Dating someone who was the Long-term OW...

[White Flower]

 

oh please, millions of men out there and your heart is with one married guy? So you are telling us your heart is with a jackass that would cheat on his wife thinking that you would have been something special and that he'd never cheat on you if he found himself divorced?

Well Dex, it took me 25 years to finally give up on my exH and just a handful to begin to give up on my second love. Who knows, maybe there's still hope for me in midlife.

 

And my specialness doesn't come from him knowing it, it comes from me knowing it. It is something he loses and I get to keep. But just because I am special and have ended it with him doesn't mean I'm going to jump the bones of the first guy that comes along. Believe it or not, I'm pretty old-fashioned. Hell, even affairs are old-fashioned and nothing new. It's only new to you because you recently overcame one.

[aerogurl87]

Not every A involves breadcrumbs (or, if there are breadcrumbs, sometimes it's the BW and not the OW getting them).

 

But sometimes, even breadcrumbs from the love of one's life can seem better than a 5 course meal from some dude you don't have the same chemistry with. I'd rather have Ottolenghi breadcrumbs than a 5 course MacDonald's "meal", for example. Quality matters to me rather than quantity. (I was lucky in that I got both.)

 

Breadcrumbs = not having someone completely. And I'm sorry but if your dating a MM whose going home every night to his wife then you don't have him completely. I'm of the mindset I won't settle for being second to anyone else in a relationship or anything. And if a man is married and not actively seeking to be divorced ASAP, then I count that as settling for second best.

 

 

That's a matter of dispute. If you have lived your entire life - decades and decades - and suddenly meet "The One"... you're less likely to think, hey, I only waited, say, 45 years, for this - but, shrug, he's M, so I'll let him pass and wait another 45 years for the next guy who makes my heart fly.

 

"The One" is a myth first of all. There's no such thing as "the one" although there are a few highly compatible matches for every person. But as I said before I'll take years of being single than settling for bread crumbs. This reminds me of the lyrics from a song by Brand New. "Don't feed me scraps from your bed, I won't be the stray coming back just to be fed".

[White Flower]

Breadcrumbs = not having someone completely. And I'm sorry but if your dating a MM whose going home every night to his wife then you don't have him completely. I'm of the mindset I won't settle for being second to anyone else in a relationship or anything. And if a man is married and not actively seeking to be divorced ASAP, then I count that as settling for second best.

 

 

 

 

"The One" is a myth first of all. There's no such thing as "the one" although there are a few highly compatible matches for every person. But as I said before I'll take years of being single than settling for bread crumbs. This reminds me of the lyrics from a song by Brand New. "Don't feed me scraps from your bed, I won't be the stray coming back just to be fed".

aerogurl87 I think you're missing the point. Maybe it is your mindset but we all have different definitions for the same word. I don't feel that I am getting/was getting scraps. I enjoyed the richness of the A AS AN A for many years. Now that the A is no longer fulfillilng I am/was pushing for something full time and won't go back to the less fulfilling. Even though it became less enjoyable, I still wouldn't have called it scraps. Different labels for the same thing I guess.

[jennie-jennie]

"The One" is a myth first of all. There's no such thing as "the one" although there are a few highly compatible matches for every person. But as I said before I'll take years of being single than settling for bread crumbs. This reminds me of the lyrics from a song by Brand New. "Don't feed me scraps from your bed, I won't be the stray coming back just to be fed".

 

It would be interesting to hear your relationship history. How old are you? When were you last single? And for how long? Are you single now?

 

When people who are currently married advice OW to rather be single, it sounds hollow to me. What OWoman said applies to me: I waited 45 years to meet a man as compatible to me as MM, I am not going to wait another 45 years just because he is married.

[OWoman]

Breadcrumbs = not having someone completely.

 

Having someone completely, when they're not the person you'd far rather have, is "breadcrumbs" to me. (In fact, the more you have of them, the scrappier the crumbs, if they're not the one you REALLY want... More definitely is less, in that case!)

 

Not every A is characterised by the MM going home each night to the BW. Several feature the OW and the MM living together for extended periods - albeit without the BW's knowledge / consent - often openly as any other couple. Some MM / OW Rs are second families - with periods without "dad" when he goes to stay with his "other" family; rather like the H going on a business trip.

 

I definitely think, in my A, that the BW had the crumbs, and I got the chocolate souffle....

[aerogurl87]

aerogurl87 I think you're missing the point. Maybe it is your mindset but we all have different definitions for the same word. I don't feel that I am getting/was getting scraps. I enjoyed the richness of the A AS AN A for many years. Now that the A is no longer fulfillilng I am/was pushing for something full time and won't go back to the less fulfilling. Even though it became less enjoyable, I still wouldn't have called it scraps. Different labels for the same thing I guess.

 

Yes, this is what I meant, to me if a relationship isn't full time I consider it as getting breadcrumbs and not being as fufilling. I mean if I gotta miss all the important days with my man cause he has to go home and play house for awhile, I consider that getting scraps.

 

It would be interesting to hear your relationship history. How old are you? When were you last single? And for how long? Are you single now?

 

When people who are currently married advice OW to rather be single, it sounds hollow to me. What OWoman said applies to me: I waited 45 years to meet a man as compatible to me as MM, I am not going to wait another 45 years just because he is married.

 

I'm 20, was happily single for a year right after high school till I met my ex. I missed having companionship, love, passion and all that during that time, but I wasn't willing to settle for less than having someone completely to myself. And no I'm no longer single.

 

Having someone completely, when they're not the person you'd far rather have, is "breadcrumbs" to me. (In fact, the more you have of them, the scrappier the crumbs, if they're not the one you REALLY want... More definitely is less, in that case!)

 

Not every A is characterised by the MM going home each night to the BW. Several feature the OW and the MM living together for extended periods - albeit without the BW's knowledge / consent - often openly as any other couple. Some MM / OW Rs are second families - with periods without "dad" when he goes to stay with his "other" family; rather like the H going on a business trip.

 

I definitely think, in my A, that the BW had the crumbs, and I got the chocolate souffle....

 

I've heard of these where a married man splits his time between two families, and I still consider that to not be complete. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around being ok with having a guy whose legally bound to someone else. If you make a vow to be faithful to your spouse, then you need to keep your word. If you want to find love elsewhere then have the balls to go get a divorce and be upfront with your spouse about it. But sneaking around with someone else is just plain being a coward. At least my ex, who cheated on me numerous times, had the balls to tell me he wanted to see other people when he did so. I'll give him that.

[White Flower]

It would be interesting to hear your relationship history. How old are you? When were you last single? And for how long? Are you single now?

 

When people who are currently married advice OW to rather be single, it sounds hollow to me. What OWoman said applies to me: I waited 45 years to meet a man as compatible to me as MM, I am not going to wait another 45 years just because he is married.

I was wondering her age as well. Pride commeth before the fall. Quantity versus quality, all the usual signs. Not bashing, just saying you sound young.

 

I definitely think, in my A, that the BW had the crumbs, and I got the chocolate souffle....

True in many cases.

[White Flower]

Yes, this is what I meant, to me if a relationship isn't full time I consider it as getting breadcrumbs and not being as fufilling. I mean if I gotta miss all the important days with my man cause he has to go home and play house for awhile, I consider that getting scraps.

 

 

 

I'm 20, was happily single for a year right after high school till I met my ex. I missed having companionship, love, passion and all that during that time, but I wasn't willing to settle for less than having someone completely to myself. And no I'm no longer single.

 

 

 

I've heard of these where a married man splits his time between two families, and I still consider that to not be complete. I guess I just can't wrap my mind around being ok with having a guy whose legally bound to someone else. If you make a vow to be faithful to your spouse, then you need to keep your word. If you want to find love elsewhere then have the balls to go get a divorce and be upfront with your spouse about it. But sneaking around with someone else is just plain being a coward. At least my ex, who cheated on me numerous times, had the balls to tell me he wanted to see other people when he did so. I'll give him that.

And that is the point I have reached. I want him to do all of those things.

 

Glad you're no longer single.

[Lovelybird]

What OWoman said applies to me: I waited 45 years to meet a man as compatible to me as MM, I am not going to wait another 45 years just because he is married.

One thing I am extremely curious. WHAT IF OWoman falls in love with a man, and that man happens to be your husband whom you love dearly, and has been the love your life, jennie-jennie, what are you going to do? You know she isn't going to wait or respect your boundaries, she will get what she wants no matter what. You will defend OWoman and give your husband freely and willingly? Or jennie-jennie fall in love with a man whom White Flower loves to death and the man is WF's husband, will WF defend jennie-jennie and still glorify affairs? I mean in real life, can you trust your girlfriend respect that boundaries? If she puts her own happiness first, will she consider your friendship and your pain?

 

Personally, when I hear successful stories of affairs, it is like seeing a thief robbed a bank, and in one night she became rich. hardly to rejoyce over an unjustice thing.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Lovelybird

[White Flower]

One thing I am extremely curious. WHAT IF OWoman falls in love with a man, and that man happens to be your husband whom you love dearly, and has been the love your life, jennie-jennie, what are you going to do? You know she isn't going to wait or respect your boundaries, she will get what she wants no matter what. You will defend OWoman and give your husband freely and willingly? Or jennie-jennie fall in love with a man whom White Flower loves to death and the man is WF's husband, will WF defend jennie-jennie and still glorify affairs? I mean in real life, can you trust your girlfriend respect that boundaries? If she puts her own happiness first, will she consider your friendship and your pain?

 

Personally, when I hear successful stories of affairs, it is like seeing a thief robbed a bank, and in one night she became rich. hardly to rejoyce over an unjustice thing.

What you are misguided about is that anyone is glorifying an affair! Did I post about one special day in my A? Yes, but I also posted that it was a rare treat for me to do so. Since somebody had my 27 page thread pulled it's not so easily proven here but you can go to Google and check the cache and see for yourself that I stated in my original post that it was a rare treat to share my joy at LS. I had a lot of joy in the A but I kept it to myself mostly.

 

And I will be totally honest here. If OWoman or jennie-jennie fell in love with my H or my H fell in love with one of them I would set him free. I will back that up until the day that I die.

 

If you went to college and told your guidance counselor that you weren't sure what to major in he/she would have told you to study what your natural born talent already seems to be. Your parents may want you to be a doctor or a lawyer but you might be the best artist in the world. Do you know the suicide rate in Japan? I haven't Googled it recently but I remember the suicide rate years ago among children was the highest in the world due to pressure to be something they are not. Well the same is for M. You can't make a M work if the love is not there. Don't make your H be a doctor if his heart isn't into it. Let him be an artist or whatever comes natural. Yeah, he made a mistake and M the wrong person but get over it, let him go. I did. And I still would. I stand by that. If you don't love me please go!

 

I won't glorify an A but I will glorify love, wherever it is.

[Lovelybird]

What you are misguided about is that anyone is glorifying an affair! Did I post about one special day in my A? Yes, but I also posted that it was a rare treat for me to do so. Since somebody had my 27 page thread pulled it's not so easily proven here but you can go to Google and check the cache and see for yourself that I stated in my original post that it was a rare treat to share my joy at LS. I had a lot of joy in the A but I kept it to myself mostly.

 

And I will be totally honest here. If OWoman or jennie-jennie fell in love with my H or my H fell in love with one of them I would set him free. I will back that up until the day that I die.

 

If you went to college and told your guidance counselor that you weren't sure what to major in he/she would have told you to study what your natural born talent already seems to be. Your parents may want you to be a doctor or a lawyer but you might be the best artist in the world. Do you know the suicide rate in Japan? I haven't Googled it recently but I remember the suicide rate years ago among children was the highest in the world due to pressure to be something they are not. Well the same is for M. You can't make a M work if the love is not there. Don't make your H be a doctor if his heart isn't into it. Let him be an artist or whatever comes natural. Yeah, he made a mistake and M the wrong person but get over it, let him go. I did. And I still would. I stand by that. If you don't love me please go!

 

I won't glorify an A but I will glorify love, wherever it is.

Really? What you say about love here is like : when you FEEL the love, then you stay, when you don't FEEL the love, then you go.

 

But what I have heard from many successful loving old couples is that they decided to work on their marriage and themselves, and through that they gained more sweet and deep love rather than superficial ones.

 

so the love you talk about is really about "easy love", or glorify "easy love"

 

when couples meet issues, they have to face themselves, some of them choose to run. and it seems you encourage this kind of arrangement.

 

And you never said affair is wrong, or you feel remorse toward the wife. You never said you are responsible for the hurt the wife feel, so I guess on some degree you glorify affair and proud of it. The "love" you talk about really don't consider the world beyond yourself.

Edited May 15, 2010 by Lovelybird

[White Flower]

Really? What you say about love here is like : when you FEEL the love, then you stay, when you don't FEEL the love, then you go.

 

But what I have heard from many successful loving old couples is that they decided to work on their marriage and themselves, and through that they gained more sweet and deep love rather than superficial ones.

 

so the love you talk about is really about "easy love", or glorify "easy love"

 

when couples meet issues, they have to face themselves, some of them choose to run. and it seems you encourage this kind of arrangement.

 

And you never said affair is wrong, or you feel remorse toward the wife. You never said you are responsible for the hurt the wife feel, so I guess on some degree you glorify affair and proud of it. The "love" you talk about really don't consider the world beyond yourself.

Remorse about the wife? Look at my early posts.

 

You too seem to talk about your world and nothing beyond it. And know this: I will NEVER run from issues, NEVER. You don't know me, you don't know the 25 years I suffered and tried to make it work, you don't know ANYTHING. I don't know what kind of love you have had, nor what kind of marriage you have had but you don't know me at all or what I went through to prove my love and commitment to my spouse. You think what you want but you know nothing.

 

I don't say anyting about what I feel. I KNOW real love when I see it and experience it. Good luck with recognizing your own love. I wish you the best because I am sure you don't know half of what I know about love.

[White Flower]

 

And you never said affair is wrong, or you feel remorse toward the wife. You never said you are responsible for the hurt the wife feel, so I guess on some degree you glorify affair and proud of it. The "love" you talk about really don't consider the world beyond yourself.

Actually, I feel bad that the W feels the need to force the man who doesn't love her to stay with her. If you really, really love someone, you don't force them to stay with you. THAT is love. You should really dwell on that for a while. I would NEVER force a man to stay with me simply because he promised me at a young age to remain in love with me. NEVER.

[jennie-jennie]

One thing I am extremely curious. WHAT IF OWoman falls in love with a man, and that man happens to be your husband whom you love dearly, and has been the love your life, jennie-jennie, what are you going to do? You know she isn't going to wait or respect your boundaries, she will get what she wants no matter what. You will defend OWoman and give your husband freely and willingly? Or jennie-jennie fall in love with a man whom White Flower loves to death and the man is WF's husband, will WF defend jennie-jennie and still glorify affairs? I mean in real life, can you trust your girlfriend respect that boundaries? If she puts her own happiness first, will she consider your friendship and your pain?

 

Personally, when I hear successful stories of affairs, it is like seeing a thief robbed a bank, and in one night she became rich. hardly to rejoyce over an unjustice thing.

 

Interesting question indeed. I have visitors today, but I will be back tomorrow with an answer. I don't want to haste through a reply, but instead give a thoughtful input.

[PhoenixRise]

Actually, I feel bad that the W feels the need to force the man who doesn't love her to stay with her. If you really, really love someone, you don't force them to stay with you. THAT is love. You should really dwell on that for a while. I would NEVER force a man to stay with me simply because he promised me at a young age to remain in love with me. NEVER.

 

WOW

 

Is she forcing him White Flower?

 

Does she know he doesn't love her?

 

Doesn't she think he is working on himself right now to benefit their relationship?

 

Actually White Flower I would bet that she loves him very very much, and if he told her he was in love with someone else, she would be hurt, devastated, perhaps initially would try to work it out, but if he stayed honest with her, would accept that the M is over and let him go. She wouldn't have a choice because she can't really force him to stay.

 

But as for right now, right now she believes her husband loves her and that is exactly what he wants her to believe. Don't blame her if MM hasn't found the balls to tell her any different.

Edited May 15, 2010 by PhoenixRise

[xxoo]

And know this: I will NEVER run from issues, NEVER. You don't know me, you don't know the 25 years I suffered and tried to make it work, you don't know ANYTHING. I don't know what kind of love you have had, nor what kind of marriage you have had but you don't know me at all or what I went through to prove my love and commitment to my spouse. You think what you want but you know nothing.

 

Your MM's BS may share your feelings here. You say she does what you would never do, but she is likely in the stage of what you've posted above.

 

And, she can't force a grown man to say. You say you would never force, but the truth is none of us CAN ever force someone to stay. He is staying because he chooses to do so, even if his choice isn't out of love.

[bittersweet memories]

Actually, I feel bad that the W feels the need to force the man who doesn't love her to stay with her. If you really, really love someone, you don't force them to stay with you. THAT is love. You should really dwell on that for a while. I would NEVER force a man to stay with me simply because he promised me at a young age to remain in love with me. NEVER.

 

Hilarious!! You still believe that crap! He's there because he has no desire to leave and he wants to be there...period!!!

Edited May 15, 2010 by bittersweet memories

[White Flower]

WOW

 

Is she forcing him White Flower?

 

Does she know he doesn't love her?

 

Doesn't she think he is working on himself right now to benefit their relationship?

 

Actually White Flower I would bet that she loves him very very much, and if he told her he was in love with someone else, she would be hurt, devastated, perhaps initially would try to work it out, but if he stayed honest with her, would accept that the M is over and let him go. She wouldn't have a choice because she can't really force him to stay.

 

But as for right now, right now she believes her husband loves her and that is exactly what he wants her to believe. Don't blame her if MM hasn't found the balls to tell her any different.

I wasn't speaking about my MM's W, I was speaking about any W who knows there is trouble, has been told he doesn't love her, and still expects him to stay. I will never understand this kind of woman or person.

 

Now for the specifics in MY story. I'm sure she does love him. I know he does not love her but who knows what the heck he tells her especially with actions. I know she complains that he never says it (that he loves her) and that has been ongoing.

 

He once tried to leave before, years before I came along, and told her he didn't love her. Dramatics ensued and she pulled out the guns (kids) and they all guilted him to stay. This is what he fears will happen again.

Your MM's BS may share your feelings here. You say she does what you would never do, but she is likely in the stage of what you've posted above.

 

And, she can't force a grown man to say. You say you would never force, but the truth is none of us CAN ever force someone to stay. He is staying because he chooses to do so, even if his choice isn't out of love.

At the end of the day you are right. There is an ebb and flow; she 'puts her claws into him' as he puts it and he allows it. There you have it.

Hilarious!! You still believe that crap! He's there because he has no desire to leave and he wants to be there...period!!!

Too funny how you take a general statement of mine and assume it is my story but that's fine. I know what I see and have every reason to believe what I believe. Have a nice day.

[bittersweet memories]

Too funny how you take a general statement of mine and assume it is my story but that's fine. I know what I see and have every reason to believe what I believe. Have a nice day.

 

That was not a general statement and you know it. You have said that same statement before about his wife. I thought you stopped buying his crap but i guess not...Have a nice day as well.

Edited May 15, 2010 by bittersweet memories

[PhoenixRise]

I wasn't speaking about my MM's W, I was speaking about any W who knows there is trouble, has been told he doesn't love her, and still expects him to stay. I will never understand this kind of woman or person.

 

Thank you for clarifying. My apologies for the misunderstanding. since your post quotes someone questioning your lack of remorse for the wife in your situation, I thought you was referring to your own situation in your reply to that poster. I agree that if a man has told you that he doesn't love you, YOU should leave a cloud of dust in your wake as you get the hell away from him.

 

Now for the specifics in MY story. I'm sure she does love him. I know he does not love her but who knows what the heck he tells her especially with actions. I know she complains that he never says it (that he loves her) and that has been ongoing.

 

He once tried to leave before, years before I came along, and told her he didn't love her. Dramatics ensued and she pulled out the guns (kids) and they all guilted him to stay. This is what he fears will happen again.

 

At the end of the day you are right. There is an ebb and flow; she 'puts her claws into him' as he puts it and he allows it. There you have it.

Too funny how you take a general statement of mine and assume it is my story but that's fine. I know what I see and have every reason to believe what I believe. Have a nice day.

 

 

 

I still stand by my statement that a man can not be forced to stay. I think if you really want to leave, you leave. You set up your court ordered visitation and you establish an independent relationship with your children. A much easier thing to do if you are divorcing because the marriage has collapsed than if you divorce because there has been a dday.

Edited May 15, 2010 by PhoenixRise

[jj33]

and I thought about relationships with married men, where it can be all highs (travel, hotels, meals out, great sex) and seldom the monotony of a living together and the everyday minutiae, though on second-thought that can be any relationship.

So what do I know:rolleyes:...

 

Wow you really HAVENT been reading the OW board have you...

 

It may be that way in the movies and some MMs may promise that in the coming attractions but if you read the stories on the boards many of them are more like he came to my house for an hour or so on his way to xyz... and he calls me and texts me whenever he can (be still my heart...)

 

not glamorous, not romantic not even a night out in some cases the weekends away are unusual and the trips are often business trips)

 

In fact most of the stories are heartbreaking and you wouldnt wish that sort of relationship on your worst enemy. Yes the posters are in love or think they are in love but the circumstances of the actual relationships leave a lot to be desired in at least 90% of the cases.

Edited May 16, 2010 by jj33

[Lovelybird]

Actually, I feel bad that the W feels the need to force the man who doesn't love her to stay with her. If you really, really love someone, you don't force them to stay with you. THAT is love. You should really dwell on that for a while. I would NEVER force a man to stay with me simply because he promised me at a young age to remain in love with me. NEVER.

I am not married, and I never forced any men to stay for sure, and no need to do that, I don't believe in forcing anyone to love, nor I want to share a man, especially a married man, if I know he is married, he is out of the picture !

 

Yes, probably I don't live beyond my world, but I will respect other women's boundaries, I know if I don't, the wife will be in pain, and I detest such a man if he makes a move to me.

You know more love than me? ok, then, what is love to you? as your and OWoman's definition of the love, your happiness is way more important than the wife's even she is married the man first, and invested her whole life and have kids with the man. When their marriage is facing a weak moment, you helped the man to flee temporarily instead of facing his own issues.

 

As for the wife forces her man to stay, you are right, she cannot force a man to stay, if the man stays then it is his will.

Edited May 16, 2010 by Lovelybird

[RedDevil66]

Dexter, you are right on the money, but you've been here long enough to realize, no matter how you slice and dice, you cannot break the code of the denial

 

And I would like to point out, it's always the same "birds" that stick together.

 

Dont waste your breath, only their higher power can shock them to their reality one of these days. I know mine did ;-)

[RedDevil66]

Actually, I feel bad that the W feels the need to force the man who doesn't love her to stay with her. If you really, really love someone, you don't force them to stay with you. THAT is love. You should really dwell on that for a while. I would NEVER force a man to stay with me simply because he promised me at a young age to remain in love with me. NEVER.

 

No, love is NOT betraying, Love is not lying, Love is pure

If you really love someone, you act in a loving way, not in a sadistic way

 

Read this book about love, you may learn a thing about real love

 

 

A Return to Love : Reflections on the Principles of a Course in Miracles

[turnstone]

It's not like all OW will spread their legs for anything that shows interest, ya know?

No, but a man may think she will if he knows she's spread them for a MM.

Thank you for your honest post Lovelybird.

 

The thing you seem to focus on an awful lot is covetousness and I'm not sure how often that really exists in affairs. At least not in the heart of women.

 

I'm pretty sure men still chase women for the most part; therefore, most men are covetors whereas women are usually chased and are not neccessarily the covettesses. People can't steal people so to covet is a very old-fashioned label in our society today. I'm sure it happens, but I don't think it is the norm.

I believe there is a large number, if not the majority, of OW who do covert MM simply because they are MM. The only way a relationship can be worth anything for these OW, is when it is at the expense of someone else.

 

What's that quote I hear BS say all the time? You can't choose who you love?

 

Well that quote is true for everyone, not just BS.

 

Dex, you wanted your W to love you and only bed you down right? How am I supposed to just go and bed down some guy just because he is S and I have his attention? If you were that S guy and my heart was with someone else would you want me to just jump in your bed? Maybe that works for men, but not for women. I hope to get over MM soon but you can't blame my heart for still being there.

 

Well, here's one exBS who has never and will never think that, never mind say it. I believe without a doubt that we do exactly chose who we fall in love with. The opposite belief is just more justification for a solely selfish and destructive behaviour.