Chronological Catch 22

[Fieldsofgold]

Jenny, sorry slide sidetrack .... just interested ...

 

What does he feel about the fact that his wife is, to all intents and purposes, living a life that is not "real" ...

 

How does he feel knowing that he is making someone's only life on this planet a lie?

 

Not being aggresive, just wondering how he deals with that .. ?

 

This takes it right down to the bottom line. So very true. I desperately want to say a lot more about this; about making her whole existence for the past 5 years a lie, how everything she believes in, everything she "knows" to be true has been nothing but smoke and mirrors. Her life, her options, are being stolen. But I won't say what I'd like, because I don't want to be rude. And mostly, because it won't make any difference anyway.

 

But still, what an unfair thing to do to another person.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[Fieldsofgold]

What does he feel about the fact that his wife is, to all intents and purposes, living a life that is not "real" ...

 

How does he feel knowing that he is making someone's only life on this planet a lie?

 

The validity of an affair, regardless of other arguments, is not about the love, or the sex, or the emotional intimacy. This, right here, making some unsuspecting person's life into a lie - - - this is what it's all about.

 

That two people would make an unsuspecting person's life a friggin' lie, so that *they* can experience all sorts of good feelings and get their needs met; but at what a cost to their victim/s . . .

Edited June 11, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[jennie-jennie]

I can't remember, how old are all of you guy's kids? (If it's not TMI)

 

I have two teenage children living still at home, 14 and 17 years old.

 

My MM has six children all in all. This fall there will be four still living at home, the youngest is 8 years old. (This might explain to some why he is reluctant to break up the family?)

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks, yes am trying to figure it all out and make things work and find the right ways to address some of the issues. It's taking adjustment as it was like I woke up one day and realized how different my W and I are now after being married so many years. I literally thought to myself 'did I miss something here?!'.

 

Way to dredge up one of the issues We don't have any kids. I was unsure, she was sure she didn't want them. Later I started leaning more towards wanting them... messy and I acquiesced (a self issue I'm working on). The OW has two beautiful children, 4 and 6. It would break my heart if we destroyed their young lives. I keep reminding myself of that and that makes it a little easier to deal with the no contact piece.

 

Now I am confused. I thought you were the one who initiated the breakup, and that it was done for the young kids' sake. So did you go NC for your MOW' childrens' sake? If she had had no children, would you have stayed in your marriages then? I hope it is okay that I am asking.

[jennie-jennie]

Jenny, sorry slide sidetrack .... just interested ...

 

What does he feel about the fact that his wife is, to all intents and purposes, living a life that is not "real" ...

 

How does he feel knowing that he is making someone's only life on this planet a lie?

 

Not being aggresive, just wondering how he deals with that .. ?

 

We talked about that, but not in those words.

 

We compared it to when my exSO comes down here to celebrate Christmas with me and our children. My ex and I enjoy the company of each other. We are like a family again, spending time together, with each other and with the children.

 

This is what it is like to my MM. In this sense he is not dishonest when he is at home. He does like spending time with his wife and family. He does love her, just like I still love my exSO. So their home life is not a lie.

 

What is a lie is that he is not exclusive with her. She knows that they do not have sex, that they do not have intimacy. Yet she is not questioning this lack of sex and intimacy. What she does not know of course is that he has it with someone else.

 

Do you understand what I am trying to say? He is not dishonest in his actions and emotions towards his wife. What is dishonest is the lie by omission, that there is more to his life than she knows about.

[jennie-jennie]

This thread has been interesting reading, but I can't help but generally feel that the things that Circ is saying about his W vs his OW are self-centered and selfish. No offense intended in so saying. It just that everything goes around what he wants and needs with no consideration that his W is getting what SHE needs from him as well.

Same thing with Jennie. Everything centers around him, as if she has disappeared into him.

 

To me, this is the sad thing. The MM getting to be the center of someone's world, the OW making it so. And both too absorbed in the moment to notice that everyone else has needs and expectations of them as well.

 

Just an observation of the posts as they stand right now. Its pretty hard to convince someone to meet your needs when you obviously are not making any effort to meet theirs. Maybe this is the pattern that the Ms affected by As need to get out of.

 

Wow, that was one big misperception of my life. I am a very strong and independent woman, used to dealing with the issues of life on my own. I am now lucky enough to have a very supportive man by my side.

 

My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that.

 

Generally, I don't have a need to talk on an internet forum about what is good, ie my needs being met, but about what is a problem, ie the struggle with the love triangle. My MM is not done with his marriage, that is our major issue, which is why I am bringing this up.

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me! :love:

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

Yes, I believe it is possible Jennie, but maybe not for the reasons many think.

 

My fWS thought he knew me, had me pidgeon-holed: good woman, great mother, doesn't care so much about me, needs the pay check.

 

HAHAHAHAHA!

 

I was BORED with our sex life. I was Bored with our lack of communication and intimacy and his constant sadness I begged him to try to fix through counseling. I was hanging on, honoring my commitment, continuing to be the good wifey and mother, because that was the role he casted me in and dammit, those kids were not going to know differently. I was selfless and self-sacrificing.

 

He found someone who, not knowing what it was like to live with this man day in and day out, adored who he pretended to be: a strong, resourceful hero without a pathetic past, daily depression, and never spoke to me from his heart.

 

He did grow and evolve under her adoration...but not with me. With me, because he could not break out of HIS box, he was the same ole', same ole.

 

He couldn't see me, because he couldn't adjust his perception of me.

 

When he finally did....he could NOT believe the vibrant, sexual, intelligent woman who had been under his nose the entire time.

 

And my demands, once this bubble of complacency had burst on BOTH of our parts, were enormous to reconcile: Sexual experimentation and passion; intimacy and communication about everything and all day long; fun and dating and sexy testing.

 

He grew scared when I did not allow him to put me back in the mother and wifey box.

 

You have to think on this: He was so attracted to his wife he married her. (and I do not care of the excuses for marrying for the wrong reasons.)

 

He was so attracted to his OW to have an affair with her.

We hate to admit this, but men are very provincial whan it comes to type, sexual likes and attraction.

OW and BS have more in common than either camp likes to admit.

 

If he can get his needs met by one woman, and the woman can have all her needs met by one man, it is fireworks.

 

Could be so, but when it comes to intimacy and sex the BS and I seem to be the opposite of each other. Her disinterest in this has been an issue all throughout their marriage, whereas I am very much into this kind of things. I think this is why she does not question the lack of it. She just has never been into sex and intimacy.

[silverplanets]

We talked about that, but not in those words.

 

We compared it to when my exSO comes down here to celebrate Christmas with me and our children. My ex and I enjoy the company of each other. We are like a family again, spending time together, with each other and with the children.

 

This is what it is like to my MM. In this sense he is not dishonest when he is at home. He does like spending time with his wife and family. He does love her, just like I still love my exSO. So their home life is not a lie.

 

What is a lie is that he is not exclusive with her. She knows that they do not have sex, that they do not have intimacy. Yet she is not questioning this lack of sex and intimacy. What she does not know of course is that he has it with someone else.

 

Do you understand what I am trying to say? He is not dishonest in his actions and emotions towards his wife. What is dishonest is the lie by omission, that there is more to his life than she knows about.

 

Yes, I think I understand - this is talking about the reality of what it's like on a day to day basis ... in a way he isn't lieing every day it's just that there's something in his life he's not sharing with her. So not a lie, just omitting things about himself.

 

I was thinking more though, about how he feels about the fact that the life she thinks is "real" isn't real at all ...

 

Our main relationship is a large part of our life, and yet what his wife is "shown" of that relationship is not the whole picture ... so her "big" relationship is false ...

 

One might almost say her life was a lie, but she does not know it, maybe?

 

How does he feel about this ... knowing that she doesn't have access to the information which would allow her to have an honest/genuine life ...

 

RIght now it looks like, unless somethign happens, she could go to her grave unaware that a large part of her one time on this earth was a deception ...

 

So in a way, how can he justify making someone else's life a lie ?

 

I'd be mortified to get to the end of my life and realise that a large part of it was a false ....

 

Again, not arguing or accusing, just genuninly interested in how he squares that away?

[Silly_Girl]

Could be so, but when it comes to intimacy and sex the BS and I seem to be the opposite of each other. Her disinterest in this has been an issue all throughout their marriage, whereas I am very much into this kind of things. I think this is why she does not question the lack of it. She just has never been into sex and intimacy.

 

I had same. She asked MM to wait until after marriage for sex and he did, he convinced himself, with her help, he was 'abnormal' in his interest in sex and managed without. Then after marriage they never had a sex life, she went to one therapy session and refused to talk to him about it except to say she would not be returning. This means she never had any suspicion in terms of intimacy/sex, because there was none.

[jennie-jennie]

Yes, I think I understand - this is talking about the reality of what it's like on a day to day basis ... in a way he isn't lieing every day it's just that there's something in his life he's not sharing with her. So not a lie, just omitting things about himself.

 

I was thinking more though, about how he feels about the fact that the life she thinks is "real" isn't real at all ...

 

Our main relationship is a large part of our life, and yet what his wife is "shown" of that relationship is not the whole picture ... so her "big" relationship is false ...

 

One might almost say her life was a lie, but she does not know it, maybe?

 

How does he feel about this ... knowing that she doesn't have access to the information which would allow her to have an honest/genuine life ...

 

RIght now it looks like, unless somethign happens, she could go to her grave unaware that a large part of her one time on this earth was a deception ...

 

So in a way, how can he justify making someone else's life a lie ?

 

I'd be mortified to get to the end of my life and realise that a large part of it was a false ....

 

Again, not arguing or accusing, just genuninly interested in how he squares that away?

 

I know that the first years of our relationship he was comfortable in never telling her about our affair. He felt, I guess, that what she does not know does not hurt her.

 

The last year he has changed his mind, and is contemplating at one point telling her.

 

I do not really have the answer to your question. I think he feels like he is doing the best he can in a bad situation. Like there are no good choices.

 

I have pointed out that if he let her free she too could find love like ours. It doesn't seem to be a valid argument to him. He did not respond as I remember.

 

I guess he feels like he does love her, and does want to provide and care for her and the family, and that he is doing that as best as he is able to.

 

Very much I believe it is two worlds. He said something interesting the other day. That he had always had these two worlds, one shared and one private. The only difference now is that he is sharing his private world with me. Explains compartmentalisation perhaps?

[silverplanets]

I know that the first years of our relationship he was comfortable in never telling her about our affair. He felt, I guess, that what she does not know does not hurt her.

 

Yes, I think there's that first part where it doesn't seem to be a problem and then the magnitude of where one has got oneself sinks in ...

 

The last year he has changed his mind, and is contemplating at one point telling her.

 

I do not really have the answer to your question. I think he feels like he is doing the best he can in a bad situation. Like there are no good choices.

 

Again agree - there are no good choices. The choice, though, to make someone else's one life on this planet a lie without them even knowing it ... isn't that the worst choice of any that he has? Who or what has given him the "right" to make that descision for another human soul?

 

I have pointed out that if he let her free she too could find love like ours. It doesn't seem to be a valid argument to him. He did not respond as I remember.

 

She probably would (find that love) .. but even if she didn't she would learn to be stunningly happy and at least experience a real life ..

 

I guess he feels like he does love her, and does want to provide and care for her and the family, and that he is doing that as best as he is able to.

 

A similar scenario I suppose might be knowing someone you love is terminally ill and deciding not to tell them. So yes, I can understand how love leads us to keep things from people. This isn't that though, this is him by his daily omissions making her life a falsehood .... does it really work to think " I love x so much that I am going to make the rest of their time on this planet a lie, without telling them" ...

 

Very much I believe it is two worlds. He said something interesting the other day. That he had always had these two worlds, one shared and one private. The only difference now is that he is sharing his private world with me. Explains compartmentalisation perhaps?

 

Yep, I can understand this, and this might well be what it is inside his head. But there is a real world out there and it is his wife's real life that he is making into a work of fiction ...

 

 

Thanks Jennie, I've put some comments above and I hope it doesn't look like badgering .. cause it's not meant to . It's just trying me trying to work out this part of their thinking as I never could get it out of my xMW.

 

In the end it was me who decided that I couldn't be responsible for aiding making someone other human beings life a work of fiction without telling them.

 

If it was me I would have wanted to be told ... I only have one life and would hate for it to not be what I thought it was.

 

She constantly maintained that she was being kind to him though ... and i n ever got it ... how can it be kind to someone to turn their only time on this planet into a mockery/lie .. it seemed like the worst act of cruelty to me.

 

Imagine dieing and then finding out your life had been a sham ... and you weren't even aware of it ... how soul destroying.

 

Appreciate the honesty and, like I said, none of this is badgering .. if anything just reflecting and seeing how another person from my xMW squared it away.

 

Thanks Jennie

Chris

[jennie-jennie]

Thanks Jennie, I've put some comments above and I hope it doesn't look like badgering .. cause it's not meant to . It's just trying me trying to work out this part of their thinking as I never could get it out of my xMW.

 

In the end it was me who decided that I couldn't be responsible for aiding making someone other human beings life a work of fiction without telling them.

 

If it was me I would have wanted to be told ... I only have one life and would hate for it to not be what I thought it was.

 

She constantly maintained that she was being kind to him though ... and i n ever got it ... how can it be kind to someone to turn their only time on this planet into a mockery/lie .. it seemed like the worst act of cruelty to me.

 

Imagine dieing and then finding out your life had been a sham ... and you weren't even aware of it ... how soul destroying.

 

Appreciate the honesty and, like I said, none of this is badgering .. if anything just reflecting and seeing how another person from my xMW squared it away.

 

Thanks Jennie

Chris

 

My MM has told me that his wife generally has the attitude of looking away from problems. You know like she has blinders on, does not want to see the problems as long as she can stay happy anyway. His knowledge of this might also be in play here.

 

Just like you, I would never do this to my partner. I am however not prepared to give up my primary love relationship because of how he chooses to treat his former primary love relationship. I am just not that altruistic.

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[Fieldsofgold]

I have two teenage children living still at home, 14 and 17 years old.

 

My MM has six children all in all. This fall there will be four still living at home, the youngest is 8 years old. (This might explain to some why he is reluctant to break up the family?)

 

Six children, no sex. Hmmm . . .

 

(I certainly hope she has a full-time staff, nanny, cook, housekeeper and chauffeur.)

 

. . . and he's been having an affair for five years, so that would be since the youngest was two or three.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[jennie-jennie]

My MM has told me that his wife generally has the attitude of looking away from problems. You know like she has blinders on, does not want to see the problems as long as she can stay happy anyway. His knowledge of this might also be in play here.

 

Just like you, I would never do this to my partner. I am however not prepared to give up my primary love relationship because of how he chooses to treat his former primary love relationship. I am just not that altruistic.

 

I want to add to this, how much less of a lie is the WS and the BS actually living, when the WS has either given up the affair for altruistic reasons or been forced to give it up because the OP would not participate any longer?

 

His/her emotions for the OP might very well still be lingering. The marital intimacy and the sex life may very well not have been reassumed. He/she might just be there out of duty.

 

Perhaps an affair leading to a Dday is better then, so it all comes out into the open, and the BS truly gets a choice on how to live her/his life.

[jennie-jennie]

Six children, no sex. Hmmm . . .

 

(I certainly hope she has a full-time staff, nanny, cook, housekeeper and chauffeur.)

 

. . . and he's been having an affair for five years, so that would be since the youngest was two or three.

 

The youngest turns nine this year, so nine minus five is four years old.

 

When I first heard my MM had this many kids, I was certain he had a very frequent sex life. I was very surprised when I understood this not to be the case. Twice a week would be great, he said, and I: WTF?

 

My MM does have a high libido, and his wife has agreed to sex most of the times he has asked for it. It is not all that fun though to always be the one asking. Kind of like getting a handout.

 

Fields, it has only been the last year that my MM has been exclusive with me. Before that he had sex, though infrequent, with his wife.

[silverplanets]

My MM has told me that his wife generally has the attitude of looking away from problems. You know like she has blinders on, does not want to see the problems as long as she can stay happy anyway. His knowledge of this might also be in play here.

 

Just like you, I would never do this to my partner. I am however not prepared to give up my primary love relationship because of how he chooses to treat his former primary love relationship. I am just not that altruistic.

 

Understand this bit entirely. It's a difficult one, in the end I couldn't reconcile her treating another human being in a way that I wouldn't ... so I had to conclude that somewhere inside we were different.

 

There were lots of other reasons though .. and so I know these things are never clear cut.

 

From the left field ..... just occured to me .. I wonder how would your MM feel if at the end of his life he was told one of his kids wasn't actually his .. ? Might be an analogy as to how it feels to be deceived "for love" that he could relate to ????? Would he, perhaps, feel had a right to know sooner???

 

be safe

 

Chris

[Silly_Girl]

I want to add to this, how much less of a lie is the WS and the BS actually living, when the WS has either given up the affair for altruistic reasons or been forced to give it up because the OP would not participate any longer?

 

His/her emotions for the OP might very well still be lingering. The marital intimacy and the sex life may very well not have been reassumed. He/she might just be there out of duty.

 

Perhaps an affair leading to a Dday is better then, so it all comes out into the open, and the BS truly gets a choice on how to live her/his life.

 

 

We can feel we're in a marriage out of duty without an AP/xAP on the sidelines.

 

Surely, as grown-ups, the unhappy spouse can broach this before they are intimate with someone outside of the marriage, get IC/MC, allow their husband/wife to know how they feel and that something's gotta give? The BS then has a choice. There doesn't need to be an affair for that to happen, does there?

[Fieldsofgold]

Wow, that was one big misperception of my life. I am a very strong and independent woman, used to dealing with the issues of life on my own. I am now lucky enough to have a very supportive man by my side.

 

My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that.

 

Generally, I don't have a need to talk on an internet forum about what is good, ie my needs being met, but about what is a problem, ie the struggle with the love triangle. My MM is not done with his marriage, that is our major issue, which is why I am bringing this up.

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me! :love:

 

so your affair with this guy started when he and his wife had six young children at home, the youngest being 2 years old (or 3), when the affair began. Six young children, ages 2 and up. Cooking, cleaning, chauffering, nurturing and training six young lives, his wife was (please, please tell

me she didn't work outside the home, as well) - and he complained that she's not a red-hot sex kitten??? He complained that she didn't meet his needs??? Six young children and a home to take care of, and he's doing all the above, for you? Uh, HE DID make those babies. They are his responsibility just as much as they are hers. If he's doing all that for you, and spending money on you, and travels some with his job (I think you mentioned you join him for week-long trips sometimes) there is no way this man can even be providing his basic responsibilities to his kids, much less his wife. She is working herself to a frazzle to take care of HIS and her responsibilies to the home/kids, and he's off doing all the above - not for his wife, but for you. And he has the audacity to complain that she doesn't have time for him, doesn't meet his needs???!!!

 

I think it would be wonderful for him to be a Mr. Mom for a few years, while his wife worked and traveled. I wonder how stimulating and interesting HE would be, what a hot lover HE would be, if the roles were reversed.

 

And as if she doesn't have enough on her, now she has to wonder if he's having an affair! And if she does find out, and doesn't kick him out - she will be bashed for not doing so.

 

What a man he is! What a guy!

[jennie-jennie]

Six children, no sex. Hmmm . . .

 

(I certainly hope she has a full-time staff, nanny, cook, housekeeper and chauffeur.)

 

. . . and he's been having an affair for five years, so that would be since the youngest was two or three.

 

You know, when a man goes over the top just because you have the light on or because you have a piece of lingerie on, that does tell you something about his marital sex life. There are clues for the OW of how experienced/inexperienced their MM are when it comes to sex.

[Fieldsofgold]

We can feel we're in a marriage out of duty without an AP/xAP on the sidelines.

 

Surely, as grown-ups, the unhappy spouse can broach this before they are intimate with someone outside of the marriage, get IC/MC, allow their husband/wife to know how they feel and that something's gotta give? The BS then has a choice. There doesn't need to be an affair for that to happen, does there?

 

No, and this is very well said, SG. This would be the right thing to do, the ethical thing to do, the fair thing to do. Own up to the problems like an adult and try to deal with them. But that takes character and maturity.

 

It's much easier to just escape the wife and kids, and all the responsibilities that go along with that, and escape into a fantasy world where everything is wonderful, and none of the realities of day-to-day living, or the choices tht the person made, have to be dealt with.

[Fieldsofgold]

The youngest turns nine this year, so nine minus five is four years old.

 

My bad! So when he started the affair with you, he and his wife had six young children, age 3 to 4 years old and up.

[silktricks]

 

I have pointed out that if he let her free she too could find love like ours. It doesn't seem to be a valid argument to him. He did not respond as I remember.

maybe he doesn't like the idea that his wife "could" experience the same level of sex and intimacy with someone else. If she could, that would kinda mean that he wasn't really all "that" for her either - and maybe she did have those same depths of emotions - just not for him. Maybe that's a problem for him.....

 

{snip}

 

Very much I believe it is two worlds. He said something interesting the other day. That he had always had these two worlds, one shared and one private. The only difference now is that he is sharing his private world with me. Explains compartmentalisation perhaps?

He sounds like someone who has been afraid to attempt to share his private life/thoughts with his wife - probably in fear he would lose her. And now has found this life to be more important than he ever gave credence. I wonder what would happen if he did attempt to share it with her. I wonder if she has the same kind of "private" life that she's been afraid to share with him.....

[jennie-jennie]

My bad! So when he started the affair with you, he and his wife had six young children, age 3 to 4 years old and up.

 

Ages 4 and up, yes.

[jennie-jennie]

Understand this bit entirely. It's a difficult one, in the end I couldn't reconcile her treating another human being in a way that I wouldn't ... so I had to conclude that somewhere inside we were different.

 

There were lots of other reasons though .. and so I know these things are never clear cut.

 

From the left field ..... just occured to me .. I wonder how would your MM feel if at the end of his life he was told one of his kids wasn't actually his .. ? Might be an analogy as to how it feels to be deceived "for love" that he could relate to ????? Would he, perhaps, feel had a right to know sooner???

 

be safe

 

Chris

 

You know, I think he might feel relieved that he hadn't been the only one cheating.

[jennie-jennie]

We can feel we're in a marriage out of duty without an AP/xAP on the sidelines.

 

Surely, as grown-ups, the unhappy spouse can broach this before they are intimate with someone outside of the marriage, get IC/MC, allow their husband/wife to know how they feel and that something's gotta give? The BS then has a choice. There doesn't need to be an affair for that to happen, does there?

 

This was not possible in the case of my MM, since he had not understood anything was missing. He was confident he was having a happy marriage, when he reconnected with me to give me a letter he had unsuccessfully tried to send to me 25 years earlier. I believe he is not the only MM who through the affair has discovered that a relationship can be so much more than they prior to this had understood.