Chronological Catch 22

[Owl]

He tried to. He lasted 6 days, and it only brought us closer to each other.

 

No use going NC until you are done for good, you know.

 

I disagree. As long as he is in contact with you, he's going to be self-sabotaging any effort he makes to improve his marriage.

 

He literally is setting this up to fail by "trying" to work on his marriage while still 'being with you".

 

It's an attempt to salve his conscience...to allow himself to say later that "I tried".

 

The only way for his effort to truly stand a chance is for him to stop "trying" and start "doing".

 

He CANNOT do that while you're still in the picture.

 

He CANNOT do that until he makes a CHOICE between you and her, and puts all of his heart and effort into his CHOICE.

 

All he's doing with his attempt right now is giving himself some padding to make himself feel better, and prolonging the status quo.

[OWoman]

As a complete side note and total t/j I think (personally) that it's really rotten for one party in a marriage to insist on having a whole slew of kids when the other one isn't all that enthralled with the idea.

 

Or any at all. My H was tricked and guilt-tripped into becoming a father, after he and his xW had agreed on not having kids. She changed her mind, and conveniently didn't let him know... and once she was pregnant, he couldn't exactly abort the foetus, could he?

 

I didn't want kids, either - yet the pressure brought to bear on me when I fell pregnant was unimaginable! Given that abortions were illegal in my country back then, I didn't have many options, and did land up going through with the pregnancy, but I really sympathise with anyone else who's become a parent - or a repeat parent - against their will.

[jennie-jennie]

I disagree. As long as he is in contact with you, he's going to be self-sabotaging any effort he makes to improve his marriage.

 

He literally is setting this up to fail by "trying" to work on his marriage while still 'being with you".

 

It's an attempt to salve his conscience...to allow himself to say later that "I tried".

 

The only way for his effort to truly stand a chance is for him to stop "trying" and start "doing".

 

He CANNOT do that while you're still in the picture.

 

He CANNOT do that until he makes a CHOICE between you and her, and puts all of his heart and effort into his CHOICE.

 

All he's doing with his attempt right now is giving himself some padding to make himself feel better, and prolonging the status quo.

 

I think we agree, Owl. My MM is not going to work on his marriage until he is done with me. He realizes it is no use. No more premature NC.

[silktricks]

So he hesitated to marry her because she was not into sex and intimacy and that was because she was going to become a mother of six?

Jennie - I'd like to go back to this. I had understood that he wasn't willing to share all of himself with his wife from the get go, because he was afraid then that she wouldn't marry him...

 

that is different from "he hesitated to marry her because she wasn't into sex and intimacy".

 

So I think I've misunderstood something, could you explain, please?

 

Also, the 25 year old letter that he wanted you to get (the reason he recontacted you in the beginning). Was that letter written before or after he married?

[Fieldsofgold]

. . .*

I think what people fail to realize is that even a MM can be a good father and husband. He truly loves and cares for his family. His children always turn to him for help with their problems. He has such a calm personality.

 

QUOTE (Jennie-Jennie): "My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that."

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me!"*

 

So this man is doing all this for you, AND took a traveling job so you could be with him, week at a time. *AND yet you say he is there meeting the needs of his wife and six young children???*

 

There is no freaking way. First if all, the very fact that he has a mistress is NOT meeting the needs of his wife and children.

 

There is no way he can invest the time and emotional energy that you say he sinks into you, and still have plenty for his wife and family. Just being a good parent to six young kids is a full-time job, if you do it right.*

 

Oh, he may be great with the kids the few hours he's home and not lost in thought about his affair/marriage partners/issues. But that's like giving a child a bite of the most delicious steak. It may be wonderful at the moment, but over the long haul it won't sustain them.*

 

There is just no way he can divide his time and emotional energy among the 10 of you, and really do his W and kids justice. **

[jennie-jennie]

Jennie - I'd like to go back to this. I had understood that he wasn't willing to share all of himself with his wife from the get go, because he was afraid then that she wouldn't marry him...

 

that is different from "he hesitated to marry her because she wasn't into sex and intimacy".

 

So I think I've misunderstood something, could you explain, please?

 

Also, the 25 year old letter that he wanted you to get (the reason he recontacted you in the beginning). Was that letter written before or after he married?

 

We were separated by circumstances beyond our control as teenagers in love. He repeatedly during the decade after tried to get in contact with me, finally even writing letters he had nowhere to send. This was way before he met his wife to be. He married at 30.

 

Using your words, he was afraid "to share all of himself with his wife from the get go" because he wanted a relationship with her, not marriage. She wanted to get married, she wanted children, she wanted a family. He accepted that that was important to her and that for her that was a natural consequence of their relationship.

 

He is a man of his words. Once married, he has tried to stand by his vows, even to the extent of staying while being in love with another.

[jennie-jennie]

QUOTE (Jennie-Jennie): "My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that."

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me!"*

 

So this man is doing all this for you, AND took a traveling job so you could be with him, week at a time. *AND yet you say he is there meeting the needs of his wife and six young children???*

 

There is no freaking way. First if all, the very fact that he has a mistress is NOT meeting the needs of his wife and children.

 

There is no way he can invest the time and emotional energy that you say he sinks into you, and still have plenty for his wife and family. Just being a good parent to six young kids is a full-time job, if you do it right.*

 

Oh, he may be great with the kids the few hours he's home and not lost in thought about his affair/marriage partners/issues. But that's like giving a child a bite of the most delicious steak. It may be wonderful at the moment, but over the long haul it won't sustain them.*

 

There is just no way he can divide his time and emotional energy among the 10 of you, and really do his W and kids justice. **

 

Fields, I have not seen you be on topic in a single post of yours on this thread. It seems you have a different agenda all together. Please keep to the topic in question.

[silktricks]

We were separated by circumstances beyond our control as teenagers in love. He repeatedly during the decade after tried to get in contact with me, finally even writing letters he had nowhere to send. This was way before he met his wife to be. He married at 30.

This is sad. Did you attempt to reach him in the same manner? If not, do you remember why? Is it possible that part of the attraction you feel for him comes from the fact that he tried to reach you for so long - and even held the candle for you into his fifties? That would be IMO quite a turn-on.

 

Using your words, he was afraid "to share all of himself with his wife from the get go" because he wanted a relationship with her, not marriage. She wanted to get married, she wanted children, she wanted a family. He accepted that that was important to her and that for her that was a natural consequence of their relationship.

This doesn't hold water for me. If someone really wants a relationship a true relationship, that is when they really do share all of themselves. Otherwise, they don't have a relationship - not really. If, on the other hand, their goal is to get married, that is when they may not share all - because the goal is different. So from this description, I could see more how she wasn't willing to share all of herself - as opposed to his unwillingness to share all of himself....

 

He is a man of his words. Once married, he has tried to stand by his vows, even to the extent of staying while being in love with another.

This I get.

[jennie-jennie]

This is sad. Did you attempt to reach him in the same manner? If not, do you remember why? Is it possible that part of the attraction you feel for him comes from the fact that he tried to reach you for so long - and even held the candle for you into his fifties? That would be IMO quite a turn-on.

I did. Once. He promised to write to me when we parted, but didn't get around to it. And then when my letter to him arrived 8 months later, he had gotten a girlfriend, and she of course did not want him to respond to me, so he didn't. Until he had broken up with her, and then it was too late, I had moved again. He broke my heart at the time by not answering me.

 

Have you read about rekindling, silk? Apparently there is a very strong power in rekindled relationships if the relationship was ended in your youth by circumstances beyond your control. They warn married people to get in contact with loved ones from their youth because of this. Apparently it awakens the teenage hormones in you.

 

It wasn't that he had kept trying to get in touch with me. But can you imagine seeing his name on an email after 31 years? I remember reading his email, and realizing that this is a man I could love. You know, silk, he was already in my heart and I in his. It just exploded from there on.

This doesn't hold water for me. If someone really wants a relationship a true relationship, that is when they really do share all of themselves. Otherwise, they don't have a relationship - not really. If, on the other hand, their goal is to get married, that is when they may not share all - because the goal is different. So from this description, I could see more how she wasn't willing to share all of herself - as opposed to his unwillingness to share all of himself....

I truly believe it goes back to his childhood. He comes from a dysfunctional family with nervous breakdowns, sexual abuse and drug abuse. He was the good child. I think he learned early on to stuff away his own needs and be there for everybody else.

 

Also he had been single for several years when he met his wife. He was worried he would not meet someone, he wanted a girlfriend, he wanted a relationship.

This I get.

Good. I do like talking to you, because, even when we do not agree, I feel you are coming from a place where you want me well and are trying to understand. Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[bananalaffytaffy]

Fields, I have not seen you be on topic in a single post of yours on this thread. It seems you have a different agenda all together. Please keep to the topic in question.

Oh, I think it's very much on topic, but you choose not address it. The premise of your thread, IIRC, is can MM take what he's learned from you and use it in his marriage. Field's post stated that no way he's giving his M 100% while giving you 100%.

But he COULD take what he's learned from you and do just that.

[silktricks]

Have you read about rekindling, silk? Apparently there is a very strong power in rekindled relationships if the relationship was ended in your youth by circumstances beyond your control. They warn married people to get in contact with loved ones from their youth because of this. Apparently it awakens the teenage hormones in you.

I haven't read anything about this. It wouldn't have any effect on me, because I never fell in love as a teenager. I can see how it could have a powerful effect, though.

 

 

I truly believe it goes back to his childhood. He comes from a dysfunctional family with nervous breakdowns, sexual abuse and drug abuse. He was the good child. I think he learned early on to stuff away his own needs and be there for everybody else.

 

Also he had been single for several years when he met his wife. He was worried he would not meet someone, he wanted a girlfriend, he wanted a relationship.

This I totally get. We all have a tremendously difficult time breaking out of the role we are cast in when we are young. If our role is to be caretaker, then quite often that is what we will do for the rest of our lives - even if at some point it becomes anathema. Often, the best we can do is break away for a short respite before going right back to it again.

 

In fact, if this is his role, you may need to be careful that if you do end up being married to each other, he doesn't fall back into the same model with you. It's easier to break away from our youthful role when we are rebelling full-throttle - which (as I see it) is something he is doing with you. If your role in his life should change, it could also trigger a change in how he sees his role towards you.

Good. I do like talking to you, because, even when we do not agree, I feel you are coming from a place where you want me well and are trying to understand.

I am, I do and I am . I have a hunch that we'd be friends IRL.

[HappyAtLast]

 

He grew scared when I did not allow him to put me back in the mother and wifey box.

 

 

If I may, the question that you need to ask yourself is how you got into this box in the first place and how to stay out of it to aid your continued reconciliation (i believe you have reconciled, if my, my apologies for having you mixed with another)

[Fieldsofgold]

Fields, I have not seen you be on topic in a single post of yours on this thread. It seems you have a different agenda all together. Please keep to the topic in question.

 

I was simply responding to YOUR lengthy post, which I quoted in my reply. Sorry you didn't like what I said.

 

No doubt if I had been bashing his poor wife, sympathizing with him and saying how he should leave her for you, you would not have has the same response.

Edited June 11, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[jennie-jennie]

This I totally get. We all have a tremendously difficult time breaking out of the role we are cast in when we are young. If our role is to be caretaker, then quite often that is what we will do for the rest of our lives - even if at some point it becomes anathema. Often, the best we can do is break away for a short respite before going right back to it again.

 

In fact, if this is his role, you may need to be careful that if you do end up being married to each other, he doesn't fall back into the same model with you. It's easier to break away from our youthful role when we are rebelling full-throttle - which (as I see it) is something he is doing with you. If your role in his life should change, it could also trigger a change in how he sees his role towards you.

 

This is one reason I would never marry him. I don't want him to keep his vows to me after the expire date.

 

We have discussed how important it is to realize what patterns you are bringing with you, and try to change them, be open about them, find new ways of functioning, rather than thinking: oh we have such a great relationship, I am so completely different than his wife, I am so special to him, he is so special to me.

 

This is why he told me the other day he had been very attracted to this woman's body. He wants it out in the open. He knows he is capable of cheating, so do I. It is not I or our relationship that is magically different. It is the work you put into changing patterns.

 

I am, I do and I am . I have a hunch that we'd be friends IRL.

[jennie-jennie]

It's easier to break away from our youthful role when we are rebelling full-throttle - which (as I see it) is something he is doing with you.

 

This I believe to be true. Very significant observation. I think you are correct here.

Edited June 11, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[HappyAtLast]

Please disregard my last post. After re-reading, it seems rude, which, truly is not how I meant it.

 

I just often think about how my wife and I continuing to be boyfriend and girlfriend has contributed greatly to the longevity and happiness of my marriage.

 

Apologies for being unintentionally rude.

[jennie-jennie]

I was simply responding to YOUR lengthy post, which I quoted in my reply. Sorry you didn't like what I said.

 

No doubt if I had been bashing his poor wife, sympathizing with him and saying how he should leave her for you, you would not have has the same response.

 

It is obvious you know nothing about me. I believe even the BSs on LS can verify that I am not into wife bashing, and certainly not into wife bashing my MM's wife. I have never talked badly about her, on the contrary, I have pretty much praised her and told that I admire her character traits.

 

But you are correct in that I do not find your posts helpful.

[bentnotbroken]

I was simply responding to YOUR lengthy post, which I quoted in my reply. Sorry you didn't like what I said.

 

No doubt if I had been bashing his poor wife, sympathizing with him and saying how he should leave her for you, you would not have has the same response.

 

 

You are so right. The responses to certain posts are never answered or accused of being off topic, bashing, rude or whatever. I still think there is a weak water "man" causing others trauma and drama because he hasn't matured yet.

[jennie-jennie]

You are so right. The responses to certain posts are never answered or accused of being off topic, bashing, rude or whatever. I still think there is a weak water "man" causing others trauma and drama because he hasn't matured yet.

 

It is very easy for a thread on LS to slip off topic and into the same ol', same ol'. I am sorry if you do not like my efforts to keep this thread on topic.

[bentnotbroken]

It is very easy for a thread on LS to slip off topic and into the same ol', same ol'. I am sorry if you do not like my efforts to keep this thread on topic.

 

 

It's not a matter of like or dislike. It appears that staying on topic for you is only a concern when you need it to be.

[JustJoe]

Be fair, BNB. It's Jennie's thread to begin with and I think that the OP should be the one who says what is on-topic or not.

[Circular]

Now I am confused. I thought you were the one who initiated the breakup, and that it was done for the young kids' sake. So did you go NC for your MOW' childrens' sake? If she had had no children, would you have stayed in your marriages then? I hope it is okay that I am asking.

 

We had tried to break up multiple times. And I could see the toll it was having on her regarding her kids and wanting to be a great role model to them and the amount of time and dedication she wanted to focus on them we had talked about it many times.

 

So, yes I did NC for her childrens sake. I definitely didn't do it for mine . Regarding staying in the marriages, I'd have to guess on that because the factor of the kids has always been a component of the relationship. But, I'd say it would definitely be on the table to leave them.

[Owl]

I think we agree, Owl. My MM is not going to work on his marriage until he is done with me. He realizes it is no use. No more premature NC.

 

So he's giving up on working on his marriage then, right?

 

Completely stopped any efforts at improvement or reconciliation with her?

 

Then there's no discussion about him applying what he's learned in his affair with you to the marriage...because he's got no reason to do so, right?

[bentnotbroken]

Be fair, BNB. It's Jennie's thread to begin with and I think that the OP should be the one who says what is on-topic or not.

 

 

That's as fair as it gets today.

[pureinheart]

QUOTE (Jennie-Jennie): "My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that."

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me!"*

 

So this man is doing all this for you, AND took a traveling job so you could be with him, week at a time. *AND yet you say he is there meeting the needs of his wife and six young children???*

 

There is no freaking way. First if all, the very fact that he has a mistress is NOT meeting the needs of his wife and children.

 

There is no way he can invest the time and emotional energy that you say he sinks into you, and still have plenty for his wife and family. Just being a good parent to six young kids is a full-time job, if you do it right.*

 

Oh, he may be great with the kids the few hours he's home and not lost in thought about his affair/marriage partners/issues. But that's like giving a child a bite of the most delicious steak. It may be wonderful at the moment, but over the long haul it won't sustain them.*

 

There is just no way he can divide his time and emotional energy among the 10 of you, and really do his W and kids justice. **

 

Hopefully this is not a dup reply as I saw Jennie replied also, and correct me if I am wrong, I am giving an account of my own sitch also.

 

On some level he is meeting his families needs. Business trips he's be gone anyway. He loves his kids in a different way so I don't see this any different than if he were D'ed.

 

Obviously his W has disdain concerning this matter else she be kicking and screaming...so it's mostlikely the financial security that keeps her. "Cheaper to keep him" possibly?

 

FOG this is not the message you are sending that I am replying to, as I am saying this to past perceptions...most of the time the BS is portrayed as the "unknowing victim"...certainly there are those circumstances..although I see the BS (which is what I was moreso than not) as the knowing S. If I stayed or whatever it was choice...if D-Day ocurred it was choice and if I left it was choice.

 

Personally my exH began to travel with his job...I enjoyed this...I worked also, took care of the kids and had MY freedom...I liked the money he sent home:D...and really didn't care what he was doing...it was one big party for me. Talk about freedom on the other foot!