Does the MM "owe" the OW anything when the A is over?

[bentnotbroken]

Who is talking about owing love? They said owe "anything"- and I'd say yes. They owe them an explanation- an honest one. Some chance for the closest thing to closure one can get. And a goodbye so they aren't waiting and wondering what is going on. Having had a father that left without an explanation or goodbye, I think it is immensely selfish and the act of a supreme coward to do less. It isn't about love- it's about basic respect and taking responsibility.

 

 

Where does a WS get that "basic" respect and reponsibility from? They don't show it to the BS by cheating, why is the AP owed more than the family?

[NoIDidn't]

So, honesty is requested, almost expected. Why then weren't the MM/MW or OW/OM "honest" about the affair? Why should an act conceived in lies and deception be owed the respectful action when it ends?

 

This post reconfirms my belief that people "choose" between right and wrong. If you choose wrong, then expect "all" that comes with that decision.

 

I do agree with you, but I think that returning to honesty and decency is a way for a WS to reclaim their integrity - having sacrificed it in the A.

 

I see nothing wrong with a final, short, goodbye. The "I'm going to work on my marriage and will not be contacting you again" is more than enough to me. The problem for me is that the OW think they are owed anything beyond that. They are not. The rest of that closure should certainly come from within themselves, IMO.

[Silly_Girl]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the relationship shouldn't exist in the first place doesn't mean it should not be as respectful and dignified as possible.

[NoIDidn't]

Two wrongs don't make a right. Just because the relationship shouldn't exist in the first place doesn't mean it should not be as respectful and dignified as possible.

 

So what's undignified about "I'm staying married and will not be contacting you again, and would like for you not to contact me again"?

 

Its respectful, and its short and to the point. What else needs to be said?

 

What? I know I said we would one day do all of these wonderful things, but I've changed my mind because I'm staying married? Or, thanks for the memories, but I'm staying married? Or, I'm sorry for the pain and confusion that my pain and confusion caused you, but I've decided to truly commit to making my marriage work?

 

All of these say "I'm staying married". When a MM ends the affair to work on his M (after a d-day, or without one), the ending is about the marriage - not about what the OW wants to hear him validate.

 

Seems to me like you are expecting validation of feelings that aren't really relevant to his decision. A MM ending an affair is not trying to have that past thrown in his face when he's ending it. It lacks dignity on the part of the OW to keep banging on for more and more explanations IMO.

[White Flower]

So, honesty is requested, almost expected. Why then weren't the MM/MW or OW/OM "honest" about the affair? Why should an act conceived in lies and deception be owed the respectful action when it ends?

 

This post reconfirms my belief that people "choose" between right and wrong. If you choose wrong, then expect "all" that comes with that decision.

People change and evolve. He may not have been honest about the beginning, but if he confesses and feels truly remorseful he WILL be honest afterward, hopefully. He owes everyone the truth, especially if he has learned and grown from the experience.

[wheelwright]

Sorry again, I disagree. The cheating spouse has shown they have no morals/character by their cheating. The OW/OM definately doesn't deserve any respect and there is NOTHING about an affair that is dignified.

 

There are more ethical questions raised by this post than answered. Perhaps the intention?

 

A) Has the WS shown they have no morals/character? Do they kill kittens for fun? I suspect their moral compass is more complex than this sweeping comment. It may not be ideal behaviour, but that does not mean it is amoral. I wonder do you think the WS amoral or immoral? If morality is to find the greatest love then an A may do this. If it is to hurt the fewest people then this also may be true under certain circumstances. If it is to do as you would be done by, then also true (some BSs are self-proclaimed head in sand types). If it is to treat people as general society deems correct, you are also on sticky ground - 'society' is not a unified voice.

 

Despite these issues, I believe that most As are wrong, because they treat the BS as object rather than subject. The A may have quite a reasonable morality in itself, and in fact I find this aspect of the A is quite difficult. But APs are weighing up other considerations of moral value. This is why it is not black and white.

 

B) The OW/OM doesn't deserve any respect. Hmm. The moral value of this statement strikes me as self-defeating. The BS takes back a WS, presumably able to respect them, otherwise it would be quite odd. What (morally speaking rather than self-oriented) reason would there be for this if the OW/OM were not also due respect? Would you equate respect for others with self-interest? If so, I would have questions about the foundations of your morality. Perhaps Machiavellian? Fine if you own up to it.

 

C) There is nothing about an A that is dignified. This is the most persuasive of your comments. Well, at least it's totally subjective, so can't really be argued against. However, others could hold equally subjective stances to the opposite. We have to ask 'dignifies who or what?' Society? The AP? The BS? I agree that from most of these perspectives there is much that is undignified about an A. In our current cultural set up. But - being loved brings a special dignity to an AP who has been neglected in their M. Learning through an A that you have a right to be loved is also a dignified position. It's not especially important to me morally speaking that this is learnt at the expense of others. The lesson here is more important than the fall out.

[bentnotbroken]

WW, you can twist it until it makes what you need to believe...believable. But lying to a spouse about endangering the lives is not moral in any realm.

[NoIDidn't]

WW, you can twist it until it makes what you need to believe...believable. But lying to a spouse about endangering the lives is not moral in any realm.

 

And while the lesson learned in an A may be huge, the ends never justifies the means.

 

It is with much regret that my H learned this lesson in his EA.

 

Nothing dignified about it.

 

Life? Yes. A part of life that not all can escape. But there are many indignities that we suffer, chosen or not. Saying its not dignified is in no way a bash or dig to anyone that's been in an affair or suffered after the revelation of one.

[wheelwright]

WW, you can twist it until it makes what you need to believe...believable. But lying to a spouse about endangering the lives is not moral in any realm.

 

Changing lives is not the same as endangering lives. There is a whole other moral argument about change vs status quo being more important, involving duty, transformation and responsibilty which I will be happy to discuss with you if you show an inclination. Perhaps another thread?

[wheelwright]

WW, you can twist it until it makes what you need to believe...believable. But lying to a spouse about endangering the lives is not moral in any realm.

 

There is no twisting here. I held these beliefs pre-A.

 

This post makes me think you are willing to judge morality but not actually consider it.

 

Does this mean you are acting on gut instinct? Or the Bible only?

[bentnotbroken]

There is no twisting here. I held these beliefs pre-A.

 

This post makes me think you are willing to judge morality but not actually consider it.

 

Does this mean you are acting on gut instinct? Or the Bible only?

 

 

Gut or bible, when having sex with someone other than your partner you are potentially endangering their lives. Since no condom is 100% and being tested once or twice doesn't mean that a person will always be disease free. So if you believe that it is okay to do that to someone without their knowledge or consent, because as we always see quoted here "never say never" there is a very real possibility of passing something along to someone else.

 

Every person you have every slept with and every person your MM has slept with is who his BS has slept with. Call it whatever you want. If you were on the receiving end of something that can't be gotten rid of with penicillian, something that could potentially take you away from your children, family, friends...I dare say your tune would shift as well.

 

So think what you need to. I have seen it too many times for it not to be a very real action....someone's live permanetly enhanced:sick:.

[bentnotbroken]

Changing lives is not the same as endangering lives. There is a whole other moral argument about change vs status quo being more important, involving duty, transformation and responsibilty which I will be happy to discuss with you if you show an inclination. Perhaps another thread?

 

 

Shouldn't that change involve ALL the persons involved knowledge, decisions and consent for their lives to be changed? Or is some arbituary thing decided by the two people who have all the info? And if it does not involve all, isn't it endangering lives?

[wheelwright]

Gut or bible, when having sex with someone other than your partner you are potentially endangering their lives. Since no condom is 100% and being tested once or twice doesn't mean that a person will always be disease free. So if you believe that it is okay to do that to someone without their knowledge or consent, because as we always see quoted here "never say never" there is a very real possibility of passing something along to someone else.

 

Every person you have every slept with and every person your MM has slept with is who his BS has slept with. Call it whatever you want. If you were on the receiving end of something that can't be gotten rid of with penicillian, something that could potentially take you away from your children, family, friends...I dare say your tune would shift as well.

 

So think what you need to. I have seen it too many times for it not to be a very real action....someone's live permanetly enhanced:sick:.

 

I thought about this prior to my A. I had been tested during my M, and then prior to my A I got myself tested before I slept with him just in case my H had been unfaithful, and given me something without me knowing. I loved my xMOM, and that is why I went to these lengths.

 

Not 100%, but pretty dedicated, wouldn't you say?

 

I look back and think I may have been slightly mad, but after what you said, I guess I was right.

 

I always assumed xMOM was clean, but anyway didn't have penetretive sex with my H during A.

 

Does this meet your standards?

[bentnotbroken]

I thought about this prior to my A. I had been tested during my M, and then prior to my A I got myself tested before I slept with him just in case my H had been unfaithful, and given me something without me knowing. I loved my xMOM, and that is why I went to these lengths.

 

Not 100%, but pretty dedicated, wouldn't you say?

 

I look back and think I may have been slightly mad, but after what you said, I guess I was right.

 

I always assumed xMOM was clean, but anyway didn't have penetretive sex with my H during A.

 

Does this meet your standards?

 

Unless it is 100%....no.

[wheelwright]

Shouldn't that change involve ALL the persons involved knowledge, decisions and consent for their lives to be changed? Or is some arbituary thing decided by the two people who have all the info? And if it does not involve all, isn't it endangering lives?

 

Really, I think I did OK here. I had been monogamous for years and got tested prior to A. That's as much as anyone can ask.

 

As to the second point, I already discussed that above in answer to CSC's post.

 

I think it's wrong to make decisions about another's life in this way. I think sometimes this moral stance, which is REALLY important (perhaps the crux of human morality), is thrown into question by other considerations which also hold moral sway.

 

As someone involved in moral questioning and not just gut reactions, I wonder can you think of any situations when an A may be the Best route? I understand you are religious. Can you conceive of this being a positive part of someone's moral development?

[NoIDidn't]

As someone involved in moral questioning and not just gut reactions, I wonder can you think of any situations when an A may be the Best route? I understand you are religious. Can you conceive of this being a positive part of someone's moral development?

 

If its learning what "not" to do, and learning to never do it again - maybe.

 

Otherwise, an A by itself has no moral value.

 

I do understand that some things we have to learn the hard way, but this way involves so many others without their consent. That's what makes an A so immoral to many/most that disagree with them.

[wheelwright]

If its learning what "not" to do, and learning to never do it again - maybe.

 

Otherwise, an A by itself has no moral value.

 

I do understand that some things we have to learn the hard way, but this way involves so many others without their consent. That's what makes an A so immoral to many/most that disagree with them.

 

It may also be learning 'what to do'. like to give love honestly and clearly as many APs do and then go on to do in their Ms.

 

I agree it is also learning never to do it again.

[bentnotbroken]

Really, I think I did OK here. I had been monogamous for years and got tested prior to A. That's as much as anyone can ask.

 

As to the second point, I already discussed that above in answer to CSC's post.

 

I think it's wrong to make decisions about another's life in this way. I think sometimes this moral stance, which is REALLY important (perhaps the crux of human morality), is thrown into question by other considerations which also hold moral sway.

 

As someone involved in moral questioning and not just gut reactions, I wonder can you think of any situations when an A may be the Best route? I understand you are religious. Can you conceive of this being a positive part of someone's moral development?

 

 

I would dare say a BS who had no knowledge of you or who you have been with, nor of the A, would ask for more. They probably could ask for the spouse to be faithful or divorce if they knew of course. Choosing to do something to hurt another intentionally or that jeapordizes the emotional and physical well being of another is never the best route to anything. But I do believe with true repentence and forgiveness the Lord can take any negative sitution and growth can come from it.

 

Just as former gang members counsel youngsters to stay away from the ills of the life they had already sampled. Same as a recovering alcoholic or drug addict can counsel against the pitfalls of drug use. And no I am not religious. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ the son of the Living God. Not man made religions.

[wheelwright]

I would dare say a BS who had no knowledge of you or who you have been with, nor of the A, would ask for more. They probably could ask for the spouse to be faithful or divorce if they knew of course. Choosing to do something to hurt another intentionally or that jeapordizes the emotional and physical well being of another is never the best route to anything. But I do believe with true repentence and forgiveness the Lord can take any negative sitution and growth can come from it.

 

Just as former gang members counsel youngsters to stay away from the ills of the life they had already sampled. Same as a recovering alcoholic or drug addict can counsel against the pitfalls of drug use. And no I am not religious. I am a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ the son of the Living God. Not man made religions.

 

Agree with bold. But both parties told me the M was dead pre-A. And I got tested. If they felt the M was dead, perhaps I in fact helped the M? Wasn't my intention ( and here we have another whole realm of morality, bound up in the fact that our intentions for the well-being of others isn't so much part and parcel of a well-thought out morality). I intended to live a love he and I felt, and to help all admit the Ms were dead, as all ( bar my H) had declared.

 

What about these lies? Apparently she did love her H (my xMOM). I feel bad about that. I believed her when she vehemantly told me she didn't. Did she gaslight me?

 

Did he when he said his M was dead?

 

Because a dead M is not one I could respect.

[bentnotbroken]

Agree with bold. But both parties told me the M was dead pre-A. And I got tested. If they felt the M was dead, perhaps I in fact helped the M? Wasn't my intention ( and here we have another whole realm of morality, bound up in the fact that our intentions for the well-being of others isn't so much part and parcel of a well-thought out morality). I intended to live a love he and I felt, and to help all admit the Ms were dead, as all ( bar my H) had declared.

 

What about these lies? Apparently she did love her H (my xMOM). I feel bad about that. I believed her when she vehemantly told me she didn't. Did she gaslight me?

Did he when he said his M was dead?

 

Because a dead M is not one I could respect.

 

Since I know neither of them, what they think and you are the only one posting for everyone in the situation, then the only thing I can say to you(without malice) ...if you hadn't been in that situation, neither could have lied to you, deceived you or otherwise gaslight you. And no, I don't believe it when Lizzie says or now...that you in some way helped thier marriage.

 

I view your intent and his a selfish to the point of abuse. I don't think it was your job to help a married couple realize anything about their marriage unless you were privy to every detail at every moment and/or a certified professional who has been trained to guide people to that realization.

Edited June 20, 2010 by bentnotbroken

[lolapalooza]

What about these lies? Apparently she did love her H (my xMOM). I feel bad about that. I believed her when she vehemantly told me she didn't. Did she gaslight me?

 

Did he when he said his M was dead?

 

Because a dead M is not one I could respect.

Whether you could respect their M or not, it was not your M to disrespect, it was THEIR M. When she told you what she did, did she know you either wanted to or already were schlepping her husband? I doubt it.

 

You can twist things all you want. You had an affair and you were wrong. MM had an affair and he was wrong. But if it makes you feel better to twist things around to your advantage... Whatever. I think you do yourself a disservice denying the truth.

[Lizzie60]

I have not read the thread.. just the OP.. but my answer is NO..

 

No one owes anyone anything.. both people knows it's an A .. and it has no 'happy ever after' ending.. so.. NO!

 

Just like 2 people dating.. when it's over.. it's over..

[White Flower]

OK, if it's so ridiculous to expect MP to give an honest reason for ending the A, being that they're not an honest person and all, then why shoud BS expect MP to be honest with them, the BS? Isn't the MP a proven dishonest person by default?

[Silly_Girl]

...No one owes anyone anything.. both people knows it's an A .. and it has no 'happy ever after' ending.. so.. NO!

 

...

 

What if that's not the case?

[VelveteenBunny]

Where does a WS get that "basic" respect and reponsibility from? They don't show it to the BS by cheating, why is the AP owed more than the family?

 

First of all, you are assuming I am saying they don't owe the family honesty. I never said that. Honesty is generally a good thing in any intimate relationship, but obviously, in most A's that's not happening. With that said, however, I was not talking about honesty in general. I was talking specifically about an honest explanation for why the are leaving AND a goodbye. No person should just dissapear on someone they are close to, if they can help it, without explaning honestly WHY, and letting them know they are leaving and won't be back. If the MP left the BS, I would say they owed them a goodbye and an honest explanation. I think the goodbye is the most important in both situations, but honest matters also. The MP would prob. give the BS the goodbye at least, if they left, even if only so they can get a divorce.