HELL: DAY 3; Sticks and STONES

[Samson]

HELL: Day 3 Sticks and Stones

 

The morning greeted me with soft light, birds chirping, and the need to fill out, together, a “Couples Questionnaire” before our session. My first impulse was to run far away.

 

I have come to the conclusion that doing almost everything, much less the volatile document that the questionnaire represented, with my wife leads to unpleasant verbal exchanges. The internal optimist won however, and rather than fleeing I began to answer the first of 19 questions, “What things about your spouse did you most like about them when you met the first time?” Quickly scanning the other questions, it was clear that they were designed to bring the respondent back to a happier, care free time and I decided that the optimist deserved to win.

 

 

But, then there was............. Question #2, simply; “How long ago did you meet your spouse?” Rather than do the subtraction, it was longer than 10 years, I thought, and mentally stumbling instead, blurted out that I really didn’t know, exactly. The tripwire snapped, and I was soon being criticized for another shortcoming: Poor Memory.

 

We struggled on to Question 3, “How have your values changed/remained the same since meeting?” When I mentioned that her values toward being employed outside the home had changed, she went to “DEAFCON 1:” a highly emotional barrage of defensive language began to emerge from her underground silos. Before my own very effective and extremely damaging arsenal could be launched, a mental coup removed the optimist from power. With the optimist’s head in a basket, I withdrew, refusing to participate in the activity that seemed designed to cause marital Armageddon.

 

I related this story to our counselor after we arrived because almost all activities with my wife have lead to the same ending. I've learned that rather than fight a stressful battle in which I end up frothing at the mouth, looking at terrified people who are wondering how I could possibly react thus, I just break contact. Counsellor asked wife what could have set her off.

 

Her first explanation was she was very disappointed in my answer, which lead her to believe that I did not love her, just like 4 YEARS AGO when I did not return from a business trip after she and 2 kids were uninjured (later learned her knee was damaged) in an auto-accident and at the time I urged her to be independent and take care of the situation without me. How, I wondered could anyone remember 4 years ago?

 

How, the counselor wondered could husband make up for this transgression? Wife replied that he could cease and desist expressing in any way, shape or form, my desire that she get a job. Quid pro quo manipulation:

 

Emotional extortion is what I called it and refused to “bargain.”

 

Slowly I’m realizing that her emoting is less a product of being female or being generally shrewish, but more a calculated plan that is triggered whenever her own wants are projected on me, but are rejected for one reason or another. Well, our session ended with the counselor imploring her to forgive and stop the dredging the past to invoke emotional responses intended to change my behavior. It seemed clear, to me that this activity was only damaging to her.

 

This counselling sure is great, eh!

[brashgal]

I'm confused. You don't think that it was a good thing that the counselor implored her to forgive and stop the dredging the past to invoke emotional responses intended to change your behavior? It sounds to me like the counselor recognizes that she does this to try to manipulate you.

 

Do you think that the counsellor isn't doing a good enough job of telling her to cut the crap and move on to more important issues?

[dyermaker]

While I find your accounts entertaining, in a voyeuristic, sardonic way--I am concerned. Do you get anything out of it?

[justlooking]

Originally posted by dyermaker

While I find your accounts entertaining, in a voyeuristic, sardonic way--I am concerned. Do you get anything out of it?

That's a good question. I'm wondering if he even WANTS to get anything out of it. It's kind of hard to tell what he hopes to accomplish other than to point the finger at her.

[Thinkalot]

Well, I have expressed my concern about the tone of your posts before Samson, only to be told by you that it is helpful and cathartic to post on here...and if that is so , then you certainly have my support, and I also thank you for expressing yourself in a witty manner and giving us a chuckle, even it the content IS dark and serious.

 

But like, dyermaker, I also want to ask, is this helping so far? You have shown courage to continue, so do you see a light at the end somewhere? Are you ever able to have a calm conversation with your wife? Does she admit any of her failings when you are with the counsellor? It always takes two.

 

I very much hope things do start to improve, so that the optimist can perhaps regain, and maintain, rule in your head.

[niko1999]

I imagine samsons optimism is there, though he may not believe it is, especially if he is planning on continuing with this and is thus far trudging into it; I imagine that perhaps he is planning on getting something out of it, be it to learn he needs to leave or that it will be ok. No matter what samson, it will be ok:) My best wishes to you, I hope it does work out for the best.

[Arabess]

My Dad used to tell me the reason marriages were DOOMED.....is because:

 

Women go into marriage thinking the man will change.

 

Men go into marriage thinking the woman will remain the same.

 

I've posted this before.....but your 'session' today....reminded me of it.

 

I think it's admirable you are trying to make a "GO" of this marriage by surrendering yourself to counseling.

 

A 'less of a man' would have already walked. YOU GO SAMSON!!!!

[Samson]

I am concerned. Do you get anything out of it?

-Dyer

 

A 'less of a man' would have already walked. YOU GO SAMSON!!!!

- Arabess

 

Dyer's question asked and answered.............AND, let's not forget, I get my own schadenfreud; Like everyone else reading LS posts, I often realize mine are not the innermost circles of hell.

 

It's kind of hard to tell what he hopes to accomplish other than to point the finger at her

I imagine you could see it this way, but I assure you that I've never claimed to be completely innocent of having contributed to the present state of my marriage. I've made serious errors in the past, and have come close to more serious mistakes in the present, only to pull back from the abyss because I value my family.

[dyermaker]

My question was asked, but not answered. I understand that you are a great man for trying to make an effort at it, but I don't consider going with the outlook that "Oh, I can't wait to go to marriage counseling, and then rush home knowing the title will be HELL: DAY X; CLEVER TITLE"

 

To me, that's defeatist, and you're wasting your money.

 

So, cleverness aside, do you feel you are getting something out of it?

[Samson]

My purpose in quoting Arabess was to demonstrate that through my posts I receive positive reinforcement that I would never receive otherwise.

 

Certainly, I'd agree that going to marriage councelling ONLY to be able to report the results on LS forums would be a ridiculous waste of resources. I assure you I have other, much more meaningful goals in mind than a catchy title to a weekly post. You must realize, this whole process is much less than fun, but "for better or worse" my nature is to find humor in almost every situation, e.g. the horrible pun just read.

 

But, seriously, to answer your question isn't really possible: Do I feel I'm getting something out of it? Not much, yet.

 

But if you ask do I feel WE are getting more out of it than doing nothing but letting our marriage decay into an unsalvegable gangrenous festering wound for the next few decades........well, isn't anything better?

 

Amputation?.....sorry, won't work for me: I march or die.

 

Now, aren't you sorry you asked!!

[moimeme]

Presumably, you have discussed the joblessness issue with your wife numerous times. Presumably, she is already well acquainted with your feelings on it, and your opinion of her feelings (apparently, dismissive). You have argued about this, doubtless, on untold quantities of occasions. So can you really say that you did not know that interjecting your witty remark about changing values (which really wasn't about values but a chance to stick in another dig at her) would not provoke the same reaction it always gets? And then you can play the 'poor, browbeaten little me' game when she reacts, predictably, as she has so many times before.

 

Better yet, she is so distraught at having this thrown in her face yet again that she digs around for something to throw back - whereupon both you and the therapist rejoice in telling her SHE should let things go.

 

Doubtless, you will bring it up again another day, particularly as she asked specifically that you not do it again.

 

Frankly, your resentment of her for not pulling her financial weight colours all your interaction with her. Like April, you have totally lost respect for your partner and therefore are neither willing to give that partner a break nor, more importantly, any credence to the validity of your partners' feelings.

 

I predict two divorces before long.

[dyermaker]

I'm totally not sorry I asked, but I don't quite understand it yet--don't try to make me, just keep posting. I look forward to your fifth day of HELL, hopefully you are ascending. Dante said that the hottest fires of HELL are reserved for those who in times of Crisis do nothing, kudos to you for doing something, whether or not you notice the effects personally yet.

 

Have an open mind, but a sarcastic attitude

[Samson]

Dear Presuming........ but Doubtless,

 

Another good thing about posting on LS is the opportunity to absorb different points of view.

 

Ironically,

Samson

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by Samson

Dear Presuming........ but Doubtless,

 

Another good thing about posting on LS is the opportunity to absorb different points of view.

 

Ironically,

Samson

Honestly, I didn't get it. If you'd PM me an explanation of it, I wouldn't feel insulted.

[Thinkalot]

I have to say, Samson, that if you come here partly to absorb other viewpoints, then I think moimeme has raised some interesting points for you to consider and absorb. Do you see any truth in them yourself? Both you and your wife need to play fair, something which is hard to do once resentment builds up. Of course, it's hard for us to be objective based on your posts.

 

I truly wish you well, and hope next week's session is a little more positive. I'm glad you are trying to do something, just stick with an open mind. Good luck to you.

[meanon]

I know of marriages which have recovered from worse that this Samson. If you reach a point in the therapy where you both understand each other's reactions and are able break the pattern, respect may be regained.

 

Slowly I’m realizing that her emoting is less a product of being female or being generally shrewish

 

Sounds like you are on the way to better understanding. Let the optimist in you take heart from this progress.

 

I know people like your wife. My mum has had difficulty sustaining relationship because much of her interaction with loved ones is designed to seek self validation. It may not be calculating - your wife may be so driven by the way she is feeling and lacking in insight into why she behaves as she does that she may not realise she is being unreasonable. Within the last year, at 58, she has finally achieved a degree of emotional maturity that has eluded her for most of her adult life.

 

If there is potential for change, identifying what the bottom line is that makes your wife flip will be critical. To me it seems that she seeks evidence to confirm her view that you no longer love her - so that what may be an innocent question (when did we get together?) immediately becomes emotionally charged as she interprets your answer within the context of what she needs to know (if he loved me he'd remember). The employment thing is a flash button issue for her - your attitude may to her be proof of your lack of love. It may only be possible to tackle it when you have dealt with the fundamentals of your relationship.

 

I absolutely agree there is no point in engaging when she has gone off on one - I like the detonator simile - that's exactly what it's like. There is nothing you can do once those buttons have been pressed. Just retreat to the underground bunker and wait for the storm to pass. This is not a retreat of the optimist - it's pragmatism.

 

Hats off to you Samson - keep at it.

 

P.S. To Thinkalot - have you read Samson's Bail Out thread? I am being presumptious but I think Samson is aware that his current approach is not helping his wife and he is in therapy to seek different approaches (as well as finding out if his wife is capable of change too).

[Samson]

Do you see any truth in them yourself?

 

My main intent in seeing a marriage counselor is to gain truth, not have a referee between my wife's emotions and my own in some Jerryspringeresgue parody.

 

But I see M's point of view now, and I've seen it many, many, many times before: Presume facts that support a doubless conclusion. This is the essence of the inappropriate emotional reaction.

 

The counselor takes a different and very refreshing approach: How about not guessing, not presuming, but actually asking for the motive behind our actions and then formulating an appropriate reaction based on a doubtless conclusion??

 

This is also called adult conversation, when we

finally achieved a degree of emotional maturity

.

[jester]

How, the counselor wondered could husband make up for this transgression? Wife replied that he could cease and desist expressing in any way, shape or form, my desire that she get a job. Quid pro quo manipulation:

 

 

Samson, I view your counseling as analagous to particularly testy and racorous collective bargainibg negotiations, with the counselor as the Mediator.

 

You're management, your wife the bargaining unit and your marriage "contract," ie, the mutual understandings and expectations that form the crux of everyday marital interactions, is what you want renegotiated with your wife's re-entry into the labor market. That's the Collective Bargaining Agreement.

 

I se three possible outcomes:

 

1. A Victory for Management: The marital "Collective Bargaining Agreement" (CBA) is re-written and your wife re-enters the work force.

 

2.A Victory for Labor: The status quo remains, and the CBA is not re-negotiated. Your wife remains a homemaker.

 

3.Compromise: Your wife re-enters the work force part-time, as, for example, a substitue teacher. Or for a limited 2 year period. And you increase your material contributions to home life.

 

 

 

Since you want the status quo changed, you are in a weaker bargaining position. You're ultimate bargaining chip: If there's no CBA renegotiations, you will shut down the factory (ie, marriage), lay-off the workers (leave your wife) and relocate to more business friendly areas (date, again). In short, you can always tell your wife that if she doesn't re-enter the labor market, you just might re-enter the marriage market. I hope it doesn't come to that.

 

The Mediator, if he/she is good, must craft a CBA, which is acceptable to both sides. If no compromise is reached, his/her job becomes even harder. Then, the Mediator must convince the losing side, either Management or Labor, that no one lost because the consumers, the children, are the ultimate beneficiaries of this business' continued operations.

 

Good luck, and I hope your Mediator/Counselor is very, very good.

[Samson]

You're ultimate bargaining chip: If there's no CBA renegotiations, you will shut down the factory (ie, marriage), lay-off the workers (leave your wife) and relocate to more business friendly areas (date, again).

 

Good analogy.........although I must confess that I'm releived you made it and not me......while my hide might be thick, I'm hoping to keep it in good condition...

 

So, I've really my best in responding choice now is to use YOUR analogy and try to dodge the sticks and stones throw in your direction

 

While you've identified my "ultimate bargaining chip," at the moment it seems to be my ONLY chip.

 

Well, amigo, hit the deck!

 

I hear incoming!

[jester]

I like you, Samson. Hang in there, fellow.

[moimeme]

Presume facts that support a doubless conclusion

 

When emotions become invested, as Meanon so eloquently explained, both parties leap to emotion before rationality. I will never believe that humans are capable of being fully rational, because I believe our emotions trump reason. So it becomes less than reasonable to ask people to be rational.

 

Perhaps you, also, interprets her actions within the context of what you need to know (if she loved me she'd get a job and relieve me of this burden)? When both of you fail to get the confirmation you need, you retreat to pain and respond from the anger of self-protection ("s/he doesn't love me (as proved by the failure to do X) so screw him/her and what s/he wants").

 

Once people are in that situation, it's the beginning of the end, particularly if neither person is willing to abandon the defensive position.

[Samson]

Moimeme, your persistant conjecture is most thought provolking and I appreciate reading your posts, particularly when they are so often riddled with contradictions. First, Meanon said that:

 

an innocent question (when did we get together?) immediately becomes emotionally charged as she interprets your answer

 

Meanon is explaining NOT how

both parties leap to emotion before rationality

, but only ONE party "leaps."

 

Second, if it it true that you believe

it becomes less than reasonable to ask people to be rational.

then I've mistaken. Based on much of your posting I thought you believed humans should control their natural emotionally driven erges, and that morality, seated at the helm of cognition, should be our guide against the evils of .......adultery, for example.

 

Thirdly if every time either of us fail to get the confirmation we need, why would we continue to do it a second, third, fourth,...nth time especially if the result is to "retreat to pain and respond from the anger of self-protection." This would seem less than positive reinforcement for the behavior, wouldn't it?

 

Finally, the best for last, you speculate that I "interpret her actions within the context of what need to know (if she loved me she'd get a job and relieve me of this burden)?" I am male, and not within the 15% of the male population that would be most likely to ask this question that would be more commonly considered among 85% of females.

 

My fear is freezing in the dark under a bridge 25 years from now because my wife refused to work and allow us to save present dollars for inflated future costs.

 

My fear is that we'll need to buy another car.

 

My fear is that one of our children, my wife, or myself will need medical care.

 

AND: I'll be damned if I don't begin to sound some alarms around here letting her know about these realities so that her feeling won't be hurt!

 

Now, where's my spatula.......gotta go practice flipping hambergers.

[Kriz]

I've read a lot of Samson's posts. I'm 21. Are you deliberatly scaring the hell out of me?

[Samson]

Be Afraid Kriz^

Be VERY AFRAID

 

But......never let them know it.

[lostforwords]

its funny how people predict or speculates doom from his first counselling session, when hes merely stating a reaction from an action. usually thats how it works doesn it? samson, im glad you take the negative with a grain of salt, to do such shows your intelligence and staying true to yourself. You know how you feel sitting through your sessions, i know how i felt during my first session, and it sure the hell was pretty close to yours. im sorry but i just dont see your first session the way some other posters feel.... but thats because i can relate somewhat.... before the session even begins you get the feel of what the atmosphere is going to be like and expect it. i totally agree with arabess.... you could have walked.... you could have given up and just left the situation but your indicating your willing to try, and just enduring that first session shows that. kudos to you..... you know your gonna hear all sorts of quips and quirks, possibly due to thier lives not being positive or having actually experienced a marriage let alone counselling yet for one.... just drudge along through the muck eventually you hit dry land now and then.... but remembering your doing yourself and your wife a service for your marriage. hang in there big guy