Labeling MM

[jennie-jennie]

I agree with Jthorne re: the statement about being cowardly. I think there is a level of cowardice involved but it's unique to each MM/MW and/or the OW/OM to. I can look back on my affair with STBDMM and see cowardice on both our parts, his for not having the guts to leave an unhappy relationship and mine for accepting less than what I wanted.

 

You are describing specific actions, not the individual, huge difference.

As for personality disorders, it's probably a given that more people engaged in affairs do have more than the average. Maybe I'm jaded, but I think most of us have some level of brokenness or else we'd all choose absolutely healthy relationships to begin with.

 

Dysfunctionality - yes, personality disorders - no.

[norajane]

So by using the cheating (the most obvious symptom) as a basis for diagnosis are we not possibly missing the much bigger picture?

 

Yes, of course. The bigger picture being that all focus and thought and energy is being placed on figuring out the MM, yet again, instead of on yourself, your choices, and your actions.

 

Instead of diagnosing him, why not diagnose yourself? You can't do a thing with the MM, regardless of what diagnosis you come up with. So instead of putting him first and devoting all your time to research him, why not put yourself first? Read up on why YOU might be having an affair, and what it says about your psyche and emotional make-up and motivations. Strive to understand yourself, not him.

 

I know that's not what you meant with your question, FA, but that's what came to mind as I read this thread. The bigger picture, to me, is that it's not all about MM, or shouldn't be. The bigger picture is that you shouldn't lose sight of yourself.

[bittersweet memories]

Do BS who have reconciled with their own WS badmouth WS currently in affairs as "cheaters", "liars", "cowards"? Because if it was that simple, wouldn't their own husband by a cheater, liar, coward as well? I mean if it is a personality trait, then it just doesn't go away because you end the extramarital affair.

 

 

Sorry Jennie-Jennie..but that's the truth, and the truth can hurt! All these MM/MW or anyone who has a SO who cheat are cheaters, and Liars and some are cowards. Fooo shoo! Plain and simple~

[jennie-jennie]

Per Joey's request, quick definition of split self (from Affairs by Emily Brown):

 

"Split Selves are rational and responsible - overly so. Early in life they learned that their job was to attend to the needs of others and not to their own needs and feelings. Thus they approach life using only their rational self - a rational self that is not informed by the emotional self. This is the internal split that needs to be healed. Much of the initial work for both spouses is devoted to getting acquainted with the emotional self. For the betraying spouse, this work usually precedes making any decision about the marriage or the affair."

 

For the WS in a Split Self Affair:

"You can't work on your marriage until you've ended your affair. You won't be able to end your affair, emotionally as well as physically, until you work on yourself. Understanding and healing your internal split is your first order of business. That internal split doesn't mean you have a multiple personality. It means you're pulled in two different directions. Your internal split plays out as trying to please - or avoid displeasing - your wife (...), while pursuing a passionate emotional connection with your affair partner (...). One part of you is focused on taking care of others, another part focuses on your needs, and between these two parts of you is a wall."

[bittersweet memories]

Do BS who have reconciled with their own WS badmouth WS currently in affairs as "cheaters", "liars", "cowards"? Because if it was that simple, wouldn't their own husband by a cheater, liar, coward as well? I mean if it is a personality trait, then it just doesn't go away because you end the extramarital affair.

 

 

haha..that is not a personality trait! You can avoid cheating, lieing, being a coward. PLease!!!!!

[jennie-jennie]

Sorry Jennie-Jennie..but that's the truth, and the truth can hurt! All these MM/MW or anyone who has a SO who cheat are cheaters, and Liars and some are cowards. Fooo shoo! Plain and simple~

 

We will just have to agree to disagree. Moral relativism, you know.

[BB07]

 

You are describing specific actions, not the individual, huge difference.

 

 

Dysfunctionality - yes, personality disorders - no.

 

 

Jennie.....I agree with your words regarding my post, I failed to make myself clear.

[Art_Critic]

Moral relativism, you know.

 

[jennie-jennie]

haha..that is not a personality trait! You can avoid cheating, lieing, being a coward. PLease!!!!!

 

On that we agree.

 

And thus my MM does not cheat on me, he does not lie to me, he stands up to me and states his opinions. It is his relationship with his wife that is flawed, not our relationship. Thus I can not define him as a cheater, a liar, a coward, because that only applies to his actions in regard to his wife. It beats me why their marriage has such a weak basis that he can not show his true self to her.

[bentnotbroken]

I am a bit bored, and was browsing the threads and came upon yet another MM being labeled as possibly a "narcissist". It seems to me this label is much espoused by BS, rOW and others who are firmly against people engaging in EMAs. It is a word that is thrown around quite often when someone is trying to convince an OW that her MM is just a "no good cheating, lying, cake-eater". (my words not a direct quote from anyone, just making a point)

 

And I have also recently noticed a couple of OW that have apparently been lurking for awhile, espousing the "split-self" label to describe their MM. This is being tossed about when an OW is attempting to convince everyone that their MM is different from everone else's MM and this is why (the split-self theory). *Note* I hold the belief that My Sweetheart is a split-self.

 

My question is why do we tend to want to label someone with a psychological tag rather than just deal with the person as they are. It seems that everyone is making excuses. "My MM is better than other people's MM because he is a split-self". "Your MM is worse than other people's MM because he is a narcissist."

 

Really I am curious why people feel the need to do this, so I thought I would put it out there and find out what you all think is the reason we do this, and if you think that we (a collective LS family we) are often right in our layman's diagnosis, or are we just attempting to put a name to that which we do not really understand?

 

Okay.. GO!

 

 

Mr. Messy was diagnosed...twice. Living with NPD personality is no joke. They suck the life out of you all MM suck in my eyes, so split self, NPD, depression...whatever the "diagnosis", we all have issues...cheating is cowardly.

[jthorne]

To me it is a huge difference between being defined as a cheater, liar, coward and having some of your actions defined as cheating, lying, cowardly. When you define a person by any of these terms, you are indeed defining it as a personality trait. And this is often done anonymously over the internet with hardly any knowledge of the person in question.

 

FA, is jthorne correct that you were only referring to diagnosing someone with a personality disorder? You can't have, since split self is not a personality disorder, I understand it to be a survival mechanism found in dysfunctional families.

Maybe I did not choose my words carefully enough. There have been a lot of "diagnosis" on this board of NPD, even bipolar. I took that to be what FA was referring to. Inexperienced people on an Internet forum shouldn't be armchair diagnosing people. NPD, bipolar, "split self" are things a person might seek counseling for.

A person typically wouldn't go to therapy for cowardice, lying or cheating (unless it is pathological), so I see nothing wrong with posters "labeling" or others as such.

[xxoo]

You are describing specific actions, not the individual, huge difference.

 

I agree that it is important to label behaviors--not the person--in interpersonal relationships.

 

But there is also wisdom in the Gump adage "Stupid is as stupid does" (or, in this case "liar is as liar does" and so on).

 

In the end, our actions DO determine who we are.

[Art_Critic]

On that we agree.

 

And thus my MM does not cheat on me, he does not lie to me, he stands up to me and states his opinions. It is his relationship with his wife that is flawed, not our relationship. Thus I can not define him as a cheater, a liar, a coward, because that only applies to his actions in regard to his wife. It beats me why their marriage has such a weak basis that he can not show his true self to her.

 

He doesn't cheat on you ...

 

A person IS defined by their actions.. they are one and the same..

So he is defined as a cheater because he is cheating on his wife..

 

Chances are if you were in his wife's place a few years ago he would be cheating on you today.

 

That doesn't mean he will cheat on you if he divorces his wife and marries you but only because he will filled whatever void he needed at the time with the affair and it is filled now.

[jennie-jennie]

Maybe I did not choose my words carefully enough. There have been a lot of "diagnosis" on this board of NPD, even bipolar. I took that to be what FA was referring to. Inexperienced people on an Internet forum shouldn't be armchair diagnosing people. NPD, bipolar, "split self" are things a person might seek counseling for.

A person typically wouldn't go to therapy for cowardice, lying or cheating (unless it is pathological), so I see nothing wrong with posters "labeling" or others as such.

 

Isn't the fact that you are lying, cheating, acting cowardly exactly why you seek IC and MC when you are in an affair?

 

Labeling a person you have no personal knowledge of is always wrong.

Edited May 29, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jthorne]

Isn't the fact that you are lying, cheating, acting cowardly exactly why you seek IC and MC when you are in an affair?

 

Labeling a person you have no personal knowledge of is wrong.

Not all people have to go to counseling to stop their affair, so I guess I can't agree here.

Plus it seems to me that whatever it was in the MM that caused them to lie, cheat, etc would be what brought them to therapy.

What I was saying is that people shouldn't be diagnosing people with serious things such as NPD, bipolar, etc. Most of us here are not professionals.

If I say the sky is green, I'm lying. I don't need a professional to diagnose that.

[jennie-jennie]

What I was saying is that people shouldn't be diagnosing people with serious things such as NPD, bipolar, etc. Most of us here are not professionals.

 

This we agree on. And I believe even a professional would hesitate to make a diagnosis solely over internet.

[Art_Critic]

Labeling a person you have no personal knowledge of is always wrong.

 

If a guy walks into a bank and robs it and is convicted of robbing the bank he is then labeled as being a bank robber, isn't he still a bank robber to someone who didn't see him rob it but they know he was convicted of it ?

 

My Dad cheated on each of his wives thruout 32 years of total marriage and he had multiple affairs during that time..

 

Is he a cheater to you if I told you about what he did ?

[jennie-jennie]

I think unfortunately this type of diagnosis is seen too often across LS. The number of times I have seen someone as being diagnosed NPD/Bi-polar/etc when all that we know about them are a few things that someone elses chooses to post about them drives me crazy.

 

Great post, Anne! :bunny:

[silverplanets]

Yes, of course. The bigger picture being that all focus and thought and energy is being placed on figuring out the MM, yet again, instead of on yourself, your choices, and your actions.

 

Instead of diagnosing him, why not diagnose yourself? You can't do a thing with the MM, regardless of what diagnosis you come up with. So instead of putting him first and devoting all your time to research him, why not put yourself first? Read up on why YOU might be having an affair, and what it says about your psyche and emotional make-up and motivations. Strive to understand yourself, not him.

 

I know that's not what you meant with your question, FA, but that's what came to mind as I read this thread. The bigger picture, to me, is that it's not all about MM, or shouldn't be. The bigger picture is that you shouldn't lose sight of yourself.

 

 

norajane - I thoroughly agree with what you've said.

 

A very good post imho.

 

:)

[bentnotbroken]

Isn't the fact that you are lying, cheating, acting cowardly exactly why you seek IC and MC when you are in an affair?

 

Labeling a person you have no personal knowledge of is always wrong.

 

 

We do it daily. Politicians, entertainers, sport stars, neighbors, service personal....on and on. So if it is so wrong, I am sure you never do it. You know when you use the bitter label, that was an accident...right?

[jennie-jennie]

We do it daily. Politicians, entertainers, sport stars, neighbors, service personal....on and on. So if it is so wrong, I am sure you never do it. You know when you use the bitter label, that was an accident...right?

 

Bitter is an adjective, and cheater is a noun. One describes something, the other defines something.

[silverplanets]

On that we agree.

 

And thus my MM does not cheat on me, he does not lie to me, he stands up to me and states his opinions. It is his relationship with his wife that is flawed, not our relationship. Thus I can not define him as a cheater, a liar, a coward, because that only applies to his actions in regard to his wife. It beats me why their marriage has such a weak basis that he can not show his true self to her.

 

So as long as they are doing it to someone else then it's all hunky dory ???

 

so, using the same rational .... would you really leave your children alone with a child molester on the basis that they hadn't molested your children ..

 

sorry - but I just don't see it ...

[GreenEyedLady]

My question is why do we tend to want to label someone with a psychological tag rather than just deal with the person as they are. It seems that everyone is making excuses.

 

It is easier for people to think that someone is hurting them because they can't help it rather than they are choosing to do it.

 

Same with the addiction theory. It removes the accountability piece of the R and excuses the behavior away.

 

The cold hard fact is that a MM strays from his W because he wants to and he doesn't leave his M because he doesn't want to. It is all about the person cheating.

 

It is an excuse people tell themselves so they can feel better about their choices to stay with someone who is acting like a jerk.

 

I agree with Norajane, everyone should work on themselves.

 

GEL

[bentnotbroken]

Bitter is an adjective, and cheater is a noun. One describes something, the other defines something.

 

 

Cheater MM, now it's an adjective.

[jennie-jennie]

So as long as they are doing it to someone else then it's all hunky dory ???

 

so, using the same rational .... would you really leave your children alone with a child molester on the basis that they hadn't molested your children ..

 

sorry - but I just don't see it ...

 

Come on.

 

I react to defining an individual by actions that only apply to a specific sector and situation of his life, when it does not hold true under any other circumstances.

 

Serial cheaters are exempt here by definition of repeating the same behavior under different circumstances and situations. (And the same would go for child molesters of course.)