Chronological Catch 22

[Fieldsofgold]

hmmm - I disagree. My husband was NEVER so mean and overall crappy to me as when he was cheating. He had to work to convince himself that I really was all that he had rewritten me to be, so that he had a good "excuse" to cheat. Though possibly it does work this way for some.

 

Same here!!!

[jennie-jennie]

.... I was the one who had this impact on you, and now you want to share it with your wife? It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible?

The dymanics of an affair exist ONLY in an affair. If the APs marry, its no longer an affair - good or bad - dynamics DO change.

Your MM is basically saying that everything would be perfect if only he could have an affiar with his wife!! Its insulting yes, but not possible for what its worth.

 

Not agreeing with you here, since I have experienced the same dynamics in a regular long term relationship.

[Owl]

I get your point on the Catch 22 the way that you describe it.

 

Like I said before though...it's one created solely by his own mindset. And one that I doubt that he's going to have the wherewithal to do anything about.

 

Either you or his wife will be the ones to break his ennui.

[jennie-jennie]

I agree with this. I don't think you can adapt your M while you have an OW as you need to be 100% emotionally available and focused on the relationship your trying to rebuild and reintegrate into.

 

I don't know if I agree with the 2nd paragraph. Being that the way things played out and I broke off my A I'm trying to reintegrate some of those things myself as I realized keeping them in a tupperware box was lethal to my well being. Some of those things I can bring in and am BUT my W isn't my OW they are different people there were things uniquely different about my OW that complimented those parts of me. I can't teach my W for example how to get a sense of humor that compliments mine, that's just a simple example.

 

Very interesting, Circular, thank you.

 

I think this is what scares my MM. He does not know if he can reintegrate his entire self into the marriage, or if this was/is only possible with me.

 

How are you going to deal with not being able to reintegrate things which are essential to your well being?

[jennie-jennie]

I get your point on the Catch 22 the way that you describe it.

 

Like I said before though...it's one created solely by his own mindset. And one that I doubt that he's going to have the wherewithal to do anything about.

 

Either you or his wife will be the ones to break his ennui.

 

Might be so. I am hoping he drags his sorry @ss to therapy.

[jennie-jennie]

He sleeps in their bed almost every night and they don't ever have sex, or any type of intimacy? No cuddles, no hugging, no holding hands, no massages, back scratches, no sex - Yet he claims to have a happy marriage, he does love his wife and really can't say that much bad about her or their marriage? Only 2 that know the 'real' truth there are him and his wife. He can tell you nothing ever is going on between them..

 

It is five years ago since he made the remark of having a happy marriage. I don't think he believes a marriage with such a big elephant in the room as a long term extramarital relationship, no sex, no intimacy, qualifies as a happy marriage any longer. What I have said is that the environment is still sound for the children.

[Circular]

Very interesting, Circular, thank you.

 

I think this is what scares my MM. He does not know if he can reintegrate his entire self into the marriage, or if this was/is only possible with me.

 

How are you going to deal with not being able to reintegrate things which are essential to your well being?

 

Well, where I can I'm making a concerted effort to expand my circle of friendships so I can counter-balance some of those things. There are a few others though that I'm going to have to just grin-n-bear it / maybe my xAP and I will be able to work out more friendish type terms in the long run. And, yes I know being friends with an xAP is a overture to other things but honestly she's the only one in 50 years of my life that just gets-it.

[silktricks]

It is five years ago since he made the remark of having a happy marriage. I don't think he believes a marriage with such a big elephant in the room as a long term extramarital relationship, no sex, no intimacy, qualifies as a happy marriage any longer. What I have said is that the environment is still sound for the children.

 

I can't remember, how old are all of you guy's kids? (If it's not TMI)

[jennie-jennie]

Well, where I can I'm making a concerted effort to expand my circle of friendships so I can counter-balance some of those things. There are a few others though that I'm going to have to just grin-n-bear it / maybe my xAP and I will be able to work out more friendish type terms in the long run. And, yes I know being friends with an xAP is a overture to other things but honestly she's the only one in 50 years of my life that just gets-it.

 

I know what you are talking about. I too am 50.

 

I hope you continue to post on LS. It seems you are really doing all you possibly can to make your marriage work. I am impressed by what you wrote here above, about having friends complement where your wife can not meet your needs. It would be very interesting to follow your story.

 

How old are your kids, and your other woman's? I think you said they were still young?

[Silly_Girl]

I don't think this is it, Owl. I think my MM genuinely does not feel like he has done all he could to save his marriage. But how to go about doing that now? That's the Catch 22.

 

He would like to apply what he has learnt through the extramarital relationship and see if he could be happy with his wife alone, no affair. But he is bonded to me, and that bond prevents him from doing all he would now be able to do to save his marriage if he was not already in an extramarital relationship.

 

Jennie, my circ's are/were very different to yours but this rings totally true to me. Totally. It's really sad....

[Silly_Girl]

Well, where I can I'm making a concerted effort to expand my circle of friendships so I can counter-balance some of those things. There are a few others though that I'm going to have to just grin-n-bear it / maybe my xAP and I will be able to work out more friendish type terms in the long run. And, yes I know being friends with an xAP is a overture to other things but honestly she's the only one in 50 years of my life that just gets-it.

 

Oh god, how poignant. I couldn't stop hearing this in my head as I read through the thread.

[Circular]

I know what you are talking about. I too am 50.

 

I hope you continue to post on LS. It seems you are really doing all you possibly can to make your marriage work. I am impressed by what you wrote here above, about having friends complement where your wife can not meet your needs. It would be very interesting to follow your story.

 

How old are your kids, and your other woman's? I think you said they were still young?

 

Thanks, yes am trying to figure it all out and make things work and find the right ways to address some of the issues. It's taking adjustment as it was like I woke up one day and realized how different my W and I are now after being married so many years. I literally thought to myself 'did I miss something here?!'.

 

Way to dredge up one of the issues We don't have any kids. I was unsure, she was sure she didn't want them. Later I started leaning more towards wanting them... messy and I acquiesced (a self issue I'm working on). The OW has two beautiful children, 4 and 6. It would break my heart if we destroyed their young lives. I keep reminding myself of that and that makes it a little easier to deal with the no contact piece.

[silverplanets]

This is usually how people are at the beginning of any relationship, though - not just an A. In the beginning there isn't anything to lose, so there is greater honesty. The key to keeping a good marriage (IMO) is being able to continue to share with that same level of honesty - even when having everything to lose.

 

 

I agree that's how most people are at the start of a relationship, but for these people to have "hidden" parts of them that their spouse doesn't know about kind of implies that they weren't like that. It gets complicated though if there was something about themselves/life that they weren't aware of when they got married .. ie that the A has opened their eyes to something they just weren't aware of ....

And, of course, the BS can also identify their needs which have not been met. If that part isn't done, then IMO the marriage will not survive long term, either. As I'll bet in most cases the BS needs which are not being met are at least as extensive as those of the WS whose are not being met.

 

Yep - 100% agree with this - and yes the gripes on each side are probably equal ... and from my experience probably pretty similar.

 

I would disagree with this, as any courtship I've experienced has been inclusive of my deep self. If they don't want the real me, then I don't want to be with them...

 

Yes this is true. Not everyone might be as self aware though, I suppose.

 

 

Maybe there are different types of epiphany that the WS gets from the A ... like ...

 

1) They share something(s) with the AP that they deliberately never shared with the spouse and therefore gain an epiphany that they can be liked even for those parts of them they have kept secret

 

2) The AP is in some ways a muse to them and allows them to access parts of themselves that they never knew existed ... in which case the epiphany is to discover something about themselves they just weren't previously aware of (and therefore although it wasn't in the marriage, it wasn't deliberately concealed)

 

I believe in my xMW's case it was a combination of 1 and 2 ... she realised with me that she didn't need to pretend to be any person or role ... I preferred for her to be just her .... and in doing that I encouraged her to explore various aspects of herself and also challenged her thought processes as to what SHE actually wanted from life, never mind her marriage ...

 

I do know that she never tried re-integrating this back into her M after the first D-day many years ago .... she refused to discuss the A with him ... and so they just let the whole thing fester .....

 

But I have seen posts on here from people who have built a stronger M post affair and the key does seem to be, amongst other things, the ability to be honest about what needs the OW/OM was fulfilling, ie what was missing from the M.

[silverplanets]

I agree with this. I don't think you can adapt your M while you have an OW as you need to be 100% emotionally available and focused on the relationship your trying to rebuild and reintegrate into.

 

I don't know if I agree with the 2nd paragraph. Being that the way things played out and I broke off my A I'm trying to reintegrate some of those things myself as I realized keeping them in a tupperware box was lethal to my well being. Some of those things I can bring in and am BUT my W isn't my OW they are different people there were things uniquely different about my OW that complimented those parts of me. I can't teach my W for example how to get a sense of humor that compliments mine, that's just a simple example.

 

I kinda get you here I think .... you can't make your W into your OW, yes? and you can't change everything about your w?

 

I guess that's where balance and compromise comes in ... I suppose you work out what you both are willing to change on , and then you see if that "works" for you as an individual.

 

Maybe having the same sense of humour isn't that important compared to many other things? (note, not saying it is or isn't, just saying one has to weigh it up) ...

 

Personally, sense of humour relates to approach to life and if that doesnt' match then its bloody difficult !

 

But then they do say one can learn to appreciate differences .. (apparently !!)

[silverplanets]

I think this is going to be a tough part for the MM. The OW is on my mind during sex as it is, if my W started doing things more like her that would just make it more difficult.

 

As a side note, I've often wondered if thinking about the AP during sex with the BS reinforces the bond with the AP when the Oxytocin is released.

 

now that's scary !!!

[silverplanets]

I don't think this is it, Owl. I think my MM genuinely does not feel like he has done all he could to save his marriage. But how to go about doing that now? That's the Catch 22.

 

He would like to apply what he has learnt through the extramarital relationship and see if he could be happy with his wife alone, no affair. But he is bonded to me, and that bond prevents him from doing all he would now be able to do to save his marriage if he was not already in an extramarital relationship.

 

Jenny, sorry slide sidetrack .... just interested ...

 

What does he feel about the fact that his wife is, to all intents and purposes, living a life that is not "real" ...

 

How does he feel knowing that he is making someone's only life on this planet a lie?

 

Not being aggresive, just wondering how he deals with that .. ?

[silktricks]

Maybe there are different types of epiphany that the WS gets from the A ... like ...

 

1) They share something(s) with the AP that they deliberately never shared with the spouse and therefore gain an epiphany that they can be liked even for those parts of them they have kept secret

 

2) The AP is in some ways a muse to them and allows them to access parts of themselves that they never knew existed ... in which case the epiphany is to discover something about themselves they just weren't previously aware of (and therefore although it wasn't in the marriage, it wasn't deliberately concealed)

Both of these are totally possible.

 

 

But I have seen posts on here from people who have built a stronger M post affair and the key does seem to be, amongst other things, the ability to be honest about what needs the OW/OM was fulfilling, ie what was missing from the M.

Sometimes, I believe it really wasn't anything missing from the marriage per se, but rather a life lesson they WS (and possibly the OW and the BS as well) need to learn - whether the affair goes on to be the primary relationship or dissolves into the past at some point. I'm a true believer that we experience things in our lives that we need to experience for some reason - even the "bad" things can often lead to something good - or lessons learned - or whatever .

[Spark1111]

Yes, I believe it is possible Jennie, but maybe not for the reasons many think.

 

My fWS thought he knew me, had me pidgeon-holed: good woman, great mother, doesn't care so much about me, needs the pay check.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

 

I was BORED with our sex life. I was Bored with our lack of communication and intimacy and his constant sadness I begged him to try to fix through counseling. I was hanging on, honoring my commitment, continuing to be the good wifey and mother, because that was the role he casted me in and dammit, those kids were not going to know differently. I was selfless and self-sacrificing.

 

He found someone who, not knowing what it was like to live with this man day in and day out, adored who he pretended to be: a strong, resourceful hero without a pathetic past, daily depression, and never spoke to me from his heart.

 

He did grow and evolve under her adoration...but not with me. With me, because he could not break out of HIS box, he was the same ole', same ole.

 

He couldn't see me, because he couldn't adjust his perception of me.

 

When he finally did....he could NOT believe the vibrant, sexual, intelligent woman who had been under his nose the entire time.

 

And my demands, once this bubble of complacency had burst on BOTH of our parts, were enormous to reconcile: Sexual experimentation and passion; intimacy and communication about everything and all day long; fun and dating and sexy testing.

 

He grew scared when I did not allow him to put me back in the mother and wifey box.

 

You have to think on this: He was so attracted to his wife he married her. (and I do not care of the excuses for marrying for the wrong reasons.)

 

He was so attracted to his OW to have an affair with her.

 

We hate to admit this, but men are very provincial whan it comes to type, sexual likes and attraction.

 

OW and BS have more in common than either camp likes to admit.

 

If he can get his needs met by one woman, and the woman can have all her needs met by one man, it is fireworks.

[NoIDidn't]

This thread has been interesting reading, but I can't help but generally feel that the things that Circ is saying about his W vs his OW are self-centered and selfish. No offense intended in so saying. It just that everything goes around what he wants and needs with no consideration that his W is getting what SHE needs from him as well.

 

Same thing with Jennie. Everything centers around him, as if she has disappeared into him.

 

To me, this is the sad thing. The MM getting to be the center of someone's world, the OW making it so. And both too absorbed in the moment to notice that everyone else has needs and expectations of them as well.

 

Just an observation of the posts as they stand right now. Its pretty hard to convince someone to meet your needs when you obviously are not making any effort to meet theirs. Maybe this is the pattern that the Ms affected by As need to get out of.

[Circular]

This thread has been interesting reading, but I can't help but generally feel that the things that Circ is saying about his W vs his OW are self-centered and selfish. No offense intended in so saying. It just that everything goes around what he wants and needs with no consideration that his W is getting what SHE needs from him as well.

 

Same thing with Jennie. Everything centers around him, as if she has disappeared into him.

 

To me, this is the sad thing. The MM getting to be the center of someone's world, the OW making it so. And both too absorbed in the moment to notice that everyone else has needs and expectations of them as well.

 

Just an observation of the posts as they stand right now. Its pretty hard to convince someone to meet your needs when you obviously are not making any effort to meet theirs. Maybe this is the pattern that the Ms affected by As need to get out of.

 

 

No offense taken at all. I suppose you'd have to be steeped into my relationship to understand the dynamics. In the way I'm talking about having my needs met I can see how you could draw that conclusion and I agree I have done some very self centered things to get my needs met somehow.

 

I'm somewhat hesitant I suppose in talking about my W and how much of my life I've actually dedicated to meeting her needs, not doing things because of her sensitivities (kids for example). I've done a lot of things to keep the waters calm and personally I think I've done a good job of meeting her needs over the M. And she seems to think so also.

 

The thing is we started out where I was meeting her needs and compromising for her comfort. Thing is after a very long time I guess I finally broke and realized I can't live my life appeasing her needs in exchange for not meeting mine. Is that selfish? So, I've worked a lot of years trying to address that and fix it and give her guidance as to what needs to change. Found various outlets, etc... And, I've worked on myself also and changed and shes still 'working on it' but not really. When I met the xOW (actually I think it's xMW? as she is married, still learning the terms) our relationship built up over a long time and when I felt we were getting into the 'danger zone' I fought it for literally years but eventually I broke down. It's a long story that is one that makes you feel like fate is alive and well and out to get you but I needed someone in my life I could just be myself around and this woman fit the bill perfectly.

[NoIDidn't]

No offense taken at all. I suppose you'd have to be steeped into my relationship to understand the dynamics. In the way I'm talking about having my needs met I can see how you could draw that conclusion and I agree I have done some very self centered things to get my needs met somehow.

 

I'm somewhat hesitant I suppose in talking about my W and how much of my life I've actually dedicated to meeting her needs, not doing things because of her sensitivities (kids for example). I've done a lot of things to keep the waters calm and personally I think I've done a good job of meeting her needs over the M. And she seems to think so also.

 

The thing is we started out where I was meeting her needs and compromising for her comfort. Thing is after a very long time I guess I finally broke and realized I can't live my life appeasing her needs in exchange for not meeting mine. Is that selfish? So, I've worked a lot of years trying to address that and fix it and give her guidance as to what needs to change. Found various outlets, etc... And, I've worked on myself also and changed and shes still 'working on it' but not really. When I met the xOW (actually I think it's xMW? as she is married, still learning the terms) our relationship built up over a long time and when I felt we were getting into the 'danger zone' I fought it for literally years but eventually I broke down. It's a long story that is one that makes you feel like fate is alive and well and out to get you but I needed someone in my life I could just be myself around and this woman fit the bill perfectly.

 

Thanks for not taking offense. My H and I could have written some of the above. I kept so much of myself pent-up because of his sensitivities or limitations (some parts I still do because they aren't particularly good for a M anyway).

 

When my H had his EA, I was almost embarking on one myself but stopped because I decided I didn't want to with the person that was available (an ex that he kinda expected me to cheat with one day). I get what you are saying. And its still sad because I can tell there is love there, but the "roles" we cast ourselves into become prisons we want to break out of.

 

I guess it really IS a Catch 22.

[Fieldsofgold]

Yes, I believe it is possible Jennie, but maybe not for the reasons many think.

 

My fWS thought he knew me, had me pidgeon-holed: good woman, great mother, doesn't care so much about me, needs the pay check.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

 

I was BORED with our sex life. I was Bored with our lack of communication and intimacy and his constant sadness I begged him to try to fix through counseling. I was hanging on, honoring my commitment, continuing to be the good wifey and mother, because that was the role he casted me in and dammit, those kids were not going to know differently. I was selfless and self-sacrificing.

 

He found someone who, not knowing what it was like to live with this man day in and day out, adored who he pretended to be: a strong, resourceful hero without a pathetic past, daily depression, and never spoke to me from his heart.

 

He did grow and evolve under her adoration...but not with me. With me, because he could not break out of HIS box, he was the same ole', same ole.

 

He couldn't see me, because he couldn't adjust his perception of me.

 

When he finally did....he could NOT believe the vibrant, sexual, intelligent woman who had been under his nose the entire time.

 

And my demands, once this bubble of complacency had burst on BOTH of our parts, were enormous to reconcile: Sexual experimentation and passion; intimacy and communication about everything and all day long; fun and dating and sexy testing.

 

He grew scared when I did not allow him to put me back in the mother and wifey box.

 

You have to think on this: He was so attracted to his wife he married her. (and I do not care of the excuses for marrying for the wrong reasons.)

 

He was so attracted to his OW to have an affair with her.

 

We hate to admit this, but men are very provincial whan it comes to type, sexual likes and attraction.

 

OW and BS have more in common than either camp likes to admit.

 

If he can get his needs met by one woman, and the woman can have all her needs met by one man, it is fireworks.

 

I really like this post. There is LOT of good insight in this. A lot to think about.

[SavannahSmiles]

If you think about it, we could all probably meet someone that has something our H or W doesn't have. Just like your H or W has something no one else has. That doesn't give us the right to go outside the marriage to get what our spouse doesn't have or provide.

[Fieldsofgold]

If you think about it, we could all probably meet someone that has something our H or W doesn't have. Just like your H or W has something no one else has. That doesn't give us the right to go outside the marriage to get what our spouse doesn't have or provide.

 

Good point!

[Fieldsofgold]

now that's scary !!!

 

I think this is going to be a tough part for the MM. The OW is on my mind during sex as it is, if my W started doing things more like her that would just make it more difficult.

 

As a side note, I've often wondered if thinking about the AP during sex with the BS reinforces the bond with the AP when the Oxytocin is released.

 

Re the oxytocin: Actually, I've read studies that indicate just the opposite is true.

 

I hope you're actively dealing with the thoughts you mentioned here, because it sounds like you are still very much engaged in an EA, at least in your head.

 

After reading some of your other posts, I'm wondering why you even bother trying to stay in your marriage? (I don't mean to be rude, and not asking for an answer; just wondering.)