Labeling MM

[Fallen Angel]

I am a bit bored, and was browsing the threads and came upon yet another MM being labeled as possibly a "narcissist". It seems to me this label is much espoused by BS, rOW and others who are firmly against people engaging in EMAs. It is a word that is thrown around quite often when someone is trying to convince an OW that her MM is just a "no good cheating, lying, cake-eater". (my words not a direct quote from anyone, just making a point)

 

And I have also recently noticed a couple of OW that have apparently been lurking for awhile, espousing the "split-self" label to describe their MM. This is being tossed about when an OW is attempting to convince everyone that their MM is different from everone else's MM and this is why (the split-self theory). *Note* I hold the belief that My Sweetheart is a split-self.

 

My question is why do we tend to want to label someone with a psychological tag rather than just deal with the person as they are. It seems that everyone is making excuses. "My MM is better than other people's MM because he is a split-self". "Your MM is worse than other people's MM because he is a narcissist."

 

Really I am curious why people feel the need to do this, so I thought I would put it out there and find out what you all think is the reason we do this, and if you think that we (a collective LS family we) are often right in our layman's diagnosis, or are we just attempting to put a name to that which we do not really understand?

 

Okay.. GO!

[Art_Critic]

I think it is because someone who has NPD would be more likely to have an affair so therefore the conclusion drawn is that someone who has an affair has NPD..

 

Here are 7 signs that your partner's affairs could be a deeper sign of narcissism:

 

1. Lack of empathy is present. Your partner might not be able to put him or herself in another person's shoes, and callous, selfish acts result.

 

2. An overly inflated sense of self worth exists. Your partner may play up accomplishments beyond their merit.

 

3. Your partner craves admiration, adulation, and praise as much as he or she can get. This "supply" can be obtained for some narcissists through sexual conquests, leading to a likelihood of affairs.

 

4. A sense of entitlement in life. Your partner may feel as if he or she has the right to do whatever she wants, and that he or she deserves special treatment, and to associate with special people or institutions.

 

5. Your partner may tend to exploit others willingly.

 

6. Your partner might be excessively jealous of others and their accomplishments, even becoming enraged at the achievements of others.

 

7. Idealization and devaluation in your partner's way of thinking. You may have been exalted and treated like a princess in the beginning, but sooner or later, you fail to offer adequate narcissistic supply, and become devalued and worthless to the narcissist, with little in between. Narcissists are preoccupied with ideal power, beauty, and love.

 

and labeling.. if the shoe fits .. it just doesn't fit everyone..

[Fallen Angel]

I think it is because someone who has NPD would be more likely to have an affair so therefore the conclusion drawn is that someone who has an affair has NPD..

 

and labeling.. if the shoe fits .. it just doesn't fit everyone..

 

 

But since such a high percentage of the population engage in affairs, and such a small percentage would actually be able to be clinically diagnosed with NPD, obviously the shoe fits very few and we keep trying to stuff the ugly step-sisters feet in them anyway.. right?

[Art_Critic]

right?

 

I'd agree with that..

 

The NPD occurrence is very low when you consider the total male population..

 

I've felt the same way about the NPD label in general.. not just with cheaters..

Many people just label someone as a narcissist because they were hurt and when we demonize someone we can almost always see the bad in them while we are healing and going thru the anger.. or we make it up to make ourselves feel better.

[StoptheDrama]

I am a bit bored, and was browsing the threads and came upon yet another MM being labeled as possibly a "narcissist". It seems to me this label is much espoused by BS, rOW and others who are firmly against people engaging in EMAs. It is a word that is thrown around quite often when someone is trying to convince an OW that her MM is just a "no good cheating, lying, cake-eater". (my words not a direct quote from anyone, just making a point)

 

And I have also recently noticed a couple of OW that have apparently been lurking for awhile, espousing the "split-self" label to describe their MM. This is being tossed about when an OW is attempting to convince everyone that their MM is different from everone else's MM and this is why (the split-self theory). *Note* I hold the belief that My Sweetheart is a split-self.

 

My question is why do we tend to want to label someone with a psychological tag rather than just deal with the person as they are. It seems that everyone is making excuses. "My MM is better than other people's MM because he is a split-self". "Your MM is worse than other people's MM because he is a narcissist."

 

Really I am curious why people feel the need to do this, so I thought I would put it out there and find out what you all think is the reason we do this, and if you think that we (a collective LS family we) are often right in our layman's diagnosis, or are we just attempting to put a name to that which we do not really understand?

 

Okay.. GO!

 

 

FA - I certainly can't speak for all xOW but in my situation, it is not a matter of simply labeling someone with a pychological tag rather than dealing with him. I have labeled my xMM a narcissist because, in trying to understand him (motives, agenda, reasons for the games/lies/maniulation, etc.), I discovered that his actions indeed fit the clinical description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Of course, having been intimately involved with him, I don't believe I could objectively diagnose him. Nonetheless, his actions speak for themselves and fit the pattern. The beter I understand NPD, the better I have been able to deal with him and his ensuing games.

 

That being said, there certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of use of this and other psychological terms with regard to MM's and xMM's. I can only imagine that many other OW and xOW are trying to do the same - understand their situation.

[Fallen Angel]

FA - I certainly can't speak for all xOW but in my situation, it is not a matter of simply labeling someone with a pychological tag rather than dealing with him. I have labeled my xMM a narcissist because, in trying to understand him (motives, agenda, reasons for the games/lies/maniulation, etc.), I discovered that his actions indeed fit the clinical description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Of course, having been intimately involved with him, I don't believe I could objectively diagnose him. Nonetheless, his actions speak for themselves and fit the pattern. The beter I understand NPD, the better I have been able to deal with him and his ensuing games.

 

That being said, there certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of use of this and other psychological terms with regard to MM's and xMM's. I can only imagine that many other OW and xOW are trying to do the same - understand their situation.

 

I get that you are just trying to understand. I am in the same boat. But I also know that what appears to be strep-throat may end up really being pneumonia. (I used this because the doctor and I were both convinced that my daughter had strep. All the symtoms fit strep. But the strep was negative. Further exploration and testing turned up pneumonia.) My point being that even a doctor with years and years of training in the feild can misdiagnose when only looking at the symptoms that appear most obvious. (i.e. Art Critic's stating that "someone who has NPD would be more likely to have an affair so therefore the conclusion drawn is that someone who has an affair has NPD..") So by using the cheating (the most obvious symptom) as a basis for diagnosis are we not possibly missing the much bigger picture?

[pureinheart]

This is quite the challenge, and I find myself "looking back" in my mind concerning responses I've made to others.

 

I try to discern whether this is an emotional response, or is the poster depicting the true story. Are they angry for the moment, or is the MP really a jerk, crackhead...you know.

 

I think every sitch is different, and really do believe there are the jerks who are cake eaters, and others who are hurting and confused and yet others who are stuck. I do think the Split Self is very real.

 

The question is intentionality.

[pureinheart]

FA - I certainly can't speak for all xOW but in my situation, it is not a matter of simply labeling someone with a pychological tag rather than dealing with him. I have labeled my xMM a narcissist because, in trying to understand him (motives, agenda, reasons for the games/lies/maniulation, etc.), I discovered that his actions indeed fit the clinical description of Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Of course, having been intimately involved with him, I don't believe I could objectively diagnose him. Nonetheless, his actions speak for themselves and fit the pattern. The beter I understand NPD, the better I have been able to deal with him and his ensuing games.

 

That being said, there certainly does seem to be an inordinate amount of use of this and other psychological terms with regard to MM's and xMM's. I can only imagine that many other OW and xOW are trying to do the same - understand their situation.

 

Mine was hard to pinpoint...he fit everything at one point...I quess for some we have to ask is this just a person reacting or is this their true personality.

[StoptheDrama]

I get that you are just trying to understand. I am in the same boat. But I also know that what appears to be strep-throat may end up really being pneumonia. (I used this because the doctor and I were both convinced that my daughter had strep. All the symtoms fit strep. But the strep was negative. Further exploration and testing turned up pneumonia.) My point being that even a doctor with years and years of training in the feild can misdiagnose when only looking at the symptoms that appear most obvious. (i.e. Art Critic's stating that "someone who has NPD would be more likely to have an affair so therefore the conclusion drawn is that someone who has an affair has NPD..") So by using the cheating (the most obvious symptom) as a basis for diagnosis are we not possibly missing the much bigger picture?

 

 

That's a good question. When I researched NPD and a variety of other disorders, personality traits, etc I didn't include cheating as a symptom. I compared his actions regardless to whom they were directed (me, his W, colleagues, etc.) or the type of relationship (personal and professional). I don't believe there is any way we could ever really be able to ascertain the number of cheaters who have NPD. Many may have narcissistic personality traits but not to the clinical degree. Really, if you think about it, many cheaters are inherently narcissistic to varying degrees - willingly exploit others for their own gain, a sense of entitlement (to fulfill their needs outside their M), etc. Not by any means applying this as a blanket to all WS but it is applicable to many.

[Heather1]

I've told a few people on these boards to look up NPD. Not because of the A, because how they describe OM. Both my parents are narcissists & I attract them. Mostly, it's hard to deal with anyone who lacks empathy. I sometimes wonder if I'm that way? I can't tell if I'm cold or not. OM is cold.

[jennie-jennie]

Demonizing the MM must fulfill some need inside those who do it. Perhaps it alleviates oneself of the responsibility for having betrayed one's own morals by participating in an affair? Perhaps projecting the anger and other negative feelings on the MM relieves something within?

[MizFit]

Demonizing the MM must fulfill some need inside those who do it. Perhaps it alleviates oneself of the responsibility for having betrayed one's own morals by participating in an affair? Perhaps projecting the anger and other negative feelings on the MM relieves something within?

 

I think that it opens the doors for our future emotional swings as well. I've noticed that many MM are called worse than dirt by their BS and the BS can't understand how the OW can think the MM is so wonderful...then all of a sudden the BS is taking them back and saying that isn't really him and not really the man I married...I'm giving it another shot.

 

In that last paragraph I am not having a go at BS for having huge swings etc...I'm just pointing out how by being so negative at first (other than for the most obvious reason) the door is left open to either boot him out or to reconcile.

 

I think some OW do the same thing as well. Badmouth and label the MM so they can get themselves gee'ed up for NC, but leave a little wiggle room in case they break it.

 

I am a firm believer that my MM is a little bit of everything, other than NPD. I think he is a very reactionary person...very much one to analyze it and try to fix it and then when he can't he tries to fix it again in another way. I'm not saying that's right...I'm saying that's him. I think there may be a smattering of split self since we've met, but I think more than anything he is reactionary.

 

Please...I do not want any BS or OW to think I am badmouthing them in this...I am simply trying to use a few illustrations for the thread.

[jennie-jennie]

I think that it opens the doors for our future emotional swings as well. I've noticed that many MM are called worse than dirt by their BS and the BS can't understand how the OW can think the MM is so wonderful...then all of a sudden the BS is taking them back and saying that isn't really him and not really the man I married...I'm giving it another shot.

 

In that last paragraph I am not having a go at BS for having huge swings etc...I'm just pointing out how by being so negative at first (other than for the most obvious reason) the door is left open to either boot him out or to reconcile.

 

I think some OW do the same thing as well. Badmouth and label the MM so they can get themselves gee'ed up for NC, but leave a little wiggle room in case they break it.

 

I am a firm believer that my MM is a little bit of everything, other than NPD. I think he is a very reactionary person...very much one to analyze it and try to fix it and then when he can't he tries to fix it again in another way. I'm not saying that's right...I'm saying that's him. I think there may be a smattering of split self since we've met, but I think more than anything he is reactionary.

 

Please...I do not want any BS or OW to think I am badmouthing them in this...I am simply trying to use a few illustrations for the thread.

 

Do BS who have reconciled with their own WS badmouth WS currently in affairs as "cheaters", "liars", "cowards"? Because if it was that simple, wouldn't their own husband by a cheater, liar, coward as well? I mean if it is a personality trait, then it just doesn't go away because you end the extramarital affair.

[jennie-jennie]

FA, I have never seen an OW use the split self as an attempt to describe her MM as better than other MM. It is an attempt to bridge the gap between what her heart and her mind tells her. It joins the two. My heart and mind were in constant battle before. The split self theory is a perspective through which I have found peace within. It is not an excuse, it is an explanation.

[pureinheart]

Demonizing the MM must fulfill some need inside those who do it. Perhaps it alleviates oneself of the responsibility for having betrayed one's own morals by participating in an affair? Perhaps projecting the anger and other negative feelings on the MM relieves something within?

 

This is really good jennie...not sure if this is going to make sense, but here goes...I felt guilty about him being M'ed at times (and this could be denial), although knowing that the M was over and had been over, I didn't feel like your perverbial "homewrecker" that OW/OM get called so very often....no one could have wrecked that home any better/more than they did.

 

Maybe I operated in a Split Self as I had deep feelings for him later on in the R, but the intitial motive was friendship and wanting to see him free and he was under a great deal of opression. He couldn't go forward or backward..he was just plain stuck.

 

Then when the feelings came into play this caused an even greater frustration as this was not part of the "plan" due to me knowing the truth about what he had been through and what it would take for his healing. I know that a new R was not supposed to go down nor would it work.

 

I was also extremely traumatized....two broken people, as broken as he and I were could not fix each other....the friendship fixed a lot of stuff but the R tore it all down.

 

I was angry at myself and him.

 

Since have forgiven myself and him.

 

jennie, you always make me think, looking to see if I'm going off into that hatred and anger thing again. It is very nice to see life through different eyes. Due to great trauma, it's easy to see circumstances through anger and resentment....don't ever want to go there again

[pureinheart]

I think that it opens the doors for our future emotional swings as well. I've noticed that many MM are called worse than dirt by their BS and the BS can't understand how the OW can think the MM is so wonderful...then all of a sudden the BS is taking them back and saying that isn't really him and not really the man I married...I'm giving it another shot.

 

In that last paragraph I am not having a go at BS for having huge swings etc...I'm just pointing out how by being so negative at first (other than for the most obvious reason) the door is left open to either boot him out or to reconcile.

 

I think some OW do the same thing as well. Badmouth and label the MM so they can get themselves gee'ed up for NC, but leave a little wiggle room in case they break it.

 

I am a firm believer that my MM is a little bit of everything, other than NPD. I think he is a very reactionary person...very much one to analyze it and try to fix it and then when he can't he tries to fix it again in another way. I'm not saying that's right...I'm saying that's him. I think there may be a smattering of split self since we've met, but I think more than anything he is reactionary.

 

Please...I do not want any BS or OW to think I am badmouthing them in this...I am simply trying to use a few illustrations for the thread.

 

This is really good too, and provokes thought in the same way as jennie did...to look at myself from within first before looking at anyone else.

 

I really hope the OW/OM and BS's that I have seen on this board throughout the years find their peace as well. Anger and hatred are a horrible place to be in.

 

MF, if it weren't for posts like yours I would not be where I am at today...at the very brink of understanding who I am...at the end of the day, that is what it comes down to...thank you...

[jj33]

FA there is a reason there are labels and stereotypes. In many cases they fit. Some of the stories on here are horrific.

 

And some of the behavior recounted is clearly narcissistic. maybe the man you are involved with is not a narcissist, but many are and indeed everyone is a narcissist to some extent.

 

I dont see anything wrong with it and everyone sees things from their own perspective.

 

Perhaps the man you are involved with is not a narcissist and does not display narcissistic behavior but many do.

[jthorne]

Do BS who have reconciled with their own WS badmouth WS currently in affairs as "cheaters", "liars", "cowards"? Because if it was that simple, wouldn't their own husband by a cheater, liar, coward as well? I mean if it is a personality trait, then it just doesn't go away because you end the extramarital affair.

I don't agree that these are personality traits- not the ones you've described above awyway. A person can choose not to be a coward, liar, or cheat anymore. They can stop their behavior. Why else would a BS take them back?

This is entirely different than trying to anonymously diagnose someone with a personality disorder over the internet, which is what I think FA is referring to.

 

I would say that I think all WS are cowards. My xMM certainly was, and I told him so on several occasions- it wasn't just name calling to blameshift after it was over. He could have worked on his marriage or divorced. Instead, he took the easy way and chose to step out on his marriage. That's cowardly to me. (Just as I was a coward and liar too, but that's another thread.)

 

He had to lie to conduct the affair, and an affair is cheating, so he was a cheater. These are not derogatory terms, as you stated in another thread, they are statements of fact.

[BB07]

I agree with Jthorne re: the statement about being cowardly. I think there is a level of cowardice involved but it's unique to each MM/MW and/or the OW/OM to. I can look back on my affair with STBDMM and see cowardice on both our parts, his for not having the guts to leave an unhappy relationship and mine for accepting less than what I wanted.

 

As for personality disorders, it's probably a given that more people engaged in affairs do have more than the average. Maybe I'm jaded, but I think most of us have some level of brokenness or else we'd all choose absolutely healthy relationships to begin with.

[Brokenlady]

According to my psychopathology textboook, somewhere between 2-16% of the population has NPD. It is about twice as common among men than woman. There are 9 diagnostic criteria, and NPD as a label can be bestowed if at least 5 are met. These characteristics need to be consistent and pervasively demonstrated. As with all personality disorders, one can only reasonably expect about 30% improvment if they are in treatment and motivated to change, because it's simply who they are.

 

 

 

DSM IV criteria (must meet 5/9):

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
   
2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
   
3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
   
4. Requires excessive admiration
   
5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
   
6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
   
7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
   
8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
   
9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.
   

My DM has consistently shown #2-7 and 9.

 

Narcisissts have a tendency to describe the beginnings of their realtionships in terms of being relentlessly pursued by the other person (because they are oh so desireable). They often say that they are in these relationships because they feel sorry for the pursuer (sound familiar ladies? "I can't leave because my W can't make it on her own"). Of note is that they also sometimes lack interpersonal perceptiveness - they miss cues, perceive things differently and often attribute behaviors they see to illogical causes.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't agree that these are personality traits- not the ones you've described above awyway. A person can choose not to be a coward, liar, or cheat anymore. They can stop their behavior. Why else would a BS take them back?

This is entirely different than trying to anonymously diagnose someone with a personality disorder over the internet, which is what I think FA is referring to.

 

I would say that I think all WS are cowards. My xMM certainly was, and I told him so on several occasions- it wasn't just name calling to blameshift after it was over. He could have worked on his marriage or divorced. Instead, he took the easy way and chose to step out on his marriage. That's cowardly to me. (Just as I was a coward and liar too, but that's another thread.)

 

He had to lie to conduct the affair, and an affair is cheating, so he was a cheater. These are not derogatory terms, as you stated in another thread, they are statements of fact.

 

To me it is a huge difference between being defined as a cheater, liar, coward and having some of your actions defined as cheating, lying, cowardly. When you define a person by any of these terms, you are indeed defining it as a personality trait. And this is often done anonymously over the internet with hardly any knowledge of the person in question.

 

FA, is jthorne correct that you were only referring to diagnosing someone with a personality disorder? You can't have, since split self is not a personality disorder, I understand it to be a survival mechanism found in dysfunctional families.

[anne1707]

I think unfortunately this type of diagnosis is seen too often across LS. The number of times I have seen someone as being diagnosed NPD/Bi-polar/etc when all that we know about them are a few things that someone elses chooses to post about them drives me crazy.

[Brokenlady]

Narcissists also tend to end up with people having dependent personality disorder. I'll admit I have some of these tendencies. OW who are thinking their MM is NPD really ought to take a good look and see if they (and perhaps the W) fit these criteria:

 

1. has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others
   
2. needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her life
   
3. has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because of fear of loss of support or approval.
   
4. has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own (because of a lack of self-confidence in judgment or abilities rather than a lack of motivation or energy)
   
5. goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others, to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant
   
6. feels uncomfortable or helpless when alone because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for himself or herself
   
7. urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends
   
8. is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of himself or herself
   

[joey66]

As many of you know, I am both (i) MM, and, (ii) xOM to an MW. So the question, if I understand it correctly, is how would I describe myself. Am I narcissistic? I don't think so. (But this thread is clearly all about me.) I'm not exactly sure what constitutes "split-self". Perhaps someone could further clarify exactly what split-self means?

 

DSM IV criteria (must meet 5/9):

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love

3. Believes that he or she is "special" and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)

4. Requires excessive admiration

5. Has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations

6. Is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends

7. Lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her

9. Shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes.

 

Of note is that they also sometimes lack interpersonal perceptiveness - they miss cues, perceive things differently and often attribute behaviors they see to illogical causes.

 

I honestly believe that I display only numbers 3 and 4. And number 1 is exactly wrong. My sense of self-importance is practically nonexistent. Since this relationship with MW, I definitely think that I miss cues and perceive things differently than most.

 

1. has difficulty making everyday decisions without an excessive amount of advice and reassurance from others

2. needs others to assume responsibility for most major areas of his or her life

3. has difficulty expressing disagreement with others because of fear of loss of support or approval.

4. has difficulty initiating projects or doing things on his or her own (because of a lack of self-confidence in judgment or abilities rather than a lack of motivation or energy)

5. goes to excessive lengths to obtain nurturance and support from others, to the point of volunteering to do things that are unpleasant

6. feels uncomfortable or helpless when alone because of exaggerated fears of being unable to care for himself or herself

7. urgently seeks another relationship as a source of care and support when a close relationship ends

8. is unrealistically preoccupied with fears of being left to take care of himself or herself

 

Only number 3.

 

Is it not possible for a regular, ordinary, middle-aged MM (MW) to fall in love with someone other than his W (her H)? Does it have to indicate some sort of disorder? Just sayin.

 

PS. It occurs to me that this response could be offered as proof that I am in fact narcissistic.

[seren]

I don't think my H (who is MY MM) is a cheater, liar or coward, per se. I know he cheated, lied and was a coward during the A, toward both OW and me. Since D Day, he has proved to be anything but. I had never, ever thought H would have an A as his honesty and integrity are some of the things that drew me to him, after 26 years of knowing him I would have seen more of cheating, lying cowardly behaviour if it was an inherent personality trait. As for being a narcissist, I think one of the reasons H had the A was because of the opposite, he had low self esteem, felt not good enough and OW helped him to feel good for a while. as the A went on, he just felt more like a liar, cheat and coward.