How do I use the info I have to get my wife to own up to her A?

[sruben]

Gotcha.

 

It's true. We want what we can't have. The more you beg, whine, cry, plead, the less she wants you, cos she knows she can have you any time she wants. The OTHER guy, OTOH, she has to work for. That makes HIM exciting.

 

Yeah I am def not pleading for her to stay. If she had gtried to lv last yr bef I knew better, I might have done that, but now she is welcome to leave if I don't ask her to first. But dad can't just make mom leave without a solid reason. I am accountable to DD7 for that much!

[carhill]

After 100 posts, how about hiring a PI to get your 'reasons', then hiring a lawyer to execute them? Get 'er done. DD will appreciate the extra attention now that the professionals are handling the details. Good luck

[2sunny]

from my perspective - she just had sex with you this weekend to quiet your suspicions. happens this way all the time.

 

you have spent so much time splitting hairs with your W and her truths, half truths, lying by omissions that you are now left grasping at air.

 

what you intend to prove already shows as your evidence. you aren't really willing to look at what you already understand. our gut tells us way before the hard evidence.

 

if you wait long enough and look hard enough - you will find what you've known for a while now.

 

the time and energy spent is wasted in the meantime. you know - you just aren't willing to admit it to yourself.

 

get honest... with yourself - that's a good place to start.

[sruben]

After 100 posts, how about hiring a PI to get your 'reasons', then hiring a lawyer to execute them? Get 'er done. DD will appreciate the extra attention now that the professionals are handling the details. Good luck

 

PI last year found nothing. Like I said, by the time I realized something was up, it was likely over.

 

I have IC tomorrow and am very interested in what he's got to say, having been there himself (but his xW was pretty obvious about it).

[sruben]

Well, here's where you need to be careful, friend.

 

When you asked your wife what her boundaries were, she didn't answer you. She deflected by saying "what the Bible says".

 

Yes, that definitely occurred to me...and to my pastor, with whom I spoke briefly this morning (mostly to tell him that I had decided to do ic without my W's knowledge or approval).

 

She didn't define her boundaries at all.

 

I know!

 

And she's clearly demonstrated to you that her....'interpretations'....of things can vary greatly from yours.

 

This means you can't be vague. It means you need to be very SPECIFIC in outlining these things with your wife...very, very clear about what is and isn't a violation.

 

I'm working on it, each time we talk. Trying to get more specific and deeper into the topic.

 

It seems to me that you have two major issues here...because she's clearly intentionally mis-interpreting things that you say.

 

Unless she's nuts. Then she really believes what she's saying. A distinct possibility.

 

So one is open, honest communication, right along with the boundaries issue.

 

Here's my suggestion.

 

Get a good marriage counselor. One who's got a good PLAN for you and your wife to focus on rebuilding your marriage, and on rebuilding these problem areas in your relationship.

 

One that won't let your wife 'weasel around' and mince words to avoid dealing with things.

 

I think that's why she doesn't want to go to MC, which I've been trying to get her to since last summer. She did go twice with me last fall before we changed insurance, but really had onlyl one breakthrough. MC told her to consider that, when she hears me say something that hurts her, to believe that I didn't mean to hurt her (and I don't) and that I'm not really a jerk (I try, anyway). That made her reactions to me a little less defensive up until last week ayway, when she "thought we were doing just fine".

 

Make it clear to your wife that things have to get fixed, because you WILL NOT continue in the marriage in the shape it's in right now (assuming you truly feel that way, of course).

 

INSIST on making changes to fix things...or on making changes to end things.

 

Don't be a doormat. Don't let her continue to derail your efforts to do this.

 

Thanks for the encouragement to do this. My first step in that direction is seeing IC tomorrow despite her objections, and I'm doing it to help myself get better...whatever that requires (if I am unfairly accusing/suspecting her, then I need to find out why and fix that, but if I am in denial that she truly had an affair, then I need to deal with that as well...and get her onboard with MC, or move toward D.

 

I am very interested in the insights IC will give me tomorrow!

[2sunny]

MC told her to consider that, when she hears me say something that hurts her, to believe that I didn't mean to hurt her (and I don't) and that I'm not really a jerk (I try, anyway). That made her reactions to me a little less defensive up until last week ayway, when she "thought we were doing just fine".

 

that's back wards! IF you are saying something hurtful - YOU need to own it... especially if she is being honest and points out how hurtful you are being.

 

to pretend that you aren't being hurtful when it sure as heck looks like you are is lying. i would never pretend - i would simply state the obvious... "your words (or actions) are very hurtful." THAT is my truth... what YOU do with it is up to you.

 

stop pretending with each other. tell your W the truth instead of playing ll these useless games. be honest. you might be amazed at the progress your relationship could make if you both stop pretending with each other.

[Darth Vader]

PI last year found nothing. Like I said, by the time I realized something was up, it was likely over.

 

I have IC tomorrow and am very interested in what he's got to say, having been there himself (but his xW was pretty obvious about it).

 

 

Just go, don't tell your wife about it, or she'll start WWIII again!

[sruben]

Don't waste cycles trying to work out the logic of the illogical.

 

You CANNOT succeed.

 

Stop trying to get into her head. She doesn't even understand what's going on in there right now...you're not going to have any more success than she does.

 

Instead, focus on fixing your marriage. Focus on the actions that need to happen there....worry about the why's of it later.

 

Owl, this is good advice, thanks. I spent about 60 hr/wk last summer trying to do that, and it pretty nearly drove ME nuts!

[sruben]

from my perspective - she just had sex with you this weekend to quiet your suspicions. happens this way all the time.

 

you have spent so much time splitting hairs with your W and her truths, half truths, lying by omissions that you are now left grasping at air.

 

what you intend to prove already shows as your evidence. you aren't really willing to look at what you already understand. our gut tells us way before the hard evidence.

 

if you wait long enough and look hard enough - you will find what you've known for a while now.

 

the time and energy spent is wasted in the meantime. you know - you just aren't willing to admit it to yourself.

 

get honest... with yourself - that's a good place to start.

 

Yes, I am hoping that IC will help me to get there. However, you're wrong about what I'm willing to do and you do realize you're playing the mindreader, right?

 

It's not working....try again.

[sruben]

that's back wards! IF you are saying something hurtful - YOU need to own it... especially if she is being honest and points out how hurtful you are being.

 

If she would tell me that something I said hurt, I would do exactly that. She doesn't, though. She just withdraws, assuming I meant the worst. And one thin you have to understand about my wife is that she has a script inside her head which runs on any statement I make about anything that adds, "It's your fault that..." to the beginning, or ", you stupid idiot!" to the end. This is regardless of topic, vocal inflections on my part, or even how careful or careless I might be in saying whatever it is that I said.

 

I really don't know where that self-talk of hers is coming from. One time, just before we met with MC about that, she was giving me some directions on where to pick up DD15 the next morning. Part of her directions included naming an intersection of two streets that I know are parallel and don't meet. All I did was point that out, asking for clarification. She got quiet the rest of the afternoon. When I asked her why, she repeated what I said and added ", you stupid idiot!" to it. I did not say or think that, nor did I even answer her disdainfully. And I still lose!

 

to pretend that you aren't being hurtful when it sure as heck looks like you are is lying. i would never pretend - i would simply state the obvious... "your words (or actions) are very hurtful." THAT is my truth... what YOU do with it is up to you.

 

stop pretending with each other. tell your W the truth instead of playing ll these useless games. be honest. you might be amazed at the progress your relationship could make if you both stop pretending with each other.

 

I agree completely. Now, how do I get her on board? I once saw a letter from H#2 after they'd split up, he was commenting on all the games they were playing with each other. She's quite skilled at it by now... :-(

[sruben]

Just go, don't tell your wife about it, or she'll start WWIII again!

 

I have no intention of telling her, and told both my pastor and the IC office that I don't want her to know right now.

 

I'll probably pay a price for that later, but I need to do this for me at this time...

[Darth Vader]

I have no intention of telling her, and told both my pastor and the IC office that I don't want her to know right now.

 

I'll probably pay a price for that later, but I need to do this for me at this time...

 

 

Ha! Screw the price! You're already paying for it as it is, by not winning any way you turn! I don't know if your wife's a Narccisst(sp) or not, but man! The way you type about her reacting to what you say or do, it has an Abusive connotation to it! Verbal and mental Abuse at that! People don't treat dogs like that, they aren't allow to. Why do you allow her to do it to you, she's walking all over you, and she knows it!

[turnera]

Why would you have to have your wife's permission to see a therapist for yourself, anyway? That makes no sense. Unless she IS abusive and you have been conditioned to not upset her to avoid her wrath. In which case you HAVE to go see a therapist, to learn to get out from under it!

[2sunny]

If she would tell me that something I said hurt, I would do exactly that. She doesn't, though. She just withdraws, assuming I meant the worst. And one thin you have to understand about my wife is that she has a script inside her head which runs on any statement I make about anything that adds, "It's your fault that..." to the beginning, or ", you stupid idiot!" to the end. This is regardless of topic, vocal inflections on my part, or even how careful or careless I might be in saying whatever it is that I said.

 

I really don't know where that self-talk of hers is coming from. One time, just before we met with MC about that, she was giving me some directions on where to pick up DD15 the next morning. Part of her directions included naming an intersection of two streets that I know are parallel and don't meet. All I did was point that out, asking for clarification. She got quiet the rest of the afternoon. When I asked her why, she repeated what I said and added ", you stupid idiot!" to it. I did not say or think that, nor did I even answer her disdainfully. And I still lose!

 

 

 

I agree completely. Now, how do I get her on board? I once saw a letter from H#2 after they'd split up, he was commenting on all the games they were playing with each other. She's quite skilled at it by now... :-(

 

if this is her way of coping - i would venture to say that nothing changes unless you take responsibility for the part you play in it all. once you divorce - it is no longer your problem. you can't change HER - you can only change YOU.

 

use very few words that convey a simple message - leaving no room for interpretation (hers). this usually consists of 1-4 word answers such as:

 

yes

no

maybe

you may be right

thanks for telling me

i'll think about that

let me get back to you

i won't do that

how can i help?

 

it takes away her ability to misinterpret your answer by being perfectly clear.

[Owl]

I have no intention of telling her, and told both my pastor and the IC office that I don't want her to know right now.

 

I'll probably pay a price for that later, but I need to do this for me at this time...

 

This isn't "dealing with things". This is conflict avoidance.

 

Again, you're AFRAID of what your wife is going to do.

 

You're giving her all the power here.

 

You need to stop doing that. See the earlier comments about a woman not being able to be in love with a man that they can't respect.

 

Conflict avoidance does NOT gain respect.

 

Letting her control you does not gain respect.

 

Being afraid of what she's going to do, and avoiding telling her the truth about what you're doing because of that does not gain respect.

 

I've seen this question asked before...

 

"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

 

That's where you need to be right now, my friend.

 

In a nutshell, your fear of losing her is going to cause you to lose her.

 

As counter-intuitive as this sounds, the way to win her back is to stop worrying about what she's going to do...and to "man up" and start INSISTING on what YOU are going to do.

 

Give that some serious thought. I mean it...it's the best advice I can give you at this point.

 

Until you stop being afraid, all of the advice on this forum is going to do you NOTHING.

 

I didn't make any real headway in recovering my marriage until I was finally pushed to the point where I was no longer afraid of a future without her. Until I too "manned up", laid down some very clear understandings of what I would accept and what I wouldn't, and made it painfully obvious that I fully intended to follow through.

 

If I could sum up all of my advice to all the people I've talked to here and on other sights, it would be this.

 

1. Pick a goal. Recovery, or divorce. You can't do both at one time.

2. Don't focus on anything that doesn't work towards obtaining your goal.

3. Do, or do not. Trying is useless. Read that again...do....or do not.

4. Stop being afraid of what the other person is going to do. When you take control, they lose control.

5. If you can't follow steps 2-4 above...pick a new goal.

[turnera]

You left out a big part of that story: The WW got preggers from that affair. The BH chose 2 raise the kid himself. For a time, he was pretty active on the forum where I read this, until some started suspecting that the whole story was fabricated. I have no idea whether it was or not, though.

 

-ol' 2long

*waves*

hey there, 2long!

 

fwiw, whether she was pregnant or not doesn't diminish the VERY powerful and immediate impact his actions had on her. Men need to be strong when they discover a wayward wife. (Ok, unless it is HE who is abusing the marriage to begin with.)

[sruben]

This isn't "dealing with things". This is conflict avoidance.

 

While I do admit that both my wife and I have adopted a pattern of conflict avoidance the last 4 years...

 

Again, you're AFRAID of what your wife is going to do.

 

No, I'm not. I just acknowledged that, because of her reaction the first time when she found out I was going (which I cancelled and later rescheduled), I know that she's going to react badly. I haven't thought out how I'm going to handle it other than telling her that I'm doing this for me.

 

However, note: I AM GOING to IC in spite of her objections (actually, more like BECAUSE of her objections and the obvious emotional manipulation she used on me to get me to cancel). I am not so afraid of what she'll do that I'm not acting.

 

BTW, last summer I was terrified of losing her and DD7. Since that time, I have come to the point where I am less afraid of losing her, but the thought of losing daily time with DD7 makes me very sad! Although I have always let her know that daddy loves her very much, no matter what. She understands and loves her daddy, too! :-)

 

You're giving her all the power here.

 

That point I can't argue with. I need to re-establish that, I know. I'm working on it.

 

You need to stop doing that. See the earlier comments about a woman not being able to be in love with a man that they can't respect.

 

We all make mistakes when we first find out or suspect...

 

Conflict avoidance does NOT gain respect.

 

Letting her control you does not gain respect.

 

Being afraid of what she's going to do, and avoiding telling her the truth about what you're doing because of that does not gain respect.

 

I've seen this question asked before...

 

"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

 

That's where you need to be right now, my friend.

 

All good points...

 

In a nutshell, your fear of losing her is going to cause you to lose her.

 

Well, as she's a divorce veteran, that may be unavoidable at this point, anyway. But I'm going to fight FOR the marriage as much as I can...unless I find out she's been serial cheating.

 

As counter-intuitive as this sounds, the way to win her back is to stop worrying about what she's going to do...and to "man up" and start INSISTING on what YOU are going to do.

 

Give that some serious thought. I mean it...it's the best advice I can give you at this point.

 

Would have been better for me if I'd done this last summer, but I was in too much emotional pain to think clearly!

 

Until you stop being afraid, all of the advice on this forum is going to do you NOTHING.

 

I didn't make any real headway in recovering my marriage until I was finally pushed to the point where I was no longer afraid of a future without her. Until I too "manned up", laid down some very clear understandings of what I would accept and what I wouldn't, and made it painfully obvious that I fully intended to follow through.

 

If I could sum up all of my advice to all the people I've talked to here and on other sights, it would be this.

 

1. Pick a goal. Recovery, or divorce. You can't do both at one time.

2. Don't focus on anything that doesn't work towards obtaining your goal.

3. Do, or do not. Trying is useless. Read that again...do....or do not.

4. Stop being afraid of what the other person is going to do. When you take control, they lose control.

5. If you can't follow steps 2-4 above...pick a new goal.

 

Yep, and as she loses control, she'll definitely come unglued, but I've read elsewhere that that is what has to happen.

 

Funny, in her backpedaling a couple of days after our big fight last June where she screamed at me that I was a control freak, she told me later "No, you're not a control freak, I am!"

 

At least she realizes that...

[Owl]

Fair enough, Sruben. I wish you well. Just consider my signature. Are you DOING...or are you TRYING?

[2sunny]

posted by Owl:

I've seen this question asked before...

 

"What would you do if you weren't afraid?"

 

That's where you need to be right now, my friend.

 

your response:

 

All good points...

 

do you always avoid answering direct questions?

 

you seem to make a habit of saying very little of significance and doing nothing about the issues at hand...

 

is this your way of dealing with life in general? ... because it looks like it here - even on a message board. do or do not. stop talking about nothing and do something.

[Owl]

Why is everyone here convinced that she's cheating? Where is the concrete evidence? If she's a serial divorcee, why isn't it possible that the sneaking around is because she's secretly planning to leave?

 

Obviously in the past she's chosen to bail on the relationship rather than work things out. Why is this marriage any different?

 

Well, regardless of the cheating or not...she's clearly not invested in the marriage.

 

The OP needs to find out for sure why, if possible, so that he can address those issues. Or at least needs to know if her plan IS to bail, so he can protect himself accordingly.

 

As far as the 'concrete proof'...there's NEVER any 'proof'...until there suddenly IS the proof.

 

Not knocking you, my friend...I'm curious what you'd suggest to the OP to do as an action plan from here? Would it be different if he HAD proof of an affair, vs. her prepping to bail on him?

[carhill]

I'm curious what you'd suggest to the OP to do as an action plan from here? Would it be different if he HAD proof of an affair, vs. her prepping to bail on him?

 

 

I suggested, back on Post 50, that the OP get some legal advice and professional counseling and, seeing where the thread went subsequently, saw the health in disconnecting. Good on ya for your patience. I hope, in the intervening week, he has seen that lawyer and counselor. An hour or two can bring a lot of clarity, IME. Given his other thread asking whether a hand job might be considered adultery, I suppose there's still some work ahead. Hope it works out

[turnera]

Yes, work ahead indeed.

 

OP is going off course with this hand-job insanity.

People often do that, when they want to avoid doing what they know they have to do.

[sruben]

posted by Owl:

 

do you always avoid answering direct questions?

 

you seem to make a habit of saying very little of significance and doing nothing about the issues at hand...

 

is this your way of dealing with life in general? ... because it looks like it here - even on a message board. do or do not. stop talking about nothing and do something.

 

Are you reading all of my posts? I am doing something. I started with IC yesterday. I've been TALKING (sometimes fighting) with my wife to deal with these issues. I'm still getting gaslighted on some issues, but I'm trying to forge my way ahead to eventually get her on board with me to deal with these issues, with the goal of setting boundaries that we both agree with...or perhaps if she's not willing, to end the marriage. The latter is not my first choice for reasons I've stated elsewhere.

 

What is it you think I should be doing? Sounds like a number of you think I should just divorce her right now, not work on anything, and just move on...

[sruben]

Fair enough, Sruben. I wish you well. Just consider my signature. Are you DOING...or are you TRYING?

 

Not that I think living my life based upon what a fictional character says (or the screenwriter or author made up), but I do think the principle is worthwhile.

 

If you've read what I've bene doing the last couple of days, what do you think?

[Chrome Barracuda]

So you know she's willingly maniplulating you!!!

 

and yet you dont believe she can do something else worse. dude the signs are evident. One person cant save the marriage alone!!!

 

You need to find out where you guys both stand!!!

 

IS SHE IN OR OUT!!!