out of fear / worry.

 

Again, she may NOT be wanting sex - she may be doing it out of fear or seeing it as the lesser of two evils. She's not saying "Wow, I get so horny when he threatens to leave", she's saying "Oh hell, I'd better let him screw me or he'll leave and take half the house with him!". Different thing altogether.

[mem11363]

HV,

Do you really operate entirely without fear of consequence? Does your wife? Most of what I do is driven by positive factors: honesty, integrity, love. But under duress when I am tempted to cut corners - go outside the "band" of acceptable behavior - it is fear that backstops all that positive emotional infrastructure.

 

I would NEVER EVER EVER let my wife make the emasculating, grossly disrespectful comments about buyers/sellers markets that yours does to you. So to answer your question - sometimes someone needs to feel fear to help them RESIST THE URGE TO TREAT YOU LIKE THEIR LITTLE BITCH.

 

For a guy with a lot of integrity - where is your self respect man? FCS I hope your kids NEVER EVER see or even SENSE that master / servant dynamic.

 

Actually - I just ran 4 miles - and the thought of someone speaking to me like a servant is punching a large hole through my endorphine induced calm.....

 

 

 

 

When is fear "healthy", outside of contexts like not grabbing live electrical wires?

 

Because it is? Two wrongs don't make a right - if you rob my house, is it "acceptable" for me to do the same to you? Unless you are oh so very careful, fighting fire with fire simply leaves everything in ashes. If in order to "win" you have to take on the worst traits of the other person, and simply "win" by doing more of what they do, do you deserve to "win"?

[mem11363]

HV,

I consider my W to be my equal and treat her as such because I love and respect her. But for the moment - lets make me the bad guy in a scenario and everyone can tell me what they think of this use of "market" logic.

 

First some context: W and I are both 47 and have both maintained ourselves nicely. She was out of the workforce for 18 years during which time I worked a career very aggressively. Which means I can earn about 5 times what she does working full time. In the US the demographics are such that a decent looking 47 year old man who makes a good living has a LOT more choices than a 47 year old woman who makes about the median wage for a college grad.

 

Lets say my W came to me and said "I feel very unloved, whenever anything is bothering me and I try to discuss it with you, you basically ignore me"

 

And lets say my response was "I find those conversations tiresome and you need to have them with someone else." And if she talked about divorce - how about me saying "If you want to try to find my replacement - have at it - the demographics at our age are massively unfavorable to you and very favorable to me. So do what you want - I have no intention of doing what you ask.

 

If that isn't hateful and selfish and just awful I don't know what is. And frankly I see zero difference between THAT posture and what HV is dealing with.

 

None of you know my wife. She is a fiery creature. If I EVER did that - she would say "I'll manage - don't worry about me. Do you want to file, or do you prefer I do it so that paperwork is complete and correct?" She is better at paperwork than I am.

 

 

When is fear "healthy", outside of contexts like not grabbing live electrical wires?

 

Because it is? Two wrongs don't make a right - if you rob my house, is it "acceptable" for me to do the same to you? Unless you are oh so very careful, fighting fire with fire simply leaves everything in ashes. If in order to "win" you have to take on the worst traits of the other person, and simply "win" by doing more of what they do, do you deserve to "win"?

Edited July 1, 2010 by mem11363

[Jack & Coke]

I would NEVER EVER EVER let my wife make the emasculating, grossly disrespectful comments about buyers/sellers markets that yours does to you. So to answer your question - sometimes someone needs to feel fear to help them RESIST THE URGE TO TREAT YOU LIKE THEIR LITTLE BITCH.

 

Can't say it much plainer than that, lol.

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

Do you really operate entirely without fear of consequence? Does your wife? Most of what I do is driven by positive factors: honesty, integrity, love. But under duress when I am tempted to cut corners - go outside the "band" of acceptable behavior - it is fear that backstops all that positive emotional infrastructure.

No, not entirely. I don't supplement my income by extortion, drug dealing or contract killing in part because I don't fancy the consequences - a long stay at Her Majesty's pleasure, but largely I don't do it because its wrong. Oh, don't misunderstand me, if someone twonk on the street offers me violence, I'll cheerfully break their arm.

 

I would NEVER EVER EVER let my wife make the emasculating, grossly disrespectful comments about buyers/sellers markets that yours does to you. So to answer your question - sometimes someone needs to feel fear to help them RESIST THE URGE TO TREAT YOU LIKE THEIR LITTLE BITCH.

 

For a guy with a lot of integrity - where is your self respect man? FCS I hope your kids NEVER EVER see or even SENSE that master / servant dynamic.

 

N, will you take N to be your wife?

[FONT=Arial]Will you love her, comfort her, honour and protect her,[/FONT]

 

[FONT=Arial]and, forsaking all others,

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]be faithful to her as long as you both shall live[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][/FONT]

 

 

[FONT=Arial]

I, [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Italic]N [/FONT][FONT=Arial], take you, [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Italic]N [/FONT][FONT=Arial],[/FONT]

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]and this is my solemn vow.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][/FONT]The above is what I signed up to. Never mind God and whether or not anyone believes He's real, the last line "this is my solemn vow" means I signed up on my on behalf. And I take it seriously. It says "for better, for worse" Where does it say "and instill fear in her to ensure she treats you right"? Where does it say "except where it comes to sex where lying, cheating, two-faced underhanded behaviour trumps anything"?

[FONT=Arial]to be my wife,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]to have and to hold[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]from this day forward;[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]for better, for worse,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]for richer, for poorer,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]in sickness and in health,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]to love and to cherish,[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial]till death us do part;[/FONT]

 

[FONT=Arial]according to God's holy law.

Edited July 1, 2010 by Honorable_Venerable
errors

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV,

I consider my W to be my equal and treat her as such because I love and respect her. But for the moment - lets make me the bad guy in a scenario and everyone can tell me what they think of this use of "market" logic.

 

First some context: W and I are both 47 and have both maintained ourselves nicely. She was out of the workforce for 18 years during which time I worked a career very aggressively. Which means I can earn about 5 times what she does working full time. In the US the demographics are such that a decent looking 47 year old man who makes a good living has a LOT more choices than a 47 year old woman who makes about the median wage for a college grad.

 

Lets say my W came to me and said "I feel very unloved, whenever anything is bothering me and I try to discuss it with you, you basically ignore me"

 

And lets say my response was "I find those conversations tiresome and you need to have them with someone else." And if she talked about divorce - how about me saying "If you want to try to find my replacement - have at it - the demographics at our age are massively unfavorable to you and very favorable to me. So do what you want - I have no intention of doing what you ask.

 

If that isn't hateful and selfish and just awful I don't know what is. And frankly I see zero difference between THAT posture and what HV is dealing with.

 

You may very well be right and the difference is indeed very subtle. But given that I swore to "love her, comfort her, honour and protect her", where is the rationale for turning round and using tactics I'm eminently comfortable with in my work life on her? I am quite used to turning around to a customer and saying I can't deal on price and if he goes elsewhere, he won't get a better deal, so he can like it or lump it, but I haven't sworn any solemn oaths to him:rolleyes:

[giotto]

oh, no, HV, not the oaths! What about your wife's oaths? Does she remember them? You see, you are playing fair, and she is not....

[WalkingOnEggs]

You seem to fail to grasp the strange but very real connection between dominance, fear (healthy fear), respect and passion.

 

Your wife bullies you relentlessly. And then she feeds you a tiny bit of sex and you go back into puppy dog mode. The night out where she led you on and then suddenly got angry at you because "other women" were staring at you is a prime example. Totally abusive. And completely forgiven without comment because you got laid the next morning.

 

There is a certain amount of aggression in any relationship. You seem to accept her aggression towards you as normal - but think that responding in kind is abusive.

 

You have the mindset of a "beaten spouse".

That all may be true, but it doesn't take away from the stark contrast that exists between havng sex with a woman who wants you as much as you want her (passion) and sex that comes from obligation, duty, guilt, or fear.

 

While I'd never have an affair, I can understand why it happens. I'm willing to bet men are starved for alot more than sex. Thay want to know they still have what it takes to get a woman so excited by them that she can't wait to rip their clothes off.

 

If it was just about sex, most would be happy with a hooker and never have an affair.

[mem11363]

HV,

Do you believe your vows require that you allow her to slowly and inexorably suck the life force out of you while you must adhere to the letter of the law?

 

If you do, obviously that is your right. Each of us as to live by our own code of conduct. Personally I have found that the odd paradox of marriage is that many women are overall happier when their mate firmly (and sometimes harshly) responds when the wife is breaching her OWN marital vows.

 

I have heard this referred to as "male fitness testing". I have been on the receiving end of a steady stream of such behavior and have found that a very firm (sometimes humorous) response is rewarded with more loving and often more passionate behavior in the days/weeks that follow.

 

I used to resent these tests - now I simply accept them as an entertaining part of the emotional obstacle course that is part of any marriage. It seems to be some sort of male/female dynamic that I wish my father had explained to me in my youth.

 

 

 

You may very well be right and the difference is indeed very subtle. But given that I swore to "love her, comfort her, honour and protect her", where is the rationale for turning round and using tactics I'm eminently comfortable with in my work life on her? I am quite used to turning around to a customer and saying I can't deal on price and if he goes elsewhere, he won't get a better deal, so he can like it or lump it, but I haven't sworn any solemn oaths to him:rolleyes:

[xxoo]

It's true that the marriage vows don't mention ensuring that you are treated well. But you were an individual deserving basic human respect and kindness before marriage, and you are an individual deserving basic human respect and kindness after marriage. It was your parents' job to instill that value in you before taking any marriage vows.

 

I agree that your wives treat you poorly because they either don't believe you will leave, or don't care if you leave. That, to me, is where the fear comes in. My h and I don't have a fear-based relationship, but there are some things I would never do partially because I fear losing him! I generally have additionalreasons for not doing those things, but, if I didn't, the fear of loss would be enough.

 

That's the fear. It isn't about you becoming mean and scary. It is about you standing up and saying, "This is my limit. This is what treatment I will and will not tolerate. This is where I leave." Mem's point is that assertiveness can, ironically, sometimes genuinely reignite sexual passion. Some women like to take advantage of doormats, but, as a rule, we don't get excited about sex with doormats. Repeat: we don't get excited about sex with doormats.

[giotto]

to me, it sounds like HV's wife doesn't really care if he leaves or not. Having said that, HV needs to assert his authority, right now. We've all taken vows, but that doesn't mean it's right to be treated like crap. So, HV just needs to tell her what the limit is (as you rightly say, xxoo). Then, it will possible to get a clearer picture of the situation.

 

Nobody likes to threaten divorce. I didn't like it and I had to do it twice! Then my wife got the message. She's changed, to a certain extent... is it fear? I doubt it. I don't think there can be fear in a relationship of trust... and, although, we had massive problems, there's never been any fear. I think it's been a combination of the realisation of what she would be missing and selfishness/convenience. Life would be a lot harder for her without me. I do believe that her change is genuine, though...

 

The reason why we are struggling to advise is that we don't really know what kind of relationship HV has with his wife... you see, despite our problems, we've grown together and the bond was still there. We met when we were 22, and we've had 4 children together. That creates a deep and profound bond. Does HV have this kind of "bond" with his wife? Is love still there, to some extent? I only sense frustration, irritation and sadness. I don't remember HV saying a single positive word about his wife...

[mem11363]

Jumbo,

If you read his posts you can tell HV is a standup guy. The ONLY point he was making in his post was that he committed til "death do them part" and so he does not feel he can say "if you do X I will divorce you". His point of comparison was he is fine if a customer says "give me X price or I will go elsewhere".

 

 

This is interesting because this goes back to the issue of "personal integrity." In order to "solve" the problems in your marriage, if that is possible (which it may not be), both your spouse and yourself must first address the issue of personal integrity.

 

What you are saying in the above quotation, if I understand it correctly, is that you behave in a way in your business dealings which lacks personal integrity, as compared to your marital life, simply because you did not make a commitment not to do otherwise with customers.

 

First, let me make it clear that I don't think that even sharp negotiating with customers is necessarily lacking in personal integrity. However you clearly feel that way. The fact that you did not make a specific commitment to NOT negotiate cleverly with your customers, as you feel you did with your spouse, changes nothing at all.

 

Personal integrity is not a matter of entering into a contract promising to not cheat other people, or to not deal sharply with them. (And again I don't necessarily agree with you that you are doing anything wrong with the way you deal with customers--however it is you who has chosen to make that distinction.)

 

This is very critical and I want you to clearly understand what I am trying to say. Which is--you can't live "one way" in your marriage, and "another way" outside of your marriage, and maintain any sense of your own person integrity.

 

There is only one person, yourself. Either you have personal integrity or you don't. If you don't have it in your business transactions, then you don't have it. It's up to you to decide what it is and what it isn't.

 

Perhaps you should actually think about doing business a different way. IOW stop lying/b.s.ing/manipulating your customers, if that's what you're doing, just to close a sale or get a better price. While you didn't make a commitment NOT to b.s./lie to/manipulate your customers, you certainly didn't promise them that you WOULD.

 

Start acting and behaving completely HONESTLY in ALL your life transactions, with EVERYONE. Even in business. Even if you haven't promised "not to."

 

Yes, you may lose some sales. In exchange you start achieving true personal integrity.

 

Once you have true personal integrity, or are at least heading in that direction, it will become much easier for you to resolve your issues with your spouse, one way or another, whether that leads to divorce, or restoration of a true marital relationship.

 

Once your goal becomes achievement of true personal integrity, you will stop making excuses for your wife's behavior, and you will stop making excuses for your tolerance of her abuse of you.

 

Do what is right in all things, not just what is expedient. Once you start doing right by all persons, to the extent any one is able, it will become much easier for you to demand that your wife do right by you.

 

Edit: Let me add that your screenname "honorable venerable" probably provides significant clues as to where your head is at. Why do you want to be perceived in such pompous terms?