If you are single, and he is married, are you a cheater?

[MizFit]

Truly, we'd all be a whole lot happier if we'd stop needing 2 blame anybody for our own miseries and simply take responsibility for our own choices, good or bad. So, if his W finds out about the affair and kills her H, their kids, and then herself, it's not your fault, is it? An extreme example, of course, but things like that do happen. You aren't responsible for her horrible reaction, but you are responsible for what led her 2 make such a choice. And if you could live with yourself after something like that (and if you are truly a fBS, you know that the pain of d-day is very intense), then you're not someone I ever want 2 run in2 in a dark alley.

 

You don't need to doubt whether or not I was a BS...I was. You also don't need to go to such an extreme scenario...well, maybe you do because anything less extreme basically is noneffective. No...it would not be my fault. I did not cheat on her-he has. I can live with myself just fine thanks...I can't quite figure why meeting me in a dark alley is such a foreboding thought. I don't have fangs or carry firearms you know.

 

In your view, I'm sure they are. But it isn't your view that concerns me. It's the BW's. And empathizing with her based on my own experience as a BS, I'd bet large sums of other peoples' cash that that she'll believe that your moral compass is broken.

 

Empathizing with her on MY own experience as a BS...I'd leave the man who was cheating on me (her). We have had several conversations...the last one she questioned something about me and I asked her a few questions when she was done. She didn't like the fact the blame laid at his feet, but the answers she gave me were accepted as just that.

 

 

 

So, you grew up in a very dysfunctional family, with a father incapable of teaching real values, and a mother who couldn't stand up for herself and her kids and say "no more" 2 her H's philandering?

 

I grew up in a dysfunctional family and my father was absolutely fine teaching me values...he wasn't good leading by example. I had a mother who had no means of supporting herself and 2 children...had no help from family and no governmental assistance in the 60s to help her out. She was stuck and by the time we were young adults she was scared and it was easier to stay with the devil you know. I have no problem you discussing me, but I would appreciate you staying away from making judgements about my family.

 

 

I agree, the OP doesn't matter, it's the actions of the family member/WS that matters (initially), though even2ally most BSs realize it's their own emotional well-being that's all that matters.

 

 

 

This construct of rationalization seems fragile 2 me.

Your opinion...

 

 

Well, I've been working for over 8 years on not being so personally affected by what I read from waywards' keyboards. There are all kinds of reasons that people have affairs, but no real justifications. It'll never make sense 2 me why someone would have an affair with married person when there are plenty of unattached singles on this planet. When I read stories like yours, I try 2 understand why the teller chooses 2 live the way they do. In the end, it may have 2 suffice that I am simply more aware now that a large percentage of the population falls prey 2 their own weaknesses and temptations and gets involved with someone who's already in a committed relationship.

 

This is how I live...I have never been an OW until this relationship. I've never wanted to be in a relationship such as this...then it got bigger than both of us and we fell in love. There are many extenuating circumstances to his situation (you're welcome to look at my posts or PM me if you want me to repeat it), but he will never willingly leave home for any reason. He may push it to the point he is forced out, but he will never leave. He has never promised me anything...he has never lied. When we discuss things he normally starts by saying, don't ask the question if you don't want the answer. I date and go out...I have a very active social life. I love my MM with all of my heart, but he is not the man I will spend the rest of my life with. I'd love to, but that isn't in the cards for us. I'm not weak or emotionally scarred or crippled. I'm a stong and independent woman...I support myself and I have a fabulous son. I enjoy challenges and I love time to myself. I don't wait by the phone and I don't organize my time around when I may hear from or see MM. This is not something I sought, but it is in my life and I enjoy him...I'll be with him until I don't enjoy him (or the situation) any longer. I spent 2 months at the beginning telling him to go back home and either fix it or end it...he still chooses not to. That is my life...I'm seeing the unattached men...I have never been involved with another married man and I wouldn't intend to again. I'm about as well adjusted as they come and trust me-if you met me, dark alley or not, you'd find I'm not much different than anyone else.

-ol' 2long

 

 

My answers are all in bold up there...

[MizFit]

And the person who has an affair with the cheater is making a similar conscious effort, and is not idly sitting there waiting 2 be taken away.

 

-ol' 2long

 

Ummm...actually I was sitting idly by and he did come along and 'took me away'. I didn't seek him out at all...he made the effort and we built a relationship. Again, the action came from the WS. The decision to how his W was treated was his.

[sally4sara]

The WS is the one who is making a decision to be away from his family...it may be in playing too much golf, training too much for athletic competitions, an affair. I am not the person who sought to have an affair and not work on what was wrong with my relationship...he was. The OW/OM is insignificant in an A...that is my opinion. A WS can be unfaithful using prostitutes, having a series of 1 night stands, or even porn on the net. The infidelity is coming from the WS and no one else.

 

I was a BS...the OW had nothing to do with his infidelity...the choices were his and so were the consequences.

 

So the WS just humps the air after you've left the room huh? M'kay....

 

If it were golf or sports training - I'm betting the other spouse knows where the preoccupied spouse is during that time and what they are doing even if they do not like it.

Does your MM tell his wife where he is going, who with and that he will be humping the air after you leave?

 

Prostitutes are under some disadvantage in coming to their choice to be a prostitute - and her client need not be married. Neither does a person's choice in a ONS partner. Porn has no choice in who watches it - it is not a person agreeing to conspire with the WS.

 

YOU do have a choice and unless you're doing it to save your job or for money - it is not a choice made out of NEED or force. And why do you want to be so insignificant. Way to aspire! Ask your mother if the OW was insignificant after she discovered the affair. Maybe that is what you crave - the discovery part and being a big old deal there after?

[EnigmaXOXO]

So...if your best friend was cheating on their spouse...a spouse you had never met...would you tell the spouse or would you be a cheat?

 

This actually happened, twice. I disassociated myself from both toxic friends thus eliminating myself from becoming their unwilling accomplice… and allowing them to put me in the middle of their torrid little situations. So I guess you can say that I was the one who broke up with them!

 

Not a single regret to this day, either.

 

When it comes to the people I trust enough to get close to, quality is far better than quantity. Makes for a happier and less complicated life when you’re not having to constantly look over your shoulder or cover up for other people. Unfortunately, I’ve already learned the hard way that duplicitous folks usually bring more trouble to your doorstep than they’re worth. For that reason, I refuse to cheat myself out of an honest relationship anymore than I would enable someone else to do the same… be they friendships or otherwise.

[NoIDidn't]

Unfortunately, I’ve already learned the hard way that duplicitous folks usually bring more trouble to your doorstep than they’re worth.

 

Yeah, me too. I don't understand why not knowing the spouse that's being cheated on makes any difference to someone wanting them not to be hurt by their "friend's" cheating on them. I can't understand the need for such rationalizations.

 

A "friend" that uses such rationalizations against others is likely to use them, if they haven't already, on you. These traits aren't good for a mutually beneficial friendship, IMO.

[MizFit]

So the WS just humps the air after you've left the room huh? M'kay....

What? Sorry, but that makes no sense at all...it doesn't matter who or what he humps...if he's humping anything or anybody he is cheating-it makes no difference who or what.

 

If it were golf or sports training - I'm betting the other spouse knows where the preoccupied spouse is during that time and what they are doing even if they do not like it.

I agree...my point was that people make decisions every day to take time away from their marriages for a myriad of reasons. They make the decision to do what they will. I don't believe I ever gave the impression they were equivalent activities...they were listed as things that take time from relationships.

 

Does your MM tell his wife where he is going, who with and that he will be humping the air after you leave?

What's with this humping the air fixation you have? That is up to the MM to tell his W or not. He chooses not to and that is his decision...again, he has to live with the decision and the consequences.

 

Prostitutes are under some disadvantage in coming to their choice to be a prostitute - and her client need not be married. Neither does a person's choice in a ONS partner. Porn has no choice in who watches it - it is not a person agreeing to conspire with the WS.

Ummm...doesn't matter how a prostitute came to her profession. The fact is a man can cheat with anyone and it is infidelity. It does not have to be a single OW. It can be a prostitute, it can be too much porn online (which is a common issue with wives even though it's not an affair), it can be a ONS....each is something a WS hides from his BS. I do not conspire with the WS. My relationship is with him...his W relationship is with him. When she has approached me she has had the truth...other than that it's up to him what he wants to do. I don't lie to her and I don't go behind her back. There are photos of he and I on holidays on FB...we have common friends so I believe she can see them. I've told him I won't hide things from her...she has all of my contact details if she wants to speak to me or see me.

 

YOU do have a choice and unless you're doing it to save your job or for money - it is not a choice made out of NEED or force. And why do you want to be so insignificant. Way to aspire! Ask your mother if the OW was insignificant after she discovered the affair. Maybe that is what you crave - the discovery part and being a big old deal there after?

I'm not insignificant thank you...I've dated many men who are workaholics and I have more time with my MM than I've had with the others. We are on the phone daily and we manage some nice breaks away. As I said before I have a full life outside my life with him...I don't need to be with him, I choose to be with him. I enjoy being with him. My mother and I have discussed OW at length and yes, she has always believed the OW were insignificant. I crave discovery? We've had 3 DDays since November...I think if there was a craving it's been satisfied by now thanks. I don't need to be a 'big old deal'...I'm quite happy being me.

[MizFit]

This actually happened, twice. I disassociated myself from both toxic friends thus eliminating myself from becoming their unwilling accomplice… and allowing them to put me in the middle of their torrid little situations. So I guess you can say that I was the one who broke up with them!

 

Not a single regret to this day, either.

 

When it comes to the people I trust enough to get close to, quality is far better than quantity. Makes for a happier and less complicated life when you’re not having to constantly look over your shoulder or cover up for other people. Unfortunately, I’ve already learned the hard way that duplicitous folks usually bring more trouble to your doorstep than they’re worth. For that reason, I refuse to cheat myself out of an honest relationship anymore than I would enable someone else to do the same… be they friendships or otherwise.

 

I don't cheat myself out of anything...the relationship I have is part of my life, not all of it.

 

Glad you're happy with the decisions you made about your friends...I wouldn't have done that. I would have stayed out of it unless their SO was in touch with me and asked me if something was going on. I have to say if that happened I would have no regrets as to what I would do either.

 

I don't look over my shoulder...the single men I date complicate my life more than my MM comes close to doing.

[MizFit]

Yeah, me too. I don't understand why not knowing the spouse that's being cheated on makes any difference to someone wanting them not to be hurt by their "friend's" cheating on them. I can't understand the need for such rationalizations.

 

A "friend" that uses such rationalizations against others is likely to use them, if they haven't already, on you. These traits aren't good for a mutually beneficial friendship, IMO.

 

I don't recall saying the friend had asked anyone to be involved in a deceit. I was only referring to the party a relationship was held with. I had a cousin years ago who was cheating on her husband. She never asked me to do a thing that made me duplicitous...she had an affair and I knew. I hadn't met him (they lived out of state) so there was no relationship with him. I have no relationship with MMs W...that is his relationship.

 

Anyway...it's now Friday here and I have to be up in a few hours for work. I'm going to leave and agree to disagree...have a good night...

[2long]

So the WS just humps the air after you've left the room huh? M'kay....

 

Dad-gummit!! Now I have to go find some paper towels to wipe the coffee off my monitor!

 

-ol' 2long

[Trimmer]

Ummm...actually I was sitting idly by and he did come along and 'took me away'. I didn't seek him out at all...he made the effort and we built a relationship. Again, the action came from the WS. The decision to how his W was treated was his.

A relationship in which you invested no effort? It sounds like - in this area anyway - you live a life of taking no initiative, and you feel this insulates you from having to take responsibility. Take no initiative, and you have "plausible deniability" to protect yourself from any exposure to emotional or moral risk or harm. Although I don't agree, I believe I understand.

 

See to me, yes, marriage is a vow between two people, but it is one thing more: it is a public declaration, and it has always been this way. We invite our friends and we do it in front of our community, and we wear symbolic rings as indications that there is a big sign that says "Marriage Here" for all to see. That's why - in so many Western marriages anyway - one of the closing public pronouncements within the ceremony is some version of "What we have done here today, let no one put asunder..." Public notice.

 

(And incidentally, in case you invoke the "I don't believe in marriage" angle, well then, I don't believe in broken bones, so I'm going to start running stop signs from now on... "Believe" in it or not, it is a structure that exists in our society.)

 

So while you may argue, reasonably, that the WS should shoulder all the "blame" for the affair - if you need to fixate on that particular word - I also believe that a knowing affair partner is still doing something anti-social by stepping in where there is a clear, public "KEEP OUT" sign.

 

And if you argue that, well, the married person invited you in as a participant, I still say that you willingly enter with the knowledge that false pretenses are at play, and this is an anti-social act, in the sense that you know what the social norm is, but you choose to go against it.

 

So whether you apply the word "cheating", whether you assign all or partial "blame", I think being a knowing affair partner is anti-social.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong - behavior outside the accepted norm has sometimes changed social norms in ways that we later realize were needed (cf Rosa Parks).

 

But in other areas, we all follow social norms - unwritten ones, to which we never explicitly agree - which are there to keep order, to prevent us from hurting each other physically and emotionally, and any other number of societal benefits. So just because I don't know you and don't have a relationship with you, and haven't ever promised you anything specifically, I'm still not going to jump in front of you at the checkoiut line, I'm still going to wait my turn at the intersection or roundabout, I'm not going to open up your car just because I see something interesting on your back seat that I want to look at, and any other number of other behaviors things that I have learned my society, my community, and my neighbors expect of me, and I expect of them.

 

And so even if I don't know you, haven't made a vow to you, don't care about you personally, and have zero empathy for you as a community member, neighbor, or fellow human being, I'm still not going to have an affair with your spouse. I'm not going to consign you to the same irrelevant, dehumanized, invisible status that your spouse is, by having an affair with me and lying to you about it. Do I observe that boundary because I made you a personal promise? No, I do it because I'm a social human being.

Edited May 28, 2010 by Trimmer

[Mombot]

I guess then there is no such thing as a successful affair?

[Trimmer]

I guess then there is no such thing as a successful affair?

It sure does seem like the vast majority of them that we hear about on here eventually end up in a crash-and-burn scenario.

 

In the short term, if you can set aside any discomfort you have over stepping into someone's marriage (although you may not care, or may have convinced yourself, situationally, that you don't care), set aside your need for someone who can truly commit himself to you (and convince yourself that you don't care), set aside your eventual anguish at saying goodbye as he goes home to his "real" family (and convince yourself that you don't care), set aside the fact that you're involved with someone who is showing you, right to your face, that he can betray a partner's deepest trust in the worst way (and convince yourself that you don't care), set aside your need for your relationship to grow and develop into the unknown future (and convince yourself that you don't care) and finally, ensure that neither of you makes the tiniest slip that might cause your relationship to be discovered (and convince yourself that yours will be different...) then yes, sure, you can have a successful affair.

 

For as long as you can sustain all of that not-caring, limit your own emotional investment and accept how he must limit his, and scrupulously hide the relationship like it's something to be ashamed of, then rock on! Celebrate your success!

 

But is that measure of "success" really what you aspire to in a relationship?

[Mombot]

I do not know the W, and am starting to view it as his problem not mine. I certainly am not hiding.

[MizFit]

If hubby is playing too much golf or training too much, the wife knows where he is, there are most likely no lies being told. Because there is no one to lie about.

 

I think those that don't think the OW or OM are cheating tend to think that way to deny responsibility and justify their actions.

 

I never said the S was kept in the dark about golf or training...I was making the point that many people steer away from time 'in' their marriages and use many excuses. As you had quoted from me there was no comment about disclosure...just that people have many levels of separating themselves.

 

I am completely responsible for my relationship with him and I have no one to justify my actions to. Family and friends know as much about the relationship with him as they do with other men I see. I'm not trying to deny anything.

[MizFit]

A relationship in which you invested no effort? It sounds like - in this area anyway - you live a life of taking no initiative, and you feel this insulates you from having to take responsibility. Take no initiative, and you have "plausible deniability" to protect yourself from any exposure to emotional or moral risk or harm. Although I don't agree, I believe I understand.

 

See to me, yes, marriage is a vow between two people, but it is one thing more: it is a public declaration, and it has always been this way. We invite our friends and we do it in front of our community, and we wear symbolic rings as indications that there is a big sign that says "Marriage Here" for all to see. That's why - in so many Western marriages anyway - one of the closing public pronouncements within the ceremony is some version of "What we have done here today, let no one put asunder..." Public notice.

 

(And incidentally, in case you invoke the "I don't believe in marriage" angle, well then, I don't believe in broken bones, so I'm going to start running stop signs from now on... "Believe" in it or not, it is a structure that exists in our society.)

 

So while you may argue, reasonably, that the WS should shoulder all the "blame" for the affair - if you need to fixate on that particular word - I also believe that a knowing affair partner is still doing something anti-social by stepping in where there is a clear, public "KEEP OUT" sign.

 

And if you argue that, well, the married person invited you in as a participant, I still say that you willingly enter with the knowledge that false pretenses are at play, and this is an anti-social act, in the sense that you know what the social norm is, but you choose to go against it.

 

So whether you apply the word "cheating", whether you assign all or partial "blame", I think being a knowing affair partner is anti-social.

 

Hey, don't get me wrong - behavior outside the accepted norm has sometimes changed social norms in ways that we later realize were needed (cf Rosa Parks).

 

But in other areas, we all follow social norms - unwritten ones, to which we never explicitly agree - which are there to keep order, to prevent us from hurting each other physically and emotionally, and any other number of societal benefits. So just because I don't know you and don't have a relationship with you, and haven't ever promised you anything specifically, I'm still not going to jump in front of you at the checkoiut line, I'm still going to wait my turn at the intersection or roundabout, I'm not going to open up your car just because I see something interesting on your back seat that I want to look at, and any other number of other behaviors things that I have learned my society, my community, and my neighbors expect of me, and I expect of them.

 

And so even if I don't know you, haven't made a vow to you, don't care about you personally, and have zero empathy for you as a community member, neighbor, or fellow human being, I'm still not going to have an affair with your spouse. I'm not going to consign you to the same irrelevant, dehumanized, invisible status that your spouse is, by having an affair with me and lying to you about it. Do I observe that boundary because I made you a personal promise? No, I do it because I'm a social human being.

 

You are truly stretching the point with your opening gambit. Of course I had effort in building the relationship to what it is...I had no effort in seeking him out. As far as responsibility...please read my previous post to jthorne. As far as initiative...you're absolutely welcome to believe what you wish, because you are and will. I am a successful woman who moved countries (not to mention continents) with a 12 year old child when I was almost 40...I've ended a M when my H cheated on me-that led me to raising the previously mentioned child as a single mother from the age of 3...I have healthy and happy relationships with friends, family and have had wonderful partners. I've had a successful business of my own and I've worked my way up in several large companies. I've had heartache and I've had joy. I actively participate in life and I love it...my initiative and self esteem and any other standard emotional failing rained down on OW/OM are all just fine.

 

Many feel that the blame should be on an OW/OM because it makes it easier to absolve the WS from the full weight of the affair...that is completely their choice. My belief is as it is...as it was as a BS and as it is now as an OW. The decision rested with the WS and that is where it lies. I will absolutely agree that the position of the OW/OM is anti societal due to mores and values that do shift...we no longer have to wear scarlet As...but I will not agree that I shoulder responsibility to how he treats his W.

 

You may think absolutely nothing of me and that is how it should be. We are two strangers with polarized views of a heated topic...we have strong feelings and neither are likely to leave our stances. I will agree we need feel nothing for each other as members of society etc...but I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on your thoughts. I'm going to bow out of this discussion now as it is nothing more than an exercise in futility. I answered the question in the OP and I have tried to explain my stance...I don't feel I need to have to say the same thing over and over and keep chasing my tail.

 

I hope the OP gets what they need from the responses in all of the pages of this thread.

[Trimmer]

Family and friends know as much about the relationship with him as they do with other men I see. I'm not trying to deny anything.

 

I do not know the W, and am starting to view it as his problem not mine. I certainly am not hiding.

This is not meant as a poke, but I'm truly interested... Like MizFit, do your family and friends know as much about this relationship as they would any other man?

[Trimmer]

As far as initiative...you're absolutely welcome to believe what you wish, because you are and will. I am a successful woman who moved countries (not to mention continents) with a 12 year old child when I was almost 40...I've ended a M when my H cheated on me-that led me to raising the previously mentioned child as a single mother from the age of 3...I have healthy and happy relationships with friends, family and have had wonderful partners. I've had a successful business of my own and I've worked my way up in several large companies. I've had heartache and I've had joy. I actively participate in life and I love it...my initiative and self esteem and any other standard emotional failing rained down on OW/OM are all just fine.

I honestly didn't mean to besmirch your entire life - that's specifically why I added the "in this area, anyway", phrase, because I especially didn't like the way it read without that. No offense was meant to the rest of your life; I wouldn't presume to comment that broadly.

 

Many feel that the blame should be on an OW/OM because it makes it easier to absolve the WS from the full weight of the affair...that is completely their choice. My belief is as it is...as it was as a BS and as it is now as an OW. The decision rested with the WS and that is where it lies. I will absolutely agree that the position of the OW/OM is anti societal due to mores and values that do shift...we no longer have to wear scarlet As...but I will not agree that I shoulder responsibility to how he treats his W.

Well, with this statement, I think we're not really all that terribly far apart. I hear you and I understand your point, and I'm not all that far from it, really.

 

You may think absolutely nothing of me and that is how it should be. We are two strangers with polarized views of a heated topic...we have strong feelings and neither are likely to leave our stances.

Actually, you keep saying that, but I don't feel like we're all that polarized, and feel like I understand you a little better now. I believe I'd be safe if we met in a dark alley.

 

I will agree we need feel nothing for each other as members of society etc...but I will respectfully agree to disagree with you on your thoughts. I'm going to bow out of this discussion now as it is nothing more than an exercise in futility. I answered the question in the OP and I have tried to explain my stance...I don't feel I need to have to say the same thing over and over and keep chasing my tail.

I'm glad you stayed and contributed for as long as you did, and I did find you respectful and intelligent. Thanks.

 

I hope the OP gets what they need from the responses in all of the pages of this thread.

Take what you can, filter out the junk, and leave when you've had enough. The LS Credo...

[donnamaybe]

Sorry donnamaybe, but that is just plain silly. A camera doesn't actively seek out someone to take it home...it's set there and has no will and no control as to what it's doing. A person who is looking to have an A is making a conscious effort to cheat on their S. They are not idly sitting there waiting to be taken away.

 

I wasn't discussing the actions of the camera but of the "innocent" person who took it who actually did no "wrong."

[donnamaybe]

And the person who has an affair with the cheater is making a similar conscious effort, and is not idly sitting there waiting 2 be taken away.

 

-ol' 2long

 

You got me!

[donnamaybe]

Ummm...actually I was sitting idly by and he did come along and 'took me away'. I didn't seek him out at all...he made the effort and we built a relationship. Again, the action came from the WS. The decision to how his W was treated was his.

 

But the camera can't say to the person who would pick it up, "Hey! I don't belong to you!" but an AP can.

[2long]

I had no effort in seeking him out.

 

Clearly, you expended no calories avoiding an affair, either.

 

No morals. I rest my case.

 

Trimmer, your posts have been very well thought out and written!

 

-ol' 2long

[NoIDidn't]

I don't recall saying the friend had asked anyone to be involved in a deceit. I was only referring to the party a relationship was held with. I had a cousin years ago who was cheating on her husband. She never asked me to do a thing that made me duplicitous...she had an affair and I knew. I hadn't met him (they lived out of state) so there was no relationship with him. I have no relationship with MMs W...that is his relationship.

 

Anyway...it's now Friday here and I have to be up in a few hours for work. I'm going to leave and agree to disagree...have a good night...

 

 

I understand your situation with your cousin as I face it in my family on numerous occasions. I came upon a cousin with his OW in my city a couple of years ago. I didn't tell his W because I have no relationship with her. I don't know her. I had no way of contacting her. She was truly a stranger to me, even though she is married to a man that I am related to.

 

My cousin didn't ask me not to tell his W a thing - but he did leave because he didn't want me seeing what he was doing. Just because he didn't ask me to do anything duplicitous for him, doesn't mean that he wasn't behaving so towards someone and I knew about it. The only R I have with my cousin is that of family. He would never be a friend to me because he has shown in most situations (including his M and other things) that he can not be counted on.

 

I think Trimmer raised some excellent points in his long post about public and community ties, boundaries, and social expectations. Its a shame, to me, that you chose to only address the part that you could argue/debate about. Its unfortunate that in mentioning the responsibility an OW/OM has for their part in the A, for their active choice in helping someone else betray their marriage/vows, all they hear is onesided blame - when that's not at all what is being put forward.

 

I'm not trying to argue with you, or overstate what Trimmer has so eloquently stated. I find it interesting that some OW/OM try to argue that they themselves are as invisible in the A as they make the betrayed in the M. I certainly agree to disagree with you, just stating my observation.

[MizFit]

I honestly didn't mean to besmirch your entire life - that's specifically why I added the "in this area, anyway", phrase, because I especially didn't like the way it read without that. No offense was meant to the rest of your life; I wouldn't presume to comment that broadly.

 

 

Well, with this statement, I think we're not really all that terribly far apart. I hear you and I understand your point, and I'm not all that far from it, really.

 

 

Actually, you keep saying that, but I don't feel like we're all that polarized, and feel like I understand you a little better now. I believe I'd be safe if we met in a dark alley.

 

 

I'm glad you stayed and contributed for as long as you did, and I did find you respectful and intelligent. Thanks.

 

 

Take what you can, filter out the junk, and leave when you've had enough. The LS Credo...

 

 

Thank you Trimmer...I never mind having a discussion with someone who is respectful and truly wants to discuss something. I have no problem talking about my experiences and thoughts...I know full well not everyone agrees with me and that's fine. I have very strong views on abortion and religion as well, but I save those for another forum I frequent!

 

Love the LS Credo as well...so true. I think as long as people can take something away to think about it's been successful. I always think about things that have been said...I may not change my mind or even respond, but I always think about things.

[MizFit]

I wasn't discussing the actions of the camera but of the "innocent" person who took it who actually did no "wrong."

 

 

Stealing something is a crime...it's not a social more, it is a crime. I don't know about any other MM, but mine wasn't stolen...first of all he isn't intending on leaving home and secondly he has free will. He sought me...he ignored weeks and months of me preaching to go home and make things right. He made a choice and I wasn't a catalyst for it.

[MizFit]

Clearly, you expended no calories avoiding an affair, either.

 

No morals. I rest my case.

 

Trimmer, your posts have been very well thought out and written!

 

-ol' 2long

 

You go right ahead and rest your case. Your view of my morality doesn't really interest me...as far as expending calories to avoid the affair-were you privvy to the phone conversations to him when we first met telling him he needed to go and concentrate on his W? Were you there when he was telling me what a lovely woman she was and how sad it was they'd drifted so far apart and I told him to go and get help for himself and his W? Were you there when he talked about some of the personal issues that should have brought them together that ripped them apart, but at the same time acted like some sort of cruel glue? Were you there when at every turn I told him not to throw away 30 some years of marriage? No...you weren't. HE MADE HIS CHOICE. I had been attracted to him and once it was clear his choice was made I made mine. I don't particularly care if you like it or not...I made it and there isn't one tiny bit of me that regrets it. You're welcome to start the morality speech...I would almost imagine you won't come up with anything I haven't heard before or that would remotely interest me.

 

Let me give you a tip...instead of throwing out little judgemental barbs, start putting some thought and effort into it. Trimmer put his heart into one of his posts and I appreciated the time and effort and thought that went into it. I don't view things as he does, but it doesn't mean I don't care what he has to say. You said it...very well done and thought out.