Multiple D-Days for BS and OW. What really is the difference?

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting discussion...

 

It seems like there are many OW (not all of my OW friends here of course) who have the mentality that if the MM throws them under the bus on d-day that the BS should drop/divorce him as well.

 

Sort of along the lines "Well if I (meaning OW) can't have him then nobody

else (meaning BW) should have him either."

 

Very different than what many BW here have said after d-day, "Go be with your OW if you are that in love" or some version. I said this as a BS (I told my H to go find happiness, whatever that was for him-including the OW), Spark said this, Herenow has said this and I'm sure there are others.

 

It seems BWs don't usually have the "if I can't have him, nobody should" mindset.

 

This interests me. I am not sure what to think about this.

 

I know it hurt like hell when my exSO chose to be with the OW instead of me. I didn't want to live. I wanted more children, and in my imagination she was the one becoming pregnant. I was hurting. I saw them together at the tram station holding hands, knowing that he never was romantic with me. It wasn't like I could say "Go with her", he had already gone with her. (A month later he was back, asking me to give our relationship another go!)

 

The times I have thought my MM was leaving me to go back to his marriage, I hurt like hell too. But I know I did not want them to be happy together. I think it is because that feels like you never really meant anything, like their life can go on just like you never existed. They are happy, and you are left being devastated. A breakup is one thing, moving on is one thing, but going back is another.

[silktricks]

I am certain there are more MM than mine, who have stopped being intimate and having sex with their wives. Thus these wives do have less than before.

 

There are undoubtedly those MM who have stopped being intimate and having sex with their wives - and there are also (the great majority I would bet) who like my fWS, TOLD the OW we were not having sex (we were), TOLD the OW he was planning on leaving (I had already left him (but we were still together often)) and TOLD the OW they were going to be together in the future (or at the very least "led her to believe" all of the above).

 

Then D-Day comes. The MM is busy making his wife believe the OW meant nothing, and begging the wife to forgive him. Whether that is in truth what he wants, or rather simply an attempt to calm things down so he can get back to the way things were - the fact is that at that time he IS rejecting the OW - both by words and by actions. He is doing everything he possibly can do and saying everything he possibly can say to be able to STAY MARRIED which is the opposite of what he has (usually) been telling the OW.

 

Meanwhile, the OW is waiting (patiently???) for him to be able to resume things with her, and the BS is telling him to get the h*ll out. Tell me again how the OW is not being rejected here?

 

I know you can say that I've provided an example that proves my argument, but the fact is that the example I've provided is what USUALLY happens .

Edited June 9, 2010 by silktricks

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks Jennie. Given your depth of feeling for the MM, I am surprised you are able to share him with his wife. I rarely agree with what you say (in relation to A's) as some of the things you say echo what the OW said in my situation. No sex, no intimacy, etc, I understand why you would believe that, and expect that from an OW who is so obviously in love with a MM.

 

Do you think he will ever tell his wife and be completely honest with both women in his life? I sincerely hope you don't get hurt as while I don't have any respect for a person who continues to cheat, I have respect for someone who is true to themselves, despite the flack they get thrown at them.

 

I do hope at some point my MM will be ready to tell his wife the truth. We discussed it as late as today. I think we both realize that we do not know what our relationship will look like after that, or even if we will have a relationship. I think nobody really knows what a Dday brings on. That is also why my MM so far has been reluctant to tell, once it is out it can not be taken back. He is not ready to let me go, he is not ready to let his marriage go, but a Dday would certainly change the landscape.

[silktricks]

Thank-you for pointing this out Snowflower:

I still would like to know what D-day means from the OW's point of view. I think there might be a different definition depending on what side of the triangle you are on.

 

From a fBS POV, my definition of d-day is when the BS finds out about the affair and there is no question that the WS is involved in one. It's not suspicion, or questions from the BS...it's irrefutable proof.

The above bolded is also my definition of d-day. Not suspicion. Absolute hard-core knowledge.

 

 

So, when we talk about multiple d-days...what are we really talking about? Suspicions or hard-core evidence? I can't imagine most BS would stay around for multiple d-days that span a long period of time.

 

It's one thing if a BS finds out about the affair one week (d-day number one) is still in shock and then is confronted with more evidence the following week (d-day number 2), etc.

 

If multiple d-days stretch out over a longer period of time (months, years) then it is a little different but not the "fault" (can't think of a better word) of the BS. In my mind, the WS is really good at gaslighting both at that point.

What I was talking about was multiple honest to god d-days, hard-core evidence d-days. Not one week #1 and then another the following week. I'm talking about one this month (or even year) and then another the following month or year. Because I was comparing the situation between BS and OW, the OW involved would need to be the same - so not a serial cheater.

 

Like you, I personally would not even attempt to recover a marriage with more than one D-day spread apart such as that, but I know that there are many women who do... some BS have posted such examples here on LS, and some OW have posted about that type of situation with their MM.

 

So that's the scenario I was posing in the outset.

[jennie-jennie]

There are undoubtedly those MM who have stopped being intimate and having sex with their wives - and there are also (the great majority I would bet) who like my fWS, TOLD the OW we were not having sex (we were), TOLD the OW he was planning on leaving (I had already left him (but we were still together often)) and TOLD the OW they were going to be together in the future (or at the very least "led her to believe" all of the above).

 

Then D-Day comes. The MM is busy making his wife believe the OW meant nothing, and begging the wife to forgive him. Whether that is in truth what he wants, or rather simply an attempt to calm things down so he can get back to the way things were - the fact is that at that time he IS rejecting the OW - both by words and by actions. He is doing everything he possibly can do and saying everything he possibly can say to be able to STAY MARRIED which is the opposite of what he has (usually) been telling the OW.

 

Meanwhile, the OW is waiting (patiently???) for him to be able to resume things with her, and the BS is telling him to get the h*ll out. Tell me again how the OW is not being rejected here?

 

I know you can say that I've provided an example that proves my argument, but the fact is that the example I've provided is what USUALLY happens .

 

This is what I believe when it comes to long term extramarital relationships:

The MM can not work on his marriage if he does not end the affair.

The MM can not end the affair if he does not work on his inner issues.

The MM can not end the marriage if he does not work on his inner issues.

 

Thus, knowing this, it should be no surprise for the informed OW that the MM does not want to end his marriage on Dday and thus does all he can to make it survive.

[silktricks]

This is what I believe when it comes to long term extramarital relationships:

The MM can not work on his marriage if he does not end the affair.

The MM can not end the affair if he does not work on his inner issues.

The MM can not end the marriage if he does not work on his inner issues.

 

Thus, knowing this, it should be no surprise for the informed OW that the MM does not want to end his marriage on Dday and thus does all he can to make it survive.

Just curious - what do you think of the cases where the MM actually does end the affair on D-Day (or closely thereafter - like say a week)?

[OWoman]

No matter what an OW might feel about the MM's primary feelings of love in a R' date=' unless he's paying her bills, helping her maintain her home, and living with her, she is not the primary R.[/quote']

 

This is a funny measure of primacy, IMO - it's more about duty than choice. But even so - there are several OWs here whose MMs DO pay their bills, help out around their homes, and live with them at least some of the time. Equally, there are MMs who do not do that with / for their Ws - my H and his xW were far from exceptional in having entirely separate finances, for example, and what was shared was around the KIDS, not around the M.

 

Ms are all very different. My H and I have two homes between us - he pays all the bills for his, and I pay all the bills for mine, irrespective of which one we live in. He covers expenses for his kids, and I for mine. Most of our friends and colleagues have blended, second, or binuclear families, and so those kinds of financial arrangements are more the norm than the exception. The only thing that has changed since the A is that his xW now has her own house.

 

Yet, again, often, the BS is reviled for taking back a liar with the underlying implication that the BS should let him go so he can be with his "true love". Or, alternatively, if the man actually did drop the OW, the BS should drop the MM because he should be "punished". If the MM should drop the BS on D-Day, there would certainly not be any idea that THEY should drop the MM for lying to the wife.

 

I have seen posts to that, or similar, effect - where the OW suggests that in the event of that happening, she would not get together with the MM. Sometimes the point is "not at all, ever - how could I trust him?" and sometimes the point is rather, "he needs to prove himself and earn his place with me", which does allow for that view to change if the MM does the work adequately in the view of the OW - which, I guess, would be similar to the MM proving to the BS that he is doing he work required for them to be able to reconcile the M.

 

There was no DDay in our A, so I'm not sure how I would have responded had there been, but I do feel wary of decisions made under duress like that. If the MM has not reached a decision freely and informedly, but is obliged to make one in the heat of the moment, there is a good chance of him doubting the soundness of that decision for that reason alone. I personally would be far happier as an OW to know that the MM left because he felt ready to, than because he felt he needed to. But that's just me.

[silktricks]

There was no DDay in our A, so I'm not sure how I would have responded had there been, but I do feel wary of decisions made under duress like that. If the MM has not reached a decision freely and informedly, but is obliged to make one in the heat of the moment, there is a good chance of him doubting the soundness of that decision for that reason alone. I personally would be far happier as an OW to know that the MM left because he felt ready to, than because he felt he needed to. But that's just me.

The biggest problem I have with what you are saying is that in most cases the MM is not like either yours or Jennie's. In most cases, the MM is telling the OW that he wants to be with her and doesn't want to be with his wife. So, he's telling the OW that he has already made a choice - but is simply waiting for the right time to implement it. Then when the time comes, he does the deny, deny, deny thing.

 

But aside from that I do believe, as I said previously - when under stress - if a decision truly hasn't been made - it is my opinion that what is chosen then is where the heart actually lies - similar to (but of course not the same as) in vino veritas. What you say or do when "caught out" in some fashion is probably the closest to the truth that many people can ever come.

[OWoman]

The biggest problem I have with what you are saying is that in most cases the MM is not like either yours or Jennie's. In most cases, the MM is telling the OW that he wants to be with her and doesn't want to be with his wife. So, he's telling the OW that he has already made a choice - but is simply waiting for the right time to implement it. Then when the time comes, he does the deny, deny, deny thing.

 

Silk, I'm not sure that that is a decision - if they really had made one, they'd act on it (unless their "decision" is "both"... in which case they are acting on it!). I suspect that a lot of the time they're feeling under pressure from an OW who expects them to decide, and so they tell her what she wants to hear - whether or not they've settled the issue in their own minds.

 

Or, perhaps, they're like my xMIL (who has Alzheimers). When her son who lives abroad asks her if she'd like to move there, she says yes, and gets excited about it. But when her local son speaks to her about it, she denies wanting to go, gets tearful and wants to stay. I suspect that whichever woman they're with at the time, they see how wonderful she is and how much richness she adds to their lives, and really do believe they want to be with her... until they're with the other.

 

But aside from that I do believe, as I said previously - when under stress - if a decision truly hasn't been made - it is my opinion that what is chosen then is where the heart actually lies - similar to (but of course not the same as) in vino veritas. What you say or do when "caught out" in some fashion is probably the closest to the truth that many people can ever come.

 

I'm not sure about that. I think that, under stress, one opts for the decision that will bring the least stress - which is usually opting for the status quo, simply because under stress you question whether you have the resources to make a huge, stressful change that you're not sure is the right one for you. It seems that choosing the status quo could be a kind of deferral in their minds, putting off the actual making of a real decision until they feel "ready".... whenever that might be.

[silktricks]

Silk, I'm not sure that that is a decision - if they really had made one, they'd act on it (unless their "decision" is "both"... in which case they are acting on it!). I suspect that a lot of the time they're feeling under pressure from an OW who expects them to decide, and so they tell her what she wants to hear - whether or not they've settled the issue in their own minds.

Though that is, of course, possible, it is certainly not what they are telling the OW. Which brings me back to the original question of, why would the OW be accepting of multiple D-Day rejections themselves, and at the same time find fault with the BS who does the same.

 

And as a corollary why does the OW, if the MM doesn't choose her, then go on to say "once a cheater always a cheater - if he did it to you once, he'll do it again"... I would think that would make the OW feel decidedly "not" special.

 

 

 

I'm not sure about that. I think that, under stress, one opts for the decision that will bring the least stress - which is usually opting for the status quo, simply because under stress you question whether you have the resources to make a huge, stressful change that you're not sure is the right one for you. It seems that choosing the status quo could be a kind of deferral in their minds, putting off the actual making of a real decision until they feel "ready".... whenever that might be.

This is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on, as I have seen it happen enough that I feel fairly strongly about decisions made under stress showing the "true colors". Granted, they weren't about this particular subject, but that didn't make the decision any less harrowing.

[jennie-jennie]

Just curious - what do you think of the cases where the MM actually does end the affair on D-Day (or closely thereafter - like say a week)?

 

This I would say depends on what kind of affair it has been and if the affair in question had pretty much run its course.

 

I know I am often sloppy when posting, not defining that the kind of affairs I generally speak of are affairs like my own: long term extramarital relationships with a deep emotional connection between the two participants. (It was these kind of affairs I was speaking about in my post above, #130.) There are of course other kinds of affairs without such a deep level of emotional involvement, and I would think it would be much easier for a straying partner to end these affairs once they were discovered on Dday.

 

If a long term affair with a deep level of emotional involvement (hey, we need an abbreviation for this!) has pretty much run its course, then the impact of Dday added to the already dissolving affair could very likely mean the end of the affair. I am thinking this could have been the case with Spark's husband who stated he had been thinking of ending the affair six months prior to Dday, or with a husband like yours, silk, and snowflower's, who voluntarily revealed their affairs thus causing a Dday.

 

In the case of an affair still going as strong as mine when Dday hits, I am still not putting it past my MM to end our relationship on Dday. I think WheelWright described what is likely to happen the best. She said that facing her husband's pain all feelings of love for her MOM disappeared, only to return once things had settled down at home and her husband was no longer in such pain.

 

If the WS at that point (when things have settled down) decides not to reconnect with his OW but stay faithful in the marriage, I believe the risk is great for an empty-shell marriage, where the WS would be pining from time to time for his exOW. I have seen former WSs post about this years after the fact.

 

Just my 2 cents. I will learn more undoubtedly when Dday arrives.

[silktricks]

This I would say depends on what kind of affair it has been and if the affair in question had pretty much run its course.

 

I know I am often sloppy when posting, not defining that the kind of affairs I generally speak of are affairs like my own: long term extramarital relationships with a deep emotional connection between the two participants. (It was these kind of affairs I was speaking about in my post above, #130.) There are of course other kinds of affairs without such a deep level of emotional involvement, and I would think it would be much easier for a straying partner to end these affairs once they were discovered on Dday.

But, wouldn't you say that most long term EMR's would have some pretty deep emotional connection? (I'm just guessing here, as I've never been involved in one..) And... even if it isn't a deep emotional connection on the part of the MM, wouldn't he be telling her that it is???? But I do get what you're saying (I think) .

 

If a long term affair with a deep level of emotional involvement (hey, we need an abbreviation for this!)

LTEMRWDLEI :lmao:

has pretty much run its course, then the impact of Dday added to the already dissolving affair could very likely mean the end of the affair. I am thinking this could have been the case with Spark's husband who stated he had been thinking of ending the affair six months prior to Dday, or with a husband like yours, silk, and snowflower's, who voluntarily revealed their affairs thus causing a Dday.

 

In the case of an affair still going as strong as mine when Dday hits, I am still not putting it past my MM to end our relationship on Dday. I think WheelWright described what is likely to happen the best. She said that facing her husband's pain all feelings of love for her MOM disappeared, only to return once things had settled down at home and her husband was no longer in such pain.

 

If the WS at that point (when things have settled down) decides not to reconnect with his OW but stay faithful in the marriage, I believe the risk is great for an empty-shell marriage, where the WS would be pining from time to time for his exOW. I have seen former WSs post about this years after the fact.

 

Just my 2 cents. I will learn more undoubtedly when Dday arrives.

That could be. It could also be that the WS has managed to convince themselves of one or two untruths in order to carry on the affair in the first place (mine had convinced himself that I didn't love him anymore. When he saw how untrue that was, it added immeasurably to the amount of guilt he felt over his actions.)

 

Regarding the possiblity of empty-shell marriage - I would think that would depend upon the amount of restructuring and work both parties put into the rebuild. If the BS pursues the line of "you did it, you fix it", then I think you're on the money. But if both work to truly build the marriage into what both want, then I not only doubt there would be any "pining", but the WS would probably try to pretty much block out what they had done.... (again, JMO)

[jennie-jennie]

But, wouldn't you say that most long term EMR's would have some pretty deep emotional connection? (I'm just guessing here, as I've never been involved in one..) And... even if it isn't a deep emotional connection on the part of the MM, wouldn't he be telling her that it is???? But I do get what you're saying (I think) .

 

I'm not sure. Don't some men just have a lover on the side while still having the spouse as their primary relationship?

 

It is not what the MM is telling the OW about their emotional connection, it is how deep it actually is that matters on Dday.

LTEMRWDLEI :lmao:

That's a good one! I can see every newcomer's expression: :confused:

 

That could be. It could also be that the WS has managed to convince themselves of one or two untruths in order to carry on the affair in the first place (mine had convinced himself that I didn't love him anymore. When he saw how untrue that was, it added immeasurably to the amount of guilt he felt over his actions.)

Could be. I have no experience of that since my MM has never said anything like that about his wife.

Regarding the possiblity of empty-shell marriage - I would think that would depend upon the amount of restructuring and work both parties put into the rebuild. If the BS pursues the line of "you did it, you fix it", then I think you're on the money. But if both work to truly build the marriage into what both want, then I not only doubt there would be any "pining", but the WS would probably try to pretty much block out what they had done.... (again, JMO)

I think it depends on why the WS has chosen to end the affair and stay in the marriage:

 

altruistic reasons = great likelihood of empty-shell marriage in my opinion;

true love for spouse and both spouses putting in the work necessary to rebuild the marriage = great likelihood of success.

 

As long as the WS has not let go off the OM emotionally, I think it will be very hard to rebuild the marriage.

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[silktricks]

 

Could be. I have no experience of that since my MM has never said anything like that about his wife.

My husband didn't tell his OW that either - but it was what he thought. It was almost the first thing out of his mouth when he told me about the affair.

I think it depends on why the WS has chosen to end the affair and stay in the marriage:

 

altruistic reasons = great likelihood of empty-shell marriage in my opinion;

true love for spouse and both spouses putting in the work necessary to rebuild the marriage = great likelihood of success.

 

As long as the WS has not let go off the OM emotionally, I think it will be very hard to rebuild the marriage.

Don't forget - altruistic love is still love, and a necessary component of any good relationship. Even if an affair is ended initially due only to altruism doesn't mean the marriage cannot be fully worked on by both partners - but I would definitely agree that if the WS won't (or can't) let go of the OW/OM emotionally, the marriage cannot truly be rebuilt.

 

I wonder, though, your MM has told you that he feels he has a "private" life that he shares with you and a "public" life he shares with his wife. He doesn't tell his wife anything about his private life. Do you think it's possible that he doesn't tell you things as well? That he's a little more "murky" than he is letting on even to you?

[jennie-jennie]

My husband didn't tell his OW that either - but it was what he thought. It was almost the first thing out of his mouth when he told me about the affair.

I am certain that in the case of my MM, he still believes his wife loves him.

Don't forget - altruistic love is still love, and a necessary component of any good relationship. Even if an affair is ended initially due only to altruism doesn't mean the marriage cannot be fully worked on by both partners - but I would definitely agree that if the WS won't (or can't) let go of the OW/OM emotionally, the marriage cannot truly be rebuilt.

Agreed.

I wonder, though, your MM has told you that he feels he has a "private" life that he shares with you and a "public" life he shares with his wife. He doesn't tell his wife anything about his private life. Do you think it's possible that he doesn't tell you things as well? That he's a little more "murky" than he is letting on even to you?

I don't think so, because it was with such a sense of relief he told me his inner secrets. And... my secrets are much darker than his, so he has no reason to be afraid of telling me. He knows all of mine.

 

We met as young teenagers, both innocent and naive. Then we met again closing up on 50. By then I had been the bad girl, and done all kinds of murky stuff, but he had been the good boy, always doing the right thing. We had gone down such different paths in life, and yet when we met again, we had this immediate connection and found that we look at life from such a similar perspective.

 

It is interesting how little the core of a human being must change between 15 and 50. To fall in love with the same person twice in a life time is quite an experience.

[silktricks]

We met as young teenagers, both innocent and naive. Then we met again closing up on 50. By then I had been the bad girl, and done all kinds of murky stuff, but he had been the good boy, always doing the right thing. We had gone down such different paths in life, and yet when we met again, we had this immediate connection and found that we look at life from such a similar perspective.

 

It is interesting how little the core of a human being must change between 15 and 50. To fall in love with the same person twice in a life time is quite an experience.

I agree. I don't truly feel all that different from what I felt at 15. The same things (at root) are important to me. To reconnect with someone from your past, with whom you had already shared much could indeed be an experience - maybe that's why facebook and classmates and reunion are such popular sites.... to provide that possibility of finding someone you lost but still yearn for.