Chronological Catch 22

[Silly_Girl]

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What I was trying to say LD .. Is that if a MM (for instance) has both the W & the OW .. he is a happier camper ... Marriage is probably happier because of his guilt (nicer to the wife) and fulfillment. Life is probably nicer because he has two women instead of one..

 

Totally! This completely matches my experience.

[Silly_Girl]

I am just conveying what my MM has said, that there is a part of him he has never shared with his wife.

 

I believe my xMM when he told me how superficial (compared to his R with me) his communications were with his wife. He hadn't grasped this before meeting me because she and his parents were his only role models in terms of how relationships 'should' be. She's an intensely private/shy person and when they met they were similar in that way, but MM changed over time and the emotional distance grew between them. They have a useful friendship in terms of shared interests and accepting one another, living alongside one another, knowing each other's habits and preferences.

 

I have thought a lot that if MM can take some of what we shared back to his M it really might make all the difference. He enojoyed some 'firsts' with me and it boosted his confidence and made him more open-minded and perhaps he and his wife will benefit now I'm gone.

[jennie-jennie]

I believe my xMM when he told me how superficial (compared to his R with me) his communications were with his wife. He hadn't grasped this before meeting me because she and his parents were his only role models in terms of how relationships 'should' be. She's an intensely private/shy person and when they met they were similar in that way, but MM changed over time and the emotional distance grew between them. They have a useful friendship in terms of shared interests and accepting one another, living alongside one another, knowing each other's habits and preferences.

 

I have thought a lot that if MM can take some of what we shared back to his M it really might make all the difference. He enojoyed some 'firsts' with me and it boosted his confidence and made him more open-minded and perhaps he and his wife will benefit now I'm gone.

 

Interesting. I think this is a reoccurring theme in many extramarital relationships, that the MM/MW realizes that there can be more to a love relationship than what they understood so far.

 

So you have this married couple, and together they have this much potential. That is how far they can get on their own. Add an extramarital relationship of some depth and length, and the MP learns that there can be more to it.

 

Can he/she bring that back with him/her into the marriage or has he/she in fact already moved on?

[Silly_Girl]

Interesting. I think this is a reoccurring theme in many extramarital relationships, that the MM/MW realizes that there can be more to a love relationship than what they understood so far.

 

So you have this married couple, and together they have this much potential. That is how far they can get on their own. Add an extramarital relationship of some depth and length, and the MP learns that there can be more to it.

 

Can he/she bring that back with him/her into the marriage or has he/she in fact already moved on?

 

I think it takes phenomenal effort on both parts to transform a R. Not sure it's possible if MM doesn't disclose the A, or manage to point to an event that has triggered changes.

 

In my xMM's R I don't imagine there being any fundamental changes, if anything I think the guilt will grow that he hasn't provided his wife with the things he provided to me, and that he can't feel about her the same way. She won't know why there is a change and may be frustrated at the additional burden being put on her if he attempts to move the relationship forward.

 

Hope I'm wrong. Hope they end up happy as pigs in sh**.

[Myowntwofeet]

Interesting post Jeanie

 

When we had our dday we sat and talked for a long time after he had made the decision to stay and work on the marriage. Ours was unlike most as it was far reaching, she learned of so much.

 

Ironically, he said to me.... I have to hope we can have what "we" have.... it was incredibly painful to hear that he thought he could recreate it.... but I sat through it and smiled. In the next breath he said they both came to realize that they never had intimacy in their marriage, they were parallel.

 

As *nice as the thought is... I don't believe intimacy can be learned but I came to realize her initial accepting of all she had learned made him think it was possible she could live it.

 

I personally find that extremely hopeful and somewhat unrealistic... not to mention the added stress to the BS ( who knew what we had experienced together).

 

I have no idea how they are doing today and won't speculate...but as I have said many times before... I do believe I am occasionally in her bed at night and I know she was in mine on a few occasions after dday. Had I thought she had something I didn't with the man I loved... I would have never been able to let that go for any real length of time, it would always haunted me and hindered any real " growth" I may be possible of making.

[jennie-jennie]

Interesting post Jeanie

 

When we had our dday we sat and talked for a long time after he had made the decision to stay and work on the marriage. Ours was unlike most as it was far reaching, she learned of so much.

 

Ironically, he said to me... I have to hope we can have what "we" have.... it was incredibly painful to hear that he thought he could recreate it.... but I sat through it and smiled. In the next breath he said they both came to realize that they never had intimacy in their marriage, they were parallel.

 

Ain't that the truth?!!

As *nice as the thought is... I don't believe intimacy can be learned but I came to realize her initial accepting of all she had learned made him think it was possible she could live it.

 

I personally find that extremely hopeful and somewhat unrealistic... not to mention the added stress to the BS ( who knew what we had experienced together).

See this is what I am thinking too. There was no need to work for this intimacy to appear in the extramarital relationship. It was the result of the deep bond between two people. Now the MM hopes this can be recreated by working on the marriage?

 

I have no idea how they are doing today and won't speculate...but as I have said many times before... I do believe I am occasionally in her bed at night and I know she was in mine on a few occasions after dday. Had I thought she had something I didn't with the man I loved... I would have never been able to let that go for any real length of time, it would always haunted me and hindered any real " growth" I may be possible of making.

This is why the OW doesn't feel competition with the wife, why she can relax and be content in her relationship with the MM. He is hers. Edited June 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[silverplanets]

 

The chronological order is important here. My MM now wonders, what if he had brought this into his marriage with his wife. He knows what they had before his affair, but could they have more now that he has changed? Now that he has shared his innermost thoughts, his former secret world, with another woman, could he do that with his wife as well?

 

I have seen other MM be in this Catch 22 position as well. They feel they have not done all they could for their marriage, since they have not given to the marriage what they have given to the extramarital relationship. Yet they have never been able to do that earlier because they did not have it available to them before the affair, and now they can't either because they are involved with another woman.

 

To the OW this is more or less an insult. I was the one who had this impact on you, and now you want to share it with your wife? It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible? They had many years of marriage, perhaps decades of marriage behind them, not having this kind of relationship. Is it enough that the MM has now changed because of the extramarital relationship? And is it at all possible to transfer what he has with the OW to the relationship with his wife?

 

So the MM knows what he had with his wife before the affair, and that is no longer enough for him, which is why he reached outside the marriage. But having learnt what he was missing, can he bring that knowledge with him back into the marriage and expect to find it there? Or is it tied to the bond he now has formed with the OW?

 

Really good observation Jennie and I for one believe it is perfectly possible for them to re-integrate it back into their marriage. In fact I'd go far as to say it's essential that they do so.

 

The best WS/BS make-ups seems to come from understanding that the old relationship is gone and that they need to build a new one .. and as part of this it's a great time for the WS to bring out all these needs etc they now have (and which they learned were important to them from the AP).

 

Looking at the start of an A I think it's also fairly easy to see how the WS is cpmfprtable to be so honest and open with the A partner .. the WS has nothing to loose !!! Their already have their security etc etc and so on with the BS, and so can take risks on openess with the AP knowing that if the AP rejects them they haven't risked anything. So maybe, yes, they do bring up things and go into "spaces" that they wouldn't risk doing so in their main relationship.

 

Unfortunately they are then left with a dilema if the AP doesn't found this "honest" them to be offputting. They now have somone who likes them warts and all ... whereas at home they have someone whom they have never shown their full self to.

 

They may not even have deliberately kept things from their spouse, it may be, as you say, until they spent time alone with the AP and were free to just be "themselves" that they didn't even realise certain things or aspects of themselves.

 

And yes, I do think that is there final dilema .. it;s not so much letting go of the AP, it's the feeling that if they loose the AP then they also loose this "new" them. The thought of going back into the marriage only is a bit like shutting this new found "them" back into a box ... and that is why I think it's so hard to do.

 

It's not a catch 22 though. As soon as the spouse knows about the affair then there will, most likely at some point once the knives have stopped flying , a chance to introduce this new "them" under the guise of "needs that weren't being met" ... and , if they work together then they can create a whole new relationship which does recognise that new them.

 

This is especially true if they go to MC .. where the whole process at one point will be centered on identifying the needs that weren't being met ... and lo and behold they can introduce all their new found needs etc here.

 

So A's are of course different, and repeated strayers aren't likely to have any self-development epiphany, but for the classic lonely partner who is feeling isolated and finds someone else to fill their needs then I think this can apply.

 

The key part for me is this .. I think they are only able to be so open and honest to the AP and bring out that "deep them" because they are NOT on their best behaviouor ... as unlike a normal courtship they are not in any way betting their future on it. So they can be much more cavalier and courageous.

 

It;s worth also thinking that as the AP you are seeing them behave in this manner and it looks so "strong" but in reality it's just that they have a safety net and so aren't taking any risk.

 

Take that safety net away (which is what a D-day does) and you get to see a differnet side of them.

 

Good thread

[jennie-jennie]

Really good observation Jennie and I for one believe it is perfectly possible for them to re-integrate it back into their marriage. In fact I'd go far as to say it's essential that they do so.

 

The best WS/BS make-ups seems to come from understanding that the old relationship is gone and that they need to build a new one .. and as part of this it's a great time for the WS to bring out all these needs etc they now have (and which they learned were important to them from the AP).

 

Looking at the start of an A I think it's also fairly easy to see how the WS is cpmfprtable to be so honest and open with the A partner .. the WS has nothing to loose !!! Their already have their security etc etc and so on with the BS, and so can take risks on openess with the AP knowing that if the AP rejects them they haven't risked anything. So maybe, yes, they do bring up things and go into "spaces" that they wouldn't risk doing so in their main relationship.

 

Unfortunately they are then left with a dilema if the AP doesn't found this "honest" them to be offputting. They now have somone who likes them warts and all ... whereas at home they have someone whom they have never shown their full self to.

 

They may not even have deliberately kept things from their spouse, it may be, as you say, until they spent time alone with the AP and were free to just be "themselves" that they didn't even realise certain things or aspects of themselves.

 

And yes, I do think that is there final dilema .. it;s not so much letting go of the AP, it's the feeling that if they loose the AP then they also loose this "new" them. The thought of going back into the marriage only is a bit like shutting this new found "them" back into a box ... and that is why I think it's so hard to do.

 

It's not a catch 22 though. As soon as the spouse knows about the affair then there will, most likely at some point once the knives have stopped flying , a chance to introduce this new "them" under the guise of "needs that weren't being met" ... and , if they work together then they can create a whole new relationship which does recognise that new them.

 

This is especially true if they go to MC .. where the whole process at one point will be centered on identifying the needs that weren't being met ... and lo and behold they can introduce all their new found needs etc here.

 

So A's are of course different, and repeated strayers aren't likely to have any self-development epiphany, but for the classic lonely partner who is feeling isolated and finds someone else to fill their needs then I think this can apply.

 

The key part for me is this .. I think they are only able to be so open and honest to the AP and bring out that "deep them" because they are NOT on their best behaviouor ... as unlike a normal courtship they are not in any way betting their future on it. So they can be much more cavalier and courageous.

 

It;s worth also thinking that as the AP you are seeing them behave in this manner and it looks so "strong" but in reality it's just that they have a safety net and so aren't taking any risk.

 

Take that safety net away (which is what a D-day does) and you get to see a differnet side of them.

 

Good thread

 

I agree with almost everything you say here, Silverplanets, except this part:

The key part for me is this .. I think they are only able to be so open and honest to the AP and bring out that "deep them" because they are NOT on their best behaviouor ... as unlike a normal courtship they are not in any way betting their future on it. So they can be much more cavalier and courageous.

I have experience of this in a regular relationship, no third party involved, so I know it is not necessary for the affair to be a factor. It depends on the parties involved, which is why one can not know whether or not it is possible with the BS in question.

 

I am like this in all my intimate relationships, so that also minimized the risk, since I too shared that "deep me".

Edited June 10, 2010 by jennie-jennie

[jennie-jennie]

It's not a catch 22 though. As soon as the spouse knows about the affair then there will, most likely at some point once the knives have stopped flying , a chance to introduce this new "them" under the guise of "needs that weren't being met" ... and , if they work together then they can create a whole new relationship which does recognise that new them.

 

Relabeling would do the trick. You are right about that.

 

But I still believe it is a Catch 22, because unless you are over your AP, you won't be able to work on your marriage.

[silverplanets]

I agree with almost everything you say here, Silverplanets, except this part:

I have experience of this in a regular relationship, no third party involved, so I know it is not necessary for the affair to be a factor. It depends on the parties involved, which is why one can not know whether or not it is possible with the BS in question.

 

I am like this in all my intimate relationships, so that also minimized the risk, since I too shared that "deep me".

 

Yes, I'd agree with you on this .. I wasn't perfectly happy with that paragraph myself and realised that it would not always be the affair that is the factor in allowing this "openess/discovery" .. it could indeed be the AP's character, as you say.

 

It could also just be time, the WS's own development etc etc

 

So, yep, agree with that ...

[silverplanets]

Relabeling would do the trick. You are right about that.

 

But I still believe it is a Catch 22, because unless you are over your AP, you won't be able to work on your marriage.

 

true - whether they can "succesfully" re-integrate the new "them" into the marriage long term does require them to "let go" of their AP .. and if they can't do that then it just ain't going to happen ...

 

If they do choose (or agree) to do that though as part of moving on with their spouse, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it succesfully and move the relationship they have with their spouse on to a whole new level.

 

I suppose at least the OW/OM has the "pleasure" of knowing they helped them both get to this new level

[jennie-jennie]

true - whether they can "succesfully" re-integrate the new "them" into the marriage long term does require them to "let go" of their AP .. and if they can't do that then it just ain't going to happen ...

 

If they do choose (or agree) to do that though as part of moving on with their spouse, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it succesfully and move the relationship they have with their spouse on to a whole new level.

I suppose at least the OW/OM has the "pleasure" of knowing they helped them both get to this new level

 

Yeah, great...

[silktricks]

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What I was trying to say LD .. Is that if a MM (for instance) has both the W & the OW .. he is a happier camper ... Marriage is probably happier because of his guilt (nicer to the wife) and fulfillment. Life is probably nicer because he has two women instead of one..

 

hmmm - I disagree. My husband was NEVER so mean and overall crappy to me as when he was cheating. He had to work to convince himself that I really was all that he had rewritten me to be, so that he had a good "excuse" to cheat. Though possibly it does work this way for some.

[Silly_Girl]

hmmm - I disagree. My husband was NEVER so mean and overall crappy to me as when he was cheating. He had to work to convince himself that I really was all that he had rewritten me to be, so that he had a good "excuse" to cheat. Though possibly it does work this way for some.

 

My ex was mean to me when he was cheating, like he was angry with himself, but it came out as hostility against me.

 

My xMM was nicer to his wife, it seems, because he felt so bad. He'd make an effort on the weekends they had, so he could go off to me the other weekends with less guilt (and grief).

[silktricks]

Interesting answer, silk. This could very well be the case.

 

But isn't it an insult to the wife that the extramarital relationship has affected her husband in such a profound way? I understand he is not likely to tell her this is what has happened, but to you as a BS, what do you think about it?

 

 

Well... the EMR is definitely an insult - yes - and would I personally be insulted? I don't know if insult is the right work, but I'd be hurt immensely that this other woman was able to encourage growth in my husband in a way that I had not been able to - or conversely (if I didn't really like it:laugh:) in a way that I didn't want.

 

But, that said, my husband comes in constant contact with other people, as do I. Those people we come in contact with create change in us. I would not want my husband to become cocooned simply so that he didn't change and I could stay in my comfort zone. Sometimes things create change that are very painful - yet when all is said and done - changed or no, he is the man I love. Growth doesn't invalidate that love, nor does change damage it.

 

So.... if I was in that situation I would hope that I would be able to see the good of the change and take in the fact that it would improve OUR relationship for the better and embrace it regardless of the original source.

[Owl]

I'd say that the situation that Jennie described doesn't seem all that odd to me.

 

Most people will take what they learn in one place that benefits them and apply it in other situations where it will benefit them.

 

I'd agree that if her MM did apply things he'd learned from the affair to his marriage...his wife would never thank anyone for that. I doubt his wife would ever consider the affair as "OK" because of the improvements that might have come into her marriage as a result.

 

Is it "fair" to the OW that MM do this? I dunno...I don't think that "fair" has any play really in ANY aspect of an affair. It's certainly not fair to the BS in any aspect. I'd agree that it might not be "fair" to the OW either...but the OW is in the position to know and anticipate what's going on...I don't know how realistic it is for an OW to expect any kind of "fair" in that situation either.

 

As far as the chronological aspect of all of this....pipe smoke is all that is. We can all spend our days pondering every "what if" in our pasts if we choose to...but there's no value in it.

 

If he knew this, if he did that...would he still marry her? There's no way to know, and it's a waste of time contemplating silliness like that. It's nothing more than an excellent method of deflecting focus on actually making a change in the situation in front of him.

[silktricks]

 

{snip}

 

The best WS/BS make-ups seems to come from understanding that the old relationship is gone and that they need to build a new one .. and as part of this it's a great time for the WS to bring out all these needs etc they now have (and which they learned were important to them from the AP).

 

Looking at the start of an A I think it's also fairly easy to see how the WS is cpmfprtable to be so honest and open with the A partner .. the WS has nothing to loose !!! Their already have their security etc etc and so on with the BS, and so can take risks on openess with the AP knowing that if the AP rejects them they haven't risked anything. So maybe, yes, they do bring up things and go into "spaces" that they wouldn't risk doing so in their main relationship.

This is usually how people are at the beginning of any relationship, though - not just an A. In the beginning there isn't anything to lose, so there is greater honesty. The key to keeping a good marriage (IMO) is being able to continue to share with that same level of honesty - even when having everything to lose.

 

Unfortunately they are then left with a dilema if the AP doesn't found this "honest" them to be offputting. They now have somone who likes them warts and all ... whereas at home they have someone whom they have never shown their full self to.

 

They may not even have deliberately kept things from their spouse, it may be, as you say, until they spent time alone with the AP and were free to just be "themselves" that they didn't even realise certain things or aspects of themselves.

 

And yes, I do think that is there final dilema .. it;s not so much letting go of the AP, it's the feeling that if they loose the AP then they also loose this "new" them. The thought of going back into the marriage only is a bit like shutting this new found "them" back into a box ... and that is why I think it's so hard to do.

 

It's not a catch 22 though. As soon as the spouse knows about the affair then there will, most likely at some point once the knives have stopped flying , a chance to introduce this new "them" under the guise of "needs that weren't being met" ... and , if they work together then they can create a whole new relationship which does recognise that new them.

 

This is especially true if they go to MC .. where the whole process at one point will be centered on identifying the needs that weren't being met ... and lo and behold they can introduce all their new found needs etc here.

And, of course, the BS can also identify their needs which have not been met. If that part isn't done, then IMO the marriage will not survive long term, either. As I'll bet in most cases the BS needs which are not being met are at least as extensive as those of the WS whose are not being met.

 

The key part for me is this .. I think they are only able to be so open and honest to the AP and bring out that "deep them" because they are NOT on their best behavior ... as unlike a normal courtship they are not in any way betting their future on it. So they can be much more cavalier and courageous.

I would disagree with this, as any courtship I've experienced has been inclusive of my deep self. If they don't want the real me, then I don't want to be with them...

 

[Circular]

hmmm - I disagree. My husband was NEVER so mean and overall crappy to me as when he was cheating. He had to work to convince himself that I really was all that he had rewritten me to be, so that he had a good "excuse" to cheat. Though possibly it does work this way for some.

 

For me in the initial phases of the A I became so focused on the AP that I became distant from my W, she definitely felt it but I wasn't mean about it I just used the 'work is so busy' excuse, lots of stress, etc.. etc...

 

In the second phase of the relationship once you get over the high of it all I was actually much nicer to my wife. Reflecting back I don't think it was guilt, I just felt I was getting all my needs met, I was happier.

 

In the final phase though, where we started having discussions about breaking up the A is when the rollercoaster really started and the ups and downs really started getting to me. I found myself resenting my W even more which I didn't expect but it was the realization I think that the problems with our M I was going to have to deal with all over again. This wasn't necessarily a bad thing as it bubbled to the top a lot of bigger issues I'd avoided talking to my W about.

 

I guess I went from distant, to nice, to mean and now just more back to the middle ground.

[2sure]

 

.... I was the one who had this impact on you, and now you want to share it with your wife? It is like the MM wants to have the relationship he has with the OW with the wife, but is that even possible? The dymanics of an affair exist ONLY in an affair. If the APs marry, its no longer an affair - good or bad - dynamics DO change.

Your MM is basically saying that everything would be perfect if only he could have an affiar with his wife!! Its insulting yes, but not possible for what its worth.

[Circular]

true - whether they can "succesfully" re-integrate the new "them" into the marriage long term does require them to "let go" of their AP .. and if they can't do that then it just ain't going to happen ...

 

If they do choose (or agree) to do that though as part of moving on with their spouse, then there is no reason why they shouldn't be able to do it succesfully and move the relationship they have with their spouse on to a whole new level.

 

I suppose at least the OW/OM has the "pleasure" of knowing they helped them both get to this new level

 

I agree with this. I don't think you can adapt your M while you have an OW as you need to be 100% emotionally available and focused on the relationship your trying to rebuild and reintegrate into.

 

I don't know if I agree with the 2nd paragraph. Being that the way things played out and I broke off my A I'm trying to reintegrate some of those things myself as I realized keeping them in a tupperware box was lethal to my well being. Some of those things I can bring in and am BUT my W isn't my OW they are different people there were things uniquely different about my OW that complimented those parts of me. I can't teach my W for example how to get a sense of humor that compliments mine, that's just a simple example.

[whichwayisup]

As happy as you can be with no sex and intimacy that is.

 

Yep, he is leading a double life, but it is not easy on him.

 

He sleeps in their bed almost every night and they don't ever have sex, or any type of intimacy? No cuddles, no hugging, no holding hands, no massages, back scratches, no sex - Yet he claims to have a happy marriage, he does love his wife and really can't say that much bad about her or their marriage? Only 2 that know the 'real' truth there are him and his wife. He can tell you nothing ever is going on between them..

[jennie-jennie]

Well... the EMR is definitely an insult - yes - and would I personally be insulted? I don't know if insult is the right work, but I'd be hurt immensely that this other woman was able to encourage growth in my husband in a way that I had not been able to - or conversely (if I didn't really like it:laugh:) in a way that I didn't want.

 

But, that said, my husband comes in constant contact with other people, as do I. Those people we come in contact with create change in us. I would not want my husband to become cocooned simply so that he didn't change and I could stay in my comfort zone. Sometimes things create change that are very painful - yet when all is said and done - changed or no, he is the man I love. Growth doesn't invalidate that love, nor does change damage it.

 

So.... if I was in that situation I would hope that I would be able to see the good of the change and take in the fact that it would improve OUR relationship for the better and embrace it regardless of the original source.

 

Interesting and well thought through answer as always, silk. Thank you.

 

I have yet one question if you don't mind. About the WS being affected by the extramarital relationship when it comes to his attitude towards sex. Wouldn't it feel like the OW was in your bedroom? Wouldn't this be harder to accept than any other change?

 

The reason I am asking is because I know my MM has become much freer and accepting towards himself as a sexual being through our relationship. I am again not talking about sexual tricks or skills, but more a liberating attitude towards sex in general.

[Circular]

Interesting and well thought through answer as always, silk. Thank you.

 

I have yet one question if you don't mind. About the WS being affected by the extramarital relationship when it comes to his attitude towards sex. Wouldn't it feel like the OW was in your bedroom? Wouldn't this be harder to accept than any other change?

 

The reason I am asking is because I know my MM has become much freer and accepting towards himself as a sexual being through our relationship. I am again not talking about sexual tricks or skills, but more a liberating attitude towards sex in general.

 

I think this is going to be a tough part for the MM. The OW is on my mind during sex as it is, if my W started doing things more like her that would just make it more difficult.

 

As a side note, I've often wondered if thinking about the AP during sex with the BS reinforces the bond with the AP when the Oxytocin is released.

[jennie-jennie]

As far as the chronological aspect of all of this....pipe smoke is all that is. We can all spend our days pondering every "what if" in our pasts if we choose to...but there's no value in it.

If he knew this, if he did that...would he still marry her? There's no way to know, and it's a waste of time contemplating silliness like that. It's nothing more than an excellent method of deflecting focus on actually making a change in the situation in front of him.

 

I don't think this is it, Owl. I think my MM genuinely does not feel like he has done all he could to save his marriage. But how to go about doing that now? That's the Catch 22.

 

He would like to apply what he has learnt through the extramarital relationship and see if he could be happy with his wife alone, no affair. But he is bonded to me, and that bond prevents him from doing all he would now be able to do to save his marriage if he was not already in an extramarital relationship.

[jennie-jennie]

This is usually how people are at the beginning of any relationship, though - not just an A. In the beginning there isn't anything to lose, so there is greater honesty. The key to keeping a good marriage (IMO) is being able to continue to share with that same level of honesty - even when having everything to lose.

 

This was not true in my MM's case. He had been single for several years and was approaching thirty. He was worried he would never find a suitable partner.

And, of course, the BS can also identify their needs which have not been met. If that part isn't done, then IMO the marriage will not survive long term, either. As I'll bet in most cases the BS needs which are not being met are at least as extensive as those of the WS whose are not being met.

 

Very, very important. There are two people in a marriage.

I would disagree with this, as any courtship I've experienced has been inclusive of my deep self. If they don't want the real me, then I don't want to be with them...

 

Agreed. (Silverplanets and I already talked about this.)