Does the MM "owe" the OW anything when the A is over?

[wheelwright]

I can understand the natural need to ask why. What I can't understand is practically demanding an answer and not being able to accept silence.

 

The OW in my case felt she was owed "closure". My H recommended a therapist and told her he was not going to be able to speak to her about the end of the A or what happened afterwards anymore.

 

For one, who wants to hear from their exOW about the BF that she betrayed, and how he and his family are reacting to her actions. For two, whatever was going on in our home was distinctly none of her business.

 

Its just been my experience (as a OW AND as a W) that the questions always go too far and way beyond explanation to practically demands for a do-over with a more favorable result.

 

There is nothing more painful in personal relationships than unexplained silence/blanking. Imagine if your H did this to you. Would it not be more painful than an A?

 

It happens in schools as a hideous form of bullying. Sometimes the people on the end of it deserve it. Sometimes not. Sometimes perhaps they deserve compassion like most people do.

 

I agree that drawn out endings are inappropriate here, but a decent ending needn't be long and tedious.

 

I realise that we are meant to read into the silence that the WS and his/her BS are henceforth disregarding the xAP.

 

I understand what you said about the issues now in the M are none of the xAP's business, but this could be made clear in a kind way.

 

I also understand that the feelings surrounding the decision about how to treat xAP after DDay are rather less than geared towards compassion for others.

 

I also think these things depend very much on whether love was declared between APs. If it was, then something is owed. What is owed is closure (silence doesn't bring this to the xAP, though the BS may think it should) and one single conversation that tells the xAP that this is their decision and they are not acting under duress.

 

It's very simple.

 

If love was involved, this kind of closure brings the peace to move on.

 

But things are not easy for anyone after DDay. I have compassion for a BS who feels things should be this way. Less so for a WS who feels they should or should agree to blanking an AP they once loved or told they loved. I would never have agreed to this after DDay with my H.

[fooled once]

So do people demand an explanation or 'something' when it is just 2 single people dating? If it ends, doesn't it just end?

 

What is with the self entitlement people feel they deserve? Is it the younger generation that feels this so badly vs the older generation who just shrugs and moves on?

[wheelwright]

So do people demand an explanation or 'something' when it is just 2 single people dating? If it ends, doesn't it just end?

 

What is with the self entitlement people feel they deserve? Is it the younger generation that feels this so badly vs the older generation who just shrugs and moves on?

 

Is there something wrong with feeling entitled to certain basic things? Despite your mistakes?

 

I would want an explanation if a single guy moved on. Hell yes. Or just a 'can't do this anymore' type thing. Something to close the door on the R with consideration.

[silktricks]

.

 

I agree that drawn out endings are inappropriate here, but a decent ending needn't be long and tedious.

 

I realise that we are meant to read into the silence that the WS and his/her BS are henceforth disregarding the xAP.

 

I also understand that the feelings surrounding the decision about how to treat xAP after DDay are rather less than geared towards compassion for others.

 

I also think these things depend very much on whether love was declared between APs. If it was, then something is owed. What is owed is closure (silence doesn't bring this to the xAP, though the BS may think it should) and one single conversation that tells the xAP that this is their decision and they are not acting under duress.

 

It's very simple.

 

If love was involved, this kind of closure brings the peace to move on.

 

But things are not easy for anyone after DDay. I have compassion for a BS who feels things should be this way. Less so for a WS who feels they should or should agree to blanking an AP they once loved or told they loved. I would never have agreed to this after DDay with my H.

I doubt that many WS don't contact the OW to say it's over, and agree that it seems more humane to make that statement, however... Why would an OW think they were dumped, never to be heard from again - and that this would be "under duress"? You are talking about a person who was able to hide an entire relationship from the BS, and now you don't believe that he couldn't made a single phone call IF HE REALLY WANTED TO ??

 

Come on now, there is no way that kind of "duress" could be enforced. If he wanted to make a phone call - then he would have. He simply didn't want to. Like everything else, he avoided conflict by simply not calling.

 

As everyone else has said, if this wasn't a married guy, there'd be no idea of "duress". It'd just be that the guy moved on and left - and didn't truly care enough to say enough to say Good-bye regardless of what he may have previously led you to believe. (Not being personal with the "you" just generic)

[Silly_Girl]

I don't differentiate between single/attached individuals.

 

So do people demand an explanation or 'something' when it is just 2 single people dating? If it ends, doesn't it just end?

 

Isn't there normally something though? Not a 'see you tomorrow' and tomorrow never comes...? There's generally an event or a conversation or something that signifies to both that the relationship between them has reached a conclusion.

 

What is with the self entitlement people feel they deserve? Is it the younger generation that feels this so badly vs the older generation who just shrugs and moves on?

 

Self entitlement? Interesting. In my situation we had agreed plans for 3 weekends away, work in the garden, a holiday next year, additional pets, and all sorts of other things. We'd talked extensively about our relationship, how/why we perceived it as different from others we'd experienced, and both cried when I was leaving for a long trip overseas as it hurt so bloody much. Now to someone else (older?) maybe it is natural for that to be there today, and gone tomorrow without - literally - a word. That's not how relationships have traditionally been conducted in my life, or for my parents either.

[wheelwright]

I doubt that many WS don't contact the OW to say it's over, and agree that it seems more humane to make that statement, however... Why would an OW think they were dumped, never to be heard from again - and that this would be "under duress"? You are talking about a person who was able to hide an entire relationship from the BS, and now you don't believe that he couldn't made a single phone call IF HE REALLY WANTED TO ??

 

Come on now, there is no way that kind of "duress" could be enforced. If he wanted to make a phone call - then he would have. He simply didn't want to. Like everything else, he avoided conflict by simply not calling.

 

As everyone else has said, if this wasn't a married guy, there'd be no idea of "duress". It'd just be that the guy moved on and left - and didn't truly care enough to say enough to say Good-bye regardless of what he may have previously led you to believe. (Not being personal with the "you" just generic)

 

I think all this is fair comment. That's how I see it too.

 

But duress can be self enforced via the influence of others. Still his choice. That's my point really. Not a great choice with or without duress. Pretty unkind.

 

And who are these people who think it's OK to dump a single person without talking to them about it? If love has been openly discussed? Without an A in the picture, this is just psychopathy.

[skywriter]

No, I didn't and don't feel that the MM owes me anything.

 

My feeling is that I do and did owe myself more than what I got out of the A.

[bentnotbroken]

Some of us live in a world which is very black and white, others of us do not and things can present themselves in shades of grey. And all of us, without question, make mistakes at some point.

 

 

Shades of gray are created by us. A mistake is accidental...to maintain an affair, there is nothing accidental about the lies and the deceit.

[silktricks]

And who are these people who think it's OK to dump a single person without talking to them about it? If love has been openly discussed? Without an A in the picture, this is just psychopathy.

Just to be clear - I don't think it's OK - not in any context, however, it does happen and not that terribly infrequently from what I understand from some of my single friends. I believe that most people are saying, though, that they feel there is a double standard and that in their opinion more is expected from a married partner (married to someone else, partner) than would be expected from a single one...

 

(Also, from what I've seen a lot of guys will throw out the "love" word pretty easily if they think that will help them get what they want.... )

[jj33]

Fooled two single people in relationships ask for explanations all the time. How else did they come up with the "its not you its me" or the "post it" break up from Sex in the City. Some people dont give explanations and the other person who may have thought the relationship was great is left wanting an explanation. Thats also why some people chicken out of breaking up and try to get the other person to break up with them, they dont want to go through the explanation.

 

In many ways As are not that different from relationships between single people. I know that is difficult for a lot of posters to believe but at least in my experience it was not very different from dating a single man.

Edited June 15, 2010 by jj33

[2sunny]

even if and when an explanation is given - there's no way of knowing if it's the truth... it may also be a half truth or some form of omission... usually the dumper wants to get away from the uncomfortable situation as quickly as possible without giving it too much energy or time... with the goal to make it as painless as possible. this alone isn't realistic. it may also be the reason for no closure and little info - some MM/MW are like most dumpers in the world - they don't want to face the breakup and it's easier or them to just go silent instead. essentially being a coward.

[White Flower]

even if and when an explanation is given - there's no way of knowing if it's the truth... it may also be a half truth or some form of omission... usually the dumper wants to get away from the uncomfortable situation as quickly as possible without giving it too much energy or time... with the goal to make it as painless as possible. this alone isn't realistic. it may also be the reason for no closure and little info - some MM/MW are like most dumpers in the world - they don't want to face the breakup and it's easier or them to just go silent instead. essentially being a coward.

Your post makes me wonder how often it is that the MP really ends it. I think most often it is the OP who has put up with too little too late. In that case, does the OP owe the MP anything when there is a breakup?

 

I'm pretty sure the answer is, 'just look at all my emails, it's all in your inbox'.

[NoIDidn't]

There is nothing more painful in personal relationships than unexplained silence/blanking. Imagine if your H did this to you. Would it not be more painful than an A?

 

It happens in schools as a hideous form of bullying. Sometimes the people on the end of it deserve it. Sometimes not. Sometimes perhaps they deserve compassion like most people do.

 

I agree that drawn out endings are inappropriate here, but a decent ending needn't be long and tedious.

 

I realise that we are meant to read into the silence that the WS and his/her BS are henceforth disregarding the xAP.

 

I understand what you said about the issues now in the M are none of the xAP's business, but this could be made clear in a kind way.

 

I also understand that the feelings surrounding the decision about how to treat xAP after DDay are rather less than geared towards compassion for others.

 

I also think these things depend very much on whether love was declared between APs. If it was, then something is owed. What is owed is closure (silence doesn't bring this to the xAP, though the BS may think it should) and one single conversation that tells the xAP that this is their decision and they are not acting under duress.

 

It's very simple.

 

If love was involved, this kind of closure brings the peace to move on.

 

But things are not easy for anyone after DDay. I have compassion for a BS who feels things should be this way. Less so for a WS who feels they should or should agree to blanking an AP they once loved or told they loved. I would never have agreed to this after DDay with my H.

 

I am speaking personally here. I would never have condoned my H just dropping his OW without a word edgewise. And he wouldn't have either. I told him he could speak with her when it was time to end it for good. He'd made a decision to end the A, that I knew for certain. The M? TBD. By both of us. My only requirement was that after he ended it that they not speak about it anymore. They still had to speak, they worked together.

 

I think my posts about not needing an explanation are seen as me advocating the MM never even telling the OW that the end has come. That's not the case, at all. I think they should have one last "end" conversation. But I don't think it needs to turn into "one more question" or the "and another thing" scenario.

 

That's all I'm saying.

 

It pissed me off to no end that he even had to speak with her again to end it, but he's a decent guy and I've been an OW before so I wouldn't have wanted her just up and abandoned.

 

My complaint is about the contact after that "Final" conversation. I see no need for it. But some OWs seem to think that they now have unlimited access to the man even when the A is clearly over. I don't think its necessarily because they want to restart the A either. I just don't think that another holds the key to my closure.

[wheelwright]

I am speaking personally here. I would never have condoned my H just dropping his OW without a word edgewise. And he wouldn't have either. I told him he could speak with her when it was time to end it for good. He'd made a decision to end the A, that I knew for certain. The M? TBD. By both of us. My only requirement was that after he ended it that they not speak about it anymore. They still had to speak, they worked together.

 

I think my posts about not needing an explanation are seen as me advocating the MM never even telling the OW that the end has come. That's not the case, at all. I think they should have one last "end" conversation. But I don't think it needs to turn into "one more question" or the "and another thing" scenario.

 

That's all I'm saying.

 

It pissed me off to no end that he even had to speak with her again to end it, but he's a decent guy and I've been an OW before so I wouldn't have wanted her just up and abandoned.

 

My complaint is about the contact after that "Final" conversation. I see no need for it. But some OWs seem to think that they now have unlimited access to the man even when the A is clearly over. I don't think its necessarily because they want to restart the A either. I just don't think that another holds the key to my closure.

 

This clears up your position for me. I think we agree!

[fooled once]

Maybe the confusion is in the "explanation".

 

Isn't silence an explanation?

 

Or is the need to drag it out, conversation after conversation, accusation after accusation ("you told me we had a future", "you told me you loved me", "we made plans to xxyyzz".).

 

I have seen on here numerous times the MM contacts the OW after DDay saying 'Its over - I am staying married/working on my marriage" whatever the excuse they give.

 

Is that considered an explanation?

 

Because when I read that on here, it is usually followed by days of crying and the AP insisting she needs closure, she needs to understand how the cheater could lie to HER.

 

This is where I think the explanation has already been given - he chose his marriage.

 

And what does claiming love have to do with it?

If love has been openly discussed?

 

He discussed love with his wife too Yet he cheated. He told lies, yet the AP is amazed that he lied to her. THIS I don't get. Why do so many think that the AP doesn't lie to them when he admittedly lies to his wife (please don't answer this question - it has been discussed adnauseum on here).

[silktricks]

I have seen on here numerous times the MM contacts the OW after DDay saying 'Its over - I am staying married/working on my marriage" whatever the excuse they give.

 

Is that considered an explanation?

This IMO is all that is required. After that there should be complete silence from the fWS.

 

Because when I read that on here, it is usually followed by days of crying and the AP insisting she needs closure, she needs to understand how the cheater could lie to HER.

 

This is where I think the explanation has already been given - he chose his marriage.

I agree.

 

And what does claiming love have to do with it?

This is what I was trying to say as well.

 

He should give an explanation. i.e. "I've decided to stay married...", but that's enough, and all that would be expected (or asked) of a single person.

Anything beyond that is not only not required, but not in the best interest of anyone - including the OW - as she now must move on with her life.

 

I don't think he should just disappear with dead silence. That is, I believe, unnecessary and cruel.

[Dexter Morgan]

Some of us live in a world which is very black and white

 

it takes a black and white world to know upfront that he was married?...uh.....ok:confused:

 

 

others of us do not and things can present themselves in shades of grey. And all of us, without question, make mistakes at some point.

 

messing around with someone elses spouse, and cheating on a spouse isn't a mistake.

 

a mistake is leaving the toilet seat up in a female dominant home

 

a mistake is forgetting to take the trash to the road the morning the garbage truck comes by

 

a mistake is mistake is making an error in your checkbook.

 

cheating and sleeping with someone elses spouse is done because the parties involved WANT to do it. its not a mistake.

[Silly_Girl]

I was married and living with my husband, we had separated and our neighbours and some friends didn't know. I was seeing someone else. It happens. It's not always black and white.

[Dexter Morgan]

I was married and living with my husband, we had separated and our neighbours and some friends didn't know. I was seeing someone else. It happens. It's not always black and white.

 

I'll say it again since you like to attempt diversion.

 

you knew your MM was married. that was the upfront score. whether the world is black or white has nothing to do with knowing the facts. however, either he was married, or he was not, which IS black and white.

[Silly_Girl]

you knew your MM was married. that was the upfront score. whether the world is black or white has nothing to do with knowing the facts. however, either he was married, or he was not, which IS black and white.

 

He was married. I never said he wasn't and nor did he. Doesn't mean I would have no expectations of him, during the relationship or at the end. If he was a big enough boy to get in to that situation, he ought to have been a big enough boy to get him out of it. Bit late to cite the marriage as an excuse for his behaviour at that point, in my opinion.

 

"Sorry I disappeared without a trace. I know for a long time we were planning to be together, I told my wife I was leaving her and told you I loved you like I'd never loved anyone and I had never realised what I was missing in life, but I'm married so that's that. Tough ****. Bye then". Not good enough for me.

 

You and I are different in how we view things. Which is fine.

[MorningCoffee]

He was married. I never said he wasn't and nor did he. Doesn't mean I would have no expectations of him, during the relationship or at the end. If he was a big enough boy to get in to that situation, he ought to have been a big enough boy to get him out of it. Bit late to cite the marriage as an excuse for his behaviour at that point, in my opinion.

 

"Sorry I disappeared without a trace. I know for a long time we were planning to be together, I told my wife I was leaving her and told you I loved you like I'd never loved anyone and I had never realised what I was missing in life, but I'm married so that's that. Tough ****. Bye then". Not good enough for me.

 

You and I are different in how we view things. Which is fine.

 

Spot on, S_G. Completely agree.

[translucentsoul]

No Vow of Secrecy here by the way. The MM knows that I might at any time disclose the extramarital relationship to his wife. I am not bound by any promise not to.

 

mmm....I have to disagree here. I am in a "vow of secrecy" based on not inflicting pain. That is very individual to each set of partners, of course.

It is his place to say something.

I asked to be told before he did so, if he ever did. He agreed.

 

I "owe" karmically to not cause her more pain.

 

I kind of wonder why the OW/OM would tell the spouse/life partner. But that is another thread.

 

I do think ex-extras should treat each other with respect and not carry on like teenagers in a jealous snit.

Perhaps I'm lucky in that our friendship survived being a fling?

[Dexter Morgan]

He was married. I never said he wasn't and nor did he. Doesn't mean I would have no expectations of him, during the relationship or at the end. If he was a big enough boy to get in to that situation, he ought to have been a big enough boy to get him out of it.

 

well said. same can apply to you.

 

if you were a big enough girl to bed down someone elses husband, a cheater, then you are a big enough girl to walk away from it.

 

 

 

Bit late to cite the marriage as an excuse for his behaviour at that point, in my opinion.

 

true that, he is a cheating bastard, that is for sure.

 

but again, you knew the score, he was married. he is cheating on his wife, that makes him a liar by default. and your role in all of this is not mitigated in the least. you sleep with someone elses husband, in my opinion, you lose the right to whine about the fallout.

 

 

"Sorry I disappeared without a trace. I know for a long time we were planning to be together, I told my wife I was leaving her and told you I loved you like I'd never loved anyone and I had never realised what I was missing in life, but I'm married so that's that. Tough ****. Bye then". Not good enough for me.

 

sorry, but he was married and you knew it. thats just tough toenails.

 

yes, he is a bastard, his wife needs to do a Lorena Bobbit on him(just kidding;))

 

but you knew he was married. you made your bed. The only person in this situation that is truly the victim is his wife.

[Silly_Girl]

I'll never see why one/both parties being married means all usual and basic expectations that exist in other situations are deemed non-existent within that specific relationship (the affair).

 

But you're right about the only victim being the spouse.

[VelveteenBunny]

That is my opinion too. Just like in any relationship, no one owes anyone anything when it is over. Love is always given freely, not owed, even in a marriage.

 

Who is talking about owing love? They said owe "anything"- and I'd say yes. They owe them an explanation- an honest one. Some chance for the closest thing to closure one can get. And a goodbye so they aren't waiting and wondering what is going on. Having had a father that left without an explanation or goodbye, I think it is immensely selfish and the act of a supreme coward to do less. It isn't about love- it's about basic respect and taking responsibility.