Does the MM "owe" the OW anything when the A is over?

[Silly_Girl]

Do you believe the OW owes the wife decency?

 

I'm not sure the OW owes the wife anything, or vice versa. No relationship existed between them, no promises were made between them. The question was whether the MM owes the OW anything.

 

For my part I issued an ultimatum because I felt uncomfortable by my own standards, and wouldn't like it (didn't like it) being done to me.

[seren]

OWoman, Thanks for your honesty and time taken to explain.

 

As to the job, well I wrote Strategy and Policy for Local and National Government. Planning, evaluating, research etc, etc managed a large budget and then took a step back to the coal face (so to speak). So, with medical retirement now upon me you very well be in my job. I suspect we are from the same neck of the woods.

[Dexter Morgan]

I'm not sure the OW owes the wife anything, or vice versa.

 

So you don't think an OW owes someone they don't know human decency?

 

Thanks for the clarification. Why does this not surprise me?

[Silly_Girl]

So you don't think an OW owes someone they don't know human decency?

 

 

Certainly no more than the MM owes their wife.

[Dexter Morgan]

Certainly no more than the MM owes their wife.

 

I agree, but thats not what I asked. nice sidestep

 

so you first say the OW doesn't owe the wife anything, now you sort of agree that they do....which is it?

 

(i feel another sidestep coming)

[Silly_Girl]

I think that taking the subject of 'human decency' in this context (OW/MM) is unhelpful. In the case of an affair (which is what the original question was about) relationships exist between W & MM and OW & MM. Those are the relationships where something could be argued to be owed between parties as a result of the interaction between said parties.

 

Taking the human decency line is a different thread, in my view. The question was about circumstances whereby an affair has occurred and ended. By that time it's a little late to debate whether it's 'right' or 'fair' to enter in to such a relationship.

[bananalaffytaffy]

I think that taking the subject of 'human decency' in this context (OW/MM) is unhelpful. In the case of an affair (which is what the original question was about) relationships exist between W & MM and OW & MM. Those are the relationships where something could be argued to be owed between parties as a result of the interaction between said parties.

 

Taking the human decency line is a different thread, in my view. The question was about circumstances whereby an affair has occurred and ended. By that time it's a little late to debate whether it's 'right' or 'fair' to enter in to such a relationship.

Well, that's rich. You claim you are owed something after bonking a man married to someone else, yet you claim you don't owe human decency to the woman you borrowed him from. Wow.

[seren]

Human decency, one would hope, is something that most people employ in their day to day dealing with others. I find it interesting that for some people, human decency only applies when: a. Applied to them achieving their own needs/wants. b: When they feel they have not been afforded human decency. c: When they can detach from, or don't see the person to whom they are showing a lack of HD.

 

I am just not surprised that some good people show a lack of HD when they are getting their needs met, yet the same people, for example, would only buy organic or humane reared meat, or not purchase from sweat shops or from firms that exploit workers, simply because it is human decency. Yet the same good people knowingly engage in relationships which just shatter the world of the BS, affect and hurt families, even by their enabling and use the old, I am not married to BS.

Whatever, just keep telling yourselves that. It helps salve the conscience, but please do not claim HD

[Silly_Girl]

I never said I didn't owe human decency. I said it's not pertinent to the question posed in the thread.

[bananalaffytaffy]

I never said I didn't owe human decency. I said it's not pertinent to the question posed in the thread.

Of course it's not, because you don;t want to discuss it. Just like someone else on here said you were not owed anything from your MM, but it would have been the decent thing to do (but not owed). You didn't agree with that, so it makes sense you wouldn't want to go there.

[Silly_Girl]

For what it's worth, since you're so interested in my opinion on this, I used to feel bloody terrible about his wife and told him many times he wasn't being fair to her (or I) and that if he was serious about me he should tell her, or end it with me. She was one of the main reasons I walked away. I know from MM's point of view he didn't see it as as big a deal because she was seeing her ex-lover still, the one she left MM for and then moved back when it didn't work out. Difference was, he knew that, his wife didn't know about me and that was wrong.

[2sure]

When an affair ends does the MM owe the OW anything?

 

In trying to ask myself that, I flipped it around:

 

When an affair ends, does the OW owe MM anything?

 

Really, I think the best either can ask for or recieve is discretion.

[donnamaybe]

I never said I didn't owe human decency. I said it's not pertinent to the question posed in the thread.

 

It is absolutely pertinent.

 

It's the old "What goes around comes around" theory coming into play.

 

To put it another way, what makes someone feel they are owed ANYTHING stemming from a situation in which they were also being deceitful?

[donnamaybe]

For what it's worth, since you're so interested in my opinion on this, I used to feel bloody terrible about his wife and told him many times he wasn't being fair to her (or I) and that if he was serious about me he should tell her, or end it with me. She was one of the main reasons I walked away. I know from MM's point of view he didn't see it as as big a deal because she was seeing her ex-lover still, the one she left MM for and then moved back when it didn't work out. Difference was, he knew that, his wife didn't know about me and that was wrong.

 

Smart gal.

[Silly_Girl]

It is absolutely pertinent.

 

It's the old "What goes around comes around" theory coming into play.

 

To put it another way, what makes someone feel they are owed ANYTHING stemming from a situation in which they were also being deceitful?

 

But to my mind, that's a question for the 'should the OW and MM have even have entered in to a relationship of any sort?' thread. But at this point (D-day for example) that's not even on the table. The question is "Does the MM 'owe' the OW anything when the A is over". And, once the relevant folks have made the decision to enter in to an affair, and for whatever reason it has ended, I vote Yes to the thread's original question.

[OWoman]

Human decency, one would hope, is something that most people employ in their day to day dealing with others.

 

It's not a concept I use. I prefer to accord people "due respect" - and the amount of respect due is, of course, dependent on the context. I will be polite to the old lady in the queue ahead of me until she demonstrates racist behaviour; at that point my respect for her will evaporate and I will treat her as just another racist. I will interact politely with the cold caller until she ignores my "I'm not intrested, thank you" and carries on with her sales pitch, and then I will hang up. I will politely refuse the religious tract from the Jehova's Witnesses, but if they try to engage me further I will rudely refuse.

 

I am just not surprised that some good people show a lack of HD when they are getting their needs met, yet the same people, for example, would only buy organic or humane reared meat, or not purchase from sweat shops or from firms that exploit workers, simply because it is human decency. Yet the same good people knowingly engage in relationships which just shatter the world of the BS, affect and hurt families, even by their enabling and use the old, I am not married to BS.

Whatever, just keep telling yourselves that. It helps salve the conscience, but please do not claim HD

 

I've never claimed "human decency" as my motivation for doing stuff like that. I buy Fairtrade, organic, free-range etc because those practices are consistent with my principles. I am vehemently opposed to labour exploitation - and capitalism - so would support fair exchange products; I am an animal rights activist, so free-range and humane animal products are a must for me; I am environmentally aware, and support organic and other "green" farming initiatives for the sustainable good of our planet. I counselled survivors of rape and domestic abuse because it is a physical manifestation of the feminism I espouse. I counselled PWAs and HIV+ people because I've lost friends to the disease, and because it allowed me to feel I was doing SOMETHING in the face of such an overwhelming threat.

 

I don't feel a need to subscribe to nebulous values like "human decency" that could mean anything to anyone - I'd rather live a life that's true to my own values, and consistent with what matters to me.

[donnamaybe]

But to my mind, that's a question for the 'should the OW and MM have even have entered in to a relationship of any sort?' thread. But at this point (D-day for example) that's not even on the table. The question is "Does the MM 'owe' the OW anything when the A is over". And, once the relevant folks have made the decision to enter in to an affair, and for whatever reason it has ended, I vote Yes to the thread's original question.

 

What, exactly, do you think is "owed?"

[Silly_Girl]

I replied earlier

I only feel able to speak from my own experience.

 

Yes, I believe my xMM owed me an explanation as to why he had changed his mind the day he was going to move out.

 

We had made lots of plans, talked about why he was sure he would go, in fact... it was even me suggesting he take a little longer and was putting unreasonable expectations on himself.

 

The way he did it was pretty disgusting, to turn his phone off and go 'hermit' rather than face it, but even ignoring his method, yes I believe I am (still) owed an explanation as to how what he stated turned out to be so very different from what happened.

 

I was perfectly honest with him as to why I couldn't go on and wouldn't continue the relationship, despite my love for him. I would never have turned my back on him without explaning why.

 

So in short, an explanation is due. But nothing more.

[donnamaybe]

I replied earlier

 

I know, but what exactly did you expect the guy to say? That he only thought he was in love with you but when push came to shove he really loves his wife after all? Would an AP seriously need that explanation? I would think it would be clear.

 

If he was the type to be lying to you the whole time just for something on the side, would you expect him to admit it? Do you really expect "human decency" from a guy who is screwing around behind his W's back?

 

Silence and withdrawal are explanations. Read between the lines.

[Silly_Girl]

I know, but what exactly did you expect the guy to say? That he only thought he was in love with you but when push came to shove he really loves his wife after all? Would an AP seriously need that explanation? I would think it would be clear.

 

If he was the type to be lying to you the whole time just for something on the side, would you expect him to admit it?

 

Silence and withdrawal are explanations. Read between the lines.

 

He can say whatever he feels like saying, to be fair. But I think something should be said. In my situation he wasn't 'the type to be lying to me all the time for something on the side', but irrespective, I think that MM are given some sort of Get Out of Jail Free card when it comes to the OW, because they're married. No need to clear up the mess they created, no 'human decency' required there, just move on....

 

When I demanded my ex stop being in touch with a certain woman or leave me, he chose me and I demanded he tell her what had happened and why they wouldn't be in touch. It's just something I personally believe, even if I'm the only one who feels that way.

[bananalaffytaffy]

For what it's worth, since you're so interested in my opinion on this, I used to feel bloody terrible about his wife and told him many times he wasn't being fair to her (or I) and that if he was serious about me he should tell her, or end it with me. She was one of the main reasons I walked away. I know from MM's point of view he didn't see it as as big a deal because she was seeing her ex-lover still, the one she left MM for and then moved back when it didn't work out. Difference was, he knew that, his wife didn't know about me and that was wrong.

I'm very confused then. Your original thread http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t233171/ said that it ended because he was supposed to move out, but on the day he was supposed to move out he cut off contact with you.

This doesn't make sense to me. You said he walked away, so you were "owed" an explanation. Now, you're saying that you were the one who walked away. So why are you owed anything?

[bananalaffytaffy]

I've never claimed "human decency" as my motivation for doing stuff like that. I buy Fairtrade, organic, free-range etc because those practices are consistent with my principles. I am vehemently opposed to labour exploitation - and capitalism - so would support fair exchange products; I am an animal rights activist, so free-range and humane animal products are a must for me; I am environmentally aware, and support organic and other "green" farming initiatives for the sustainable good of our planet. I counselled survivors of rape and domestic abuse because it is a physical manifestation of the feminism I espouse. I counselled PWAs and HIV+ people because I've lost friends to the disease, and because it allowed me to feel I was doing SOMETHING in the face of such an overwhelming threat.

 

I don't feel a need to subscribe to nebulous values like "human decency" that could mean anything to anyone - I'd rather live a life that's true to my own values, and consistent with what matters to me.

More confusion here. You claim to be such a humanitarian, yet you had no problem poaching other people's husbands. I guess your humanitarianism only went so far...

 

Totally off-topic, but as a proud capitalist, I have to laugh when those that oppose capitalism conveniently forget that it's most likely capitalist practices that afford them the lifestyle that they currently enjoy. Like Michael Moore's ridiculous movies espousing capitalism, but he makes money to upkeep that gorgeous bod (haha) via capitalism.

[Silly_Girl]

He wanted to stay in touch, in his email, 'couldn't face being without me' etc. I refused. I had set the ultimatum in the first place because I didn't want things to continue, in that way.

 

I believe I was owed an explanation when ALL comms from him up to that point had been certain and definite and him pushing for future plans and where we were going, what we were doing, holidays etc. I want(ed) an explanation for what had happened/changed.

[bananalaffytaffy]

He wanted to stay in touch, in his email, 'couldn't face being without me' etc. I refused. I had set the ultimatum in the first place because I didn't want things to continue, in that way.

 

I believe I was owed an explanation when ALL comms from him up to that point had been certain and definite and him pushing for future plans and where we were going, what we were doing, holidays etc. I want(ed) an explanation for what had happened/changed.

Thanks for clarifying.

[bananalaffytaffy]

Totally off-topic, but as a proud capitalist, I have to laugh when those that oppose capitalism conveniently forget that it's most likely capitalist practices that afford them the lifestyle that they currently enjoy. Like Michael Moore's ridiculous movies espousing capitalism, but he makes money to upkeep that gorgeous bod (haha) via capitalism.

Sorry wrong word here. I meant to say espousing the evils of capitalism, bashing capitalism. Must proof read, must proof read, must proof read...

No worry, off-topic anyway.

Sorry for the threadjack OP.