Chronological Catch 22

[jennie-jennie]

Did he really say that? Could it have been some terribly misguided, insensitive way of saying "why can't my W be more like you?"

If somebody I loved said something like that to me, I'd be changing my facebook R status back to single real quick. It wasn't even said to me, and my feelings are hurt.

 

We talk about everything. LOL And my Facebook status is single anyway since our last roller coaster.

[silktricks]

Doncha just love it I think it depends. Is it possible??? Probably. But that possibility would largely be dependent upon the depth of difference between the OW and BS - AND the method by which the MM attempted to effect the change.

 

People can and do change constantly - and most of the time they don't even realize they are changing. If an MM was extremely patient AND his wife loves him then, yes he could almost undoubtedly help her grow to "fit" his new dimensions.

 

But it's doubtful he could extend that kind of patience while in an affair with a woman who already provides the extended range of emotion and life.

 

JMO

[jennie-jennie]

Why is there the assumptions that the the OW knows all this stuff about the MM that the wife, who has been by his side for possibly decades, doesn't already know about?

 

So my MM had this part of himself that he shared with nobody, his secret world if you want. Then I came along and he let me into his secret world. Just like nobody was aware of that part of him, nobody (except me) is aware that I am there.

 

You see a MM already has a relationship. He wants something more. So he is not afraid of showing his real self, his inner thoughts, because otherwise he is not interested in yet a relationship. He has nothing to lose by showing who he really is.

[Circular]

So my MM had this part of himself that he shared with nobody, his secret world if you want. Then I came along and he let me into his secret world. Just like nobody was aware of that part of him, nobody (except me) is aware that I am there.

 

You see a MM already has a relationship. He wants something more. So he is not afraid of showing his real self, his inner thoughts, because otherwise he is not interested in yet a relationship. He has nothing to lose by showing who he really is.

 

Interesting, this is exactly how it was with me and my AP, I finally got to be me and feel fully integrated as part of a relationship. I feel I didn't have to hide parts of who I am, instead it was acceptance for what was.

[califnan]

While the MM hasn't discussed the OW with the wife .. He can fee free to discuss the W to the OW .. after all it's part of the deal that the OW knows he is married. This can also make him appear more chatty with the OW about other things ..

 

I'm sure there are things he keeps inside - from either woman .. (except for certain slips of the tongue) ..

[ladydesigner]

See I am not sure about this now. Although I can understand the many posts which are great and this thread is too, my XAP would not have enriched my M in any way whatsoever. He was so completely different from my H. What I found in my XAP was what had been missing in my M for years (the emotional connection and attention), but had been there prior. My XAP in the long run would have made me more miserable than I was when my M was at its lowest point. But I certainly understand those who met someone who far surpassed their BS (that would be hard), my XAP did not.

[califnan]

See I am not sure about this now. Although I can understand the many posts which are great and this thread is too, my XAP would not have enriched my M in any way whatsoever. He was so completely different from my H. What I found in my XAP was what had been missing in my M for years (the emotional connection and attention), but had been there prior. My XAP in the long run would have made me more miserable than I was when my M was at its lowest point. But I certainly understand those who met someone who far surpassed their BS (that would be hard), my XAP did not.

 

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What I was trying to say LD .. Is that if a MM (for instance) has both the W & the OW .. he is a happier camper ... Marriage is probably happier because of his guilt (nicer to the wife) and fulfillment. Life is probably nicer because he has two women instead of one..

[ladydesigner]

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What I was trying to say LD .. Is that if a MM (for instance) has both the W & the OW .. he is a happier camper ... Marriage is probably happier because of his guilt (nicer to the wife) and fulfillment. Life is probably nicer because he has two women instead of one..

 

I see I can understand this. I guess men can do that better than women. I couldn't separate the two. I was actually not that nice to my H during my A

[califnan]

I just got reminded of that 1978 movie Same Time Next Year with Alan Alda and Ellen Burstyn .. Of course he can be more excited and chatty with the OW .. she knows more about his life..

[califnan]

I guess it's like therapy session for these guys Hockeyfan .. Aside from telling the W and OW their innermost ... he is even telling his secretary ..

 

My husband's secretary disclosed things to me that she thought he hadn't told any others .. yes right .. ha

[jwi71]

Later in life my relationship with my MM started. I could see him being affected by me in the same positive way I had once been affected by that young man. My MM came to understand that a relationship can be more than what he had had with his wife.

 

You mean how can he get his W to fill the voids YOU fill? IE, how can he get his W to adopt the qualities YOU bring to HIS life?

 

Well, the smartazz answer is to tell the wife (there would be a hint of truth to that though)

 

Not so smartazz answer: impossible.

 

You are you and his W is his W. You each have strengths and weaknesses. You each offer something to HIS life and in both HE finds fulfillment. HE has zero reason to tell his W. Why end his perfectly fulfilled life and simultaneously bring the wrath of his W, friends, family, etc. Only a man who is looking to leave will do that. Which, in the vernacular of my post means his W, in his mind, no longer fulfills many/any needs. The M is done. HE just needed the soft landing (or "reason to leave").

 

The flip side is also true...he won't leave the W for the W out of fear the OW will fail to meet all his needs (ie his W meets those) not too mention BOTH fill his voids so why pick one to begin with (and possibly wind up with unmet needs - again).

 

My MM now wonders, what if he had brought this into his marriage with his wife.

I bet he thinks this more often than he lets on.

The better is question for you JJ is WHY he would think this as opposed to "Can JJ meet all my needs"?

This seems like a retreat from the A imo.

 

He knows what they had before his affair, but could they have more now that he has changed?

No. Because he has learned that instead of working with his W and working internally, he goes outside the M. The ONLY way he recaptures "that" with his W is to end the A and actually WORK at the M. And we all know its impossible to work on the M when the A is still alive and kicking.

 

So, if he wants this with his W, he has to let you go.

 

I wonder if those thoughts haven't begun creeping into his mind.

Now that he has shared his innermost thoughts, his former secret world, with another woman, could he do that with his wife as well?

Of course he can...and who says he hasn't?

There are clearly communication issues in the M and within himself.

 

I have seen other MM be in this Catch 22 position as well

Its NOT a catch 22. Its a choice. And like every choice that every human makes there will always be "the path not taken".

 

I think you will want to claim split-self here. But its not. I think its MUCH simpler...one or the other. But he won't choose because then he must give up his perfectly fulfilled life. And wth would he do that? He would need iron clad guarantee that whomever he picks will "be enough". Except we have a problem here.

 

HE already KNOWS the M and the W aren't enough. So why hasn't he left for one who MIGHT be enough?

 

Answer: (no, not split self) He doesn't believe you will be enough coupled with...why leave now that he has it all?

 

I don't say this as attack (the you are not enough bits)...I say it because its what I think he is doing and why.

 

. They feel they have not done all they could for their marriage, since they have not given to the marriage what they have given to the extramarital relationship. Yet they have never been able to do that earlier because they did not have it available to them before the affair, and now they can't either because they are involved with another woman.

Of course they haven't done "enough in the M". Nor will they. Again, with all their needs met their is little incentive to act. And they don't.

But, if they wanted to apply "lessons learned" from the A to their M they could. However, they have shown in actions a lack of communication to begin with (hence the A) and I wouldn't count on them starting now that they are in wrapped up in the A.

To the OW this is more or less an insult. I was the one who had this impact on you, and now you want to share it with your wife?

Not to be rude but the W is almost the primary R in the MM's mind.

Their ACTIONS support this.

 

It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible?

Of course it is. After all, the MM built this bond with the OW.

The better Q is why the OW and not the W?

I wouldn't ask though...you'd sound more like a shrink and less like the OW (ie, no longer the escape/fantasy and more like nagging W).

 

Is it enough that the MM has now changed because of the extramarital relationship?

ACTIONS...what do his ACTIONS say?

 

And is it at all possible to transfer what he has with the OW to the relationship with his wife?

Answered above but in a nutshell yes.

 

So the MM knows what he had with his wife before the affair, and that is no longer enough for him, which is why he reached outside the marriage. But having learnt what he was missing, can he bring that knowledge with him back into the marriage and expect to find it there? Or is it tied to the bond he now has formed with the OW?

I do not believe it is the OW. Rather its the bond. The filled voids.

[pureinheart]

I know I changed exDM's life forever. This was not intentional on my part, he told me various things and I gave my opinion. ExDM was a deep person that lived a shallow life. My influence caused him to see the depth he was missing. Not so much concerning "me", but that life could be different and better.

 

He learned that there was an escape route, his W did also...

[whichwayisup]

You are you and his W is his W. You each have strengths and weaknesses. You each offer something to HIS life and in both HE finds fulfillment. HE has zero reason to tell his W. Why end his perfectly fulfilled life and simultaneously bring the wrath of his W, friends, family, etc. Only a man who is looking to leave will do that. Which, in the vernacular of my post means his W, in his mind, no longer fulfills many/any needs. The M is done. HE just needed the soft landing (or "reason to leave").

 

He isn't going to leave his marriage or end the affair. He likes having two women meeting all his needs. He's gotten used to it!

 

The only way things will change is 1)MM's wife finds out (and I'm not talking about suspicions, or red flags, I mean a full on D-Day) or 2)JJ walks away. Her MM seems like the type of guy who doesn't want to be the bad guy, ever. So, it's easier on him to do nothing and keep the status quo. Stay married and be in the affair with JJ.

[NoIDidn't]

You mean how can he get his W to fill the voids YOU fill? IE, how can he get his W to adopt the qualities YOU bring to HIS life?

 

Well, the smartazz answer is to tell the wife (there would be a hint of truth to that though)

 

Not so smartazz answer: impossible.

 

You are you and his W is his W. You each have strengths and weaknesses. You each offer something to HIS life and in both HE finds fulfillment. HE has zero reason to tell his W. Why end his perfectly fulfilled life and simultaneously bring the wrath of his W, friends, family, etc. Only a man who is looking to leave will do that. Which, in the vernacular of my post means his W, in his mind, no longer fulfills many/any needs. The M is done. HE just needed the soft landing (or "reason to leave").

 

The flip side is also true...he won't leave the W for the W out of fear the OW will fail to meet all his needs (ie his W meets those) not too mention BOTH fill his voids so why pick one to begin with (and possibly wind up with unmet needs - again).

 

I bet he thinks this more often than he lets on.

The better is question for you JJ is WHY he would think this as opposed to "Can JJ meet all my needs"?

This seems like a retreat from the A imo.

 

No. Because he has learned that instead of working with his W and working internally, he goes outside the M. The ONLY way he recaptures "that" with his W is to end the A and actually WORK at the M. And we all know its impossible to work on the M when the A is still alive and kicking.

 

So, if he wants this with his W, he has to let you go.

 

I wonder if those thoughts haven't begun creeping into his mind.

Of course he can...and who says he hasn't?

There are clearly communication issues in the M and within himself.

 

Its NOT a catch 22. Its a choice. And like every choice that every human makes there will always be "the path not taken".

 

I think you will want to claim split-self here. But its not. I think its MUCH simpler...one or the other. But he won't choose because then he must give up his perfectly fulfilled life. And wth would he do that? He would need iron clad guarantee that whomever he picks will "be enough". Except we have a problem here.

 

HE already KNOWS the M and the W aren't enough. So why hasn't he left for one who MIGHT be enough?

 

Answer: (no, not split self) He doesn't believe you will be enough coupled with...why leave now that he has it all?

 

I don't say this as attack (the you are not enough bits)...I say it because its what I think he is doing and why.

 

Of course they haven't done "enough in the M". Nor will they. Again, with all their needs met their is little incentive to act. And they don't.

But, if they wanted to apply "lessons learned" from the A to their M they could. However, they have shown in actions a lack of communication to begin with (hence the A) and I wouldn't count on them starting now that they are in wrapped up in the A.

Not to be rude but the W is almost the primary R in the MM's mind.

Their ACTIONS support this.

 

Of course it is. After all, the MM built this bond with the OW.

The better Q is why the OW and not the W?

I wouldn't ask though...you'd sound more like a shrink and less like the OW (ie, no longer the escape/fantasy and more like nagging W).

 

ACTIONS...what do his ACTIONS say?

 

Answered above but in a nutshell yes.

 

I do not believe it is the OW. Rather its the bond. The filled voids.

 

Great post, jwi!

 

I just took what he said to mean that he wants his M more and wants his M to include the feelings he's had in the A.

 

Sounds very much like he considers his M his primary R and not the A. Not only do his actions match, but his words do as well. If he considered the A his primary R, this conversation would not have even happened.

 

Plus, this question is just like the thread where the MM said he would marry the OW if he wasn't already married. That's the chronological part. This wanting to add the things the OW learned from another many years ago into his M, without having had to have the A is what it sounds like he is desiring, IMO.

[SavannahSmiles]

Interesting, this is exactly how it was with me and my AP, I finally got to be me and feel fully integrated as part of a relationship. I feel I didn't have to hide parts of who I am, instead it was acceptance for what was.

 

 

I'm confused. What parts did you have to hide from your H? Are these parts you've had to hide from his since before you married him? If so, why marry someone at all that you have hide anything from? Or better yet, why stay married to someone you have to hide something from? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm a curious one.

[JustJoe]

Jennie, in your case, it was your influence on him that has caused this introspective situation, and has made him aware of what a really good relationship could be, but what if it were something else that caused the epiphany? What if it was a friend or neighbor's wonderful, full filling marriage that spurred his re-evaluation? What if it was a religious conversion, a magazine article, a movie or TV program? Or a change in his Wife's attitude? We are all influenced by many things, and different factors have different levels of importance at different times, so you shouldn't be insulted, because it, literally could have been almost anything.

[jennie-jennie]

Doncha just love it I think it depends. Is it possible??? Probably. But that possibility would largely be dependent upon the depth of difference between the OW and BS - AND the method by which the MM attempted to effect the change.

 

People can and do change constantly - and most of the time they don't even realize they are changing. If an MM was extremely patient AND his wife loves him then, yes he could almost undoubtedly help her grow to "fit" his new dimensions.

 

But it's doubtful he could extend that kind of patience while in an affair with a woman who already provides the extended range of emotion and life.

 

JMO

 

Interesting answer, silk. This could very well be the case.

 

But isn't it an insult to the wife that the extramarital relationship has affected her husband in such a profound way? I understand he is not likely to tell her this is what has happened, but to you as a BS, what do you think about it?

[jennie-jennie]

so, to help me understand, people are saying that the wife, who was courted and pursued by the man, who he shared himself with, withheld parts of who he is, his dreams, his mistakes, his innermost thoughts to the woman he had an affair with, as opposed to the wife who he picked to make a life with?

 

so when he courted his wife, he held back information on who he is? he didn't tell her about a painful or hurtful experience as a child? a fear he had growing up? he never felt comfortable enough with the woman he chose to marry to confide in her?

 

he instead held in that information, buried it deep, until someone he decided to cheat on his wife with came along and he shared with her this information?

 

so why did he marry this woman (the wife) if he didn't feel like he could talk to her? why would he pursue her, build a life with her, if he did not feel like he could be himself with her? why would he chose to withhold this?

 

or am I not reading this right? I guess I just can't image not sharing 'me' with my husband. I do not understand why he would not share himself with me? how do these MM know that someone else would come along in his life that he could share this information with? I know that with my husband, once we realized we were serious and we were in it for keeps, we both shared many things with each other about our pasts. I mean, it is almost as if posters are suggesting that the 2 people who married didn't talk to each other, didn't plan a future together, didn't chose to share themselves with each other. as if they just decided to 'get married' yet never communicate with each other about who they were and discuss their pasts, their future plans, meshing their lives together.

 

(I feel like a 5 year old with all the "why" questions ) I just do not understand this train of thought; that the only one who knows the real MM/MW is the OW/OM and the wife/husband is just clueless about the person they married. isn't the wife/husband only clueless about the fact that their spouse is cheating or possibly unhappy in the marriage?

 

I am just conveying what my MM has said, that there is a part of him he has never shared with his wife.

 

I know in the beginning of their relationship it was, you know, you want the other person to like you. You have no relationship and then you meet this woman you like and you want to show the best you. I guess there were parts of him he never decided to show to her, parts of him that he kept to himself all these years.

[whichwayisup]

I know in the beginning of their relationship it was, you know, you want the other person to like you. You have no relationship and then you meet this woman you like and you want to show the best you. I guess there were parts of him he never decided to show to her, parts of him that he kept to himself all these years.

 

Yet he claims to be quite happy in his marriage.

 

JJ, you know him and trust him. But - You are not privy to his intimate and personal experiences at home with his wife. There's always a chance what he's told you isn't exactly true.

 

One thing to think about, the more you talk about the A, his marriage, how different he is with you, compared to what he has with his wife.. It's these types of situations that are scary in the sense (sorry to be morbid here) but if he dies, and his wife finds out about you, this seems like a true case of a 'double life'. He is one way with you, another way with her. He provides for you, spends money on you, bonds with you and your children. Then he goes home and does the same thing with his wife..

[NoIDidn't]

I am just conveying what my MM has said, that there is a part of him he has never shared with his wife.

 

I know in the beginning of their relationship it was, you know, you want the other person to like you. You have no relationship and then you meet this woman you like and you want to show the best you. I guess there were parts of him he never decided to show to her, parts of him that he kept to himself all these years.

 

I can understand his saying this. I think we all do this in all Rs. Its not that we meant to hide it, just that it doesn't have the opportunity to come up or out and just remains dormant.

[jennie-jennie]

The flip side is also true...he won't leave the W for the OW out of fear the OW will fail to meet all his needs (ie his W meets those) not too mention BOTH fill his voids so why pick one to begin with (and possibly wind up with unmet needs - again).

 

I want to highlight this part of your post, jwi, because I think it is an important truth in the life of a MM. The MM is afraid he will end up regretting his move if he divorces his wife, end up feeling empty inside, be it because he betrayed the parts of himself which tell him to provide and care and be a good husband, or some other need the wife fills.

[Circular]

I'm confused. What parts did you have to hide from your H? Are these parts you've had to hide from his since before you married him? If so, why marry someone at all that you have hide anything from? Or better yet, why stay married to someone you have to hide something from? Sorry for so many questions, but I'm a curious one.

 

Role reversed, I'm the H. We met young, I was eager to impress and I wouldn't use the word hide exactly maybe better to use the words compromised out. I compromised out a lot of things and I followed the path I thought was right at the time and keep the relationship running smoothly. I guess at the time I assumed I could get along without those things and due to her sensitivities I felt I was was doing what was expected of me - basically changing some core pieces of myself. Adapting to what I thought the ideal was.

 

Fast forward 20 years, guess what, those things are still part of me. And I had the realization that I had been suppressing certain aspects of my personality, things I liked to do, etc... some stuff as simple as my style of humor. Those things are very difficult to re-integrate back in without a lot of boat rocking. It's why when JJ asks the question I think there are much deeper things at play that sent her MM in her direction to begin with, she just brought more to his life but that core piece is still critical.

 

Why stay married? I'm still working through that piece because I obviously have a bigger internal issue than I originally thought.

 

One thing I will say I was happiest with my AP and it balanced with my W. There are good/bad traits in both of them. The thing about my AP is I understood when I met her better who I was and she fit the bill perfectly.

Edited June 10, 2010 by Circular

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie, in your case, it was your influence on him that has caused this introspective situation, and has made him aware of what a really good relationship could be, but what if it were something else that caused the epiphany? What if it was a friend or neighbor's wonderful, full filling marriage that spurred his re-evaluation? What if it was a religious conversion, a magazine article, a movie or TV program? Or a change in his Wife's attitude? We are all influenced by many things, and different factors have different levels of importance at different times, so you shouldn't be insulted, because it, literally could have been almost anything.

 

I don't think so. I saw what happened to me in my young years happen to my MM now. I think you need the force of love for this to happen. But you also have to be receptive for this kind of change. I was the same person with my exSO, but he was not influenced by me in this way.

 

Falling in love can be the beginning of a revolution in your life.

[JustJoe]

Yes, it can.:love::love:

[jennie-jennie]

Yet he claims to be quite happy in his marriage.

 

JJ, you know him and trust him. But - You are not privy to his intimate and personal experiences at home with his wife. There's always a chance what he's told you isn't exactly true.

 

One thing to think about, the more you talk about the A, his marriage, how different he is with you, compared to what he has with his wife.. It's these types of situations that are scary in the sense (sorry to be morbid here) but if he dies, and his wife finds out about you, this seems like a true case of a 'double life'. He is one way with you, another way with her. He provides for you, spends money on you, bonds with you and your children. Then he goes home and does the same thing with his wife..

 

As happy as you can be with no sex and intimacy that is.

 

Yep, he is leading a double life, but it is not easy on him.