If you are single, and he is married, are you a cheater?

[donnamaybe]

Stealing something is a crime...it's not a social more, it is a crime. I don't know about any other MM, but mine wasn't stolen...first of all he isn't intending on leaving home and secondly he has free will. He sought me...he ignored weeks and months of me preaching to go home and make things right. He made a choice and I wasn't a catalyst for it.

 

You BOTH made a choice. AP's are not run by MM/MW like puppets. They make choices. The choice to engage in an affair or not. Now the question is, is that right or wrong?

 

The "criminal" in MY scenario didn't commit a crime. They FOUND the camera. However, since you called it "stealing," I'm assuming we both feel that TAKING the "found" camera without attempting to find who it really belongs to is - get this - wrong.

[Owl]

The only difference between a crime and a social more is that one has been agreed upon to be enforced by a specific body of people...the other isn't officially enforced by any authorized group.

 

That makes neither more morally/ethically right or wrong...it just means one is 'enforceable' and one is not.

 

Just because stealing is "enforceable by the police" and infidelity is not does not make one more or less a violation of that society's inherent agreemants.

 

In some countries, infidelity IS a crime. Does that make it "more wrong" to cheat there than it does in a state where it's not enforced? Nope, it just means that someone can actually 'punish' you for doing so.

 

As far as the partner being "stolen"...well even in your case, the time and energy he invests in his relationship with you IS stolen from the time and energy that he would otherwise be investing in his marriage and his family.

 

And you had to have been a catalyst for his choice. Or do you feel that he would have been attracted to and cheated with ANYONE/ANYTHING that had been standing in the spot you were in?

 

Clearly not, unless you think he's just a complete scumbag. Odds are, you feel that he is attracted to you, and values the relationship between you.

 

If that relationship sucked...he wouldn't have invested the time in it. Ergo...it (and you by proxy) ARE INDEED a catalyst for his cheating. Otherwise, anything/anyone else could fill the role that you're playing right now.

 

I get that you feel you don't "owe" any kind of allegiance to his wife or family...don't take me wrong.

 

But at the same time, you're clearly 'part' of the overall situation. Unless you feel that your own intrinsic value was in no part of his choice to cheat...in other words, he would have hooked up with anyone regardless of how horrid they were...you're a factor. Even if you don't feel that you are...he probably would, if he were able to think clearly and rationally.

 

No insults intended here...just an observation.

[donnamaybe]

The only difference between a crime and a social more is that one has been agreed upon to be enforced by a specific body of people...the other isn't officially enforced by any authorized group.

 

That makes neither more morally/ethically right or wrong...it just means one is 'enforceable' and one is not.

 

Just because stealing is "enforceable by the police" and infidelity is not does not make one more or less a violation of that society's inherent agreemants.

 

In some countries, infidelity IS a crime. Does that make it "more wrong" to cheat there than it does in a state where it's not enforced? Nope, it just means that someone can actually 'punish' you for doing so.

 

As far as the partner being "stolen"...well even in your case, the time and energy he invests in his relationship with you IS stolen from the time and energy that he would otherwise be investing in his marriage and his family.

 

And you had to have been a catalyst for his choice. Or do you feel that he would have been attracted to and cheated with ANYONE/ANYTHING that had been standing in the spot you were in?

 

Clearly not, unless you think he's just a complete scumbag. Odds are, you feel that he is attracted to you, and values the relationship between you.

 

If that relationship sucked...he wouldn't have invested the time in it. Ergo...it (and you by proxy) ARE INDEED a catalyst for his cheating. Otherwise, anything/anyone else could fill the role that you're playing right now.

 

I get that you feel you don't "owe" any kind of allegiance to his wife or family...don't take me wrong.

 

But at the same time, you're clearly 'part' of the overall situation. Unless you feel that your own intrinsic value was in no part of his choice to cheat...in other words, he would have hooked up with anyone regardless of how horrid they were...you're a factor. Even if you don't feel that you are...he probably would, if he were able to think clearly and rationally.

 

No insults intended here...just an observation.

 

These are all very good points, Owl, as usual.

 

Especially the one about the OW/OM not playing any part in the WS's choice to cheat. If there's this amazing love story going on, as most OW/OM contend, then it must be them and ONLY them the WS would have responded to. VERY good observation!

 

You're such a smart guy!!!

[MizFit]

I understand your situation with your cousin as I face it in my family on numerous occasions. I came upon a cousin with his OW in my city a couple of years ago. I didn't tell his W because I have no relationship with her. I don't know her. I had no way of contacting her. She was truly a stranger to me, even though she is married to a man that I am related to.

 

My cousin didn't ask me not to tell his W a thing - but he did leave because he didn't want me seeing what he was doing. Just because he didn't ask me to do anything duplicitous for him, doesn't mean that he wasn't behaving so towards someone and I knew about it. The only R I have with my cousin is that of family. He would never be a friend to me because he has shown in most situations (including his M and other things) that he can not be counted on.

 

I think Trimmer raised some excellent points in his long post about public and community ties, boundaries, and social expectations. Its a shame, to me, that you chose to only address the part that you could argue/debate about. Its unfortunate that in mentioning the responsibility an OW/OM has for their part in the A, for their active choice in helping someone else betray their marriage/vows, all they hear is onesided blame - when that's not at all what is being put forward.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you, or overstate what Trimmer has so eloquently stated. I find it interesting that some OW/OM try to argue that they themselves are as invisible in the A as they make the betrayed in the M. I certainly agree to disagree with you, just stating my observation.

 

I'm not saying I'm invisible in the A...I have never said I am invisible in the A. I am very visible. I don't hide my relationship with him...I've never hidden from his W. She and I have spoken on several Ddays and I have never hidden nor have I lied. If there are any further I still won't lie. I also have never made his BS invisible in the M. By all accounts from mutual friends she is a good woman...MM has never uttered a bad word about her...he loves her, but it's very complacent...now that there have been a few Ddays she is having sex more often...neither will go to IC or MC. She is anything but invisible...keep in mind she isn't someone I go to great lengths to discuss because when we're together or communicating the conversations are about us or kids or jobs.

 

As far as having an active role in betraying his BS...I have never lied to her. I have never put out a story as to where we were and I have never skulked off anywhere to be with him. We live quite some distance away so it isn't often we're in proximity to their town, but having said that we've stayed very close and though there could have been friends around we still walked hand in hand and did what we do. He has lied to her repeatedly...for over a year now...I haven't. As far as social mores...as I said I do agree As are anti societal, but they are anti societal from the WS. I'm sorry...I felt this way as a BS and I feel this way now. I don't see there is a discussion because I see the guilt and responsibility on the WS. My xH crossed boundaries by sleeping with someone. Did it matter one tiny iota who it was? No. It could have been Princess Di or it could have been a milk maid along the road...it didn't matter. He made a place for her and invited her in. I have no idea what he said to her and I don't care...she was in my marriage because of a WS. If he hadn't done what he did then no one could have entered. Societal mores meant nothing to me as far as the OW was concerned...if he had been strong and lived to his vows she would not have been an issue.

 

NID...no worries about agreeing to disagree. As I always state, my views are mine and that's that. I am not in here advocating to young girls that As are wonderful and marvelous and everything you can dream of. I am giving another point of view. I am in a relationship with a man I adore and would love to spend the rest of my life with...it won't happen because of some extenuating circumstances and I accept it. I get sad sometimes and I dream about what it could be like, but that's what I've chosen. To me it is important, at this moment in time, to have him in my life. I date...I have fun...I have a life...he is not the center of my universe. I am absolutely in an odd situation and I'll remain in it until one of us decides I won't.

 

I hope I actually made sense...I'm tired and rambling I'm afraid!

[MizFit]

You BOTH made a choice. AP's are not run by MM/MW like puppets. They make choices. The choice to engage in an affair or not. Now the question is, is that right or wrong?

 

The "criminal" in MY scenario didn't commit a crime. They FOUND the camera. However, since you called it "stealing," I'm assuming we both feel that TAKING the "found" camera without attempting to find who it really belongs to is - get this - wrong.

 

Someone 'finds' a camera that isn't theirs...that's stealing...I gave it a name. I do like how you conveniently didn't bother to mention anything about the MM not being stolen...free will and all...

 

If you care to read my posts you will see I clearly say I had a choice and I made it. The answer to right or wrong...to me in this instance it is right. I made the decision to progress a relationship with someone. As stated in another post I have no regrets.

 

Please don't take any offense if I don't respond to your posts unless you can come up with something a bit more thought provoking.

[donnamaybe]

Someone 'finds' a camera that isn't theirs...that's stealing...I gave it a name. I do like how you conveniently didn't bother to mention anything about the MM not being stolen...free will and all...

 

If you care to read my posts you will see I clearly say I had a choice and I made it. The answer to right or wrong...to me in this instance it is right. I made the decision to progress a relationship with someone. As stated in another post I have no regrets.

 

Please don't take any offense if I don't respond to your posts unless you can come up with something a bit more thought provoking.

 

Finders keepers and all that. Not stealing. Funny how you conveniently label it a "crime" when YOU think it's "wrong," but others aren't free to label AP's in the "wrong."

 

:lmao: I know why you don't want to respond. Care to respond to Owl's?

[MizFit]

The only difference between a crime and a social more is that one has been agreed upon to be enforced by a specific body of people...the other isn't officially enforced by any authorized group.

 

That makes neither more morally/ethically right or wrong...it just means one is 'enforceable' and one is not.

 

Just because stealing is "enforceable by the police" and infidelity is not does not make one more or less a violation of that society's inherent agreemants.

 

In some countries, infidelity IS a crime. Does that make it "more wrong" to cheat there than it does in a state where it's not enforced? Nope, it just means that someone can actually 'punish' you for doing so.

 

As far as the partner being "stolen"...well even in your case, the time and energy he invests in his relationship with you IS stolen from the time and energy that he would otherwise be investing in his marriage and his family.

 

And you had to have been a catalyst for his choice. Or do you feel that he would have been attracted to and cheated with ANYONE/ANYTHING that had been standing in the spot you were in?

 

Clearly not, unless you think he's just a complete scumbag. Odds are, you feel that he is attracted to you, and values the relationship between you.

 

If that relationship sucked...he wouldn't have invested the time in it. Ergo...it (and you by proxy) ARE INDEED a catalyst for his cheating. Otherwise, anything/anyone else could fill the role that you're playing right now.

 

I get that you feel you don't "owe" any kind of allegiance to his wife or family...don't take me wrong.

 

But at the same time, you're clearly 'part' of the overall situation. Unless you feel that your own intrinsic value was in no part of his choice to cheat...in other words, he would have hooked up with anyone regardless of how horrid they were...you're a factor. Even if you don't feel that you are...he probably would, if he were able to think clearly and rationally.

 

No insults intended here...just an observation.

 

Yes...malum in se and malum prohibitum...I was pre law so I'm well aware. Not too long ago it was illegal to engage in homosexual activity...it was illegal to open stores on a Sunday...we won't even go into the laws on the books to keep races segregated.

 

Yes...in some countries adultery is a crime and people are sentenced to death. In some countries people are caned for littering. In some countries fingers are cut off for theft.

 

I absolutey agree that the time he spends with me is time he should be investing in his family and again it is his choice to spend it with me. I do not put demands on him...I do not insist. He makes the decision to not focus that time on his family.

 

You'll see in one of my other posts that he had taken a decision to have an affair and some of the cursory reasons for it. There are more than that and I'll happily PM some of the larger ones, but I'm not prepared to put it on the forum. He met several people and nothing came of it...we met and you know basically the rest of it. He was looking for something to fill gaps in his M...he would have kept looking. As he said he had wanted a FWB and hadn't expected to find what he did with me.

 

I didn't take any of what you said as insulting...I always love reading your posts. Again, you're thought provoking and considered. I don't always agree with you, but I always listen.

 

No one here knows the history of what has happened in any A...no one has been on the phone when we've talked and no one has been with us when we've been sad. Others can make presumptions about how he would have copped off with anyone...I know what he did and I know how we started and I know how we've progressed.

 

No one here knows my feelings as a BS so many years ago and how I truly...honestly and totally don't regard the OW as a factor now, nor did I then. No one here has my experiences and my mindset and no matter how I try and explain you never will...that's fine.

 

Thank you Owl...please keep posting. You help many, many people.

[MizFit]

Finders keepers and all that. Not stealing. Funny how you conveniently label it a "crime" when YOU think it's "wrong," but others aren't free to label AP's in the "wrong."

 

:lmao: I know why you don't want to respond. Care to respond to Owl's?

 

As I said...I don't care to respond to your twisting of words and barbs. I have just left a lengthy response to Owls...he is one of the posters here I respect the most. I don't always agree, but I do respect him immensely.

[EnigmaXOXO]

Your ex husband betrayed your trust and invited a complete stranger into your marriage without your knowledge or consent. You were obviously affected by his choice enough to consider him unworthy of continuing an honest relationship with you, and therefore found the self-confidence and inner strength needed to exit your marriage and remove yourself and your child from a disingenuous partner.

 

So why would you then choose to repeat the past and enter yet another relationship with a man who is all too similar to the husband you left?

 

Is there some part of you that believes you’ll have better control over this situation and those caught up in it from this side of the triangle --- or have you stopped to consider that (like so many other folks) you are drawn to similar situations and people because on a subconscious level you might be trying to resolve past scenarios and situations that left you feeling so powerless over before??

[MizFit]

Your ex husband betrayed your trust and invited a complete stranger into your marriage without your knowledge or consent. You were obviously affected by his choice enough to consider him unworthy of continuing an honest relationship with you, and therefore found the self-confidence and inner strength needed to exit your marriage and remove yourself and your child from a disingenuous partner.

 

So why would you then choose to repeat the past and enter yet another relationship with a man who is all too similar to the husband you left?

 

Is there some part of you that believes you’ll have better control over this situation and those caught up in it from this side of the triangle --- or have you stopped to consider that (like so many other folks) you are drawn to similar situations and people because on a subconscious level you might be trying to resolve past scenarios and situations that left you feeling so powerless over before??

 

I was a BS when I was 26...I have never been in a relationship with a married man until this one and it started when I was 46. In the meantime I have been out with men who are single, older, younger, different religions, different cultures, taller, shorter...I don't do scenarios and I don't have a history of being part of the triangle. What happened to me happened...I made the choice to leave. Trust me...I was anything but powerless when it ended.

 

I do like your thoughts though. They could well be true with someone else, but just not in my situation. Thanks for that.

[2long]

Before I respond 2 your post, let me tell you a favorite story of mine that ac2ally happened 2 a close friend of mine many years ago (in the days of FILM), that involved a rather expensive Nikon SLR camera.

 

My friend literally found this camera on a picnic bench in one of the national parks. No identifying marks on it whatsoever. He 2k it 2 the ranger station, intending 2 2rn it in2 the lost and found, and was told that in all probability the owner will never come back for it (because they had shelves of lost items that end up being discarded or donated), so he might as well keep it (but they'd take down his contact information and a detailed description of the camera in case the owner did come looking for it).

 

He 2k the camera home with him and waited for a call from the ranger. When weeks passed with no phone call, he got 2 wondering if there might be some other way 2 find the owner. Looking the camera over again, he realized there was a roll of film in it, and that several pic2res had been taken with it. So, he had the film developed and prints made. Lots of pic2res of family posing in front of overlooks, but nothing 2 identify them... ...except a single pic2re that showed one of them loading a backpack in2 the trunk of a car. He got the license plate number and state off the car, called the state's DMV and asked them 2 have the owner of the car contact him (since the DMV couldn't give out their name/address). A few days later, he got called by the owner of the camera, who had lost it on their vacation. Descriptions all fit and they got their camera back.

 

He went way beyond the call of duty, but he feels better 2 this day for choosing 2 do things like that, just 2 make a complete stranger feel a little better about his fellow man.

 

as far as expending calories to avoid the affair-were you privvy to the phone conversations to him when we first met telling him he needed to go and concentrate on his W? Were you there when he was telling me what a lovely woman she was and how sad it was they'd drifted so far apart and I told him to go and get help for himself and his W? Were you there when he talked about some of the personal issues that should have brought them together that ripped them apart, but at the same time acted like some sort of cruel glue? Were you there when at every turn I told him not to throw away 30 some years of marriage? No...you weren't.

 

I agree, obviously I have 2 answer "no" 2 all those questions.

 

Why were you talking 2 this person about his marriage? He should have respected his wife enough 2 not talk 2 another woman about her without her approval.

 

As your conversations progressed (so far as I can determine from this account, which is almost "script" for what all OP in similar si2ations say about the beginnings of their affairs, though specifics do differ somewhat from sitch 2 sitch), the mu2al attraction increased, the marriage "worsened" (coming from the WH's viewpoint, which is affected by his growing attraction 2 you), and since you didn't have any empathy for his wife that would prevent you from so much as listening 2 his whining, he saw a green light 2 go ahead.

 

Temptation can be a very powerful thing. I'm not sure I could have resisted the kind of temptation he had when I think back on some "harmless crushes" I had early on in my marriage {edit: These weren't early, they were about 15-20 years ago, now that I think about it}, if the crushee had responded by expressing feelings for me. (Truthfully, I always thought I was good at keeping my feelings 2 myself, and that nobody knew about them, and they even2ally faded. But after d-day, my W told me that she knew about them, and that she believed that 2 of them knew about them as well. If that's true, I can probably thank those women for keeping their feelings, whatever they were, 2 themselves and thus give me the chance 2 focus on my marriage... ...but I'm not sure how true it is, because my W was in her affair at the time of both crushes).

 

HE MADE HIS CHOICE. I had been attracted to him and once it was clear his choice was made I made mine. I don't particularly care if you like it or not...I made it and there isn't one tiny bit of me that regrets it. You're welcome to start the morality speech...I would almost imagine you won't come up with anything I haven't heard before or that would remotely interest me.

 

I'm sure your right. But, just in case... it's where you said the part I've bolded, that you "kept the camera, even though you'd developed the film, read the license plate, and knew you could re2rn it and brighten a stranger's life a little."

 

Let me give you a tip...instead of throwing out little judgemental barbs, start putting some thought and effort into it.

 

Fair enough.

 

Trimmer put his heart into one of his posts and I appreciated the time and effort and thought that went into it. I don't view things as he does, but it doesn't mean I don't care what he has to say. You said it...very well done and thought out.

 

-ol' 2long

Edited May 28, 2010 by 2long

[MizFit]

Before I respond 2 your post, let me tell you a favorite story of mine that ac2ally happened 2 a close friend of mine many years ago (in the days of FILM), that involved a rather expensive Nikon SLR camera.

 

My friend literally found this camera on a picnic bench in one of the national parks. No identifying marks on it whatsoever. He 2k it 2 the ranger station, intending 2 2rn it in2 the lost and found, and was told that in all probability the owner will never come back for it (because they had shelves of lost items that end up being discarded or donated), so he might as well keep it (but they'd take down his contact information and a detailed description of the camera in case the owner did come looking for it).

 

He 2k the camera home with him and waited for a call from the ranger. When weeks passed with no phone call, he got 2 wondering if there might be some other way 2 find the owner. Looking the camera over again, he realized there was a roll of film in it, and that several pic2res had been taken with it. So, he had the film developed and prints made. Lots of pic2res of family posing in front of overlooks, but nothing 2 identify them... ...except a single pic2re that showed one of them loading a backpack in2 the trunk of a car. He got the license plate number and state off the car, called the state's DMV and asked them 2 have the owner of the car contact him (since the DMV couldn't give out their name/address). A few days later, he got called by the owner of the camera, who had lost it on their vacation. Descriptions all fit and they got their camera back.

 

He went way beyond the call of duty, but he feels better 2 this day for choosing 2 do things like that, just 2 make a complete stranger feel a little better about his fellow man.

 

 

 

I agree, obviously I have 2 answer "no" 2 all those questions.

 

Why were you talking 2 this person about his marriage? He should have respected his wife enough 2 not talk 2 another woman about her without her approval.

I agree he should have been talking to her...as I have said repeatedly I told him to go and work on it.

 

As your conversations progressed (so far as I can determine from this account, which is almost "script" for what all OP in similar si2ations say about the beginnings of their affairs, though specifics do differ somewhat from sitch 2 sitch), the mu2al attraction increased, the marriage "worsened" (coming from the WH's viewpoint, which is affected by his growing attraction 2 you), and since you didn't have any empathy for his wife that would prevent you from so much as listening 2 his whining, he saw a green light 2 go ahead.

He has never said a bad word about his wife and he never said his marriage was bad...there were issues about sex that they had tried to address in counselling and remained unresolved. They, as a couple, chose not to go further with it. He never told me it was a bad marriage...lack of sex brought a lack of intimacy and they ended up in a complacent, yet pleasant, marriage. He has never promised me a thing...he has never told me there is zero sex or that he doesn't try. He has never said a bad thing about her...our conversations were probably very far from other conversations in other As.

 

Temptation can be a very powerful thing. I'm not sure I could have resisted the kind of temptation he had when I think back on some "harmless crushes" I had early on in my marriage {edit: These weren't early, they were about 15-20 years ago, now that I think about it}, if the crushee had responded by expressing feelings for me. (Truthfully, I always thought I was good at keeping my feelings 2 myself, and that nobody knew about them, and they even2ally faded. But after d-day, my W told me that she knew about them, and that she believed that 2 of them knew about them as well. If that's true, I can probably thank those women for keeping their feelings, whatever they were, 2 themselves and thus give me the chance 2 focus on my marriage... ...but I'm not sure how true it is, because my W was in her affair at the time of both crushes).

 

 

 

I'm sure your right. But, just in case... it's where you said the part I've bolded, that you "kept the camera, even though you'd developed the film, read the license plate, and knew you could re2rn it and brighten a stranger's life a little."

I would have left the camera with the ranger and the owner would had to have come to look for it. I wouldn't have taken it with me at any given point. I would have expected the owner of the camera to go looking in the last place they remembered it being and I wouldn't have thought I was doing them any favors by taking it away, no matter what my intentions were. Funny...see how differently we can see the same situation...

 

 

Fair enough.

 

 

 

-ol' 2long

 

I've italicized my responses...

[2long]

I agree he should have been talking to her...as I have said repeatedly I told him to go and work on it.

 

But you shouldn't have needed 2 repeat yourself. Once should have been enough, followed by an end 2 the conversation (by leaving, if you have 2).

 

He has never said a bad word about his wife and he never said his marriage was bad...there were issues about sex that they had tried to address in counselling and remained unresolved.

 

Why did you talk 2 him about their sex life?

 

They, as a couple, chose not to go further with it. He never told me it was a bad marriage...lack of sex brought a lack of intimacy and they ended up in a complacent, yet pleasant, marriage.

 

I'm confused. You've said that you've talked 2 the W and that there have been multiple d-days (which suggests they weren't pleasant conversations and that between them, you're being deliberately deceitful). And yet, the above account of their marriage, if true, implies that they have an open marriage or that she either approves of or at least doesn't care that her H has a FWB?

 

He has never promised me a thing...he has never told me there is zero sex or that he doesn't try. He has never said a bad thing about her...our conversations were probably very far from other conversations in other As.

 

And you don't mind being a piece o' butt on the side, and pretty much nothing more? Except for some not-2-deep conversational fulfillment 2 keep you?

 

I would have left the camera with the ranger and the owner would had to have come to look for it. I wouldn't have taken it with me at any given point. I would have expected the owner of the camera to go looking in the last place they remembered it being and I wouldn't have thought I was doing them any favors by taking it away, no matter what my intentions were. Funny...see how differently we can see the same situation...

 

There clearly hadn't been anyone at that picnic table in several hours, maybe even longer. The owner wasn't going 2 come back.

 

-ol' 2long

[Sunshine16]

Cheater, conspirator, aider and abbettor, home-wrecker. What difference does it make what the label is?

 

Bottom line is it's not right.

[Mombot]

Stealing something is a crime...it's not a social more, it is a crime. I don't know about any other MM, but mine wasn't stolen...first of all he isn't intending on leaving home and secondly he has free will. He sought me...he ignored weeks and months of me preaching to go home and make things right. He made a choice and I wasn't a catalyst for it.

 

I did not realize you could steal people. This is an interesting point of view...

[MizFit]

But you shouldn't have needed 2 repeat yourself. Once should have been enough, followed by an end 2 the conversation (by leaving, if you have 2).

I have been repeating it on this thread...over and over and over. I am taking your advice though...this will be the last response unless someone can come up with something that doesn't require an answer that has been stated over and over again...

 

 

 

Why did you talk 2 him about their sex life?

Slow day at the BBC? In all fairness there was very little talking from me about their sex life...he was explaining his situation and I was listening.

 

 

 

I'm confused. You've said that you've talked 2 the W and that there have been multiple d-days (which suggests they weren't pleasant conversations and that between them, you're being deliberately deceitful). And yet, the above account of their marriage, if true, implies that they have an open marriage or that she either approves of or at least doesn't care that her H has a FWB?

No need for confusion...again, it's been said many times however I'll try and put it into it's simplest terms for you-3 Ddays, I answered every question she asked and a few she didn't, she has my mobile and home numbers as well as my email and home address...I have not been deceitful, and the last...there is nothing in any of my posts to imply it is an open marriage. If it were I wouldn't be discussing it as an affair now would I?

 

 

And you don't mind being a piece o' butt on the side, and pretty much nothing more? Except for some not-2-deep conversational fulfillment 2 keep you?

Who said I'm the piece on the side? Trust me...he's probably more concerned about being MY piece on the side than I am being his. But no...I don't mind because there is enough there for us to enjoy each others company, spend lovely times together, chat and talk on the phone, and deepen a relationship. Again, as I've stated over and over and over in this thread, when it's not fulfilling it will end. I am fully aware of his circumstances and I've accepted them.

 

 

 

There clearly hadn't been anyone at that picnic table in several hours, maybe even longer. The owner wasn't going 2 come back.

Oh sorry...I must have nodded off by that part of the story, but my view remains...I'd have turned it into a ranger or authority of some sort. I wouldn't have taken it with me. Amazing how we people are...we can have something that means so very much to us and at times be so thoughtless as to leave it unattended and vulnerable. I actually did that with my first marriage (notice that says marriage, not spouse) and became a BS...

 

-ol' 2long

 

I'm getting bored repeating myself so I'm sure anyone else is doing the same reading it. If you have anything that I haven't covered I'm happy to respond to it...if not I'll wait for someone else to jump in. Having said that it's a long weekend and I'm off and running shortly. Have a good one...

[MizFit]

I did not realize you could steal people. This is an interesting point of view...

 

That was basically what I was getting at...he wasn't 'stolen'...people have free will and do what they wish. I wasn't trying to 'steal' him anyway...he was doing the pursuing. I could have walked away, but as I said there was a point I made my choice.

[Eeyore79]

If I didn't make the marriage vows, I consider myself free to do what I want with whoever I want. If he's married, that's his responsibility, not mine. In reality I probably wouldn't date a married man, simply because I need more attention than he would be able to provide, and obviously I want my relationship to have a future (which it wouldn't if he was already married). But if we're talking about just having sex or whatever, then the other person's marital status is their own problem.

 

A slightly different question: What if you're dating someone who is taken but doesn't tell you about it? Are you a cheater then? My ex was in a LTR when we met, but he didn't tell me - I found out months down the line when I was already involved. By that point I found it difficult to extricate myself because I was already in love with him. So was I always involved in cheating, or never involved, or was I only guilty after I found out he was taken and I continued seeing him because he vowed it was over and they were breaking up?

Edited May 29, 2010 by Eeyore79

[2long]

Cheater, conspirator, aider and abbettor, home-wrecker. What difference does it make what the label is?

 

Bottom line is it's not right.

 

Correct:

 

People in these si2ations that aren't able 2 see this are either in denial, blocking themselves from feeling, or have a screw loose.

 

Neither case involves a "bad person", just someone currently lacking an important ingredient of wisdom. I've known of many with backgrounds similar 2 Mizfit's FOO. They were never given the tools growing up because their parents weren't able 2 give them.

 

I'm not religious, but I have definitely found that people often need 2 have painful first-hand experience with life-altering events like infidelity (either as the betrayed, betrayer, or willing participant/OP) in order 2 grow as an individual. I sure did.

 

-ol' 2long

[MizFit]

Correct:

 

People in these si2ations that aren't able 2 see this are either in denial, blocking themselves from feeling, or have a screw loose.

 

Neither case involves a "bad person", just someone currently lacking an important ingredient of wisdom. I've known of many with backgrounds similar 2 Mizfit's FOO. They were never given the tools growing up because their parents weren't able 2 give them.

 

I'm not religious, but I have definitely found that people often need 2 have painful first-hand experience with life-altering events like infidelity (either as the betrayed, betrayer, or willing participant/OP) in order 2 grow as an individual. I sure did.

 

-ol' 2long

 

Regarding the last bit, which I have bolded. If this portion is still being addressed AT me then here is the response-as stated several times I was a BS years ago and I NEVER EVER BLAMED THE OW. I have a very distinct belief that the only blame is to the WS...that is my belief and it stems from my experience as a BS. If I were some sort of pariah who preyed on married men and had no experience of being a BS I could understand you jumping on the bandwagon, but that isn't the case.

 

I'm glad you were given sufficient tools that you were able to grow up and become so judgemental. Quite frankly I find this post incredibly offensive to myself and my parents...how do YOU presume to know what my parents did or did not teach me? I dare to not agree with you on something and when I don't back down and grovel you throw insults to me and mine. I think what you've written is reflective more of you than it is of me.

[2long]

Regarding the last bit, which I have bolded. If this portion is still being addressed AT me

 

It's not.

 

If I were some sort of pariah who preyed on married men and had no experience of being a BS I could understand you jumping on the bandwagon, but that isn't the case.

 

I don't believe it's the case, either. But if any players in these sitches can be considered "prey", it's the BS, not the WS or the OP. Though "victim" is a better term. But even that's not quite adequate, because being a victim in infidelity is ultimately a choice - or remaining one is, at least (given that nobody chooses 2 be cheated on, but they can choose what 2 do about it long term.).

 

I'm glad you were given sufficient tools that you were able to grow up and become so judgemental.

 

Obviously, I wasn't given sufficient 2ls in order 2 not be affected by my wife's infidelity. But I have them now. And that was my point. I felt like Job for a long time after d-day, but I don't anymore.

 

Quite frankly I find this post incredibly offensive to myself and my parents...how do YOU presume to know what my parents did or did not teach me? I dare to not agree with you on something and when I don't back down and grovel you throw insults to me and mine. I think what you've written is reflective more of you than it is of me.

 

I think you're taking my posts 2 personally. But it was you who said your father was a philanderer and that your mother essentially just put up with it. How can such parents "adequately" prepare their kids for how 2 deal with infidelity in their own adult lives? Or even teach them that it's "wrong" (or at least not a particularly expedient path 2 enlightenment, if you're spiri2al at all).

 

But I'm sorry you're so offended by my posts. Like anything on a public forum, you're certainly welcome 2 take what you find useful and disregard the rest.

 

best,

-ol' 2long

Edited May 30, 2010 by 2long

[MizFit]

It's not.

 

 

 

I don't believe it's the case, either. But if any players in these sitches can be considered "prey", it's the BS, not the WS or the OP. Though "victim" is a better term. But even that's not quite adequate, because being a victim in infidelity is ultimately a choice - or remaining one is, at least (given that nobody chooses 2 be cheated on, but they can choose what 2 do about it long term.).

 

 

 

Obviously, I wasn't given sufficient 2ls in order 2 not be affected by my wife's infidelity. But I have them now. And that was my point. I felt like Job for a long time after d-day, but I don't anymore.

 

 

 

I think you're taking my posts 2 personally. But it was you who said your father was a philanderer and that your mother essentially just put up with it. How can such parents "adequately" prepare their kids for how 2 deal with infidelity in their own adult lives? Or even teach them that it's "wrong" (or at least not a particularly expedient path 2 enlightenment, if you're spiri2al at all).

 

But I'm sorry you're so offended by my posts. Like anything on a public forum, you're certainly welcome 2 take what you find useful and disregard the rest.

 

best,

-ol' 2long

 

I didn't 'take' the post personally, you made it personal.

 

If you'd read my posts you'd have seen I had a strong reaction my husbands infidelity-the marriage ended immediately. As you can see my response was very different to that of my mother and the reason is because she taught me to never be in the same situation she was in...I listened. She led by teaching and not example. My mother was a housewife who dealt with infidelity from the midsixties on...it wasn't exactly a time when benefits and help were available. Her parents weren't in a position to help...she did nothing, but it was because she wasn't prepared financially or emotionally. The world was different in the Ozzie and Harriet days...she always taught me I needed a profession and money and she supported me through the trauma of a cheating spouse and the following divorce.

 

You presumed too much and when you named me in the sentence you aimed it at me and you made it personal.

 

I do agree there are many times you walk away from an exchange between posters or between you and other posters with nothing. There are other times when you get tremendous amounts to think about.

 

I wish you the best.

[avenger]

If you get with a person and did not know that they had a spouse/mate then you are innocent and you must leave when you find out. But if you dont then you are an adulterer.

 

If you know that they have someone and you are single and you get with them anyways yes you are an adulterer.

 

It is simple.

People don know want to label themselves as that but it is what it is.

[MizFit]

If you get with a person and did not know that they had a spouse/mate then you are innocent and you must leave when you find out. But if you dont then you are an adulterer.

 

If you know that they have someone and you are single and you get with them anyways yes you are an adulterer.

 

It is simple.

People don know want to label themselves as that but it is what it is.

 

No...evidently you see it as they are cheaters...that is not what everyone sees it as. I'm presuming you're using adulterer and cheater interchangeably. I'm not going to get into any debates with you about my response that revolve around any of my previous posts on this thread. If you want to ask or say something that I haven't addressed I will gladly respond.

[Trimmer]

If you get with a person and did not know that they had a spouse/mate then you are innocent and you must leave when you find out. But if you dont then you are an adulterer.

 

If you know that they have someone and you are single and you get with them anyways yes you are an adulterer.

 

It is simple.

People don know want to label themselves as that but it is what it is.

 

No...evidently you see it as they are cheaters...that is not what everyone sees it as. I'm presuming you're using adulterer and cheater interchangeably. I'm not going to get into any debates with you about my response that revolve around any of my previous posts on this thread. If you want to ask or say something that I haven't addressed I will gladly respond.

Your sounding a little defensive and persecuted here... I wouldn't assume that poster was responding to you - a lot of times, someone just reads the first few posts in a therad and then responds without going through the whole thread, and this looks to me like as much like that kind of direct response as anything directed at you.

 

And I don't follow the presumption that this poster is using adulterer and cheater interchangeably. You could as easily presume that the poster is using "alduterer" to draw a distinction between the two: with "cheater" as someone who has made a promise (or has agreed to an obligation) that they are secretly betraying - by that definition, no, an OM/OW is not a "cheater." But on the other hand, if you take the definition of an adulterer to be someone involved in adultery, then yes, by that technical definition, an OM/OW would be an adulterer, and this would be a valid distinction to draw in some minds.

 

In my mind, what particular label you put on it doesn't particularly matter, and is a kind of a waste of energy to get all worked up about. The question is: should you or shouldn't you, how do you see yourself, and does this meet the standards of the kind of person you want to be? The particular word to be used is a peripheral concern to that more important discussion...