Chronological Catch 22

[jennie-jennie]

When I was young, I met a young man who deeply affected the way I look at relationships and sex. He taught me how to enjoy love, lust and sex in a very positive way.

 

Later in life my relationship with my MM started. I could see him being affected by me in the same positive way I had once been affected by that young man. My MM came to understand that a relationship can be more than what he had had with his wife.

 

The chronological order is important here. My MM now wonders, what if he had brought this into his marriage with his wife. He knows what they had before his affair, but could they have more now that he has changed? Now that he has shared his innermost thoughts, his former secret world, with another woman, could he do that with his wife as well?

 

I have seen other MM be in this Catch 22 position as well. They feel they have not done all they could for their marriage, since they have not given to the marriage what they have given to the extramarital relationship. Yet they have never been able to do that earlier because they did not have it available to them before the affair, and now they can't either because they are involved with another woman.

 

To the OW this is more or less an insult. I was the one who had this impact on you, and now you want to share it with your wife? It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible? They had many years of marriage, perhaps decades of marriage behind them, not having this kind of relationship. Is it enough that the MM has now changed because of the extramarital relationship? And is it at all possible to transfer what he has with the OW to the relationship with his wife?

 

So the MM knows what he had with his wife before the affair, and that is no longer enough for him, which is why he reached outside the marriage. But having learnt what he was missing, can he bring that knowledge with him back into the marriage and expect to find it there? Or is it tied to the bond he now has formed with the OW?

[califnan]

Jennie, As I have said before - I think the marrital bond is strong because of my own beliefs of the reverance of marriage because the union is that of God.

 

Others would think that they at least said their wedding vows to each other consumating an important agreement..

 

While the OW frequently is able to pry the man loose from the marriage.. I still think the MM Uses the OW - to ingratiate his life, marriage..

 

I have no idea if later in life the MM is able to transfer to his wife, that that he has learned from his OW .. the wife would have to be receptive to it and a willing partner.

[whichwayisup]

Of course it's possible. But, no MM in his right mind is going to tell his OW that he is now using x,y,z with his wife, the stuff he learned from his OW. That would be just plain dumb on his behalf and he'd lose what he built up with the OW.

[califnan]

Of course it's possible. But, no MM in his right mind is going to tell his OW that he is now using x,y,z with his wife, the stuff he learned from his OW. That would be just plain dumb on his behalf and he'd lose what he built up with the OW.

 

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Jennie, is your MM "in his right mind" ..

[Mimolicious]

It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible?

 

Maybe MM really wants to be with his W and he just wishes that she does/have the things that OW does (kinda to make her 100% what he wants). Has it ever occured to you that maybe MM wants his W to have more of OW than OW to have more of his W?

 

It's like tasting a better recipe, yet going back to your original one and just add the few missing ingredients. You love the way yours taste but it would never be the same after tasting another one, so you 2.0 yours.

 

Think about it, if he went home and discreetly (not like he can come out after 25yrs and say "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!":p) taught his W all that he got going with you, W puts it to practice, wouldn't that make her a full package for him?

 

But if we can only have all we want!

 

Oh and I am not implying to YOUR MM. I'm just playing out a scenario.

[jennie-jennie]

Of course it's possible. But, no MM in his right mind is going to tell his OW that he is now using x,y,z with his wife, the stuff he learned from his OW. That would be just plain dumb on his behalf and he'd lose what he built up with the OW.

 

And no wife would be happy if the MM told her: If you could just become more like my OW then our marriage would be great! But truth be told, that is actually what the MM is hoping for.

[Circular]

It's an interesting question but I think it ignores all the other elements of the relationship you've developed with your MM. I know from my experience that there were some great things about my xAP and things she did that if I could integrate them into my M I wouldn't have felt so attached to my A but each human relationship is unique.

 

At the end of the day though even if as I my introduce some of those things into the relationship my BS has to be willing to accept those changes, and do those things - but there's a different element, hard to quantify, but my BS can't replace that uniqueness of my xAP, nor vice versa. For me I realized that both my AP and my BS had qualities that were uniquely theirs that made the things they did special in their own way, but unfortunately not transferable between them. I suppose an analogy would be one being a trombone player, the other a singer... both musically inclined but their unique skills not interchangeable.

[bananalaffytaffy]

You took what you learned from the young man and transferred it to your MM years later. Why couldn't your MM take what he learned from you and transfer it to his wife years later? If they have been together long, surely they still have some kind of bond. With a little effort, they could come out stronger than ever. I guess that would be insulting to an OW who wants their MM to leave. However, if a MM is so unhappy that he's cheating, why would he want to use the things on the W when he has the OW? I guess someone who wants to have a great marriage and a great affair might do that, but then they aren't really having a great anything if they are still cheating. So I would think for a MM to take what he learned to repair his M completely, he'd have to do it with the OW out of the picture, wouldn't he? Or just use it to make the M more enjoyable, thus less incentive to leave for the OW.

 

I can definitely see where that would be a catch 22.

[jennie-jennie]

Maybe MM really wants to be with his W and he just wishes that she does/have the things that OW does (kinda to make her 100% what he wants). Has it ever occured to you that maybe MM wants his W to have more of OW than OW to have more of his W?

 

It's like tasting a better recipe, yet going back to your original one and just add the few missing ingredients. You love the way yours taste but it would never be the same after tasting another one, so you 2.0 yours.

 

Think about it, if he went home and discreetly (not like he can come out after 25yrs and say "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!":p) taught his W all that he got going with you, W puts it to practice, wouldn't that make her a full package for him?

 

But if we can only have all we want!

 

Oh and I am not implying to YOUR MM. I'm just playing out a scenario.

 

Yeah, it is like trying to find the secret ingredient from your neighbor's recipe. But, d*mn, it just does not taste the same.

[awkward]

Of course it's possible. But, no MM in his right mind is going to tell his OW that he is now using x,y,z with his wife, the stuff he learned from his OW. That would be just plain dumb on his behalf and he'd lose what he built up with the OW.

 

I don't know if he was in his right mind or not, but I remember KG posting about her MM doing this. And he did lose her.

[califnan]

And no wife would be happy if the MM told her: If you could just become more like my OW then our marriage would be great! But truth be told, that is actually what the MM is hoping for.

 

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It's like the fork in the road - either she swallows her pride, and goes along with the program - or he continues to be the cake eater ...

 

Or, either way - he continues to be the cake eater ..

[jennie-jennie]

Maybe MM really wants to be with his W and he just wishes that she does/have the things that OW does (kinda to make her 100% what he wants). Has it ever occured to you that maybe MM wants his W to have more of OW than OW to have more of his W?

 

It's like tasting a better recipe, yet going back to your original one and just add the few missing ingredients. You love the way yours taste but it would never be the same after tasting another one, so you 2.0 yours.

 

Think about it, if he went home and discreetly (not like he can come out after 25yrs and say "LOOK WHAT I CAN DO!":p) taught his W all that he got going with you, W puts it to practice, wouldn't that make her a full package for him?

 

But if we can only have all we want!

 

Oh and I am not implying to YOUR MM. I'm just playing out a scenario.

 

Seriously, his wife would have to go through a fundamental inner change process as well. Kind of funny to think that it was the OW who initiated all this change.

[whichwayisup]

And no wife would be happy if the MM told her: If you could just become more like my OW then our marriage would be great! But truth be told, that is actually what the MM is hoping for.

 

Difference is, the wife is not privy to the fact he's actually having an affair. An OW knows he's married and choosing to stay in the affair.

 

If your MM tells his wife, "Can you be more like OW?" or along those lines, I'm sure she's going to kick him out and then he'll be yours alone, for sure.

[whichwayisup]

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It's like the fork in the road - either she swallows her pride, and goes along with the program - or he continues to be the cake eater ...

 

Or, either way - he continues to be the cake eater ..

 

Unless the wife has someone on the side too and doesn't care. Then, everyone eats cake!

[jennie-jennie]

It's an interesting question but I think it ignores all the other elements of the relationship you've developed with your MM. I know from my experience that there were some great things about my xAP and things she did that if I could integrate them into my M I wouldn't have felt so attached to my A but each human relationship is unique.

 

This is just what I was getting at. I like your posts, Circular. Welcome to LS.

[jennie-jennie]

I don't know if he was in his right mind or not, but I remember KG posting about her MM doing this. And he did lose her.

 

KismetGirl, but that was sexual "tricks". That is not what I am talking about. It is much deeper than that. More a general attitude, outlook on life, relationships and sex. A deep profound inner change.

 

This is how my MM described it: He felt like he watched his personality as he had known it burn up.

[jennie-jennie]

Difference is, the wife is not privy to the fact he's actually having an affair. An OW knows he's married and choosing to stay in the affair.

 

If your MM tells his wife, "Can you be more like OW?" or along those lines, I'm sure she's going to kick him out and then he'll be yours alone, for sure.

 

Isn't that pretty much what LostIt has been posting about on the Infidelity forum, and yet she has given him chance after chance again? It does happen you know.

[jennie-jennie]

Unless the wife has someone on the side too and doesn't care. Then, everyone eats cake!

 

They could use the fork!

[awkward]

KismetGirl, but that was sexual "tricks". That is not what I am talking about. It is much deeper than that. More a general attitude, outlook on life, relationships and sex. A deep profound inner change.

 

This is how my MM described it: He felt like he watched his personality as he had known it burn up.

 

Wouldn't it be easier and a guarantee that he'd have all that if he married his OW? She would then be the wife.

[califnan]

This is just what I was getting at. I like your posts, Circular. Welcome to LS.

 

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Yes, I thought it was an insightful post of Circular as well - and from experience..

 

Of course the MM would continue to want both women and for who they are.. Why wouldn't he.

[jennie-jennie]

Wouldn't it be easier and a guarantee that he'd have all that if he married his OW? She would then be the wife.

 

But the OW is not the mother of his children, she is not the woman he has vowed to provide and care for, she is not the one who is sharing the house he lives in.

 

I think Circular said it well above:

 

At the end of the day though even if as I may introduce some of those things into the relationship my BS has to be willing to accept those changes, and do those things - but there's a different element, hard to quantify, but my BS can't replace that uniqueness of my xAP, nor vice versa. For me I realized that both my AP and my BS had qualities that were uniquely theirs that made the things they did special in their own way, but unfortunately not transferable between them. I suppose an analogy would be one being a trombone player, the other a singer... both musically inclined but their unique skills not interchangeable.

[Circular]

This is just what I was getting at. I like your posts, Circular. Welcome to LS.

 

 

Thanks I've found everyone's point of view very helpful in reconciling what I'm going through right now after breaking it off with my AP. It's been extremely hard but for now it's the right thing. I say for now because we left it open for later down the road when the timing is better.

 

It would seem your MM is wanting to try an uphill battle as trying to change someone, their points of view, etc... isn't easy - I know I've tried for 20 years. Some people are very open to change, new views, new perspectives assessing their lives and dynamically integrating change and others simply will not or will for a short period of time to be appeasing and then rollback. It's that rollback that can lead to exasperation and put everyone back to square one.

 

I know I like to look at the world with new eyes everyday. I see grey instead of black/white, I think limits should be tested, boundaries tested, but I'm a very experiential person it's how I operate to learn and grow.

[jthorne]

Did he really say that? Could it have been some terribly misguided, insensitive way of saying "why can't my W be more like you?"

If somebody I loved said something like that to me, I'd be changing my facebook R status back to single real quick. It wasn't even said to me, and my feelings are hurt.

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks I've found everyone's point of view very helpful in reconciling what I'm going through right now after breaking it off with my AP. It's been extremely hard but for now it's the right thing. I say for now because we left it open for later down the road when the timing is better.

 

It would seem your MM is wanting to try an uphill battle as trying to change someone, their points of view, etc... isn't easy - I know I've tried for 20 years. Some people are very open to change, new views, new perspectives assessing their lives and dynamically integrating change and others simply will not or will for a short period of time to be appeasing and then rollback. It's that rollback that can lead to exasperation and put everyone back to square one.

 

I know I like to look at the world with new eyes everyday. I see grey instead of black/white, I think limits should be tested, boundaries tested, but I'm a very experiential person it's how I operate to learn and grow.

 

Yes, my MM is wondering if he had been back then (when he met his wife) like he is today, how would their marriage have been, had they even been married. I don't know if I can explain the frustration he is feeling of not knowing this. Yet he is not prepared to let me go either.

[califnan]

I think the OW is the putty for the MM's life / marriage .. or how about the frosting on the cake..

 

A whole complete woman should not have to vie for his attention .. or the fraction of his life..