Views on marriage

[Neutrino]

I read on LS much more often than I post, and when I post I suspect my posts are just as eccentric as myself

 

In many posts here (and also people I know superficially IRL) I notice many times it seems like women try to manipulate (seemingly) unwilling men to marry them...

 

I have no idea why anybody would pursues this type of action. (of course gender designations are only statistical and not general) I have my questions to both sides :

 

1. The "forcing" side : where is the advantage of marriage over a legal contract (especially when a contract can be "custom-made) since both anchor the relationship in state-law ? What satisfaction do you get from knowing you twisted your SO's arm to marry you ?

 

2. The "forced" side : is it that you disagree with the concept of marriage, or just don't want to make such a commitment to your current SO ? and to those who do it anyway - if you really didn't want to - what made you do it anyway ?

 

 

Of course we all see things from our own perspective, and from my perspective, if I had a reason to seriously think my partner saw our relationship as any less than a huge bonus to his life (and it goes both ways of course) - I think I would end the relationship right then and there.

 

So please enlighten some other perspectives, and naturally no offense meant to anyone.

[hats]

Well my views may be eccentric as well, but here they are.

 

I think the man's side looks something like this. Marriage is an unnecessary risk. You can stay together and do just as married couples do but without a binding contract, fancy ceremony, or government involvement. If it turns out that the relationship was a mistake (and apparently many do), marriage will only make things a lot more difficult and costly, especially if you make significantly more than your partner. I'm not sure how true this is but I think that's how most men who do not want to marry think.

 

As a man, my take on the forcing side is that many women just want commitment. The important thing isn't necessarily that the man was willing. Just that he has made the commitment to stay with her. And yeah, maybe if he really wants out then he'll leave anyway, but the fact that he made that commitment means she's done something to reduce the chances of that happening. It's better than not getting married at all. It's nothing to be analyzed deeper, nothing that can really be reasoned against, some women just want commitment in and of itself and that's all there is to it. I think it's probably biological.

 

And that's reason I would get married if I were to marry. Because it would make my SO happy, and significantly unhappy if we didn't. I don't think she really has control over this emotion, I think generally women are just wired to want commitment. I accept that it doesn't really make sense to me and probably never will because I am a man, but why should that make a difference.

[SavannahSmiles]

Well my views may be eccentric as well, but here they are.

 

I think the man's side looks something like this. Marriage is an unnecessary risk. You can stay together and do just as married couples do but without a binding contract, fancy ceremony, or government involvement. If it turns out that the relationship was a mistake (and apparently many do), marriage will only make things a lot more difficult and costly, especially if you make significantly more than your partner. I'm not sure how true this is but I think that's how most men who do not want to marry think.

 

As a man, my take on the forcing side is that many women just want commitment. The important thing isn't necessarily that the man was willing. Just that he has made the commitment to stay with her. And yeah, maybe if he really wants out then he'll leave anyway, but the fact that he made that commitment means she's done something to reduce the chances of that happening. It's better than not getting married at all. It's nothing to be analyzed deeper, nothing that can really be reasoned against, some women just want commitment in and of itself and that's all there is to it. I think it's probably biological.

 

And that's reason I would get married if I were to marry. Because it would make my SO happy, and significantly unhappy if we didn't. I don't think she really has control over this emotion, I think generally women are just wired to want commitment. I accept that it doesn't really make sense to me and probably never will because I am a man, but why should that make a difference.

 

 

Wired to want commitment? I would hope anyone in a relationship would want commitment. You should want to marry someone because you can't see yourself living without this person. That should be a mutual feeling. Otherwise, don't get married.

[hats]

But you don't have to get married to not live without someone. I'm not talking about commitment in the sense of not cheating on each other or anything like that. I mean commitment like making a promise to stay together forever. I think women generally want that assurance. Even if the man's intention is already to stay together forever, most women will still want to get married.

[Neutrino]

Thank you for your responses - I hope this turns into a discussion.

 

As for the commitment : any type of relationship depends on some kind of commitment, whether it is family, friendship or employment... I find this commitment can be addressed in a partner's contract even better than in a wedding - because the contract can be made to express the individual wishes of the couple - so also this type of commitment IMO has nothing to do with marriage (I happily signed a contract with my partner, but I absolutely refuse to get married).

 

Not being able to live without the other : IMO this has nothing to do with marriage, promising something "forever" IMO is very childish and unrealistic - we have no way of knowing what tomorrow brings.

 

Marriages : In the relationship forum there are so many threads starting with "I married the wrong person", "I really don't want to stay in this marriage - please help me alleviate the guilt before I leave", "I was never really in love with my partner".... What were all those people thinking when they made that "forever" promise to one another ?

Edited May 16, 2010 by Neutrino

[hats]

I don't think most women will go for the contract though. It's not just the commitment but also 1. feeling special on a special day and 2. having the commitment be a public declaration in front of friends and family. I think the social pressure aspect of marriage is pretty big, and it generally puts stress on women when their friends and family ask them why they aren't married yet and then every time having to explain why she needed to sign some unromantic contract instead. Myself and many men just don't feel this pressure, but I can at least recognize that my potential future LT SO might feel that way and marry her to make her happy. Also, this is another reason why it doesn't necessarily matter whether the man is pressured into the marriage or not.

 

If forever is unrealistic most people don't want to be realistic.

Edited May 16, 2010 by hats

[pureinheart]

I read on LS much more often than I post, and when I post I suspect my posts are just as eccentric as myself

 

In many posts here (and also people I know superficially IRL) I notice many times it seems like women try to manipulate (seemingly) unwilling men to marry them...

 

I have no idea why anybody would pursues this type of action. (of course gender designations are only statistical and not general) I have my questions to both sides :

 

1. The "forcing" side : where is the advantage of marriage over a legal contract (especially when a contract can be "custom-made) since both anchor the relationship in state-law ? What satisfaction do you get from knowing you twisted your SO's arm to marry you ?

 

2. The "forced" side : is it that you disagree with the concept of marriage, or just don't want to make such a commitment to your current SO ? and to those who do it anyway - if you really didn't want to - what made you do it anyway ?

 

 

Of course we all see things from our own perspective, and from my perspective, if I had a reason to seriously think my partner saw our relationship as any less than a huge bonus to his life (and it goes both ways of course) - I think I would end the relationship right then and there.

 

So please enlighten some other perspectives, and naturally no offense meant to anyone.

 

I never wanted anyone who did not want me...the thing I have a really hard time wrapping my brain around is the fact that both genders, mostly men will gladly sleep with a woman/man, although just can't handle committment. I just don't get that one.

[Neutrino]

I would never commit on any level to someone against my good judgement (so not only how I feel) - my BF's parents were surprised to hear that I can easily list out the reasons why I love him. However from past relationships I noticed on myself that even if I liked a guy, the minute my logic judged him as unworthy (I mean in intellectual terms) my feelings for him would disappear by themselves within hours.

 

I'm committed to my BF now and whether we sign a contract or jump over a broom - makes no difference at all - I find this commitment is in your own mind alone. My refusal to get married is because what marriage symbolizes - it has nothing to do with what I feel for my partner.

 

I get the impression sometimes that some people are so in love with an idea - they no longer even see the person in front of them and are probably just as blind to reality and logic.

 

But how come that people have not learned to re-evaluate ?

[hats]

What's wrong with what it symbolizes?

[i_eat_grits]

getting married should be a sin.

Agreed! I am totally against everything marriage stands for...yet my woman WANTS to get married so here I am. I am actually against everything marriage stands for though I love her-so I want to make her happy. However, yeah So I have a ring on my finger...If I see a woman (or man) I want to get with, I will hook up with him/her no 2nd thoughts so whats the point.

Edited May 18, 2010 by i_eat_grits

[ADF]

I don't think most of the women on LS are trying to force men to marry them. They are trying to get men to give them a straight answer.

 

Let's face it, most men would never commit if they didn't feel like they had to. They want to keep their options forever open. The trouble is, when a man refuses to marry a woman he supposedly loves, he sends her a very clear message: he wants an easy out. No matter how long they are together, no matter how many years of her life the woman invests in the man, he expects to be able to dump her at any time, owe her nothing, and never have to look back. How can that not make women feel insecue and unloved?

 

Remember, men can have children wll into middle age and even beyond. Women can't. If a woman wastes 10, 15, 20 years on a wishy-washy guy who won't commit, she could be throwing away her only chance at having a family. Guys are not under that kind of pressure, so commitment is often less important to them.

[ADF]

Agreed! I am totally against everything marriage stands for...yet my woman WANTS to get married so here I am. I am actually against everything marriage stands for though I love her-so I want to make her happy. However, yeah So I have a ring on my finger...If I see a woman (or man) I want to get with, I will hook up with him/her no 2nd thoughts so whats the point.

 

The point is that, rightly or wrongly, marriage offers significant legal protection to couples. For example, in my state (Illinois), a married couple can take possession of their home under a rule called tenancy in the entirety. What rule says is that if either partner accumulates debt, creditors are forbidden to force the sale of the couple's home to satisfy that debt. They may be broke, but they won't be homeless. That rule ONLY applies to married couples. There are hundreds of protections like that in every state.

[Neutrino]

Thank you all for responding.

 

What marriage symbolizes : yes - mostly it has a religious tint, or some kind of a public permission... I have a mental allergy to religion and I don't feel I need to ask permission of people I never met to live my life a certain (legal) way. I also find a marriage like those "one-size-fits-all" clothes, they never fit anyone and are totally devoid of individualism.

 

Over the years I noticed that guys tend to propose right after you had a huge fight (about something completely different), this is absurd IMO. You have just both had a proof of how incompatible you are with each other, this would be a time to re-evaluate rather than demand a commitment...

 

Women (or men) should not see refusal to marry as a rejection - doesn't the reason WHY play any part here...? I refused to marry, but after I explained myself by BF did not find it such a big deal anymore and was just as happy to sign a contract we set up together addressing our individual wishes exactly.

 

Offspring : the whole concept that women are on some kind of clock to find a suitable partner for breeding is questionable... I know quite a few women (mainly Russians) who had no desire to commit to a man and had a child by themselves (those "kids" are actually people I know, there's nothing wrong with them), at the same time, a man can never have a kid by himself.... he depends on finding a female partner that will agree to have a child with him... So this can go both ways.... (and FYI men also experience a significant drop in sperm quality around their 40s and 50s).

 

This "family / partner contract" is a nice one actually here it exists - my BF and I have one, of course it has to comply with the laws of the state, but you can add a lot of things by yourself, like what happens with inheritances, with mutual and private property, the event that you break up etc... Here it is also possible to have a legal contract of a "family unit" even between people who are not related and are not romantically involved... Like two good friends living together can also have some kind of a contract (this is more done for tax purposes)

 

Tax wise we are better off than married couples as those are automatically taxed as one unit, and we can choose each year whether to be taxed as one unit, or two individuals.

[climbergirl]

Interesting discussion...

 

Have only been dating my bf for a few months, and we recently had a talk about this. Normally I wouldn't have talked about this so soon, but he is pretty eccentric in his views-specifically that he believes in no state issued license of any kind, including marriage.

 

He does believe in marriage, but only in the religious sense and preferably with brides dad officiating the wedding. As far as laws only afforded to 'married' couples, he says that there are ways around that to protect each other.

 

I don't share his views about state licenses, but I am surprisingly ok with continuing our relationship knowing (if it ever comes to it) that we will never be married (legal definition).

[BlackLovely]

I don't think most women will go for the contract though. It's not just the commitment but also 1. feeling special on a special day and 2. having the commitment be a public declaration in front of friends and family. I think the social pressure aspect of marriage is pretty big, and it generally puts stress on women when their friends and family ask them why they aren't married yet and then every time having to explain why she needed to sign some unromantic contract instead. Myself and many men just don't feel this pressure, but I can at least recognize that my potential future LT SO might feel that way and marry her to make her happy. Also, this is another reason why it doesn't necessarily matter whether the man is pressured into the marriage or not.

 

If forever is unrealistic most people don't want to be realistic.

 

I agree that women are fed lavish wedding propaganda their whole lives. I am eloping to save money and keep my overbearing and toxic mother away from us. However, until very recently, I felt sad whenever I heard of brides who are having their big weddings. This sadness came from the notions I was raised with: only a big, splashy, parent planned wedding is acceptable. I decided to just do what would make us happy, not what I was programmed to want. There's a huge difference.

 

Single women past thirty are viewed as spinsters in this society, yet a man can be single for life and be viewed as a happy bachelor. It's just another double standard that the damn patriarchy has constructed. The good news is, like other old fashioned nonsense that is unfair to women, the spinster/bachelor thing is on it's way out.

 

You sound like you're mature enough to realize that relationships involve compromise and commitment. I wish I had met more men like you before I was engaged; it would have gone a long way in making me less bitter because of mostly bad experiences with men.

[torranceshipman]

I read on LS much more often than I post, and when I post I suspect my posts are just as eccentric as myself

 

In many posts here (and also people I know superficially IRL) I notice many times it seems like women try to manipulate (seemingly) unwilling men to marry them...

 

I have no idea why anybody would pursues this type of action. (of course gender designations are only statistical and not general) I have my questions to both sides :

 

1. The "forcing" side : where is the advantage of marriage over a legal contract (especially when a contract can be "custom-made) since both anchor the relationship in state-law ? What satisfaction do you get from knowing you twisted your SO's arm to marry you ?

 

2. The "forced" side : is it that you disagree with the concept of marriage, or just don't want to make such a commitment to your current SO ? and to those who do it anyway - if you really didn't want to - what made you do it anyway ?

 

 

Of course we all see things from our own perspective, and from my perspective, if I had a reason to seriously think my partner saw our relationship as any less than a huge bonus to his life (and it goes both ways of course) - I think I would end the relationship right then and there.

 

So please enlighten some other perspectives, and naturally no offense meant to anyone.

 

I totally agree! I read a lot of cases here where the women seem to be trying to manipulate the man up the aisle. Dare I say it - it seems far more prevalent here in the US than it does in other cultures. I just don't understand why people do it and I think it is one big reason for our terrible D rate. IMO these women are underselling themselves.

Edited June 8, 2010 by torranceshipman

[Eeyore79]

I want to get married. Even if a man offered a permanent commitment and a legal contract similar to marriage, it still wouldn't be enough - I want to get married. I want the social proof of my man standing up in front of everyone and making a public commitment to me, I want to show off my ring and have other women ooh and ahh and say how wonderful my partner is, I want us to be an official couple, I want to call him my husband and have him call me his wife, I want our children to be legitimate. I want everything to be "proper" in the eyes of society; I want everyone to be clear about the status of our relationship.

 

If I say he's my husband, everyone knows what that means. If I say he's my legal partner, it doesn't sound as good and doesn't carry any obvious status, and people are bound to wonder why he doesn't want to marry me - in fact I'd wonder that myself; if he's prepared to make a permanent commitment then why can't he just do it properly and marry me? It would be humiliating for me to have to explain that I'm in a committed relationship but my partner doesn't want to actually marry me; it makes it look like he isn't really committed to me and wants a quick escape route.

 

I wouldn't want to coerce a man into marriage though; if a particular guy doesn't want to marry me, well, there are more fish in the sea! He's supposed to want to marry me and commit to spending the rest of his life with me. If a guy didn't propose marriage within a few years, and didn't seem to want commitment, I'd probably dump him and start looking for a man who does want to commit before I reach my expiry date.

 

I suppose it has something to do with the fact that a man's value increases with age (he gets more wealthy and powerful etc, and is attractive to younger women) while a woman's value decreases (she becomes less attractive and eventually can no longer bear children). I want to snag a decent man and have him commit to me while my value is still high - I want him to commit to staying with me and raising a family, I don't want him to vanish and leave me holding the baby. Marriage is the most secure status I can aspire to; if a man marries me he's obviously committed to staying together and having kids, plus the status of being married is a very clear "Hands off" sign to other women. Apart from anything else, marriage makes me a respectable woman, as opposed to being a slut who is banging some guy out of wedlock and popping out illegitimate children.

[aerogurl87]

I want to get married. For me it's not so much of a fear of my SO leaving me, but I want what marriage symbolizes. A wedding ceremony is basically a declaration to your friends and family that you and your SO are in love and committed to one another. Then a marriage is harder to get out of than just "breaking up" so I figure if a man is really committed to me like he says he is, he should have no problem marrying me. Marriage isn't just a piece of paper to me, it's something sacred and special that you can only have with one person at a time (in my country at least). You can have multiple girlfriends and/or boyfriends, but the title of wife or husband is higher than those and more special to me at least. Also, with my boyfriend and I being in a LDR marriage would be the easiest key (and probably most viable option) to us being able to live together for the long term. So yeah I want to get married.

[Eeyore79]

You can have multiple girlfriends and/or boyfriends, but the title of wife or husband is higher than those and more special to me at least.

 

This. My boyfriend has obviously had other girlfriends before, but he's never had a wife before, so me being his wife would set our relationship apart from all the others (and the same goes for him being my husband). This is one reason why I don't want to marry a divorced guy - my status in his life wouldn't be special or unique if he's had a wife before.

 

Being someone's wife or husband is respectable and official, and commands social status. Plus it's proof that they're willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually commit.

[ADF]

1. The "forcing" side : where is the advantage of marriage over a legal contract (especially when a contract can be "custom-made) since both anchor the relationship in state-law ? What satisfaction do you get from knowing you twisted your SO's arm to marry you ?

 

2. The "forced" side : is it that you disagree with the concept of marriage, or just don't want to make such a commitment to your current SO ? and to those who do it anyway - if you really didn't want to - what made you do it anyway ?

 

Both very good questions.

 

1) The main advantage marriage offers over a co-habitation agreement--i.e. a "custom-made" contract--is that in most jurisdictions, certain rights and privileges are ONLY available to married couples. They cannot be written into a co-habitation argeement. For example, in my state (Illinois), a married couple can take possession of their primary home under a rule called tenancy in the entirety. Under this rule, if either marriage partner accumulates debt, creditors are forbidden from forcing a sale of the home to satisfy that debt. The couple may be broke, but they won't be homeless. This is an extremely significant legal protection, and it is ONLY available to married couples.

On a more personal level, a man who stays with a woman for years but refuses to marry her sends her a very clear message: I want an easy out. No matter how many years they spend togerher, no matter how many years of her life the woman invests in the man, he wants the freedom to walk away at any time, owing her nothing and never having to look back. How can this NOT make a women feel insecure?

 

2) I think we have to put this issue in historical perspective. There was a time when marriage was a man's ticket to full adult personhood. If he wanted to live with a woman, to have a sex life, to be respected by his family and community, he needed to have a wife. Even a man's employer might judge him flakey and irresponsible if he didn't "settle down" by a certain age. These factors created a significant incentive for men to marry.

However, nowadays none of this is true anymore. There is nothing a man might want--love, sex, companionship--that he needs marriage in order to get. Nothing. The incentive for men to marry has all but disappeared. Nowadays, men no longer see marriage as a ticket to adulthood. Nowadays, many men dread marriage. They associate marriage with the end of their youth, the loss of their freedom, and they fear financial ruin in the case of divorce. Frankly, I think many men marry out of fear. They marry because they know the women they love will leave them if they don't.

[aerogurl87]

Being someone's wife or husband is respectable and official, and commands social status. Plus it's proof that they're willing to put their money where their mouth is and actually commit.

 

Agreed. I'm sorry but anyone can claim they want to spend the rest of their life with you, but actions speak louder than words as they say. I've had 3 guys tell me they wanted to be with me for the rest of their lives and of the 3 of them, 2 are currently M.I.A with one occasionally attempting to loop in and out of my life for whatever reason. Marriage isn't just a piece of paper, it's a sign to your partner and the rest of humanity that you mean serious business when you say you want to commit to one person.

[Mary3]

I think men need to be honest with women in the beginning

 

" I don't want to be married until 2019 " . ( Yes , 2019

 

This would save the marriage minded girls from the heartache of imagining wedding day bliss.

 

I knew two women who wanted marriage BADLY .

One guy eventually dumped her for asking and hinting. The other girl FORCED the marriage hand by threatening to leave.

 

Either way , come on . Neither of those men wanted to be married.

 

I do understand you men that don't want marriage. I wish 2 of my friends could have understood what " I don't want to get married " really meant....

[Mr White]

I believe in marriage and want to get married, but I feel that men are shut out of the whole process, before and after - getting married (and for that matter - being married, or getting divorced) is all about the girl, and I don't find that acceptable. So, I will get married, but my gf certainly won't find that to be a fairy tale concept. The money for the wedding will not come out of thin air, and I expect to have a say in the things that matter to me (which does not include the bridesmaid's dresses, but does include the issue of when and on what terms to buy a house).

 

I feel that too many men just hand their lives over after getting married and get the double whammy - they are robbed of their lives, and their wives don't respect them. I intend to be a good husband, which includes rocking the boat when necessary, and being a calm harbor - also when necessary.

[Leia]

Never been big on marriage but that doesn't mean I don't want to get married one fine, sweet, beautiful day.

 

The last thing I would do is force someone to marry me! I wouldn't do that to a man for I know that I wouldn't like it if someone pressures or forces me to get married.

 

I believe that people should really give marriage a good thought before jumping into it. Nowadays, young couples marry for the wrong reasons ~ the last thing I want is to end up like some of my friends and they are only in their middle 20s!

[Mr White]

I want to get married. Even if a man offered a permanent commitment and a legal contract similar to marriage, it still wouldn't be enough - I want to get married. I want the social proof of my man standing up in front of everyone and making a public commitment to me, I want to show off my ring and have other women ooh and ahh and say how wonderful my partner is, I want us to be an official couple, I want to call him my husband and have him call me his wife, I want our children to be legitimate. I want everything to be "proper" in the eyes of society; I want everyone to be clear about the status of our relationship.

 

If I say he's my husband, everyone knows what that means. If I say he's my legal partner, it doesn't sound as good and doesn't carry any obvious status, and people are bound to wonder why he doesn't want to marry me - in fact I'd wonder that myself; if he's prepared to make a permanent commitment then why can't he just do it properly and marry me? It would be humiliating for me to have to explain that I'm in a committed relationship but my partner doesn't want to actually marry me; it makes it look like he isn't really committed to me and wants a quick escape route.

 

I wouldn't want to coerce a man into marriage though; if a particular guy doesn't want to marry me, well, there are more fish in the sea! He's supposed to want to marry me and commit to spending the rest of his life with me. If a guy didn't propose marriage within a few years, and didn't seem to want commitment, I'd probably dump him and start looking for a man who does want to commit before I reach my expiry date.

 

I suppose it has something to do with the fact that a man's value increases with age (he gets more wealthy and powerful etc, and is attractive to younger women) while a woman's value decreases (she becomes less attractive and eventually can no longer bear children). I want to snag a decent man and have him commit to me while my value is still high - I want him to commit to staying with me and raising a family, I don't want him to vanish and leave me holding the baby. Marriage is the most secure status I can aspire to; if a man marries me he's obviously committed to staying together and having kids, plus the status of being married is a very clear "Hands off" sign to other women. Apart from anything else, marriage makes me a respectable woman, as opposed to being a slut who is banging some guy out of wedlock and popping out illegitimate children.

 

 

 

Haha, I appreciate the honesty. I also have no problem with any of the above, as long as the commitment is reciprocated by a sweet, loving, loyal, and affectionate wife. Um, that's the only reason that would make the arrangement worthy:).