Chronological Catch 22

[jennie-jennie]

Could we please get back on topic? If someone feels the need to discuss the right or wrong of having an affair, I suggest they do that in their own thread!

[jennie-jennie]

He sounds like someone who has been afraid to attempt to share his private life/thoughts with his wife - probably in fear he would lose her. And now has found this life to be more important than he ever gave credence. I wonder what would happen if he did attempt to share it with her. I wonder if she has the same kind of "private" life that she's been afraid to share with him.....

 

This is what I believe too. I even suggested to him that he start sharing things with her, but he pointed out the obvious: He can't start sharing only parts of this private world, while pretending that that big elephant under the curtain, ie the affair, is not there.

 

And there is one more reason, he is afraid of what letting her in would do to his relationship with me.

[Silly_Girl]

Could we please get back on topic? If someone feels the need to discuss the right or wrong of having an affair, I suggest they do that in their own thread!

 

Apologies Jennie, I am interested in the crux of the thread, but also how much affairs count in the maturity cycles we go through, and whether some of the changes in a person are assumed to be related to the affair(s) but perhaps aren't, maybe sometimes the affair is a timely explanation and is 'easier' than dealing with these changes in the context of the existing relationship.

[jennie-jennie]

Apologies Jennie, I am interested in the crux of the thread, but also how much affairs count in the maturity cycles we go through, and whether some of the changes in a person are assumed to be related to the affair(s) but perhaps aren't, maybe sometimes the affair is a timely explanation and is 'easier' than dealing with these changes in the context of the existing relationship.

 

Falling in love is a revolution. There are times in our life when a revolution is needed. There are times in our life when we are open for a change. The new partner and the new relationship become the tools with which we change.

 

I know when my MM contacted me, he was in a turbulent period of time where he was questioning the very basis of his perception of the world. He was doubting whether there was a god, whether there was an afterlife. We had unfinished business and he reached out to me.

 

I know I have had a great and permanent effect on his personality and his inner life. It is very obvious. I have seen him change before my eyes.

[Silly_Girl]

Falling in love is a revolution. There are times in our life when a revolution is needed. There are times in our life when we are open for a change. The new partner and the new relationship become the tools with which we change.

 

I know when my MM contacted me, he was in a turbulent period of time where he was questioning the very basis of his perception of the world. He was doubting whether there was a god, whether there was an afterlife. We had unfinished business and he reached out to me.

 

I know I have had a great and permanent effect on his personality and his inner life. It is very obvious. I have seen him change before my eyes.

 

I do understand, there is a LOT you say that resonates with me, although my relationship was much, much shorter and quite early on I decided I couldn't remain in that set-up, but I recognise a lot of what you say about your MM and your relationship with him.

 

I wonder whether my relationship with xMM will be the final nail in the coffin for his marriage now he has tasted a genuine connection with another... or perhaps it will be a catalyst for him to seek that which he needs with his wife, maybe now he will have greater understanding about his own behaviour towards her as a result of time we've spent talking together.

[silktricks]

This was not possible in the case of my MM, since he had not understood anything was missing.

Sorry, but this I don't buy. He did know something was missing. He knew he had a "private life" that he was not sharing with her. Maybe he thought it was impossible to share this with anyone - and that's probably the case - but nonetheless, he knew something was not in true alignment.

 

He was confident he was having a happy marriage, when he reconnected with me to give me a letter he had unsuccessfully tried to send to me 25 years earlier. I believe he is not the only MM who through the affair has discovered that a relationship can be so much more than they prior to this had understood.

So then the question begs - how did he discover that? Was it because with you he found a way to share a part of himself he wasn't willing to attempt to share with his wife? My bet would be yes. Therefore, (IMO) if he had been willing to attempt to share all of himself with his wife, he very probably would have had this type of relationship all of his life.

 

IMO (and again only MO), HE is the root cause of his own problems . The fact that he's too - for want of a better word - chicken to take the chance of having a little tilt in his home life and actually sharing with his wife ALL of himself, he's now spent 5 years lying to his wife, cheating his family of time, energy and money he spends on you and your kids, and keeping you from finding someone who is available with whom you could connect in a meaningful way. I understand that you love him, but I'm not liking him very well, at all... .

[jennie-jennie]

Sorry, but this I don't buy. He did know something was missing. He knew he had a "private life" that he was not sharing with her. Maybe he thought it was impossible to share this with anyone - and that's probably the case - but nonetheless, he knew something was not in true alignment.

 

So then the question begs - how did he discover that? Was it because with you he found a way to share a part of himself he wasn't willing to attempt to share with his wife? My bet would be yes. Therefore, (IMO) if he had been willing to attempt to share all of himself with his wife, he very probably would have had this type of relationship all of his life.

 

IMO (and again only MO), HE is the root cause of his own problems . The fact that he's too - for want of a better word - chicken to take the chance of having a little tilt in his home life and actually sharing with his wife ALL of himself, he's now spent 5 years lying to his wife, cheating his family of time, energy and money he spends on you and your kids, and keeping you from finding someone who is available with whom you could connect in a meaningful way. I understand that you love him, but I'm not liking him very well, at all... .

 

Survival tactics from childhood are not that easily changed. Always being the good guy, taking care of others.

 

I can't answer for him, but I am definitely glad he entered my life. It is interesting, some things do not show until you are in a new relationship. I did not know I was that hurt from my prior relationship until I saw the wounded animal I became in relation to my MM. He stood by me, he never left my side until I trusted him, until I was healing again.

 

I believe in serial monogamy. What my MM is doing wrong in my opinion is not being with me but the fact that he is not getting a divorce from his wife. He is still there, whipping that dead horse of a marriage.

[Spark1111]

Oh, Jennie.....I was just stopped dead in my tracks.

 

Six baby children and a husband traveling a good deal of the time.

 

Oh my....And she doesn't want to make love with the light on or wear new lingerie.

 

She probably is vying to use the bathroom alone and trying to shower in the chaos as often as humanly possible.

 

You have two teenagers.

 

There is no comparison to the amount of time and attention and privacy and sexuality and conversation you can provide him as compared to his wife and what her life looks like now with it's noise and chaos and constant interruptions and cooking, and cleaning, and blah, blah, blah.

 

Truly, truly an unfair situation for her to even try to compete with. She can't, on any level, and he should at least admit that to himself, especially if he is NOT taking active steps to HELP HER with her own needs, those of their six small children, and his needs.

[silktricks]

Survival tactics from childhood are not that easily changed. Always being the good guy, taking care of others.

No, they are not. But they aren't impossible to change, he has been changing them with you. He wasn't willing to even attempt to do so with his wife. As I said - that screams "chicken" to me. He wasn't willing to take a chance with her - in case he would lose her. He's been willing to take a chance with you - and look what that's led to - the probability of losing at least one of you, if not both.

 

I can't answer for him, but I am definitely glad he entered my life. It is interesting, some things do not show until you are in a new relationship. I did not know I was that hurt from my prior relationship until I saw the wounded animal I became in relation to my MM. He stood by me, he never left my side until I trusted him, until I was healing again.

 

I believe in serial monogamy. What my MM is doing wrong in my opinion is not being with me but the fact that he is not getting a divorce from his wife. He is still there, whipping that dead horse of a marriage.

I believe in serial monogamy, but with an added adjunct. If you are in a relationship, you terminate it before beginning another. To hedge your bet by using another person is IMO pretty low.

[jennie-jennie]

Oh, Jennie.....I was just stopped dead in my tracks.

 

Six baby children and a husband traveling a good deal of the time.

 

Oh my....And she doesn't want to make love with the light on or wear new lingerie.

 

She probably is vying to use the bathroom alone and trying to shower in the chaos as often as humanly possible.

 

You have two teenagers.

 

There is no comparison to the amount of time and attention and privacy and sexuality and conversation you can provide him as compared to his wife and what her life looks like now with it's noise and chaos and constant interruptions and cooking, and cleaning, and blah, blah, blah.

 

Truly, truly an unfair situation for her to even try to compete with. She can't, on any level, and he should at least admit that to himself, especially if he is NOT taking active steps to HELP HER with her own needs, those of their six small children, and his needs.

 

Fine. He did not travel for work until he needed that as an excuse to meet me. My kids were not teenagers when we first got back in contact.

 

OK, he is evil, I am evil, what more do you guys want?

 

So he hesitated to marry her because she was not into sex and intimacy and that was because she was going to become a mother of six?

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[silktricks]

OK, he is evil, I am evil, what more do you guys want?

I don't think either you or he are evil, and if I've come across that way, I'm really really sorry. I actually like you quite a bit, Jennie . And I don't think your guy is evil either, I just think he could've put more thought and consideration into the situation he's got both of you in. That doesn't equate even closely to evil - not to me.

 

So he hesitated to marry her because she was not into sex and that was because she was going to become a mother of six?

Huh? I never heard that part before... please enlarge. Also, if it's not TMI, why 6 kids??? In today's world, most people I know wouldn't want anywhere NEAR that many... Was that his wife's choice? Edited June 11, 2010 by silktricks

[jennie-jennie]

I don't think either you or he are evil, and if I've come across that way, I'm really really sorry. I actually like you quite a bit, Jennie . And I don't think your guy is evil either, I just think he could've put more thought and consideration into the situation he's got both of you in. That doesn't equate even closely to evil - not to me.

We are good, silk.

Huh? I never heard that part before... please enlarge. Also, if it's not TMI, why 6 kids??? In today's world, most people I know wouldn't want anywhere NEAR that many... Was that his wife's choice?

That was his wife's choice, he only wanted two.

 

I think what people fail to realize is that even a MM can be a good father and husband. He truly loves and cares for his family. His children always turn to him for help with their problems. He has such a calm personality.

[Silly_Girl]

We are good, silk.

That was his wife's choice, he only wanted two.

 

I think what people fail to realize is that even a MM can be a good father and husband. He truly loves and cares for his family. His children always turn to him for help with their problems. He has such a calm personality.

 

What makes me sad (not a dig at you, Jennie, just an observation...) is that these little people may look back on that precious part of their lives and feel they never knew him, never had him, were never part of a 'proper' family, if the affair is ever exposed. When we learn of circumstances we weren't aware of at the time it rewrites history for us, rewrites our memories. That would be awful for them.

[silktricks]

We are good, silk.

That was his wife's choice, he only wanted two.

As a complete side note and total t/j I think (personally) that it's really rotten for one party in a marriage to insist on having a whole slew of kids when the other one isn't all that enthralled with the idea.

 

Though most of my friends/acquaintances have 2 or fewer children, one couple I know have six. He didn't want 6 kids - she did. He is completely exhausted, is in his late 50's (his wife is younger) and won't be done fathering underage children until until he's 70. Like your guy, his youngest is 8 or 9. It just seems so incredibly selfish of either partner insisting on having a bunch of children with no real thought to the impact on the life of the person who's not all that crazy about it.

 

I think what people fail to realize is that even a MM can be a good father and husband. He truly loves and cares for his family. His children always turn to him for help with their problems. He has such a calm personality.

I have no doubt that an MM can be a good father. A good husband?? - I'd argue that. If your description of a good husband is primarily that he is a good provider and that he cares about his wife. then yes, with that description, I'd agree - but that isn't (for me) a real description of a good husband.

 

A good husband is also one who is willing to share himself with his wife, who communicates, who can be trusted. A good husband will be willing to put himself on the line and yes, even to let her go if that is what is necessary to have an honest relationship. A man who is not willing to have an honest relationship with his wife is IMO not a good husband. He may be a good (or at least as good as he can be) human, but he's not a good husband.

[Fieldsofgold]

We are good, silk.

That was his wife's choice, he only wanted two.

 

I feel the need to interject here that this is the OW, speaking for the Wife; perhaps repeating what was told her by the MM.

 

If the W could speak for herself, it might sound a bit different. Or not. But really, we can't take these things at face value, because the wife isn't here to speak for herself.

[silktricks]

When we learn of circumstances we weren't aware of at the time it rewrites history for us, rewrites our memories. That would be awful for them.

 

T/J coming up here...

 

I've heard other people say this. IMO, it doesn't ring true. What we don't know when we are young, we don't know. To say that finding something out later in life that would have affected us when we were young had we known about it somehow changes our life in the past is IMO a bunch of hooey (no offense SG). The fact is, we didn't know. What we don't know, we don't know.

 

OK, to use an extreme example - what if after you were grown you found out your Dad was a serial murderer. Would that change your opinion of him as a person - yeah - I'd think it would. Would it "rewrite history"? No, not really. If he was good to you, then he was good to you. When he took you to Europe as a child, and you had fun with him - well, those things still happened, and you still had fun with and loved your Dad.

 

As an adult, when you found out that he'd also been killing people for entertainment, well I'm certain that changed your opinion of what kind of person he was - and probably would pretty much rock your boat as to what kind of genetic package you have - it doesn't really change history or our memories, and to say it does is IMO a bit of sophistry that is in vogue, but isn't really honest...

 

Sorry...

[jennie-jennie]

There is no comparison to the amount of time and attention and privacy and sexuality and conversation you can provide him as compared to his wife and what her life looks like now with it's noise and chaos and constant interruptions and cooking, and cleaning, and blah, blah, blah.

 

Spark, during 1 1/2 years of our relationship I was going through chemo-like therapy. I had a hemoglobin level of between 95 and 100. I could hardly make it to the bathroom, let alone take care of my two children.

 

I think LS posters should be very careful in describing what they don't know much about.

[Silly_Girl]

No problem Silk, I can only speak from experience, how I view events in my childhood has changed now I've learnt what REALLY happened between my divorced parents. And some things in my life with my ex now look different to me looking back, eg. having learnt why he left me on my own at a family party (to meet his ex) makes me feel differently about the whole thing start to finish.

[jennie-jennie]

No, they are not. But they aren't impossible to change, he has been changing them with you. He wasn't willing to even attempt to do so with his wife. As I said - that screams "chicken" to me. He wasn't willing to take a chance with her - in case he would lose her. He's been willing to take a chance with you - and look what that's led to - the probability of losing at least one of you, if not both.

 

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps that is what this thread is about: that my MM wishes he had done exactly that so he would know whether to stay married or not.

[silktricks]

Hindsight is always 20/20. Perhaps that is what this thread is about: that my MM wishes he had done exactly that so he would know whether to stay married or not.

He really has only one way to "know". That is to leave you and devote himself fully to doing exactly that with his wife. Something tells me, though, he's not going to do that...

[jennie-jennie]

What makes me sad (not a dig at you, Jennie, just an observation...) is that these little people may look back on that precious part of their lives and feel they never knew him, never had him, were never part of a 'proper' family, if the affair is ever exposed. When we learn of circumstances we weren't aware of at the time it rewrites history for us, rewrites our memories. That would be awful for them.

 

My belief is, and I have told him as much, that he is training his children to become WSs, BSs and OPs. Instead he could have been a role model of how to deal with things as they come along in life. For instance, that sometimes you outgrow a marriage, and then you can separate and still care for each other.

[jennie-jennie]

He really has only one way to "know". That is to leave you and devote himself fully to doing exactly that with his wife. Something tells me, though, he's not going to do that...

 

He tried to. He lasted 6 days, and it only brought us closer to each other.

 

No use going NC until you are done for good, you know.

[jennie-jennie]

 

As a complete side note and total t/j I think (personally) that it's really rotten for one party in a marriage to insist on having a whole slew of kids when the other one isn't all that enthralled with the idea.

 

Though most of my friends/acquaintances have 2 or fewer children, one couple I know have six. He didn't want 6 kids - she did. He is completely exhausted, is in his late 50's (his wife is younger) and won't be done fathering underage children until until he's 70. Like your guy, his youngest is 8 or 9. It just seems so incredibly selfish of either partner insisting on having a bunch of children with no real thought to the impact on the life of the person who's not all that crazy about it.

 

I don't want to paint his wife in a bad picture. My MM obviously agreed to having that many kids, and he loves each and every one of them. Being a father is a very important part of his life.

I have no doubt that an MM can be a good father. A good husband?? - I'd argue that. If your description of a good husband is primarily that he is a good provider and that he cares about his wife. then yes, with that description, I'd agree - but that isn't (for me) a real description of a good husband.

 

A good husband is also one who is willing to share himself with his wife, who communicates, who can be trusted. A good husband will be willing to put himself on the line and yes, even to let her go if that is what is necessary to have an honest relationship. A man who is not willing to have an honest relationship with his wife is IMO not a good husband. He may be a good (or at least as good as he can be) human, but he's not a good husband.

 

I tend to agree with you here. But isn't this the reason why women initiate divorce far more often than men? Women and men put emphasis on different aspects of the marriage.

[OWoman]

This was not possible in the case of my MM, since he had not understood anything was missing. He was confident he was having a happy marriage, when he reconnected with me to give me a letter he had unsuccessfully tried to send to me 25 years earlier. I believe he is not the only MM who through the affair has discovered that a relationship can be so much more than they prior to this had understood.

 

 

My H is another. It was only through the A that his eyes were opened to the true nature of his M, by contrast. Before that, he'd imagined that all Rs were like that, sooner or later, below the surface where others couldn't see. It took an A to discover that love needn't hurt. And a good deal of hard work in IC to overcome the pathological patterns of relating he'd been taught through his M.

[silktricks]

No problem Silk, I can only speak from experience, how I view events in my childhood has changed now I've learnt what REALLY happened between my divorced parents. And some things in my life with my ex now look different to me looking back, eg. having learnt why he left me on my own at a family party (to meet his ex) makes me feel differently about the whole thing start to finish.

I understand what you are saying. The key, though (IMO) is the bolded line above. Your memories are not changed - your viewpoint is. The reality is that even had you not learned "what really happened between your divorced parents" your viewpoint would still have changed. That's because you are now grown and have the advantage of seeing your past through adult eyes and with adult experiences.

 

It's unfortunate that some people do not ever get to that point of seeing the past through adult eyes - instead they continue to view the world from the perspective of a child. If they could see that their viewpoint is stuck in childhood, it would, in my opinion, give more people the ability to forgive their parents for some past hurts, and they would be more well-rounded and forgiving adults themselves.

 

OK - T/J over...