Chronological Catch 22

[bananalaffytaffy]

You are so right. The responses to certain posts are never answered or accused of being off topic, bashing, rude or whatever. I still think there is a weak water "man" causing others trauma and drama because he hasn't matured yet.

Its hilarious how posts that don't agree with her or don't exault the virtues of her MM or her affair, or don't kiss her azz by insinuating that she is better than the BS are labeled OT.

Seeking validation instead of support, I guess. No skin off my nose, but it seems the polite thing to do would be to skip the post instead of tell the poster they are off topic or stick in a passive aggressive "you're not helpful" jab. If it's that OT, report it and move on.

I don't know many posters here that purposely post to be UNhelpful.

Which I have no doubt that's what this post will be seen as...

[MizFit]

Its hilarious how posts that don't agree with her or don't exault the virtues of her MM or her affair, or don't kiss her azz by insinuating that she is better than the BS are labeled OT.

Seeking validation instead of support, I guess. No skin off my nose, but it seems the polite thing to do would be to skip the post instead of tell the poster they are off topic or stick in a passive aggressive "you're not helpful" jab. If it's that OT, report it and move on.

I don't know many posters here that purposely post to be UNhelpful.

Which I have no doubt that's what this post will be seen as...

 

Well...this post is unhelpful. I, for one, have seldom seen Jennie-Jennie run away from a post. She lays her soul bare for everyone to see and the choice is theirs as to whether or not they agree with her. If you read some of the posts in this thread alone that she has responded to you'll see quite a few where she has agreed with comments that have been quite critical of her situation. I believe she's in a different time zone so rather than allude to the fact she's avoiding this just accept she may be making dinner.

 

I actually am probably speaking out of turn and apologize if I am...I don't know if she intends to respond or not, but nonetheless I still stand by the fact she is about as open and honest as they come when responding in here.

[Fieldsofgold]

Hopefully this is not a dup reply as I saw Jennie replied also, and correct me if I am wrong, I am giving an account of my own sitch also.

 

On some level he is meeting his families needs. Business trips he's be gone anyway. He loves his kids in a different way so I don't see this any different than if he were D'ed.

 

Obviously his W has disdain concerning this matter else she be kicking and screaming...so it's mostlikely the financial security that keeps her. "Cheaper to keep him" possibly?

 

FOG this is not the message you are sending that I am replying to, as I am saying this to past perceptions...most of the time the BS is portrayed as the "unknowing victim"...certainly there are those circumstances..although I see the BS (which is what I was moreso than not) as the knowing S. If I stayed or whatever it was choice...if D-Day ocurred it was choice and if I left it was choice.

 

Personally my exH began to travel with his job...I enjoyed this...I worked also, took care of the kids and had MY freedom...I liked the money he sent home:D...and really didn't care what he was doing...it was one big party for me. Talk about freedom on the other foot!

 

LOL! I see your point. My daughter and I have joked in the past that she should marry a cross country truck driver. All the financial benefits, and he'd always be gone off working!

 

And perhaps MM's wife might feel the same way. She may secretly see her husband as an immature jerk, and secretly wish he would leave. There just is no way to know what she's thinking or feeling or wanting.

 

As for the kids having the same relationship with their dad as they would in a divorce, that is true. Except they would know it's because they're divorced. As it is, they may not be able to understand why things are the way they are, at home. At the least, they are not seeing a vibrant and loving marriage relationship between their parents being modeled.

 

I do think that if MM decided to do so, he could re-direct the efforts he puts into the affair, to his W, and possibly with counseling and effort, create a really great relationship. Or he could divorce, and let his W choose what she wants while he pursues what he wants. I just think that parsing himself out, piecemeal, to everyone isn't being fair to anyone.

 

But I do think it is possible he could take what he learned from his A with the OW, and use it at home to rebuild. It would not be the same R, of course, but it might be just as good or better. But of course, he would have to decide that is what he wanted to do. And his W would have to decide she wanted to, as well.

[silktricks]

Its hilarious how posts that don't agree with her or don't exault the virtues of her MM or her affair, or don't kiss her azz by insinuating that she is better than the BS are labeled OT.

Seeking validation instead of support, I guess. No skin off my nose, but it seems the polite thing to do would be to skip the post instead of tell the poster they are off topic or stick in a passive aggressive "you're not helpful" jab. If it's that OT, report it and move on.

I don't know many posters here that purposely post to be UNhelpful.

Which I have no doubt that's what this post will be seen as...

 

Just hang on a minute. I've posted a LOT in this thread, and I haven't just agreed with her, nor exalted any virtues of MM or the affair. I certainly have not insinuated that she is in any way better that the wife - and for that matter neither has Jennie. I don't think she is better than the wife, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I would whole-heartedly agree with everything the wife does either, nor think the wife is "better" than Jennie. This whole "better than" schtick is IMO a farce anyway. Very few people are inherently "better" than someone else - barring, possibly Mother Theresa . Everyone has their good and bad, pluses and minuses.

 

You may not agree with what she is doing - I don't agree personally, either, but there is no reason to lambaste either her or other posters. Jennie has been unfailingly polite IMO.

[MizFit]

QUOTE (Jennie-Jennie): "My MM is meeting my needs, you can be sure of that."

 

My MM is always there for me.

My MM supports me in every kind of way.

My MM shows his love, affection and desire for me immensely.

My MM is very caring towards me.

My MM satisfies me very much sexually.

My MM listens to me and talks to me for hours each day.

My MM supports me in dealing with all kinds of problems, from issues with my children to money problems to dealing with repairs on my house.

My MM helps me research health issues.

My MM has helped me heal a lot of the wounds from my past.

My MM is an intellectual equal and we love discussing everything on earth.

 

I could go on and on about how he meets my needs. I just love the guy and he just loves me!"*

 

So this man is doing all this for you, AND took a traveling job so you could be with him, week at a time. *AND yet you say he is there meeting the needs of his wife and six young children???*

 

There is no freaking way. First if all, the very fact that he has a mistress is NOT meeting the needs of his wife and children.

 

There is no way he can invest the time and emotional energy that you say he sinks into you, and still have plenty for his wife and family. Just being a good parent to six young kids is a full-time job, if you do it right.*

 

Oh, he may be great with the kids the few hours he's home and not lost in thought about his affair/marriage partners/issues. But that's like giving a child a bite of the most delicious steak. It may be wonderful at the moment, but over the long haul it won't sustain them.*

 

There is just no way he can divide his time and emotional energy among the 10 of you, and really do his W and kids justice. **

 

I hate to tell you this, but he is doing it.

 

If J-J is happy and is having her needs met, then he is sorted on that front.

 

If his W were feeling as though she or the kids were being neglected things would change.

 

If he is feeling as though all of his commitments are being met and everyone in his life feels the same then who is to say he isn't meeting them?

[jennie-jennie]

Be fair, BNB. It's Jennie's thread to begin with and I think that the OP should be the one who says what is on-topic or not.

 

Good point, Joe. While some posters need extra information to understand the circumstances behind the original post, other posters are just out fishing to bash the original poster. Hence the apparent inconsequence.

[jennie-jennie]

We had tried to break up multiple times. And I could see the toll it was having on her regarding her kids and wanting to be a great role model to them and the amount of time and dedication she wanted to focus on them we had talked about it many times.

 

So, yes I did NC for her childrens sake. I definitely didn't do it for mine . Regarding staying in the marriages, I'd have to guess on that because the factor of the kids has always been a component of the relationship. But, I'd say it would definitely be on the table to leave them.

 

Thanks, Circular, for clarifying.

 

I read your posts on this thread to my MM yesterday. He found them very helpful.

[silktricks]

I do think that if MM decided to do so, he could re-direct the efforts he puts into the affair, to his W, and possibly with counseling and effort, create a really great relationship. Or he could divorce, and let his W choose what she wants while he pursues what he wants. I just think that parsing himself out, piecemeal, to everyone isn't being fair to anyone.

Right - he's getting what he wants.

 

But I do think it is possible he could take what he learned from his A with the OW, and use it at home to rebuild. It would not be the same R, of course, but it might be just as good or better. But of course, he would have to decide that is what he wanted to do. And his W would have to decide she wanted to, as well.

I absolutely agree. I think he probably could rebuild his marriage into what he now wants. Unfortunately, though, from the sound of things, it doesn't really seem like he has the uhmmmm intestinal fortitude to do so.

 

At base, he seems to be a likable enough guy who (at least from my viewpoint - skewed as it may be ) is a bit of a coward. He didn't want to show his real self to his prospective bride in fear that he'd not be able to find another relationship (at 30 ---- practically a baby ).. Spent the next 20+ years hiding some pretty important parts of himself from everyone he supposedly loved, in fear that they would reject him.

 

Now he's able to be his "whole self" with Jennie, but is afraid that if he leaves his wife to be with Jennie that their relationship may dwindle and he'd be left with nothing. So in his fear of being alone he first screwed himself of having a real relationship with his wife, his wife of having a real relationship with anyone, Jennie of having a complete relationship with him, and himself all over again of having a complete relationship he claims that he wants that is accepted and known by all.

 

A synopsis of the gentleman from my point of view... Sorry, Jennie, like I said, I know you love him, but really, I can't say that I'm too fond of him...

[jennie-jennie]

[/b]

 

LOL! I see your point. My daughter and I have joked in the past that she should marry a cross country truck driver. All the financial benefits, and he'd always be gone off working!

 

And perhaps MM's wife might feel the same way. She may secretly see her husband as an immature jerk, and secretly wish he would leave. There just is no way to know what she's thinking or feeling or wanting.

 

As for the kids having the same relationship with their dad as they would in a divorce, that is true. Except they would know it's because they're divorced. As it is, they may not be able to understand why things are the way they are, at home. At the least, they are not seeing a vibrant and loving marriage relationship between their parents being modeled.

 

I do think that if MM decided to do so, he could re-direct the efforts he puts into the affair, to his W, and possibly with counseling and effort, create a really great relationship. Or he could divorce, and let his W choose what she wants while he pursues what he wants. I just think that parsing himself out, piecemeal, to everyone isn't being fair to anyone.

 

But I do think it is possible he could take what he learned from his A with the OW, and use it at home to rebuild. It would not be the same R, of course, but it might be just as good or better. But of course, he would have to decide that is what he wanted to do. And his W would have to decide she wanted to, as well.

 

Thank you for keeping on topic. I agree with most of what you said here. The only problem being that he can't make up his mind what relationship to go for. The MM's dilemma: which child to let the kidnapper kill?

[Fieldsofgold]

I hate to tell you this, but he is doing it.

 

If J-J is happy and is having her needs met, then he is sorted on that front.

 

If his W were feeling as though she or the kids were being neglected things would change.

 

If he is feeling as though all of his commitments are being met and everyone in his life feels the same then who is to say he isn't meeting them?

 

You make a very valid point there. If everyone is happy, then he's successfully doing it.

 

It just seems a shame that he could have so much more - with one or the other of them - and yet he won't do it. (and each of the women could potentially have so much more, too, if he would just make a decision.)

Edited June 11, 2010 by Fieldsofgold

[Mimolicious]

I still don't understand why is your MM still M and wasting ones life????!!! At least out of respect he can set his W free so she can find her own happiness and he can move on with you. I feel for everyone in this picture. Regardless of how much 100% you think you're getting JJ or his W & Kids, everyone is getting a halfass man/father. (sorry, it's just not fair to anyone, everyone is just settling)

[jennie-jennie]

Right - he's getting what he wants.

 

I absolutely agree. I think he probably could rebuild his marriage into what he now wants. Unfortunately, though, from the sound of things, it doesn't really seem like he has the uhmmmm intestinal fortitude to do so.

 

At base, he seems to be a likable enough guy who (at least from my viewpoint - skewed as it may be ) is a bit of a coward. He didn't want to show his real self to his prospective bride in fear that he'd not be able to find another relationship (at 30 ---- practically a baby ).. Spent the next 20+ years hiding some pretty important parts of himself from everyone he supposedly loved, in fear that they would reject him.

 

Now he's able to be his "whole self" with Jennie, but is afraid that if he leaves his wife to be with Jennie that their relationship may dwindle and he'd be left with nothing. So in his fear of being alone he first screwed himself of having a real relationship with his wife, his wife of having a real relationship with anyone, Jennie of having a complete relationship with him, and himself all over again of having a complete relationship he claims that he wants that is accepted and known by all.

 

A synopsis of the gentleman from my point of view... Sorry, Jennie, like I said, I know you love him, but really, I can't say that I'm too fond of him...

 

LOL I have to say your description of him makes me laugh. I think you would like him too though, if you met him IRL. (Not the affair of course, but his personality.)

[MizFit]

You make a very valid point there. If everyone is happy, then he's successfully doing it.

 

It just seems a shame that he could have so much more - with one or the other of them - and yet he won't do it. (and each of the women could potentially have so much more, too, if he would just make a decision.)

 

I couldn't agree more with what you're saying fieldsofgold...there could be so much more with one or the other of them if he made the choice, but at the moment all of the plates are spinning. My opinion is he's been very fortunate that there hasn't been a DDay...things can go along now and all is copacetic. If a Dday were to happen there could/would be some major changes in both relationships. He still wouldn't necessarily have to make his decision, but I'm quite sure there would be some major changes to the status quo.

[silktricks]

LOL I have to say your description of him makes me laugh. I think you would like him too though, if you met him IRL. (Not the affair of course, but his personality.)

Oh, maybe so. Descriptions of people often don't exactly mesh with how they come across IRL.

 

Has he given much thought to how he's going to feel if D-Day does come and all of those spinning plates (I love that analogy, MizFit) come crashing down? Right now the whole enchilada - all decisions - are in his hands - come D-Day, maybe none of them will be. Is he truly OK with that, or has he simply not thought it through? (I'm not a person who does well with leaving my life decisions in limbo until someone else makes the decision for me, so I can't relate at all to that state of mind... but maybe he doesn't see it like that?)

[jennie-jennie]

Oh, maybe so. Descriptions of people often don't exactly mesh with how they come across IRL.

 

Has he given much thought to how he's going to feel if D-Day does come and all of those spinning plates (I love that analogy, MizFit) come crashing down? Right now the whole enchilada - all decisions - are in his hands - come D-Day, maybe none of them will be. Is he truly OK with that, or has he simply not thought it through? (I'm not a person who does well with leaving my life decisions in limbo until someone else makes the decision for me, so I can't relate at all to that state of mind... but maybe he doesn't see it like that?)

 

I believe he is seriously struggling with these issues. He is planning to find a counselor as well, just that he is so darn busy working all the time.

 

In a way I think a Dday would be a relief to him, to finally get it out in the open. He understands that at that point things are out of his control. He does not even know how he will react himself to his BS's reaction.

 

I think he is hoping that he will find the answer he is seeking before Dday, although he is realizing that the epiphany he was hoping for is not likely to happen.

[Owl]

I'd say most WS's experience both relief and stress on d-day. I think that a large percentage are scared and afraid when it all comes out, but also glad that it IS out then too.

 

My concern in your case Jennie is that if he's not had that epiphany in the last four years, he's not real likely to have it anytime soon.

 

He's not going to have an epiphany or change the situation on his own.

 

The changes are ONLY going to come as a result of decisions made by you or his wife.

[jennie-jennie]

I'd say most WS's experience both relief and stress on d-day. I think that a large percentage are scared and afraid when it all comes out, but also glad that it IS out then too.

 

My concern in your case Jennie is that if he's not had that epiphany in the last four years, he's not real likely to have it anytime soon.

 

He's not going to have an epiphany or change the situation on his own.

 

The changes are ONLY going to come as a result of decisions made by you or his wife.

 

What about going to the counselor - might that not work?

 

I am not going to make a decision for him. I refuse to do that. I might make a decision for me. If I see some other nice male @ss around. But no way am I letting him off the hook by going NC as long as I am enjoying myself and getting my needs met.

[Owl]

What about going to the counselor - might that not work?

 

It could, theoretically. But it's not likely to do so anytime in the semi-near future. Odds are, the counselor will keep the status quo for a good while before they recommend any changes...and even then that assumes a counselor that's actually looking to help the person they're counseling, and not just seeing them as a potential long term source of income.

 

I am not going to make a decision for him. I refuse to do that. I might make a decision for me. If I see some other nice male @ss around. But no way am I letting him off the hook by going NC as long as I am enjoying myself and getting my needs met.

 

Honestly I don't expect that you'd force the change either. You've been right there with him for four years, you've learned to accept the situation. You're no more likely to force a change than he is...unless something happens to change YOUR position (like some other guy coming into your life).

 

The only person who is LIKELY to force a change would be his wife once she learned the truth about the affair. She's the only one who has a vested interest in seeing the situation change. She just doesn't know that...yet.

[silktricks]

I believe he is seriously struggling with these issues. He is planning to find a counselor as well, just that he is so darn busy working all the time.

It's my experience that we can generally find the time to do the things we find really important, so I'd say he's not finding that as really important as he probably could...

 

 

I think he is hoping that he will find the answer he is seeking before Dday, although he is realizing that the epiphany he was hoping for is not likely to happen.

Interesting choice of words - was that your choice or his?

 

epiphany - a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience

 

He doesn't want the decision to be in his hands - he wants it to come from outside of himself - he probably would welcome D-Day, because then either his wife kicks him out (he doesn't need to make the choice, she makes it for him) or she demands that he leave you (he doesn't need to make the choice, again she makes it for him). Either way, he can be fairly devoid of responsibility in the choice.

 

Like most people, he (I think) wants to be seen as the "good guy", but he's gotten himself into a position that no matter what he does - to somebody he's gonna be the "bad guy". That (IMO) goes back to the role that you said he had as a child. He was the "good child" the "good guy". He says has found that he doesn't always need to be the good child/guy with you, but still underneath it all, that seems to be the central theme in his life. If he chooses you, then he's the "bad guy" to everyone else he knows. If he chooses his wife, he's the "bad guy" to you.

 

If you truly do love him (and I'm sure you do) then maybe you really do need to let him go, so that he can figure out if being with you is worth being the bad guy. 'Cuz right now he's so stuck it seems he's not able to grow past the role he's been cast in. You can't force him to make a decision, but you can help him either not be the "bad guy" or realize that he can be the "bad guy" and it's not the end of the world. But until he can reach that point, I don't think he's going to make the next step of growth. (JMO, obviously )

[JustJoe]

That's as fair as it gets today.

You get any sweeter, BNB, and you'll rot my teeth out.:love:

[jennie-jennie]

It could, theoretically. But it's not likely to do so anytime in the semi-near future. Odds are, the counselor will keep the status quo for a good while before they recommend any changes...and even then that assumes a counselor that's actually looking to help the person they're counseling, and not just seeing them as a potential long term source of income.

 

 

 

Honestly I don't expect that you'd force the change either. You've been right there with him for four years, you've learned to accept the situation. You're no more likely to force a change than he is...unless something happens to change YOUR position (like some other guy coming into your life).

 

The only person who is LIKELY to force a change would be his wife once she learned the truth about the affair. She's the only one who has a vested interest in seeing the situation change. She just doesn't know that...yet.

 

Well, we're not in a hurry because I can not move any closer to him anyway for a couple of years yet. So we are doing pretty good as is. But it would be neat if he used this time for counseling.

[jennie-jennie]

It's my experience that we can generally find the time to do the things we find really important, so I'd say he's not finding that as really important as he probably could...

 

 

Interesting choice of words - was that your choice or his?

 

epiphany - a sudden, intuitive perception of or insight into the reality or essential meaning of something, usually initiated by some simple, homely, or commonplace occurrence or experience

 

He doesn't want the decision to be in his hands - he wants it to come from outside of himself - he probably would welcome D-Day, because then either his wife kicks him out (he doesn't need to make the choice, she makes it for him) or she demands that he leave you (he doesn't need to make the choice, again she makes it for him). Either way, he can be fairly devoid of responsibility in the choice.

 

Like most people, he (I think) wants to be seen as the "good guy", but he's gotten himself into a position that no matter what he does - to somebody he's gonna be the "bad guy". That (IMO) goes back to the role that you said he had as a child. He was the "good child" the "good guy". He says has found that he doesn't always need to be the good child/guy with you, but still underneath it all, that seems to be the central theme in his life. If he chooses you, then he's the "bad guy" to everyone else he knows. If he chooses his wife, he's the "bad guy" to you.

 

If you truly do love him (and I'm sure you do) then maybe you really do need to let him go, so that he can figure out if being with you is worth being the bad guy. 'Cuz right now he's so stuck it seems he's not able to grow past the role he's been cast in. You can't force him to make a decision, but you can help him either not be the "bad guy" or realize that he can be the "bad guy" and it's not the end of the world. But until he can reach that point, I don't think he's going to make the next step of growth. (JMO, obviously )

 

Epiphany is his choice of word. Yes, like many other MM I presume, he wants the choice to be made for him. And I am not going to do that for him. I am not going to let him go, because that would be making the choice for him.

 

I think you understand him pretty well by now, silk, but don't you see that if I let him go that allows him to be the good guy once again? He will not have ended it with me, and he will not have divorced his wife. He needs to be the bad guy for once. And the only way for me to help him be so is by remaining in the affair (not that that is why I am remaining LOL).

 

You are right about prioritizing the counselor. I still have hopes that he will get around to it though. He brings it up once in a while. I think that he is scared that he will not be able to find a good one. But one thing is for sure and that is that if he never goes looking he absolutely will not.

[silktricks]

Epiphany is his choice of word. Yes, like many other MM I presume, he wants the choice to be made for him. And I am not going to do that for him. I am not going to let him go, because that would be making the choice for him.

:)and 'sides that you love him and don't want to give him up

 

I think you understand him pretty well by now, silk, but don't you see that if I let him go that allows him to be the good guy once again? He will not have ended it with me, and he will not have divorced his wife. He needs to be the bad guy for once. And the only way for me to help him be so is by remaining in the affair (not that that is why I am remaining LOL).

I think you are selling yourself short. If he truly does love you as both of you say, I believe that he will then be willing to be the "bad" guy and leave his wife. Right now, he's not being the bad guy. He's being the good guy on all fronts - by hiding - which is exactly what he's done all his life. In other words - you ain't helpin' (You're not hurting either, I don't think - but just don't get all dewey eyed that you're helping him learn to be the "bad guy" and stand up for what he wants )

 

You are right about prioritizing the counselor. I still have hopes that he will get around to it though. He brings it up once in a while. I think that he is scared that he will not be able to find a good one. But one thing is for sure and that is that if he never goes looking he absolutely will not.

He's probably more scared that he will - and that he'll actually have to make some changes - something he's been pretty loathe to do thus far. Edited June 11, 2010 by silktricks

[jennie-jennie]

:)and 'sides that you love him and don't want to give him up

LOL I am certainly not that altruistic that I wouldn't keep him if I didn't want him.

I think you are selling yourself short. If he truly does love you as both of you say, I believe that he will then be willing to be the "bad" guy and leave his wife. Right now, he's not being the bad guy. He's being the good guy on all fronts - by hiding - which is exactly what he's done all his life. In other words - you ain't helpin' (You're not hurting either, I don't think - but just don't get all dewey eyed that you're helping him learn to be the "bad guy" and stand up for what he wants )

I truly don't see him coming after me if I would end it with him. He would just feel the decision had been made for him. And anyway, I am awful at NC so I would just be back quicker than you could blink and that would just reinforce his certainty that I am staying with him.

 

I guess the only way out of this mess is him going to therapy then and learning to be the bad guy. Geez, I have been with bad guys all my life, finally I find a good one and look what happens!

He's probably more scared that he will - and that he'll actually have to make some changes - something he's been pretty loathe to do thus far.

LOL I never thought of that.

[silktricks]

I truly don't see him coming after me if I would end it with him. He would just feel the decision had been made for him.

Dang - not willing to fight for what he wants???

And anyway, I am awful at NC so I would just be back quicker than you could blink and that would just reinforce his certainty that I am staying with him.

Yeah, I can understand that. You can't do what you can't do until you're ready to do it. I remember talking to someone long ago and far away who said I should break up with this man I was madly in love with at the time. Because then he'd want to marry me... I told her that I couldn't play games - my head just doesn't work that way. So, I guess you're in the mess you're in - until you aren't OK to be there anymore - which is after all what you've been saying all along.

 

I guess the only way out of this mess is him going to therapy then and learning to be the bad guy. Geez, I have been with bad guys all my life, finally I find a good one and look what happens!