Does the MM "owe" the OW anything when the A is over?

[pureinheart]

And if you are referring instead to the common decency I mentioned: I do not believe (personally) that anyone should ever under any circumstances attempt to do wrong to another person. The fact is that these two people were supposedly "in love" - for good or bad, that is/was the circumstance. I watched a situation play out at my place of work where the man - who felt he was so much more valuable to the company than the woman was - in effect said that if she remained, he would leave. He tried his best to get her fired, and even threatened to sue the company because he wasn't "warned" about her (never mind the fact that he had affairs with others before her....). (I was the manager of the dept where both worked, so am quite aware of the situation.)

 

He's gone now. She is still there. But, that's another story. IMO (and only MO ), it is common decency to leave the livelihood of anyone alone. You may detest the person (as we all know, love can so easily turn to hate), but that doesn't mean you have any right to screw with their ability to live. If you are stupid enough to play where you work - then you also need to be an adult with the consequences of playtime.

 

Hi ST,

 

You would be cool to work for for the simple fact you are not unbecoming and see things the way they are. I am sorry this situation happened, but glad to see your maturity in the matter. I was fortunate to have some of the best management that ever lived...so I know it when I see it...

[jennie-jennie]

Then why carry on the R period? You've already stated that he doesn't meet your expectations, yet you don't mind sleeping with him.

 

Why would you even believe that you are his primary love interest? You've already admitted it's a LDR and you cannot prove anything he says. My bet is he's lying to you at least as MUCH as he's lying to her.

 

Open your eyes and stop excusing his behavior. It won't help you get what you want.

 

GEL

 

Huh? Where did I state he doesn't meet my expectations? He has never ever told me a lie, and I believe I know that better than you do. What is your proof of the opposite?

 

He has 5 minor kids and 1 recently turned adult. Is that reason enough for you to want to stay in the marriage? The reason I am not moving closer to him is because of my kids. So we are both prepared to concessions for our children.

 

Open your eyes and stop excusing your own behavior. What is it that bothers you so with me? That I am a proud unapologetic OW perhaps?

Edited May 29, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Guess I see it differently... not surprised.

The relationship between OW and MM is their relationship....certainly entitled to respect and common decency.

 

The relationship between MM and BS ... the exact same... their relationship and they are also entitled to respect and common decency.

 

Their relationship is theirs... OW and MM is theirs.

 

Other than that.... the fact that anyone can say " how can you think the MM would be honest" and actually still be with their cheating hustband... just too much!

 

Typical.... MM is not capable of being respectful to the OW... but he sure is hell is going to be NOW to his BS, that is of course after he has actually danced the song once or twice before... now, he will be good.

 

I am in awe that you so many show so little respect for the WS but are still sleeping with them, not settling at all.

 

And yes.... The difference.. he never lied to me, and when the decision to be made was put in front of him. I did not allow fence sitting.... it was up to her if she was ok with it ( and she was... knew he'd "eventually" get out of the "fog".

 

The kicker... I do demand respect, and when he wasn't capable of making the choice... I did it for him. Made the choice for him... she doesn't know that... and he is playing sorry WS now.

 

Again.... not possible, I have already heard it before:rolleyes:

 

Course I am sure if anyone suggested that to her.... she would say impossible... he has done EVERYTHING I asked, I "threatened".... and on and on.

 

Since WS are not capable... why is ANYONE still with them.

 

Great post, Myown! :bunny:

[jennie-jennie]

Why would you even believe that you are his primary love interest?

 

There is only so much love and romance a man is capable of in a 24-hour day. :love:

[Spark1111]

IMO, the MM "owes" the OW nothing when the affair is over, just as the OW "owes" him nothing.

 

Common decency - nothing to do with the presence or absence of a prior relationship - simply common decency says he doesn't mess with her or her livelihood. If in a work situation and now the affair is over he finds it uncomfortable to be around her - then he should leave. He shouldn't mess with HER situation because it makes HIM (or his wife) uncomfortable.

 

As for not talking about his wife around her - in order to make HER more comfortable, that is IMO nonsensical. He's married. The affair is over. She shouldn't expect any special treatment based upon a past affair. Would a woman expect a former single lover to be so sensitive of her feelings that he wouldn't talk about a new girlfriend if she happened to be around? I think not. The fact that their relationship was illicit does not mean she forever and ever amen gets special treatment.

 

Honesty - though a nice concept in theory - is not owed to her, especially after she colluded in dishonesty with him towards his wife. I think that's somewhat covered in "as he sows, so shall he reap". If she's more than happy to have him lying when it benefits her, then why on earth would she now feel that she somehow deserves the truth?

 

These are three excellent points, Silk, and I agree with all of them.

 

JJ, if the vow of secrecy and respect are violated after the end of an affair, all gloves come off without guilt, especially as it pertains to one's livelihood, IMHO.

 

Whether it be MM, OW, or BS.

 

That's just hitting below the belt, reeks of revenge and/or insecurity, and is unacceptable.

 

Seren, I too thought his handling of ending it with the OW was less than stellar, though he claims she understood his goal to re-commit to the marriage; his refusal to remain friends, less so.

 

Later in reconciliation, he told me he had realized she wasn't the one six months prior to DDay.

 

Did you tell HER that? I asked.

 

No, he replied, and I informed him of how cowardly that was, and how dishonest to her.

[WalkInThePark]

It won't help you get what you want.

GEL

 

I don't have the feeling that jennie-jennie wants at all costs to "land" this man. She accepts the limitations of the situation. She finds value in her R despite them.

[jj33]

Thanks Spark I thought we were on the same page. Im not saying NEVER mentoin her but if you are in a business meeting discussing how to finance the acquisition of a Singapore company how does his W figure into it?

 

In my case shes never worked and she has no formal education so she is not any sort of authority on the topic. So for him to throw him that reminds me of something my W said yesterday and then smile at me its just ridiculous.

 

I think its a power play. An ego play. We see many many examples of WS who are very disrespectful to the AP after the affair and I dont mean just bowing out and never speaking to them again. THAT would be respectful.

 

Not saying anything is cowardly but its the lesser of many sins IMHO.

[Brokenlady]

If not, why?

 

If so, what?

 

Yes. Basic human decency, no matter how the end of the A plays out.

[jwi71]

No, no one owes anyone anything when the A ends. And stop making stupid comparisions between an R and an A. An R and an A are fundamentally different and its nuts to even consider them as equals. They aren't.

 

When an A ends, nothing. The MM owes the OW absolutely nothing - the opposite is also true, the OW owes the MM nothing.

[jennie-jennie]

No, no one owes anyone anything when the A ends. And stop making stupid comparisions between an R and an A. An R and an A are fundamentally different and its nuts to even consider them as equals. They aren't.

 

When an A ends, nothing. The MM owes the OW absolutely nothing - the opposite is also true, the OW owes the MM nothing.

 

An extramarital relationship is a relationship. No two ways about it.

 

Jwi, from what I have understood you have never been in an extramarital relationship. I have. A relationship is a relationship is a relationship. That is just the way it is.

[fooled once]

Fooled if you are responding to my comments on common decency I am saying its a fair trade. If the MP doesnt stand by his implicit agreement to act decently he gets outed for his cheating. Or he did in my case.

 

Its not the same thing as the bonds of a marriage.

 

jj ((hug)) no, I wasn't referring to your comments. I do agree with you regarding if the MM acts like a prick, then the AP should out him

 

And if you are referring instead to the common decency I mentioned: I do not believe (personally) that anyone should ever under any circumstances attempt to do wrong to another person. The fact is that these two people were supposedly "in love" - for good or bad, that is/was the circumstance. I watched a situation play out at my place of work where the man - who felt he was so much more valuable to the company than the woman was - in effect said that if she remained, he would leave. He tried his best to get her fired, and even threatened to sue the company because he wasn't "warned" about her (never mind the fact that he had affairs with others before her....). (I was the manager of the dept where both worked, so am quite aware of the situation.)

 

He's gone now. She is still there. But, that's another story. IMO (and only MO ), it is common decency to leave the livelihood of anyone alone. You may detest the person (as we all know, love can so easily turn to hate), but that doesn't mean you have any right to screw with their ability to live. If you are stupid enough to play where you work - then you also need to be an adult with the consequences of playtime.

 

No, not your comment either.

 

I didn't really read the other posts until just now - I did pick up on jthorne's comment on decency and that is what I commented on.

 

I still believe if one is involved in an affair, the cheater has no common decency if he/she doesn't own their actions and end the marriage before embarking on an affair.

 

and jwl - I agree - an affair and a marriage are totally different - TOTALLY. An affair is based on lies and secrecy - UNLESS the person who is in the marriage who isn't having the affair is 100% on board with their partner having an affair.

[crazycatlady]

Nope - no one owes anyone anything.

 

And common decency? Really??? A cheater didn't give the spouse common decency to end the marriage prior to the affair, correct? Why does the OW get the common decency that the wife doesn't get? Kinda hypocritical if you ask me.

 

Just because there was no decency in the start and carrying on of the affair does not mean there shouldn't be decency at the end of the affair.

 

Also know as two wrongs do not make a right.

 

CCL

[crazycatlady]

jj ((hug)) no, I wasn't referring to your comments. I do agree with you regarding if the MM acts like a prick, then the AP should out him

 

 

 

No, not your comment either.

 

I didn't really read the other posts until just now - I did pick up on jthorne's comment on decency and that is what I commented on.

 

I still believe if one is involved in an affair, the cheater has no common decency if he/she doesn't own their actions and end the marriage before embarking on an affair.

 

and jwl - I agree - an affair and a marriage are totally different - TOTALLY. An affair is based on lies and secrecy - UNLESS the person who is in the marriage who isn't having the affair is 100% on board with their partner having an affair.

 

That's not an affair .

 

However, there are many relationships based on lies, but they are still relationships. Just because we might not like the think of the affair as a relationship does not mean it is not so.

 

ccl

[Susmay]

An affair is still a "relationship" of course, but it is a very different kettle of fish to a marriage or otherwise public relationship.

 

I consider affairs to be built on lies, secrecy and dishonesty and many do not survive the light of day, including a d-day.

 

I do believe that common decency by the MM towards the OW is best once the A is over. However I do not think that the OW is in any position to insist on it or expect it. After all neither the OW nor the MM has given "common decency" to the BW during the affair.

 

I am surprised when an OW is so hurt that the MM has not even given her "common decency". I guess what surprises me is that she has known all along what the MM is doing to his wife and therefore is capable of doing to someone he has made promises to, yet has still somehow beleived that she would be treated differently.

 

Despite all this as I already said "common decency" is preferable. I suppose if it was applied by the MM and OW, right from the start, the affair would not have occurred.

[White Flower]

Right! Unless the OW insisted that the MM be honest with his wife, she has no credibility to be asking him to treat her (the OW) any different.

That does happen by the way. I would love for him to be honest with her and have asked him to do so.

[MizFit]

That does happen by the way. I would love for him to be honest with her and have asked him to do so.

 

I don't mean to t/j, but this is something that touches on my thoughts on the end of the A. I have always told MM that I won't lie to his W if she contacts me, at any time at all. He may lie to her in his relationship with her and that's his choice, but I won't do the same. He is well aware that is either during any point in the A...he knows this for a fact because it has happened several times.

[White Flower]

I would hope there would be respect and consideration in the ending of any relationship.

Me too.

But honesty in ending an affair?????

But didn't you just say 'any' R?

 

Does the OW/OM deserve MORE honesty, more closure when the affair ends than the BS ever received from either of them during, and often following the end of the affair?

Never suggested MORE honesty. Just honesty...and on both sides if you like.

Does anyone even remotely believe this is a possibility? That a person who has deceived their spouse with the aid of their lover would suddenly stop on a dime and be true blue honest with the affair partner they are now leaving?

That is a loaded statement because it assumes all As are exactly the same. Sometimes, and you must believe this, it is the AP who has the deeper connection and true intimacy with the MP. And if your statement holds true, then you are also saying that your deceitful WH cannot 'suddenly' be honest or true blue with you either. Just because he has returned to the M doesn't make his honesty with you any more honest. KWIM?

And if honesty and closure in realtionships is of such importance to the AP, why do you always advise each other to never give it to the BS when she comes calling or emailing you for HER CLOSURE? To never respond because it is between the MM and the BS and YOU do not owe her/him anything?

The question was what does the MP owe the AP upon leaving; not what the AP owes the BS. But to answer your question, I suppose it has something to do with the fact that you forced him to stay, or that he decided to stay, and so you two deserve each other. You work it out. You won't believe 'the lying OW' anyway. (I don't believe this of you though, Spark).

So, it logically stands to reason, that both the WS and the BS don't owe the OW/OM any closure either.

If BS want the AP to be respectful, it should be observed on the AP end as well.

I don't think it is even possible to assume that a dishonest person would suddenly have a character or personality transplant to allow true honesty in the ending or starting of a dubious relationship such as an affair.

Very easy to assume, even easier to say.

 

Look, of course truths are avoided, even half-truths are stated. Most often in As the truth is simply avoided, believe it or not. When real lies are noticed, trust me it either gets ignored or it gets called out. When it gets called out, hashed over, and truly dealt with one of two things happen; you either end it because you can't trust this person ever again or you develop a deeper sense of intimacy because you know them just a little bit better. And the cycle goes on. It doesn't matter whether it's an A R or a regular R, this cycle happens everywhere. Honesty is truly possible in an A, and the longer you know them the more evident this becomes, as in any R.

 

I'm only on page two and already this thread is leaning toward beliefs about As instead of truths about As. If you haven't had one, you just can't know.

[jennie-jennie]

That does happen by the way. I would love for him to be honest with her and have asked him to do so.

 

Me too.

 

(10 characters necessary)

[jennie-jennie]

I don't mean to t/j, but this is something that touches on my thoughts on the end of the A. I have always told MM that I won't lie to his W if she contacts me, at any time at all. He may lie to her in his relationship with her and that's his choice, but I won't do the same. He is well aware that is either during any point in the A...he knows this for a fact because it has happened several times.

 

This goes for me too. If the wife contacts me, I am not going to lie to her. My MM knows that and respects it.

[jennie-jennie]

I'm only on page two and already this thread is leaning toward beliefs about As instead of truths about As. If you haven't had one, you just can't know.

 

Ain't that the truth!

[jwi71]

An extramarital relationship is a relationship. No two ways about it.

 

Well, ok - I think you are right.

A relationship does exist between A partners but to call it a "relationship" is no where near close to accurate.

 

Jwi, from what I have understood you have never been in an extramarital relationship. I have. A relationship is a relationship is a relationship. That is just the way it is.

 

That's not true.

I was involved in an extramarital A and it profoundly affected me, my children, my family, my friends, coworkers, clients and SO many others.

No, I didn't cheat nor would I ever consider being the OM...but my xWW most certainly involved ME in HER A.

[OWoman]

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive me if I'm stating the obvious or raising issues that have long been put to bed, but...

 

I'm assuming the premise of the thread is, "does the MM owe the OW anything when HE HAS ENDED THE A WITH THE OW?" (i.e., he dumped her - whether under duress following a DDay, or simply because he moved on... rather than the OW having dumped him.) In which case, I guess it would be the same as, does the dumper owe the dumpee anything after dumping them?

 

And obviously people will differ on that - some will feel, yes, you owe your former partner "closure", and some kind of respect and confidentiality following the end of a R: you don't go around telling everyone how small their lovehammer was or how it took them three years to become aroused enough for anything to be ale to happen. Others will feel no - all's fair in love and war, and if they didn't want those vids of themselves jerking off while telling you how beautiful you are to make it to YouTube, they should have thought twice about emailing them to you in the first place. Still others will be of the "it depends" persuasion, being governed more by the context, their mood, or the phase of the moon at the time.

 

Does the dumpee owe the dumper anything when a R ends? Not if women's magazines like Cosmo are to be believed - it's almost imperative to slag your x off for the indignity of being dumped... But again, people will have differing views, no doubt shaped by which end of the divide they've most recently (or most often) found themselves on.

[BB07]

My simple answer..........yes in that the parties involved should show each other mutual respect and common decency, after all the people involved once liked/loved each other so hopefully there are some redeeming qualities left. If not....it's best to take the high road and get to the point where indifference is what is felt.

[jennie-jennie]

Well, ok - I think you are right.

A relationship does exist between A partners but to call it a "relationship" is no where near close to accurate.

 

 

 

That's not true.

I was involved in an extramarital A and it profoundly affected me, my children, my family, my friends, coworkers, clients and SO many others.

No, I didn't cheat nor would I ever consider being the OM...but my xWW most certainly involved ME in HER A.

 

Yes, you were affected by your wife's affair, but you have never been the MM nor the OM in an extramarital relationship, so you just don't have any personal experience to lean back on when it comes to this.

[califnan]

If not, why?

 

If so, what?

 

-------------------

 

At the end of an affair MM owes OW complete honesty, decency, sweetness - and in the form of communication..

 

Should OW be the one to end it - it would be the same..