How I got MY wife into sex

[silverfish]

She remained monosyllabic all night, and this morning. She hasn't said anything in connection with my plan, but interestingly, she won't make any sort of eye contact with me at all. My appointment is tomorrow morning and I'll take it from there.

 

Your doctor might suggest sex therapy or couples counselling....would she agree if it came from your GP?

 

If you've ever seen 'Master & Commander' remember the old guy with *hold fast* tatooed on his knuckles for the next few days...

[Honorable_Venerable]

Had a long talk last night - too late to post here. We discussed what I am going to tell the doctor today. In outline, it will go like this:

 

The frequency and quality of our sex life is appaling. I don't like it and neither does she. However, she positively forbids me to alter anything to improve it and she refuses to involve herself in the improvement process except to complain.

As a result of the above, although I want regular sex, I find myself not trying, snce the act simply causes arguements and distress to me. Nothing I do is sufficient and my wife refuses to take any initiative to alter this except to complain.

When I try to increase the frequency, she turns me down on the grounds I don't make it good for her (although she won't help).

The lack of sex, and the circumstances around it are frustrating me which is affecting my life in a wider context.

I am not willing to address the problem by seeking sex outside our marriage.

Therefore, if I cannot increase / improve supply, I have to act to reduce my demand for sex, and hence I will ask the dosctor.

 

She was horrified. Absolutely aghast. she is worried what the doctor will think of her, and had I not thought how this will reflect on her. I pointed out that I am doing this as a lst resort, and that doing this doesn't exactly paint a glowing picture of me, but that there seems to be no other way.

She then started asking why I hadn't said anything - I pointed out that I had been, for the entire length of our marriage, but that she had made all the running with refusal and "no saying". She said her mum and her older sister had both told her that once she was married the sex should be "responsible" and a duty on me, and she bought into it.

 

I asked her what she intended to do. She tried to persuade me to cancel my appointment, and "we'd work something out". Further probing by me got this:

Her "I don't know how!" Yes, you did, before we were married. You might have forgotten, but you can relearn.

 

Her "I don't like it!" You seemed to at the time, was that all lies? Her "No, but after we got married I thought I had to change."

 

Her: "This is how I am, I can't change" You changed TO this, surely it's possible to change back? Not as quickly (I confess I got that one in), but over time, with effort and patience on both our parts.

 

"What will you think if I do?" I'll try not to feel bad about what I missed and enjoy what I get.

 

No "make up sex". Neither made the effort - too late, too tired, too much pressure. I suspect when (if?) it happens it will be slow and very tentative. I want to push the envelope, but to let her work at it gradually - at her own pace is fine, provided she works forward.

 

As for what she will do if the doctor suggests counselling - interesting. She is scornful of counselling but treats medical opinion like holy writ. An irresitable force will meet an immovable object, and once of them is going to give. Just hope it goes my way.

Wish me luck - I'll report tonight (hopefully)

[AVR1962]

You nailed this one right on. My husband and I have been together for 21 years and when we were dating he was very attentive but somewhere along the line he started expecting and not just for me to have sex but for me to come to him and when I didn't he was upset, pouting and revengeful. I kept trying to tell him how I felt and by being with him this way I felt used, filthy, like a sperm resepticle. I felt this was all he wanted from me and there was nothing to us. I would tell my husband what happenes outside the bedroom influences what happens in the bedroom but everything I said fell on deaf ears. I have finally given up, stopped going to him 6 months ago, and infact because of the distance between us I told him that he needed to show an interest in ME like he did when we were dating, and not just what he expects of me in the bedroom. It's good to hear some guys actually get it.

[giotto]

HV, 3 things:

 

1) before marriage she did have that kind of sex because she probably thought all couples did that and she was in love and wanted to please you.

 

2) after marriage, and talk with mum + sister, she realises she doesn't actually have to do that (you are in the net, anyway) and she comes to the conclusion that, in fact, she doesn't like sex.

 

3) she doesn't know how to change and she doesn't want to. She only threw a fit because of what the doctor is going to think of her. It will be a miracle if she goes to counselling with you... good luck! I don't really envy you...

[Honorable_Venerable]

HV, 3 things:

 

1) before marriage she did have that kind of sex because she probably thought all couples did that and she was in love and wanted to please you.

 

2) after marriage, and talk with mum + sister, she realises she doesn't actually have to do that (you are in the net, anyway) and she comes to the conclusion that, in fact, she doesn't like sex.

 

3) she doesn't know how to change and she doesn't want to. She only threw a fit because of what the doctor is going to think of her. It will be a miracle if she goes to counselling with you... good luck! I don't really envy you...

Re 2 - I will pursue this further, but I'm unclear how much is "don't have to" and how much is "should not", in that married women shouldn't NEED that - their husbands should provide.

 

Re 3 - you may be right but I'll live in hope - more later.

[vestigalvirgin]

Honorable Venerable,

 

is it possible that at some time in her past (before she met you) your wife may have been a victim of some form of sexual, physical, or psychological abuse?

 

The participation of her mother and her sister as she describes strikes me as very odd and possibly unhealthy.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Honorable Venerable,

 

is it possible that at some time in her past (before she met you) your wife may have been a victim of some form of sexual, physical, or psychological abuse?

 

The participation of her mother and her sister as she describes strikes me as very odd and possibly unhealthy.

I am 99+% convinced the answer is NO re abuse. Simply put, the women in her family can't take a dump without discussing it among themselves, and if one of them quoted Freud about how mature women's sexuality worked, they'd all believe it.

[mem11363]

Who is an authoritative enough figure in her life to UNDO the crazy sexual message given by her mother/sister?

 

I DO think the really good news is that she loves you. She WANTS you to love her. And she sees your sexual shutdown as a type of withdrawal that she finds frightening. For all her tough talk about how she would end the marriage if you did x,y or z, she is very attached to you. And of course that says a lot about you HV.

 

If you can only find a way to get her to really talk to you calmly and rationally.

 

 

I am 99+% convinced the answer is NO re abuse. Simply put, the women in her family can't take a dump without discussing it among themselves, and if one of them quoted Freud about how mature women's sexuality worked, they'd all believe it.

[Honorable_Venerable]

Who is an authoritative enough figure in her life to UNDO the crazy sexual message given by her mother/sister?

 

I DO think the really good news is that she loves you. She WANTS you to love her. And she sees your sexual shutdown as a type of withdrawal that she finds frightening. For all her tough talk about how she would end the marriage if you did x,y or z, she is very attached to you. And of course that says a lot about you HV.

 

If you can only find a way to get her to really talk to you calmly and rationally.

I'm hoping so. She has a healthy respect for the medical community, so maybe if the doctor suggests counselling she'll buy into it.

 

Update:

Went to the doctor, pre plan. Described the situation as I said I would. My doctor is a pretty fortright guy, and I've known him for six or seven years. He told me there is no way on earth he will precribe anything for this in the first instance. He said that a.n. other of the SSRI's might (not would) have the effect, but the other side effects were a risk and there is no clinical need to prescribe anything. Actually this is him all over. If he percieves a clinical need he won't hold back from prescribing, but otherwise forget it. He won't hand out medicines without a well-defined need.

 

He described it as a relationship issue rather than a clinical one, and he wants to see us both. I've told my wife and she looks even sicker than she did. I'll make an appointment for the end of the week if I can, and take it from there.

 

I'm not sure whether this is progress or not, but certainly there is stuff happening.

[silverfish]

I am 99+% convinced the answer is NO re abuse. Simply put, the women in her family can't take a dump without discussing it among themselves, and if one of them quoted Freud about how mature women's sexuality worked, they'd all believe it.

 

I remember from your previous thread that there was a possiblity she would read something on female sexuality and I would highly recommend 'The Second Sex' by Simone de Beauvoir.

 

It may get her thinking about her own sexuality, which is where she needs to start before she can go any further with you in my opinion. It isn't 'filthy' at all - it's actually quite dull in places.

 

It's strange that she's very open to discussing her personal life with her female family members, and she would take the advice of a GP, and yet you believe she would refuse to go to relate or similar...wonder why?

[mem11363]

That the good Dr. tells her the only "medicine" you need is a wife with a healthy (same as she had before marriage) view of sex.

 

I'm hoping so. She has a healthy respect for the medical community, so maybe if the doctor suggests counselling she'll buy into it.

 

Update:

Went to the doctor, pre plan. Described the situation as I said I would. My doctor is a pretty fortright guy, and I've known him for six or seven years. He told me there is no way on earth he will precribe anything for this in the first instance. He said that a.n. other of the SSRI's might (not would) have the effect, but the other side effects were a risk and there is no clinical need to prescribe anything. Actually this is him all over. If he percieves a clinical need he won't hold back from prescribing, but otherwise forget it. He won't hand out medicines without a well-defined need.

 

He described it as a relationship issue rather than a clinical one, and he wants to see us both. I've told my wife and she looks even sicker than she did. I'll make an appointment for the end of the week if I can, and take it from there.

 

I'm not sure whether this is progress or not, but certainly there is stuff happening.

[Honorable_Venerable]

That the good Dr. tells her the only "medicine" you need is a wife with a healthy (same as she had before marriage) view of sex.

Or start to get an understanding of WHY she changed. I'm not expecting a change overnight, or over even a few months, but I can but hope. Maybe what has happened has rattled all the walls enough that if I can kep up some momentum they will start to break before she can reinforce / rebuild them.

[giotto]

HV, not to be a doom merchant, but wait until she decides she doesn't need sex after all and you get depressed... then you will need the ADs... that's what happened to me... I'm not saying it will, but it takes a lot more than what you've described for a woman to "re-learn" her sexuality...

[xxoo]

He described it as a relationship issue rather than a clinical one, and he wants to see us both. I've told my wife and she looks even sicker than she did. I'll make an appointment for the end of the week if I can, and take it from there.

 

I'm not sure whether this is progress or not, but certainly there is stuff happening.

 

Oh, wow! What a great GP Hope this can be a new beginning for you guys!!!

 

Good for you for putting it out there and trying something strong, regardless of the result.

[giotto]

He described it as a relationship issue rather than a clinical one, and he wants to see us both. I've told my wife and she looks even sicker than she did.

 

I've just seen this... to be honest, I don't see how you can fix the problem by shaming your wife like this... you are embarrassing her and this will make thing worse (if possible... )... you need to find a solution by seeing somebody who is indeed a professional figure, but not your GP. I'm also surprised that your GP wants to see you both, since he must be bound to patient's privacy by law and cannot reveal your wife's problems to you, and viceversa...

[mem11363]

G,

Healthy shame is the recognition of bad behavior. It is often the stimulus for positive change. She SHOULD be ashamed. She has been a bad partner and a bad wife. The GP sounds short on psychobabble and long on common sense.

 

As for your comments on patient confidentiality you are completely wrong. The Doc is offering to talk to the wife about her husbands request for meds. The Wife's unusual sexual ideas as to what constitutes proper marital behavior are not a protected by any confidentiality rules as SHE did not disclose anything to the Doc.

 

As for her "condition" it may be primarily the product of some very bad parental advice.

 

 

I've just seen this... to be honest, I don't see how you can fix the problem by shaming your wife like this... you are embarrassing her and this will make thing worse (if possible... )... you need to find a solution by seeing somebody who is indeed a professional figure, but not your GP. I'm also surprised that your GP wants to see you both, since he must be bound to patient's privacy by law and cannot reveal your wife's problems to you, and viceversa...

[giotto]

You can't in the UK and I believe (from what he says) that HV is in the UK...

 

"Doctors are governed by the rules of confidentiality, which are there to help and protect patients. They can't divulge a patient's medical history, even to their closest family members, without permission, no matter how much they might want to."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/support/talking_to_your_doctor/gp_confidentialitypatient.shtml

[mem11363]

And how is the doctor disclosing "her" medical history?

 

 

You can't in the UK and I believe (from what he says) that HV is in the UK...

 

"Doctors are governed by the rules of confidentiality, which are there to help and protect patients. They can't divulge a patient's medical history, even to their closest family members, without permission, no matter how much they might want to."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/support/talking_to_your_doctor/gp_confidentialitypatient.shtml

[Honorable_Venerable]

You can't in the UK and I believe (from what he says) that HV is in the UK...

 

"Doctors are governed by the rules of confidentiality, which are there to help and protect patients. They can't divulge a patient's medical history, even to their closest family members, without permission, no matter how much they might want to."

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/health/support/talking_to_your_doctor/gp_confidentialitypatient.shtml

It can be done. It's done all the time in cases of e.g. infertility.

[Honorable_Venerable]

I've just seen this... to be honest, I don't see how you can fix the problem by shaming your wife like this... you are embarrassing her and this will make thing worse (if possible... )... you need to find a solution by seeing somebody who is indeed a professional figure, but not your GP. I'm also surprised that your GP wants to see you both, since he must be bound to patient's privacy by law and cannot reveal your wife's problems to you, and viceversa...

I'm not shaming her, I'm explaining the reasons for my decisions to her, and explaining to her that I am dealing with a problem the only way I can. The doctor is not mentioning any of her medical history (BTW, see my other post re joint discussion), merely asking her to comment on my medical condition. If I'm shaming her, it's because SHE has something to be ashamed of.

[giotto]

I'm not shaming her, I'm explaining the reasons for my decisions to her, and explaining to her that I am dealing with a problem the only way I can. The doctor is not mentioning any of her medical history (BTW, see my other post re joint discussion), merely asking her to comment on my medical condition. If I'm shaming her, it's because SHE has something to be ashamed of.

 

ok, so he will have to talk in general terms without mentioning any medical history... fine... so, wouldn't then be better to go to a relationships counsellor? Someone with better knowledge of these issues than your GP?

 

About the shaming thing... I know you think you are right to do that, because she should be ashamed of what she is doing to you, but isn't counter-productive to upset your wife this way? I think the GP thing a bit a "below the belt blow"... now that she's realised that you are serious, you don't want to push it too far and compromise everything... but you probably don't care anymore at this stage...

[xxoo]

ok, so he will have to talk in general terms without mentioning any medical history... fine... so, wouldn't then be better to go to a relationships counsellor? Someone with better knowledge of these issues than your GP?

 

The GP can refer them to a counselor. If his wife repects the GP's opinion, that may be necessary for her to agree to a relationship counselor.

 

The GP is just a step--an authority the wife respects. It's a smart step, imo.

 

Also, the GP can share his knowledge about "normal sexuality", and dispel some of the myths the wife has held for so long.

[vestigalvirgin]

OP, your wife's problem with sex probably stems from her relationship with her mother. This is deeply-rooted. The mother seems to dominate your wife and her sister. Your wife was brain washed at an early age that sex is only for luring the man into marriage, after that, no real need for marital sex. This attitude is coming from your wife's mother and might go back for generations in the family.

 

For your wife to finally admit that sex is a part of marriage would require her to emotionally stand up to her mother, whether in reality or inside her own mind. Your wife would have to separate her ego and identity from the suffocating control of her mother.

 

This requires years of psychotherapy for your wife, she is not even to the point of realizing that she needs intensive psychotherapy.

 

My prediction is that if you persuade your wife to go to the meeting with yourself and the GP, he will recommend psychotherapy and/or individual counseling for your wife and perhaps yourself, as well as marital counseling. There is no reason the GP would be asking your wife to come in unless he intended to make a referral to a specialist. Since your GP indicates he will not prescribe medication (the problem is not organic) then the only thing left is that he will prescribe some form of psychotherapy. IOW he has formed the conclusion that your wife is in some fashion mentally ill.

[mem11363]

VV,

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that diagnosis?

 

 

OP, your wife's problem with sex probably stems from her relationship with her mother. This is deeply-rooted. The mother seems to dominate your wife and her sister. Your wife was brain washed at an early age that sex is only for luring the man into marriage, after that, no real need for marital sex. This attitude is coming from your wife's mother and might go back for generations in the family.

 

For your wife to finally admit that sex is a part of marriage would require her to emotionally stand up to her mother, whether in reality or inside her own mind. Your wife would have to separate her ego and identity from the suffocating control of her mother.

 

This requires years of psychotherapy for your wife, she is not even to the point of realizing that she needs intensive psychotherapy.

 

My prediction is that if you persuade your wife to go to the meeting with yourself and the GP, he will recommend psychotherapy and/or individual counseling for your wife and perhaps yourself, as well as marital counseling. There is no reason the GP would be asking your wife to come in unless he intended to make a referral to a specialist. Since your GP indicates he will not prescribe medication (the problem is not organic) then the only thing left is that he will prescribe some form of psychotherapy. IOW he has formed the conclusion that your wife is in some fashion mentally ill.

[vestigalvirgin]

VV,

Are you agreeing or disagreeing with that diagnosis?

 

Maybe "mentally ill" was too strong a choice of words.

 

I believe the situation with the OP's wife involves a dysfunctional relationship between the wife and her family, specifically her mother/OP's mother in law.

 

This is based on what OP said about his wife directly taking her marching orders about marital sex from his mother in law. This is an attitude that was transferred from the mother in law to the wife (and wife's sister).

 

OP's wife knows something is very wrong about her attitude towards marital sex which is why she feels shame about his attempts to address it.

 

Most likely the OP's mother in law is a cold, domineering and controlling person. Also guessing the OP's father in law was either not around or had a very weak personality. Most likely OP's father in law was deprived as well.

 

So I "agree."