Does the MM "owe" the OW anything when the A is over?

[NoIDidn't]

It is not the affair one wants, it is the relationship. Just like it is not the triple bypass surgery one wants but the beating heart.

 

Wow, now that's some hair splitting semantics. LOL.

 

I do see your point, but this is a lot of spinning. Obviously, though, if you want the R with a married person, you DO want the affair.

 

I really do see your point.

[Owl]

It is not the affair one wants, it is the relationship. Just like it is not the triple bypass surgery one wants but the beating heart.

 

I'd added that last little bit in just to add some humor to my post.

 

How about addressing the actual CONTENT of my post instead of this little irrelevent part?

[MizzBlue72]

NO - and it goes both ways.

You loved - and lost- move ON!!!!

[seren]

I've never been the OW in a relationship, never knowingly shared my lover with anyone, yet I know what it is to love. I don't have to be in an A to know what I expect from a relationship, I don't have to have an A to experience deep, profound love, I certainly wouldn't have stayed with the same person for 26 years unless I had deep, enduring love. I simply couldn't love anyone else anymore than I love H, he is my soulmate, despite his A. He had the opportunity on D Day to leave with no hassle from me, simply because I couldn't accept a life knowing that H would be happier elsewhere and I certainly do not and could not knowingly share. This does not mean that I am unable to think that H should have done the decent thing and answered OW's texts and phone messages to answer her Why?

[jennie-jennie]

But it's STILL an affair, not the primary relationship. When a MM or MW cheats on their spouse with an OW/OM, it's an affair. You can say it isn't maybe to you it isn't as it's your life, he's your life.. But your MM has another life with his wife.

 

Our relationship is my MM's primary love relationship. Romance, sex and intimacy are something he and I share, not he and his wife.

[wheelwright]

I spent some time thinking that it was Ok for xMOM to end things as he did. Like he was M and I knew that etc.

 

He blanked me in the street as farewell.

 

He had asked me to write a list of all the things that would help him love me properly forever. I said no, he should be himself. He then went home and asked his W to write similar list, and told me about it.

 

We had conversations about how he was going to leave his W after his kids were grown anyway.

 

The last time we were together he kissed me from head to foot. As a coda to lovemaking.

 

Is there really anything here that makes you feel I did not deserve closure?

 

If you share love with another human being, then end it decently. I am sorry for any betrayed parties, but covenants made illicitly are still covenants.

 

I still scream inside because of the lack of closure when it was due.

 

To be blanked in the street by anyone is a hit, by someone who has been intimate in a way that you only knew with them is hurtful beyond belief.

 

I have only just started to get a grip on the cruelty involved here.

 

I think someone should only enter a LA if they know they will leave. It's all cruelty beyond that. And they should give closure. Imagine, some poor ridiculous woman they once loved still imagining they will be together someday. Crikey.

 

And how he betrayed me.

[jthorne]

Is there really anything here that makes you feel I did not deserve closure?

 

I still scream inside because of the lack of closure when it was due.

I know this is going to seem cruel, but he owes you nothing. You knew he was married, as well as being married yourself. Just because feelings developed, that fact doesn't change.

 

Even if you were both single and broke up, the fact that you can't move on is your problem, not his. I'm not saying this to be mean. You have no control over him, just as he has none over you. So it's up to YOU to put yourself back together.

 

I wish you the very best in doing that.

[bentnotbroken]

MP owes AP the same respect, integrity and courtesy they gave to the BS.

[wheelwright]

I know this is going to seem cruel, but he owes you nothing. You knew he was married, as well as being married yourself. Just because feelings developed, that fact doesn't change.

 

Even if you were both single and broke up, the fact that you can't move on is your problem, not his. I'm not saying this to be mean. You have no control over him, just as he has none over you. So it's up to YOU to put yourself back together.

 

I wish you the very best in doing that.

 

 

I thank you for the wishes - i wish them for all involved myself.

 

He does owe me though. Or rather he did.

 

It's too late now.

 

I feel no meanness from you.

 

But you are wrong. Love creates a covenant beyond that of M. I am moving on - like I said before. He shouldn't have done it like he did.

 

His BS knew nothing about betrayal compared to what I went through.

 

I have always been very understanding in my life. I get why people do what they do, and I accept and understand. This time no. He behaved so badly to me. His M is not at this point relevant to me. They had both told me their M was dead. So am I a thing to use to reunite? No. If that's how they they feel, they should also give me that recognition.

 

Although the OW, I am a person.

[jennie-jennie]

I'd have to say that just because you've had a cardiac infarction, that doesn't mean you know how to treat it, nor does it mean that you would automatically recognize it in others and be able to help them fix it either.

 

The cardiac surgeon might not have "felt" it, but was trained to recognize it, and deal with it.

 

As a former BS, I'd say that I didn't "experience" what my wife went through pre d-day.

 

But I saw the symptoms of it. Discussed it at length with her afterwards, in a time when she was quite willing to discuss it regardless of what she thought the emotional impact to me might be. I replayed what I saw, what I went through over and over in my head for MONTHS afterwards, trying to figure out what I should have seen, what I should have done differently. Looked at the whole thing in-depth, trying to get her perspective (and OM's too, for that matter) so that I could truly make sense out of this period of sheer hell that I went through.

 

I garauntee that I've given it a hell of a lot more thought than most WS's do. Spent a lot more time trying to learn the why's and how's than the majority of WS's and OP's do.

 

And you know what...while I've never had a cardiac infarction, I've learned enough to know I sure don't WANT one either!

 

Just saying...don't be so quick to assume that someone "can't understand'...you don't always know enough about that other person to be able to judge that.

 

Your wife had an online relationship, never met the guy, hardly ever spoke to him on the phone. I can see that you would have trouble comparing that to "being in any other relationship".

[Owl]

Jennie, I'm wondering if you're intentionally sidestepping the point here?

 

You commented that:

I am not sure if I expressed myself clearly.

 

Once you found out about the affair there had to have been a Dday. Which means that you have no experience of being in an affair pre-Dday. You know how it feels to suspect one, but you do not know how it feels to be in one.

 

So you have no experience of being in an extramarital relationship, neither pre-Dday nor post-Dday, and how much or how little that compares to being in any other relationship, because you have never had an extramarital relationship.

 

As the BS, you can look at it from afar, just like the parent whose child is still alive and well can look at the pain of the parent whose child just died, but you just don't know how it feels. You can only imagine, not know.

 

Or, to use your example, like the cardiac surgeon who knows a lot about heart infarctions, but until he has one himself, has never really experienced how it feels to have one.

 

My response was intended to point out to you that trying to dismiss someone's point of view because they've not been the OW/OM was pretty single-minded.

 

Many BS's spend a LOT more time trying to "understand" than any of the other points on this triangle. They're the ones who are left trying to make sense of it all.

 

And dismissing/discrediting someone's comments because they weren't on that point of the triangle is not helpful, and probably doing a disservice to a lot of people.

 

That was the intent of my post.

 

In fact, it was interesting that you walked away with a focus on the thought that my wife's emotional affair was somehow "less" than any other affairs...and it gives the spin that makes my comments and observations somehow "less" as well?

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, I'm wondering if you're intentionally sidestepping the point here?

 

You commented that:

 

 

My response was intended to point out to you that trying to dismiss someone's point of view because they've not been the OW/OM was pretty single-minded.

 

Many BS's spend a LOT more time trying to "understand" than any of the other points on this triangle. They're the ones who are left trying to make sense of it all.

 

And dismissing/discrediting someone's comments because they weren't on that point of the triangle is not helpful, and probably doing a disservice to a lot of people.

 

That was the intent of my post.

 

In fact, it was interesting that you walked away with a focus on the thought that my wife's emotional affair was somehow "less" than any other affairs...and it gives the spin that makes my comments and observations somehow "less" as well?

 

I know of personal experience that our extramarital relationship is just like any other relationship I have had. I am 51 years old, so I am not inexperienced.

 

Drawing from that experience I am trying to relate to how any BS can claim the opposite. Either they must be wrong in general or their spouse's affair must be of a different kind than mine. That is the only conclusions I can draw.

 

I am sorry, but if you claim that no extramarital relationships are like relationships in general, I will have to disagree with you, because mine is. If on the other hand you claim that your wife's extramarital relationship is not like relationships in general, I can not dismiss your point of view. How could I? I am not your wife.

 

I have been the BS for decades to two serial cheaters. I can assure you that I had zero need compared to my situation today as the OW to research affairs. I have had to try for almost five years now to make my heart and my mind join forces. I had never met a man with a mindset like my MM's. It was a total mystery to me how a man could think like he does. I am still trying to come to terms with that. I am still trying to make sense of it all.

Edited June 7, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Owl]

I know of personal experience that our extramarital relationship is just like any other relationship I have had. I am 51 years old, so I am not inexperienced.

 

Drawing from that experience I am trying to relate to how any BS can claim the opposite. Either they must be wrong in general or their spouse's affair must be of a different kind than mine. That is the only conclusions I can draw.

 

I am sorry, but if you claim that no extramarital relationships are like relationships in general, I will have to disagree with you, because mine is. If on the other hand you claim that your wife's extramarital relationship is not like relationships in general, I can not dismiss your point of view. How could I? I am not your wife.

 

I have been the BS for decades to two serial cheaters. I can assure you that I had zero need compared to my situation today as the OW to research affairs.

 

Interesting points.

 

I'd suggest that what's different in your situation(s) is you.

 

Very, very many BS's spend a LOT of time trying to figure out the "why's". I've seen it a ton of times in my last six years here on LS and on other relationship/infidelity sites.

 

I had to learn not to focus on MY situation as being the same as everyone else's, and instead start looking at the patterns I see in all these other stories, and see how those compare to my own. I can see where mine is similar, and where mine is different.

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting points.

 

I'd suggest that what's different in your situation(s) is you.

 

Very, very many BS's spend a LOT of time trying to figure out the "why's". I've seen it a ton of times in my last six years here on LS and on other relationship/infidelity sites.

 

I had to learn not to focus on MY situation as being the same as everyone else's, and instead start looking at the patterns I see in all these other stories, and see how those compare to my own. I can see where mine is similar, and where mine is different.

 

So can I, and one conclusion I have drawn is that being in an extramarital relationship is like being in any other relationship.

 

I have during my adult life been exposed to several hardships. I have tackled most of them by joining groups, either on internet or IRL, of people in similar situations, and by researching and reading books about the problem at hand. It has been alcoholism, medical issues and treatments, dysfunctional family patterns, and now being the OW in an extramarital relationship.

 

Interestingly enough, the only time throughout these decades I have not felt the need to research or look for people in the same situation has been because of being the BS. I do believe it might have been because my WSs decided to remain with me, so the problem was only intermittent, not continuous. Once the WS was back with me, the pressure lightened.

 

Can you admit that I know more about my relationship with my MM than you do? So that if I say our relationship is like any other relationship it most likely is?

[Owl]

And FWIW, I mostly agree with you. I think that an affair is very, very similar to most "normal" (whatever you wanna consider that I guess) relationships.

 

I think that all relationships are created and sustained the same way.

 

The "difference" to me is the stressors involved in an affair vs an "out in the open" relationship. The hiding/deception required to maintain it, the limited contact because of this secrecy, the inability to communicate about the relationship to others....all of these are factors that have impacts on the relationship in a number of ways.

 

But the formation of bonds between people is a pretty 'standard process'.

[Owl]

 

Can you admit that I know more about my relationship with my MM than you do? So that if I say our relationship is like any other relationship it most likely is?

 

Yes, and no.

 

You know what your relationship FEELS like to you than anyone else does.

 

That doesn't mean that you truly have taken the time to think through the dynamics of it. Doesn't mean that you understand it. Doesn't mean that because it FELT like the same thing as your other relationships means that they've been similar/same as those others have been through.

 

As a matter of fact, I'd hinted earlier that the common denominator here is YOU.

 

It could be that YOU are bringing things into these relationships that keep them from being the same as everyone else's. You have a rather unique mindset, as does Owoman, or GEL for that matter. Your approach into this is a lot different than many other OW.

 

Whereas someone who is sitting on the outside, looking at this externally can see a lot of things that you're blind to from the inside. They can provide an OBJECTIVE view, rather than an involved view. They can look at your relationship without having the emotional engagement that you have...and so could be seeing it MORE clearly than you do.

[jennie-jennie]

And FWIW, I mostly agree with you. I think that an affair is very, very similar to most "normal" (whatever you wanna consider that I guess) relationships.

I think that all relationships are created and sustained the same way.

 

The "difference" to me is the stressors involved in an affair vs an "out in the open" relationship. The hiding/deception required to maintain it, the limited contact because of this secrecy, the inability to communicate about the relationship to others....all of these are factors that have impacts on the relationship in a number of ways.

 

But the formation of bonds between people is a pretty 'standard process'.

 

I am glad we agree about the basics.

 

Yes, and no.

 

You know what your relationship FEELS like to you than anyone else does.

 

That doesn't mean that you truly have taken the time to think through the dynamics of it. Doesn't mean that you understand it. Doesn't mean that because it FELT like the same thing as your other relationships means that they've been similar/same as those others have been through.

 

As a matter of fact, I'd hinted earlier that the common denominator here is YOU.

 

It could be that YOU are bringing things into these relationships that keep them from being the same as everyone else's. You have a rather unique mindset, as does Owoman, or GEL for that matter. Your approach into this is a lot different than many other OW.

 

Whereas someone who is sitting on the outside, looking at this externally can see a lot of things that you're blind to from the inside. They can provide an OBJECTIVE view, rather than an involved view. They can look at your relationship without having the emotional engagement that you have...and so could be seeing it MORE clearly than you do.

 

One thing for sure is that BSs do not provide an objective view.

 

So are you saying that with the right mindset of the OW/OM an extramarital relationship is like any other relationship?

Edited June 7, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Owl]

One thing for sure is that BSs do not provide an objective view.

 

See...this is an implied insult to all BS's. I don't care much for insults, veiled or otherwise.

 

What I WOULD say is that no one who is dealing with the highly emotionally charged situation that an affair creates is able to provide an objective view while in it, and it can color their perceptions on the subject permanently. BS, OW/OM, or WS...the point on the triangle is irrelevent.

 

 

So are you saying that with the right mindset of the OW/OM an extramarital relationship is like any other relationship?

 

Not at all. Because there are the mindsets of the other two people involved that play havoc with this being like a 'normal out in the open' relationship. The WS's mindset (is this an exit affair, is it a 'for fun only' affair, etc... as a small example) has an impact. The reaction of the BS when the affair is discovered is also a key factor, along with the WS's response to THAT as well.

 

And those stressors have a huge impact to the feelings felt during the formation of the relationship, and also the duration of the courtship vs the long term establishment of the relationship. Most people describe the intensity of those feelings being much higher during the affair than what they felt during 'normal' relationships.

 

I would say that once the AFFAIR is ended...either by divorce or whatever...the relationship can turn into a "normal" relationship like any other can.

 

Again, how the bonds form is one thing.

 

But the actual relationship is more than just those bonds...it's the culmination of the bonds and the stressors and everything else.

[jthorne]

Respectfully, I am wondering what any of this has to do with what is owed the OW at the end of an affair. Clearly Jennie is nowhere near the end of her relationship.

[Owl]

Respectfully, I am wondering what any of this has to do with what is owed the OW at the end of an affair. Clearly Jennie is nowhere near the end of her relationship.

 

Excellent point. Jennie, if you'd like to pursue this discussion further I'd be glad to join a thread to do so.

[Dexter Morgan]

If not' date=' why?[/quote']

 

no, doesn't owe OW anything, or vice versa does a MW owe OM anything.

 

why? because OW/OM have this idea that they don't owe the people they help to betray anything. So because of that attitude, they don't deserve the same.

 

you can't expect to not owe someone else human decency, then turn around and expect it yourself.

[Silly_Girl]

If not, why?

 

If so, what?

 

I only feel able to speak from my own experience.

 

Yes, I believe my xMM owed me an explanation as to why he had changed his mind the day he was going to move out.

 

We had made lots of plans, talked about why he was sure he would go, in fact... it was even me suggesting he take a little longer and was putting unreasonable expectations on himself.

 

The way he did it was pretty disgusting, to turn his phone off and go 'hermit' rather than face it, but even ignoring his method, yes I believe I am (still) owed an explanation as to how what he stated turned out to be so very different from what happened.

 

I was perfectly honest with him as to why I couldn't go on and wouldn't continue the relationship, despite my love for him. I would never have turned my back on him without explaning why.

 

So in short, an explanation is due. But nothing more.

[NoIDidn't]

So in short, an explanation is due. But nothing more.

 

Personally, I don't even believe that explanation is due. The MM is already married, a factor that the OW is usually well aware of when entering, or staying in the EMA.

 

The reason I don't believe the explanation is due is because it leads to more explanations and more explanations and so on, until the same thing has been repeated again and again.

 

The explanation to me is that "he's married", or "it's over". I know we want more than that, but no one is really owed more than a clear, concise end, IMO. An explanation only creates more questions and problems.

[Silly_Girl]

Personally, I don't even believe that explanation is due. The MM is already married, a factor that the OW is usually well aware of when entering, or staying in the EMA.

 

The reason I don't believe the explanation is due is because it leads to more explanations and more explanations and so on, until the same thing has been repeated again and again.

 

The explanation to me is that "he's married", or "it's over". I know we want more than that, but no one is really owed more than a clear, concise end, IMO. An explanation only creates more questions and problems.

 

Well, I didn't even get that until I forced the issue, but if a girlfriend stands me up or someone doesn't make a meeting at work, a reason is always offered. I see it as basic manners, put simply. And to me, the same applies. It may indeed generate more questions; I'm sure some couples could break-up over days, weeks, months, but the MM doesn't necessarily have to enter a dialogue after an initial explanation.

 

I think if he was prepared to say and do what's required get IN to a relationship, and get the benefits from it, he should be man enough to say and do what's required to end it too.

[White Flower]

 

I think if he was prepared to say and do what's required get IN to a relationship, and get the benefits from it, he should be man enough to say and do what's required to end it too.

It is the very least he could do. It doesn't cost much but a few minutes of time.