What next

[Surfer203]

Yeah.. looking at the pictures hurts a lot! I was looking at pictures of my wife playing with our nephew.. seeing her playing with him instantly made me think that.. "oh yeah.. we were just about to start a family and now we are not" I may never be a Dad. Finally found a person that I was excited to be with foreve, start a family, trusted and loved and now.. nothing. She is out dancing the night away in NYC with out a care in the world. I think that is the life she really wanted.

 

As far as the love conquers all thing, you are right - that saying is complete horse s***. My wife and I were in love.. for real.. and now look at where we are.

 

Anyway - sorry now I am hijacking your thread.. haha. Venting!

 

Later.

[tojaz]

Tojaz, I realize that nothing worthwhile is easy. Trust, am becoming less and less concerned about that at this point. The fact is I DON'T trust her, not one single bit. She'll have to earn that over the next few months/years. Forgiveness, that's another animal all together. Perhaps though once again I must learn to accept that I don't forgive her as such right now, but in time I may. That's about all I can offer.

 

 

W_N forgiveness is not for her, its for you. You dont have to say the words, you dont have to get back together even. Its letting the anger go. If your full to the brim with anger, nothing new can grow and nothing else will replace it until you let that go. Doesn't much matter if shes in front of you or not. It will still get you.

 

TOJAZ

[FanFan]

Am I wrong for feeling that you are hurting, caring, etc. much more than she does.

[What_Next]

FanFan, you are not wrong. In fact a piece of me thinks the same. In fact I struggle with that fact almost daily.

 

Her words carry little meaning for me now, they are but words. She knows this. Her actions carry the weight, she also knows this. I am not letting my heart lead, my head is.

 

This weekend was VERY hard, we began to put Christmas decorations up in Donewrong's place. I have to admit that I could care less about the holidays, but with an 11 year old in the mix I don't get that luxury.

 

I will likely be returning to my place this week to spend more time by myself to attempt to further work this out in my own headspace. I have a session with our MC by myself on Wednesday. I am hopeful that she will give me further insight, but not confident.

[Distant78]

Nothing worthwhile is ever easy my friend. Thats not pointing you in one direction or the other though W_N because neither path is easy, even if it is your decision to make.

 

Your right, trust will not happen overnight, but forgiveness, thats up to you, but that needs to come before anything else. If you cant forgive her (notice I didn't say forgive and forget) then you have already made your decision.

 

TOJAZ

 

You don't have to forgive someone in order to be with them.

[tojaz]

You don't have to forgive someone in order to be with them.

 

 

True, you also dont have to love or even like someone to be with them either, happens all the time. W_N is working on possibly reconciling his marriage.

 

reconcile (ˈrɛkənˌsaɪl) —vb (usually foll by to) 1. to make (oneself or another) no longer opposed; cause to acquiesce in something unpleasant: she reconciled herself to poverty 2. to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people) 3. to settle (a quarrel or difference) 4. to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other 5. to reconsecrate (a desecrated church, etc)

 

Thats forgiveness. Not justifying her actions, not giving her a pass. Its letting her know that he does have the ability to see beyond it. Its not necessary to be with her, but to have any kind of healthy relationship, it is.

 

TOJAZ

[Distant78]

True, you also dont have to love or even like someone to be with them either, happens all the time. W_N is working on possibly reconciling his marriage.

 

reconcile (ˈrɛkənˌsaɪl) —vb (usually foll by to) 1. to make (oneself or another) no longer opposed; cause to acquiesce in something unpleasant: she reconciled herself to poverty 2. to become friendly with (someone) after estrangement or to re-establish friendly relations between (two or more people) 3. to settle (a quarrel or difference) 4. to make (two apparently conflicting things) compatible or consistent with each other 5. to reconsecrate (a desecrated church, etc)

 

Thats forgiveness. Not justifying her actions, not giving her a pass. Its letting her know that he does have the ability to see beyond it. Its not necessary to be with her, but to have any kind of healthy relationship, it is.

 

TOJAZ

 

Reconciling does not equal forgiveness.

[tojaz]

Reconciling does not equal forgiveness.

 

No, but true reconciliation does not occur without it.

[What_Next]

The word forgiveness is being tossed about like a baseball lately it seems. Even Donewrong has mentioned it countless times. See the thing is that word means different things to different people. Have I "forgiven" her? Well I did give her a second chance right? I did break it off with my new relationship right? I am staying with her at least part of the time right? I am NOT interested in anyone else right?

 

Forgiveness from my perspective is part of the process. I hope to one day be able to let go and to "forgive" but I highly doubt the clouds will part and a rainbow will appear. I am still angry, sad, conflicted, and countless other emotions. They come in waves and that's just the way it is. I am not concerned with "forgiveness" right now, only finding a way to express my emotions and begin the healing process. The rest will come in time. Sadly I am not confident that it will though. I really am not.

[Owl]

I THOUGHT that I forgave Mrs. Owl a couple of weeks after d-day.

 

But honestly I didn't truly forgive her until better than a year later. Not until I realized that we truly were going to recover...that she hadn't destroyed everything we had with her actions.

 

It took me a while to get there...and I had to realize the full "price" we paid before I could forgive her.

 

But...with that said...forgiveness finally did arrive.

 

Question...what are you two actively DOING to work through all of this? MC? What kind of things does your MC have you doing? Have you considered checking out a couple of books to help sort through things? "Surviving an Affair" by Harley, "The Five Love Languages" by Chapman, and even a silly little one "20 (Surprisingly Simple!) Rules and Tools for a Great Marriage" by Stephens were all books that helped us considerably.

[What_Next]

Owl, she was in IC, although there seems to be a scheduling issue with it now. We are in MC. I have an individual session with our MC tomorrow and she does next week.

 

I had the book His Needs, Her Needs. I read some of it, she read some of it. I asked her to finish it, she didn't. Our MC had us fill out the 5 languages of Love survey and the results showed that we are almost 100% in sync, who knew?

 

I guess that's the thing, forgiveness is NOT going to come overnight for me. I know that. I just don't have it in me. It'll take time.

 

Honestly I don't feel as though she is doing enough, but perhaps no matter what she did I'd feel like that. Not sure.

[Owl]

My suggestion would be to make a list of what more she needs to be doing. Share it with the MC, and then share it with her.

 

Don't be afraid to INSIST on what you need to make this happen.

 

And if she's not willing to "step up"...time to reconsider your choices. And you know what...don't be afraid to communicate that to her ahead of time either.

 

Make it clear to her that you're willing to GIVE HER THE CHANCE. You're not the one who has chosen to give her the chance to save the marriage, not the other way around. That means she needs to be RESPONSIBLE for using that chance to the best of her ability...or move on.

 

Also realize that changes aren't going to happen overnight. On her side, or on yours.

[2sunny]

if it takes ten miles to get into the forrest = it will take ten miles to get out of the forrest...

 

you didn't get to this place in your M overnight... it won't heal overnight either.

 

what you are looking for here is CHANGE! if things aren't changing - you don't have anything but the same as before.

 

how much is she willing to change?

[What_Next]

You are both saying the same thing, that CHANGE needs to occur. Both on her side and on my side. I agree, 100%. She has made some changes yes, but mostly in terms of behavorial traits. Yes there is little doubt that some of those traits helped us get here, but the most important aspect from my perspective is communication, openess and honesty. Neither or which I feel she has made strides in.

 

The honesty part is largely perception, but I still do not believe anything she says to me without direct verifiable proof. Openess, well she was always terrible at this, and it hasn't improved. What annoys me is that it is obvious that she was open and sharing with her AP, why not be with me? My reasoning is that she is still lying, still hiding. That might not be the case but it is what I am left to assume.

 

How much is she willing to change? I think she is "willing" to do about anything that is suggested, but is she "able" to.

 

The bottom line I feel as though I am leading the charge to rebuilding trust etc and she is following. I'm basically at the end of my rope and I've told her so countless times. Whenever I do I get the same emotional response, but as I have said again and again, they are just WORDS!!! Words mean little from her to me. I need actions.

 

This isn't looking good.

[controlledchaos]

my situation is very different from yours, but i have been reading your threads since the beginning and i wanted to just toss something out there regarding forgiveness.

 

i read or heard somewhere that forgiving is not the same as forgetting or trusting again. if you can forgive the person that is important, but it does not mean you have to forget what they've done or automatically trust them again. i was in a support group and i know that we were told over and over again that actions speak louder than words. our counselor would ask us why we automatically believe the person that is hurting, or has hurt us, the most. and that's a great question. once that trust is severed you learn you don't have to automatically believe what someone tells you. and if they aren't willing to SHOW you they mean business then you don't have to believe them at all.

 

in my case i found the forgiving part to be doable. no, he didn't have an affair ( as far as i know) but he was controlling, secretive, and abusive, and ignored me and the kids for the most part. i found that by deciding to forgive him a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders and i could start healing myself. til that point i held on to so much hurt and self contempt and so much more, and worse. not forgiving him was hurting me so much more than it was hurting him. i will never forget all he has done!! and as time goes on i recall more and more. i do not trust him. his actions are what i go by now. his words rarely matched his actions. and i have realized that is a HUGE deal!!!

 

i agree that you need to tell her exactly what you need from her. exactly! and if she cannot do that you need to decide what's best for you. and if her actions are not matching her words, or are not moving forward and making changes you need to reassess what's best for you!

 

best of luck!!

[Owl]

What SPECIFIC actions are you looking for from her that you've not seen? Have you spelled these out to her clearly, and in a point blank fashion?

[controlledchaos]

what_next, that's the same kind of stuff i was dealing with ( again i know our situations are different). i would ask him to read a book, like the 5 love languages and he wouldn't. or to do something for me and he wouldn't or would tell me it was pointless.

 

i remember a huge eye opening point for me, was when i was asking him to please help me save our marriage. i said something along the lines of it being a sinking ship and we needed to do something quickly, and he responded that he needed to fix his job first. that he couldn't be worried about a failing marriage til his job was fixed. that was after 9 yrs of marriage, him having 4 jobs, with 4 moves, and 5 kids. they were words, but they were actions too. his job was his priority through actions and i guess that's one of the times where his words and actions matched. he meant it. there was no saving us til he figured out his work situation. and he said that would be at least a year down the road.

 

i am now a firm believer that when a person shows your their true colors, believe them.

[Donewrong]

This is what I am talking about. Why is she not putting this recovery into the priority list? Why isn't she putting the effort needed, especially specifically requested by you, to heal this marriage?

 

 

I did indeed read the book "His Needs, Her Needs" and I am currently going through it the second time. Any request he makes it is my number one priority!

One of his main requests has been communication and we have been talking back and forth about it throughout the day. I have looked into some communication builder ideas that I will be bringing home for us to excercise.

Edited December 14, 2010 by Donewrong

[What_Next]

I had assumed Donewrong did not finish reading the book. I should have asked her.

 

FWIW I believe she is trying, she is just 100% confused about what to do. She is taking the defensive route of saying nothing because to her mind whatever she DOES say is wrong. She has really been trying to explain it to me.

 

I'll also admit I'm a terrible listener. I have some bad habits that often make Donewrong gunshy in terms of wanting to express her feelings to me.

 

Now I am not going to come on here act like I am taking the blame for this. I certainly will NEVER do that. Donewrong cheated and there is NEVER EVER EVER a justification for that. I just don't care what anyone says, cheating is NOT the answer.

 

The heavy lifting is on her, she knows that. However, I have a role to play. Communication is one of my key indicators for success right now, so I must do what I am able to help that along.

 

Donewrong realizes that her actions dictate the future, words alone are meaningless, they must be backed up.

 

For now I am also spending a lot of time in my own place in my own headspace. This makes Donewrong feel quite lonely, and she does express that, but until I can commit 110% to any reconciliation this is the most prudent course of action.

 

Our marriage is done, finished, buried. That's that. I have no interest in "rebuilding" our marriage. We need to create a BRAND NEW one out of the ashes of the old.

 

Surfer, I hope you continue to follow along, as some of these updates are particularly applicable to you. Once your hysterical bonding ends (enjoy it by the way; but BE SAFE!) the real work begins.

 

This process will take years for me and I have a lot more pain to experience, I know that. I have a lot more anger to experience, I know that also. A lot more tears no doubt as well. However; if we BOTH get to work we might eventually come out the other end. If however, we don't, then I personally can walk away, hold my head high and know I did everything I could and have no regrets.

[hopesndreams]

Do you often wonder what she is doing in her own apartment when she is not with you? Is she "connected"?

 

How does one rebuild trust when living separately? Would her packing up computer and getting it out of the apartment help with this? That could be a positive action on her part.

[What_Next]

Hopesndreams, good point. I have worked in the IT field for over 15 years. She knows that EVERYTHING that comes out of any computer at her place is keylogged (or potentially keylogged, she is never sure) and her phone, well I have a handle on that as well.

 

Now there is that chance that she is pulling some B/S at work. I cannot really stop that can I? Nor am I really interested in doing so. Suffice to say her movements are tracked as much as I see fit. She has no issue with that. Honestly, I don't care if she does because some things are not negotiable for me.

 

It's quite odd, but our buildings are in the very same apartment complex. In fact I can see her window from my place and vice versa. Needless to say that would have made things quite complicated should our seperation had of continued .

 

Do I trust her? No. Not one single bit. Could she be up to something? Yes. Let's just say I've learned a thing or two and I WILL NEVER again make the mistake of letting any suspicions go unchecked. I ask for 100% verifiable proof of anything I see fit to ask for. She either produces it right than and there or there will be consequences.

 

Oh, she does require a phone for work (she is on call every second week, as am I), she also requires a computer for work. Both of which I have full access to.

 

Surfer, are you reading? Do you see what you have ahead of you? Is your wife going to accept this? I'd hazard to say NO. Then again I've been wrong before (once in early 2005 if I remember correctly....).

 

 

It's harder than hell to live like that, but for now I need to take these steps to try and rebuild some level of trust. They will fade over time, but our relationship will never again be the same. Donewrong knows this also. We'll see if she accepts it in the medium term or not. If not, then so be it.

Edited December 14, 2010 by What_Next

[Steadfast]

This has to be the wackiest, most wonderful thread on LS. Seriously. I'm tempted to ask you two if you'd like some coffee or a glass of Chardonnay. In fact, I have a nice raspberry cheesecake in the fridge. Care for some?

 

W_N, at times I feel for you, and other times I want to slap you with my gloves. But most of all I admire you (and your wife) for taking this on.

 

I've probably mentioned this before W_N, but my father cheated on my mom. They did reconcile, but there's no doubt what he did stayed with her for years. That being said, when other issues came to the forefront (including starting a family business and his cancer) the pain of that faded as their bond became stronger. In the end and after 63 years, mother continues to miss her 'cheater' everyday. More so during the holidays.

 

He was selfish, entitled, spoiled and self-centered. I know that because he told me. I have no doubt that his pain was worse than hers. Know that. The sacrifice they made generated a real home for my family, and in the end her love returned. She stopped worrying about things she couldn't control and he stopped worrying about her worrying. It started with (and only with, believe me) the desire to do what was right, and that grew into a grudging respect. In time, the love blossomed again and his last waking moment was spent looking into her eyes. Not the 'OW'. Hers. And ours.

 

W_N, I have no idea what your wife will eventually do, or if she's sincere. I do know that she isn't perfect. I don't know if she'll cheat and lie again, but I do know that is a risk you'll take in any relationship. I don't know if she really loves you, but I do know if she didn't, she wouldn't be there...trying.

 

I'd chuck the checking, shelve the snooping, end the lease a couple months early and use the money you save on a romantic getaway. Maybe a cruise. I always wanted to take my sweetie on a cruise, but I never will.

 

If she loves you, you'll be a blessed man. If she doesn't, you'll learn another hard lesson. You'll never make her decisions for her W_N, and she'll never make yours. Time to let your guard down and enjoy what's left of your life. You never know...none of us do. Get the bad stuff out and bury it with the rest of the deadwood. That's where it belongs.

[2sunny]

I'd chuck the checking, shelve the snooping, end the lease a couple months early and use the money you save on a romantic getaway. Maybe a cruise. I always wanted to take my sweetie on a cruise, but I never will.

 

i'm appalled at this suggestion. simply because she hasn't earned anything. this is more like rewarding her bad behavior and being ignorant to reality at the same time. :rolleyes:

 

talk about misery - that would be it.

 

 

look - IF your wife doesn't start taking the lead and DOING all the things necessary to completely change the M and your lives - there is really nothing to consider... it's really up to her... and how much of the hard work she will DO in order to make that happen.

 

let her loose - let her do her work. step away. then when she has changed (if she changes) then and only then will it be worth considering spending time together again.

 

in the meantime - you are a distraction for the work she needs to do for herself - in order for her to find what happy looks like on her... then she can offer the new and improved version of herself to you if you still want to consider that new start.

[Surfer203]

What_Next: Yes - I am reading right along my friend! I will keep reading and posting no matter what. Thanks.

 

We will both get through this - no matter what the outcome!

[Steadfast]

i'm appalled at this suggestion. simply because she hasn't earned anything. this is more like rewarding her bad behavior and being ignorant to reality at the same time. :rolleyes:

 

talk about misery - that would be it.

 

I stand by it. Either go in full with everything you've got, damn the torpedoes, or divorce her and be done with it. Seriously. What kind of life are we talking about? Constant doubt, checking, wondering, worrying. Seriously. Screw that. if she's 'gonna, she's gonna. Worried that she might? Leave and be done with it. Love her and want marriage? Dive in, be happy and live the life you want and desire. The Status Quo stinks.

 

The whole living a 'life of misery' is a waste of time. A waste of life.