Staying for the kids...

[wheelwright]

Obviously due to the nature of the relationship and the fact that he is still in his marriage where he and his wife are projecting the happy family image to their children and the world (except for those close friends of his who are privy to the knowledge of me), the answer is no. I do not have a reciprocal relationship with his children.

 

The point of staying to maintain the "status quo" for the child would be rather moot if he were to waltz me in and introduce me as his affair partner, would it not?

 

I do however often impart my advice (which he seeks) about how to handle certain situations dealing with his children. I purchase gifts for them for holidays, though they do not know that they are coming from me.

 

I wish that I could be more of a part of his children's lives, as he is with mine, and perhaps in time I will be. But for now, one of his grown children has knowledge of me (and perhaps all of the grown children by way of the children talking among themselves) but his minor child is being shielded from the reality of the situation as it exists in what is thought to be the child's best interest.

 

FA, your situation is not the norm for people on LS who are encountering the 'staying for the kids' line.

 

Your MM is doing so much more for you, and has developed an openness about you in areas of his life in many ways, including being with your kids.

 

My parents divorced, and it would never have been in my mother's mind to stay for us. In fact, her first divorce she left for us and herself (abusive M), second time she divorced solely for herself and spent the next 30 years thinking solely about herself.

 

Looking back, I don't wish she'd stayed for us. I just wish she'd cared about us at all. That's the point really.

 

I can't offer too much comment on the virtue of staying for the kids, as I find it hard to see the values of family commitment this requires. I value love and being true above that family commitment, but see above for possible reasons for this.

 

I do remember being horrified when at 14 yrs old my friend told me her parents were staying together for the kids. It sank a hole in my stomach at that age. The implied weight of responsibility on said kids. The dead M. All my teenage soul said 'yuck'.

 

My xMOM more than implied he was staying for the kids. His family values would have made that possible. But he also may well have rekindled with his W at some point. I hope he has, or once again, yuck.

 

I don't think there is an objective right or wrong about staying for the kids. It comes down to personal values. More than it comes down to what benefits the kids themselves. We can't know the future effects anyway. After all, the kids are not consulted in this, so they are treated as objects not subjects (a very morally dubious stance). I think I am still that teenager who recoils from the idea, but I recognise the world and right or wrong are all bigger than my gut reaction.

 

I think you got hitched up with a guy whose moral compass involves duty more than it involves love. But who has love to give and doesn't want to deny that part of himself.

 

His kids won't suffer too much more than anyone else's, but they will respond in various ways to what they were shown.

 

I hope you don't have too long to wait.

 

Have you had the grandchildren discussion? Does his duty extend to this level?

[Spark1111]

Recently, a new study, survey regarding children and divorce concluded this:

 

It is not whether parents are married or divorced; it is how much ACRIMONY exists in the marriage OR the divorce.

 

Be married OR divorced amicably, the kids should adjust fine.

 

It is the tension between the parents that messes them up for life, not the marriage or the divorce per se.

 

I imagine it is assumed, naturally, that a person engaged in an affair, is often emotionally absent from his/her spouse, which could create tension in the spouse and therefore, cause lifelong problems for the children.

 

Or, a person could be unhappily married, argue often and create tension in the house. Children have osmosis with their parents; they feel what you feel whether you realize it or not.

 

It is never what you say, it is how you act that they pick up on. If you are happy, and happy with each other, that is what they will be.

 

So the greatest gift you can give your children is to be happily married or happily divorced.

 

Anything less than that just messes them up long term.

[Fallen Angel]

WW,

 

Yes, we have discussed the grandchildren. And no, his sense of duty does not entail living the rest of his life in his marriage in order to "raise" grandkids. His children are raising their own children, he does not see that as his responsibility.

 

His youngest is now less than two years away from the age of majority, though I believe graduation follows a bit behind the coming of age.

 

We have not only maintained our relationship over the last 3 years but expanded it to become more fully what we both desire. (The inclusion of him into not only my life but those of my friends, family and children and including me in the lives of his close friends etc.) we still have a long way to go, but our love continues to not only be strong but to deepen.

 

I do not at this time foresee that I will feel the need to end the relationship before his child is grown, however there are no guarantees. I just know that I love him, and he loves me, and I hope that one day we can be a fully integrated and blended unit rather than having to be compartmentalized as we are now. Time will tell...

[NoIDidn't]

The fatal flaw with this logic is that openly cheating on your spouse is abusive and toxic. His wife might not be strong enough to leave right now, or ever, but that doesn't mean the situation isn't slowly destroying her self worth.

 

That said, I am open minded about "arrangements", if that is what is going on. But then, that arrangement would be agreed upon by all parties, and there would be no "affair".

 

I especially agree with the bolded. I've seen these "arrangements" in action. There is NO affair. And things are understood and discreet. No outright disrespect to either of the spouses by someone that keeps a secret lover on the side and flaunts it by being unaccountable for where they are or who they are with for hours and hours on end.

 

I truly believe that the decision to "stay for the kids" is a mutual one, or someone is rationalizing their actions/inaction.

[NoIDidn't]

Raising hand here...me...I'm the kid whose parents stayed together when they should have split-in all honestly, probably before I was born.

 

Dad was a serial cheater and Mom was a 60s housewife who had no income, no help from the state, and parents who weren't able to offer her much in the line of help.

 

My brother and I always felt the strain and tension...eventually I was dumped into the middle of one of his affairs. We told her she should leave...she never did. We had years, as young adults, we hated our father.

 

On the other hand I took my son away from my toxic marriage when he was 3...I allowed full and free access to his dad, who never took it...and I have a well adjusted 22 year old, wonderful young man I call my son.

 

In an affair the kids are cheated on as wel as the BS...my dad cheated on me and my brother...I tell my MM he is cheating on his daughter...not many people agree with me, but they are...my opinion...

 

I agree with your opinion as well. And the "mother" that was cheated on was a "step". All the children were cheated by his cheating. He stole quality time from us as well. That can't be considered good for our well-being.

[NoIDidn't]

Reboot

 

That is the thing. I don't see it a logical. In many case in a divorce where visitation is ordered and exercised, the WS actually spends MORE quality time with the children, not less.

 

I agree, too. I don't see staying married and claiming to have more time with the kids as logical just because its easier.

 

Maybe that is what "logical" means in this instance - easy/easier.

[NoIDidn't]

Hahahaha. Seriously? Are you a man?

 

I know many men who had almost no meaningful relationship with their children after they got divorced. And I know men who did manage to have a something of a meaningful relationship, but it was still not the same. They still spent a lot of time being sad and hurt. Particularly once there was another man in the children's lives, which usually happens. Ex-wives can be pretty vindictive. Children are often used for revenge.

 

To infer that "visitation" is any kind of substitute for living with your child is silly.

 

I never said that visitation is a substitute for living with your child. What I said is ordered and exercised visitation can result in a non custodial parent spending more time with the child. I know this because I have seen it happen on more than one occasion.

 

It could also happen that the non custodial parent makes NO effort to see or spend time with the child, preferring instead to go into the rest of their lives as unencumbered as possible.

 

AND it can also happen as you described with a non custodial parent's losing the relationship with the child and the BS using the child for revenge.

 

No matter what the circumstances of the divorce are, you can't expect anything to be the same.

 

I didn't see Phoenix infer that visitation was a substitute for parenting either. I did see where she said "ordered and exercised".

 

A man that doesn't fight for access to his children is, IMO, not staying for them. He's doing the lazy, easy thing again. They already live with him while he stays, so maybe he'll bump into them in the kitchen or on the way to the bathroom. <shrugs>

 

I've seen this dynamic enough times to know. I've been a part of the "exercised" visitation when I was picked up from my mom and simply dropped on my stepmom while dad was out cheating.

 

I agree that the exercised visitation, in instances where it is not being interfered with by a vindictive ex, often results in MORE quality time with the kids than less. There are a number of posters (that don't usually post in this forum) that can attest to this. The non-custodial parent may have to learn new skills (that they may not have had to have while married) to take care of the kids' needs (especially for pre-teen/teen girls for a dad), but it comes off as worth it, it seems.

[PhoenixRise]

I didn't see Phoenix infer that visitation was a substitute for parenting either. I did see where she said "ordered and exercised".

 

A man that doesn't fight for access to his children is, IMO, not staying for them. He's doing the lazy, easy thing again. They already live with him while he stays, so maybe he'll bump into them in the kitchen or on the way to the bathroom. <shrugs>

 

I've seen this dynamic enough times to know. I've been a part of the "exercised" visitation when I was picked up from my mom and simply dropped on my stepmom while dad was out cheating.

 

I agree that the exercised visitation, in instances where it is not being interfered with by a vindictive ex, often results in MORE quality time with the kids than less. There are a number of posters (that don't usually post in this forum) that can attest to this. The non-custodial parent may have to learn new skills (that they may not have had to have while married) to take care of the kids' needs (especially for pre-teen/teen girls for a dad), but it comes off as worth it, it seems.

 

 

 

NID

 

Thank you. This is exactly what I was trying to say.

[califnan]

I fully realize that this thread is about "staying for the children"

 

But I will still interject that: Although my father and I had a rocky relationship, my mother's affair partners did nothing for me, even though they would try to talk to me ..

 

I did not respect her for having the affairs - and I had no use for the partners..

 

Perhaps your affair came at a time when your children were open to another father image.. but I would not have done well with it - and I think children of "blended families" are merely tolerant people.. Bless them ..

 

Thank God my mother got her act together and she and my father finished their life and marriage as one..

 

After my divorce, had I remarried - I would not have expected my children to uphold my husband in a son/father manner.. They had a biological father..

[candymoon]

Recently, a new study, survey regarding children and divorce concluded this:

 

It is not whether parents are married or divorced; it is how much ACRIMONY exists in the marriage OR the divorce.

 

Be married OR divorced amicably, the kids should adjust fine.

 

It is the tension between the parents that messes them up for life, not the marriage or the divorce per se.

 

I imagine it is assumed, naturally, that a person engaged in an affair, is often emotionally absent from his/her spouse, which could create tension in the spouse and therefore, cause lifelong problems for the children.

 

Or, a person could be unhappily married, argue often and create tension in the house. Children have osmosis with their parents; they feel what you feel whether you realize it or not.

 

It is never what you say, it is how you act that they pick up on. If you are happy, and happy with each other, that is what they will be.

 

So the greatest gift you can give your children is to be happily married or happily divorced.

 

Anything less than that just messes them up long term.

 

Agreed. Like another poster, my parents should have divorced 20 years before they actually did. They got D at ~30 years. I was an adult and was relieved and upset at the same time. They HATED and resented each other. Some people say that parents should divorce when the yelling and arguing is constant, etc... That happened in my house from time to time and the verbal arguments were vicious.

 

But what was really awful? The quiet seething, the resentment so thick it became near hatred in the end. The house was divided. The child who was 'too much' like one parent was ignored, while the other favored. They talked trash about the other parent to us kids. Things were always polarized. We never even sat down and had dinner as a family. Everyone went to their separate corners.

 

They wanted to maintain some sick 50s ideal of a middle class home. And to outsiders, they pulled it of. I cant tell you how many messages I get from people who saw us as perfect from the outside because they were so well able to pull off this sick image for the few hours I had a friend over. Everyone I grew up with is so surprised that this perfect marriage ended after so long. I tell the stories and they are floored!

 

Some days (like today) I want to stay with my H for the children. Then I remember my parentage and think it would be so easy to repeat that foundation of loathing for my children that I grew up with....

 

I know, though, that us kids would have been better off if they had called it quits. That's really the bottom line.

 

There is no one answer to stay or not stay for the kids. If the love is gone and the couple can pull it off and are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe a family should be, then so be it. However, I'm almost certain that those are the people that D when the last kid graduates high school. OTOH, If people need to D and coparent seperately, then so be that too. I am no one to judge.

[NoIDidn't]

There is no one answer to stay or not stay for the kids. If the love is gone and the couple can pull it off and are willing to sacrifice themselves for what they believe a family should be, then so be it. However, I'm almost certain that those are the people that D when the last kid graduates high school. OTOH, If people need to D and coparent seperately, then so be that too. I am no one to judge.

 

I agree. I bolded one part because of a friend whose parents divorced the minute he graduated college. He had no clue that they were only together because of him. They really pulled it off. But they really hurt and deceived him in so doing.

 

There really is no best way to "stay for the children".

[califnan]

CM, I know what you have meant with the quiet seething and resentment.. Yes there was the same sort of anger and arguments in my home from time to time - as a child, between parents.. I too - hid .. But I would not have wanted to put up with another family - for 'blending' either .. ha

[candymoon]

I agree. I bolded one part because of a friend whose parents divorced the minute he graduated college. He had no clue that they were only together because of him. They really pulled it off. But they really hurt and deceived him in so doing.

 

There really is no best way to "stay for the children".

 

Hey No,

 

Yep! exact same here. My dad told me the decree came and that was just as I was making arrangements for my college graduation party AND planning my wedding that was dated 4 months from then. Imagine having to study for finals and chose wedding cake with that weighing on your conscious: They stayed together for ME. Even though it was no surprise, it was a real mind f***.

 

Every time there was a major milestone for us kids, the D word would float around the house though. Middle school graduation? Time for D! High School graduation? Time for D! Oh great, the last one is graduating college AND getting married--we're gonna really do it this time!

[califnan]

I'm sorry from straying from the intention of the thread..

 

Back to the thread where FA has found a thread from a poster who has said that he was staying because of the children .. Apparently said it to LS members - rather than just a MM saying it to the OW.

 

I have no opinion about the validity of a MM's statment about his children .. excepting that these adulterous affairs are wrong.. It affects all.. If individuals would either stay or divorce (and without an outside affair), perhaps there would be greater chance of healing a marriage..

[candymoon]

CM, I know what you have meant with the quiet seething and resentment.. Yes there was the same sort of anger and arguments in my home from time to time - as a child, between parents.. I too - hid .. But I would not have wanted to put up with another family - for 'blending' either .. ha

 

We're all different... I would have jumped at the chance to try blending families and to know my parents were actually LIVING and being happy and not just surviving a losing battle in a sh** relationship just because they thought it wouldnt screw us up. As it turned out, we're probably more screwed than we were if they had moved on and been at least content single or happy with other people.... our parents became extremely abusive to the point child services had to be called several times. I won't give details, but the situation of emotional, physical and verbal abuse was very severe at times.

 

For us, a blended content family might have save a lifetime of pain and thousands of dollars in therapy and recovery.

[califnan]

at .... our parents became extremely abusive to the point child services had to be called several times. I won't give details, but the situation of emotional, physical and verbal abuse was very severe at times.

 

For us, a blended content family might have save a lifetime of pain and thousands of dollars in therapy and recovery.

 

------------------

 

I'm sorry that you and your siblings had to be personally affected to that degree, Candy ..

[ppj]

Okay, so I went to the Infidelity board to read a thread tonight that was referenced in a thread here on OW/OM. (I do not often visit there but I was curious about the thread *shrug*)

 

I must say I am somewhat shocked by what I read there.

 

It seems the OP was conflicted about the position he was in after having found himself in an affair.

 

Several times on the thread he said he no longer felt as though he loved his wife. Numerous times he stated that he did not think he was capapble of "rekindling" the marriage, and did not think he wanted to. Numerous times he admitted that his main motivation for even considering an attempt at reconciliation was for his "oldest son" (I assume he means all of his children but for some reason the oldest son seems to have particular pull for him).

 

Many posters told him that he "owed it" to his children to stay in the marriage.

 

I was flabbergasted!

 

Is it not LS rhetortic that MM NEVER stay for the children? Is it not considered by the majority of LS posters that any MM who says that they are staying because they believe it is in the best interests of the children is lying and simply "stringing along" his OW?

 

It has certainly been told to me numerous times that My Sweetheart is using his child as "an excuse". So now I am confused!!

 

I mean, here is this MM who appears to be posting totally honest emotions and gutwrenchingly real internal conflicts and he is saying he is staying for his chil/children. And here are dozens of LS posters cheering him on and telling him that he owes it to the children to stay. (There were a handful pointing out that staying for the children is often more harmful than helpfull.)

 

So I am curious, which is it?

 

Do they sometimes stay simply for the children and becxause that is what they percieve to be in the best interests of the children? or is it all a big fat ball of cow poopie as is so often stated here??

 

**I already know where I stand, and I am sure that most of you know where I stand as well, but I have to admit extreme curiosity since so many of the people who have told me that My Sweetheart is "making excuses" were the same ones that were in that thread urging the OP(MM) to stay in his marriage for the sake of his children. (and while I have not finished the whole thread *it was a LONG one* they seem to have convinced him to stay in "the best interests of the child/children".)

 

***this is my first time posting so I guess I will. Maybe I am a romantic but I don't think any one is doing anyone a favor by staying in a marraige simply for the kids. Although we don't want our children to hurt and it's our jobs as parents to offer the greatest security possible. By staying in a marraige only for the kids there is a potential for more misery. First the children learn that this is what a marraige looks like. Cold shoulders, argumnets, fights barely speaking and really continuing the potential for each party to continue to seek the affection people need elsewhere. Secondly, what would it be like to be the partner who knew you only stayed for the kids; regardless of whether it is said or not, the message is quite clear. "I am going to stay in a loveless marraige, I really don't like you and no you can't go find the love you want need and crave elsewhere" I think it is more selfish of the person to hold the partner they don't love back from recieving what they need. Ultimately, if they seperate both partners open up the potential to be happier. They can show their children what a great marraige can look like between two people who love and respect eachother. I dont recommend making a bad choice in a mate be a worse choice by staying just for the children; Now if two people can find affection and love and rekindle what they had then Yes, give it a shot but if one cant and the other won't then know when to free someone (it's only selfish otherwise) and teaches and offers nothing.

[BB07]

I hate talking about this but others have mentioned similar circumstances regarding their childhood, so here I go.

 

I had a great childhood until I was around 9, it was then that my parents starting having problems. I did not know what the problem was until a couple of years later. My dad was having an affair. The next few years were filled with a lot of fights between them, a lot of going back and forth, my dad leaving then coming back, leaving then coming back. This continued on until I left at the age of 17. My mother is a sweet, kind woman and did the best she could at the time, but........the back and forth, the upheaval, the fussing and fights that escalated into abuse of her and myself were hell on earth and I can't tell you how many times I have wished that she had put her foot down and did what ever it was that she needed to do in order to put a stop to it and kick his azz to the curb. My life and my siblings would have been a lot easier and a lot more peaceful and I think that I would have carried a lot fewer scars. My life was hell....from the age of 9 until 17 and it was both of my parents fault.

 

So.........IMO, staying in a bad marriage for the kids, no matter the reasons that's it's bad......is a lot more damaging to children, than a peaceful home reasonably free of conflicts.

[califnan]

I hate talking about this but others have mentioned similar circumstances regarding their childhood, so here I go.

 

I had a great childhood until I was around 9, it was then that my parents starting having problems. I did not know what the problem was until a couple of years later. My dad was having an affair. The next few years were filled with a lot of fights between them, a lot of going back and forth, my dad leaving then coming back, leaving then coming back. This continued on until I left at the age of 17. My mother is a sweet, kind woman and did the best she could at the time, but........the back and forth, the upheaval, the fussing and fights that escalated into abuse of her and myself were hell on earth and I can't tell you how many times I have wished that she had put her foot down and did what ever it was that she needed to do in order to put a stop to it and kick his azz to the curb. My life and my siblings would have been a lot easier and a lot more peaceful and I think that I would have carried a lot fewer scars. My life was hell....from the age of 9 until 17 and it was both of my parents fault.

 

So.........IMO, staying in a bad marriage for the kids, no matter the reasons that's it's bad......is a lot more damaging to children, than a peaceful home reasonably free of conflicts.

 

----------------

 

Who is to say the marriage was bad before you were 9.

 

Which comes first the chicken or the egg. Which comes first a 'bad marriage' .. or an affair..

[BB07]

----------------

 

Who is to say the marriage was bad before you were 9.

 

Which comes first the chicken or the egg. Which comes first a 'bad marriage' .. or an affair..

 

Well I don't think it was bad...... I have good memories of that time before age 9. I tend to go with the school of thought that......an affair happens because there are problems within the marriage or there are issues within the person who cheats such as the case of a serial cheater.....which is what my dad ended up being. I think he was able to behave himself for the early years of their marriage.

[califnan]

Well I don't think it was bad...... I have good memories of that time before age 9. I tend to go with the school of thought that......an affair happens because there are problems within the marriage or there are issues within the person who cheats such as the case of a serial cheater.....which is what my dad ended up being. I think he was able to behave himself for the early years of their marriage.

 

------------------

 

As a single woman who was approached by a MM .. Looking back at it I can say that my life was not empty or searching before he contacted me .. I was made to feel while we were communicative - that I had been missing out on something ... But that is a trick of the devil, if the individual is obviously not the right one.

[candymoon]

I hate talking about this but others have mentioned similar circumstances regarding their childhood, so here I go.

 

I had a great childhood until I was around 9, it was then that my parents starting having problems.

 

Sorry you had such problems too BB07. I say things started going downhill for my parents when I was about 12. They were on shaky ground, though, from as far back as my memory goes (about age 4). But at 12 is when things really hit the fan. Several deaths in the family led to the loss of their support system and they had no one to rely on but themselves. They had no friends or family left. So what was missing in the relationship really came to light then as they had no way of coping with their negativity other than focusing it on the kids or each other.

 

I am sure my dad had multiple As. Actually, I suspected he also saw hookers to get his needs met. Too many late nights at work, where he never called. And she was always disappointed when he came home and verbalized her disappointment as soon as his car came up the drive.

 

Staying together for the kids can be bad medicine... I think sometimes it's too much of a sacrifice and the essence of truly LIVING and LOVING is lost and it leaves a hole in the children of never having this valuable lesson learned. Of course, I say this as I contemplate the same...

[pureinheart]

Hi FA,

 

Just want to throw this in, and I doubt it will go over very well, although this is how I was raised:

 

I was my mothers pride and joy, later on in life my mother and I had our issues, but I understand now that it is because she wanted the best for me.

 

First off, no family is perfect...there are just various families that give "dysfunction" a new meaning.

 

My mother and dad were D'ed and they both did the best they could...like said before, no family is perfect...I went to the best schools, all of the classes like dance, singing, modeling, piano lessons, etc., let us just say, if I wanted it bad enough my mom and dad saw to it that it happened.

 

One major rule..now keep in mind ALL of MY needs were seen to first (which is what I think you do with your kids FA) although I was raised to mind my own business...their business was theirs and that was it.

 

This of course crossed over into adult life which saved my life many times.

 

IMO the mistake exDM and his exW made was letting their kids up in their business all the time. I think kids by nature are nosey because they are allowed to be.

 

You are NEVER going to do EVERYTHING right...my parents didn't, I haven't...but guess what..IT'S OKAY!!!!!!!!

 

I just want to tell you, you are doing a great job!!!! Thank you for not being perfect...and share THAT with your kids! Kids are about love, not perfect.

[scatterd]

Marriage is suppose to be for life That concept is going down drain.This world is getting to the point nobody cares who's married to who. what they want is what they do no matter who it hurts.If a person decides to work it out for their children more power to them and if they can do honest and with out hurting the kids fine.Some people decide their children is worth more then their happiness or the OP.who knows and who are we to stop them.I keep trying to keep my marriage together I want my grandchildren to have Grandparents like I did they are attached to my husband and if we devoice it wont be the same.After this I even want to try harder I cringe at the thought of their little hearts breaking. My children and grandchildren mean more to me then myself.wow Im being am emotional good night guys.

[candymoon]

Marriage is suppose to be for life That concept is going down drain.This world is getting to the point nobody cares who's married to who. what they want is what they do no matter who it hurts.If a person decides to work it out for their children more power to them and if they can do honest and with out hurting the kids fine.Some people decide their children is worth more then their happiness or the OP.who knows and who are we to stop them.I keep trying to keep my marriage together I want my grandchildren to have Grandparents like I did they are attached to my husband and if we devoice it wont be the same.After this I even want to try harder I cringe at the thought of their little hearts breaking. My children and grandchildren mean more to me then myself.wow Im being am emotional good night guys.

 

Sorry this is upsetting to you. I'm learning in my M and as a BS that what I want, dream and hope for are not always the same as what IS and doesn't always jibe with logic or what society/religion/politics tries to beat into our skulls what they say it should be. Sometimes going with the flow is the best course of action, no matter where you end up.