What ever happened to feminism

[dyermaker]

I think that sometimes they're fighting the wrong battles, what really gets accomplished? Does one really want a world in which both males and females are exactly the same?

 

I've had a teacher take points off for writing "fireman" in some sort of paper.

[UCFKevin]

Seriously?

 

Ugh. That's just way too damn far.

 

I guess I'm just old fashioned.

 

I LIKE holding the door open for girls. I LIKE paying for dates. I LIKE carrying the girl I'm seeing through a puddle. etc.

[DENTALASSISTANT]

I would really LOVE to get breast implants......I am 103lbs and 5'7"...I think its all about the sex and feeling like you are and look the best you can be..

[BlockHead]

sinny

I wish that we could be more appreciative and supportive of one another. Instead we seem to get catty and judgemental, threatened by other womwn's successes (or am I projecting here?).

There isn’t much love or unity among men especially when competing for women.

sinny

I think that consumerism feeds us insecurities that we can only overcome by standing up and shouting that we are okay with ourselves and with each other.

I disagree. Consumerism is a very new idea. Cosmetics, sex appeal, prostitution, etc. have been around for thousands of years.

 

I think this thread is a good example of why Feminism has lost its appeal to many women. The radicals hurt the cause because they attack men, and other, less radical feminists.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t26454/

dyermaker

I've had a teacher take points off for writing "fireman" in some sort of paper.

I believe that teachers tend to be very liberal (Politically Correct). Let me guess, you live in California. That’s a double-whammy.

[dyermaker]

He (yes, HE) even wrote "Fireperson", which I had never heard before. I said, do you mean 'firefighter'? And he sort of grumbled, like, "Listen you, you're the politically incorrect bigot :p"

[jenny]

sinny,

 

what bothers me about the discussion is that feminism is not a monolithic and monologic ideology. it is more properly 'feminisms' - and your take will depend on your age, era, geographical location, sexuality, creed, etc. first wave feminism is, in my opinion, inadequate to meet the needs of women in third world nations, for example.

 

i would consider myself, if asked for a label, to be post feminist. feminism is not over - we still live in a relatively patriarchal society - but i am more interested in class as the site of exigent gender struggle. i am interested in using the insights struggled for by feminists and applying them to this, postmodern, world.

 

it's time for a philosophy, for me, that is not biologically deterministic, even in a celebratory way, nor positivist, nor exclusionary. i think housewives and porn stars can be just as revolutionary as academic activists. (i was an academic activist for most of my adult life )

 

i am also comfortable with the consumer and cultural choices i make in my demographic; a " having your feminist body but shaving it too" stance.

[sinny]

Originally posted by BlockHead

 

I disagree. Consumerism is a very new idea. Cosmetics, sex appeal, prostitution, etc. have been around for thousands of years.

 

Consumerism thrives on convincing you that you have insecurities and need a product to combat them (examples: wrinkle cream - you have wrinkles, wrinkles are bad, get rid of wrinkles and be beautiful like these models, only $9.99; breast implants - you have no boobs, no boobs is bad, if you have big boobs all your dreams will come true, and it only costs $1999.99). No, consumerism hasn't been around since the beginning of time, but it is a big reason that the feminist cause is stalled, because women (and men) are brainwashed by the media from a very early age (don't make me quote brain studies).

 

I think this thread is a good example of why Feminism has lost its appeal to many women. The radicals hurt the cause because they attack men, and other, less radical feminists.

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/t26454/

I believe that teachers tend to be very liberal (Politically Correct). Let me guess, you live in California. That’s a double-whammy.

 

I would also like to know WHERE in this thread you find an attack on other women? If you are referring to my breast implant rant, I will not judge these women for doing it, but I think there are very serious medical concerns that are akin to Japaneese footbinding (doing something that is potentially harmful for the sake of the beauty ideal at the time). I think that its interesting that these concerns (as well as the inability to accept your natural shape) are forgotten in response to aesthetic concerns that I feel are societally fed.

 

What I am trying to say is that there is much more power to be had in uniting as women than there is to be had in being competitive for male attention. I don't understand how this is unappealing, unless one is so caught up in the validity of the male aesthetic that you have lost any grip on what you, yourself value.

 

so eat my cheese, blockhead, baby, and lick my hairy armpits

[jester]

i am also comfortable with the consumer and cultural choices i make in my demographic; a " having your feminist body but shaving it too" stance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't believe you write this stuff. What are you doing here, jenny?

[sinny]

Oh, dammit, I put in the quote attributed to blockhead about defending the fact that consumerism molds our thinking and thrives on insecurities. sorry, blockhead i didn't mean to make you sound californian and liberal - god forbid

[jenny]

i do agree with working with, and to support, other women, consistently and particularly those with fewer economic advantages. that, to me, is the most important part of any feminist message. i make sure that most of my volunteer work is with women.

 

i think we need to work with men as well, and make sure a variety of feminism messages are broadcast.

 

i don't have breast implants, but i would not look down or judge a woman for having them. i believe any woman is an adult enough to understand the health and cultural ramifactions of her actions and has made an adult decision that i, as another woman, should respect.

 

my (post)feminism must be rooted in the belief that all other female creatures are just as intelligent and rational as i believe myself to be.

 

i love that you posted on this. it seems to be a forgotten issue, and while i think you and i might be emerging from different waves of feminism, i am soo grateful that you voiced this as a concern and topic for discussion.

 

just the other day, cdn pointed out a terrific 'blind spot' about sexism when it comes to porn - it's something we do well not to forget)

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sinny

...but I think there are very serious medical concerns that are akin to Japaneese footbinding (doing something that is potentially harmful for the sake of the beauty ideal at the time).

 

Women who get breast implants are making a choice.

 

Footbinding (Chinese btw) was not a choice, it was done to them at a young age.

[jenny]

Originally posted by jester

i am also comfortable with the consumer and cultural choices i make in my demographic; a " having your feminist body but shaving it too" stance.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I can't believe you write this stuff. What are you doing here, jenny?

 

lol; i'm such a frustrated freelance writer. if i don't make it before i'm forty i'm going to commit a very public suicide; then interest should perk up.

[sinny]

Originally posted by dyermaker

 

 

Women who get breast implants are making a choice.

 

Footbinding (Chinese btw) was not a choice, it was done to them at a young age.

 

 

I didn't say it was the same as footbinding i said it was AKIN to Japaneese footbinding, can't you just humor me

[dyermaker]

Originally posted by sinny

I didn't say it was the same as footbinding i said it was AKIN to Japaneese footbinding, can't you just humor me

 

No, I disagreed with the afforementioned "akin"--Shouldn't a feminist WANT women to be free to make choices about their bodies?

[meanon]

what bothers me about the discussion is that feminism is not a monolithic and monologic ideology. it is more properly 'feminisms' - and your take will depend on your age, era, geographical location, sexuality, creed, etc. first wave feminism is, in my opinion, inadequate to meet the needs of women in third world nations, for example.

 

i would consider myself, if asked for a label, to be post feminist. feminism is not over - we still live in a relatively patriarchal society - but i am more interested in class as the site of exigent gender struggle. i am interested in using the insights struggled for by feminists and applying them to this, postmodern, world.

 

it's time for a philosophy, for me, that is not biologically deterministic, even in a celebratory way, nor positivist, nor exclusionary. i think housewives and porn stars can be just as revolutionary as academic activists. (i was an academic activist for most of my adult life )

 

i am also comfortable with the consumer and cultural choices i make in my demographic; a " having your feminist body but shaving it too" stance.

 

 

Remarkable post Jenny. So often I don't join these debates because a) they start at 2.30 in the morning and b) I don't know where to start (e.g. the personal, sociological, geographical). Then you step in and do it in 13 lines. Thanks!

[sinny]

Originally posted by jenny

ii love that you posted on this. it seems to be a forgotten issue, and while i think you and i might be emerging from different waves of feminism, i am soo grateful that you voiced this as a concern and topic for discussion.

 

Hey, I'm 31, I don't think my generation has had a huge wave of feminism, though I might say that I think in my time we have had some feminist backlash

 

I am getting sick of talking about breast implants... put them on your back, your legs, your head, whatever....

 

It is my belief that as we go along in this increasingly consumerist culture that our "free" will is eroded by decades of meditation and brainwashing from TV, movies, billboards, magazines (think about how many hours we spend contemplating consumerist images) from a very early age. It is a fact that humans are an adaptable race and have populated the world because our brains are malleable and adaptable. I just wonder if we are really exercising free will if we are influenced by consumerist images. In a world without media influence would women still want to stick foreign objects into their chests??

[jenny]

lol; sinny, baby, i don't mean to push you, but there are more rigourous methods of defense than begging your debate partner for his indulgence.

 

it's an interesting analogy. dyer has critiqued it on the grounds of agency - i agree with him - but your response could be along the lines saying that women may not have 'informed choices' - some people argue that self-immolation by shamed adult women in india is their choice, as well, and the same argument has been made for adult female circumscion. how would you defend stances concerning these issues?

 

c'mon woman - i'm rooting for you! give 'em some strong articulate feminism!

 

*o! i just saw your last post; nevermind!

[jester]

Women, I think that the competitiveness over appearance and seeking male approval undermines our power in society.

 

 

I believe these are partial explanations only, sinny. Looking at middle and upper middle class women and their career aspirations in the USA , I'm struck by how many women attend elite colleges and professional schools, get hired by first rank employers and then 5 years later throw it all away in order to stay home and raise a family.

 

The new wave feminists are, unlike their mothers, hewing to hearth. This is the grand rejection of masculine hyper-careerism. These women refuse "to have it all." For women of this class, however, it is a matter of choice not gender subjugation.

 

A very interesting turn.

[sinny]

Originally posted by jester

 

 

 

I believe these are partial explanations only, sinny. Looking at middle and upper middle class women and their career aspirations in the USA , I'm struck by how many women attend elite colleges and professional schools, get hired by first rank employers and then 5 years later throw it all away in order to stay home and raise a family.

 

The new wave feminists are, unlike their mothers, hewing to hearth. This is the grand rejection of masculine hyper-careerism. These women refuse "to have it all." For women of this class, however, it is a matter of choice not gender subjugation.

 

A very interesting turn.

 

 

I don't see how what I said is in opposition to this, but

 

ya'll are just so dang sharp, yer testin' my wits

[jester]

I don't see how what I said is in opposition to this, but

 

ya'll are just so dang sharp, yer testin' my wits

 

Don't get me wrong, you're absolutely right on women, beauty and sexual competition for males. I was just coming up with another possible explanation, using your astute comments as a springboard.

[sinny]

whoohoo, i'm astute!

 

i think i should get off the the boards now, though, I really should be researching my thesis (which is a whole other painful topic)

later...

[BlockHead]

sinny

I was not referring to CelticAnastasia’s original post, but her interactions with other. Her tone becomes very condescending in later posts, and she tries to discredit other LoveShackers. It actually seemed like an ‘angry protester’ shouting match.

 

CelticAnastasia Post 9

Stop fraternizing with the enemy? THE ENEMY? What women are the enemy? Feminists are the enemy? Or jerk off guys who consider women's rights a threat to their role as YOU MAN. Now I know why they call you block head. Who is this enemy you are speaking of-- I am sure all the women here would like to know.

 

Power hungry--hmmm. Interesting choice of words. Not well informed or appropriate but interesting none the less. I'm never power hungry- but if thats how you feel about a woman who wants what is rightfully hers without constantly/always compromising and hiding her true feelings to fit the feminine mystique--I guess I am and so are most women in this world. By saying that i am power hungry by wanting to have my equal share and right to my opinions you in yourself are being sexist. A woman doesn't have to repress her emotions or squash her desires in the spirit of compromise just to make everyone else happy. Especially someone named blockhead. We do it way to much already. Not everyone is going to be your mother and give so freely of her time and energy and follow none of her own desires. Men have hardly ever had to balance all the things we have had to-- where is the compromise there? As for generalizing men my dear you are in the wrong. I never generalized and said all men were this or that. But once again the ship has sailed and left you confused on the shore. Alot of men are like that. Alot of men are not like that. And the fact that you said pretty boys let me know that you have an issue with them as well. Have we been rejected a time or 12? Just asking.

 

I'm impressed that you took the intro to psych course but personality type is shaped due to certain forces-- say genetics, society, life experience,oh I don't know, things to that effect. But what the hell does that have to do with feminism? Once again you are waving on the shore. I don't care if you wear red heels or green combat boots-- read books or take shots with soroity sisters-- you have the right t do allbut certain factors such as your sex shouldn't impede the self actualizaion process. Some women are so wrapped up in being a woman and being feminine to the point that they themselves know nothing about there true selves??? Are they power hungry as well?

”fraternizing with the enemy” was mean to be a joke.

As you can see, she was condescending, and she attacked me personally.

 

Check Celtic Post 16

She wasn't very friendly with the LS ladies.

 

I think that attitude is hurting the feminist cause by alienating potential male and female supporters.

[meanon]

I'm not sure it's a completely unforced choice. Opportunity is open to women as never before but as cdn said - having it all is a myth. Often you have to choose not to have a family or act as if you don't (in that they can't impact in any way on your working life). Many are able stay on the corporate ladder and make arrangements for others to care for their kids but many more are choosing to leave work. Yes it is a choice but it is not free one. When employers (mainly public sector) offer more flexible, family friendly terms and conditions most women with children choose to work part time.

[jenny]

what is your thesis about? PM me if you like; sometimes it helps to articulate them for strangers; and we can exchange 'very painful' thesis defense stories.

[jester]

I'm not sure it's a completely unforced choice.

 

Your right, meanon. I was referring to choice as in no legal barriers to employment , not as in daily compromises.

 

The New York Times Magazine has a cover story about 2 months ago, which focused on very well educated women who left the workplace to raise a family. A great read.

 

Now, meanon, please go to bed.

 

Good night.