Is an extramarital relationship a real relationship?

[jennie-jennie]

Does he lie to his wife about the existence of your affair ?

 

If he does then your affair is based on lies.. he must continue to lie for the affair to continue.

 

I would say though that your affair isn't solely based on lies..

 

I think you would benefit from looking at things from a different perspective..

How about looking at your affair from his viewpoint instead of yours for example..

 

Or... he must continue to lie for the marriage to continue. It is their relationship which requires the lies, not ours.

[Silly_Girl]

In my situation I was not (to me knowledge) lied to, but the BS was. And huge great big awful whoppers, about 'golfing weekends' when he spent the weekend in my bed, or that he was doing his duty at work functions when he was actually with my son and I, eating dinner, doing the garden, and walking the dog.

 

So I am sure it's different in each set of circumstances, and certainly, in my eyes there is not a 'better' lie or betrayal, but I feel that the lies told to the spouse in my situation were much deeper and more hurtful than any lies in the affair that was (as mentioned) 'built on lies'.

[jj33]

The W of the person with whom I was involved knew about it and she knew it was me. So it was based on a certain amount of lies but the fact of the affair was not hidden. And I know that because when I met her after it was over she let me know. In fact oddly she thought it was still ongoing this year. I think he is a real piece of work, I think he needled her with my existence long after it was over. If I were married to him I would have slugged him. As time goes on I understand why she didnt care. One of these days shes going to run off with the pool boy, and he will be left to reap what he has sown... (having a bitter moment here...)

 

So was it based on lies not really no. It was based on an understanding of our particular roles in the situation. He broke ranks when he fell in love and then he lost the plot and acted out which was worse but no it wasnt based on lies to his W other than polite lies to tell the staff and boy were they whoppers.

 

Silly those lies are standard issue. Whats a guy supposed to say? Unless you are an afternoon quickie or a stop on the way home from the train there are big stories to concoct. It used to frighten me because how could you tell what was the truth... had things worked out differently I think trust would have been an issue. He was too good at telling tales. They rolled off his tongue like water off a ducks back.

Edited June 13, 2010 by jj33

[Silly_Girl]

Silly those lies are standard issue. Whats a guy supposed to say? Unless you are an afternoon quickie or a stop on the way home from the train there are big stories to concoct. It used to frighten me because how could you tell what was the truth... had things worked out differently I think trust would have been an issue. He was too good at telling tales. They rolled off his tongue like water off a ducks back.

 

Absolutely. Hated the lies. But where some claim the marriage is a REAL relationship and the affair isn't because it's based on lies, I suggest that of the two it's more likely the marriage that is based more (during the A) on lies than the A itself.

[White Flower]

Absolutely. Hated the lies. But where some claim the marriage is a REAL relationship and the affair isn't because it's based on lies, I suggest that of the two it's more likely the marriage that is based more (during the A) on lies than the A itself.

I happen to know that MM lied a whole LOT to his W over the years. My God if she knew what I know she would say that she absolutely did not know the man she M. Without question.

[seren]

I am of the opinion that there are many different kinds of relationships. The casual kind we have with acquaintances, the close kind we have with friends and family, and the closer ones we have with those we love and are loved by in return. I don't think of my marriage as a relationship, I think of the relationship as how H and I interact, love on a daily basis. The marriage is, IMO, a different thing altogether.

 

H and I have discussed his A until hell has frozen over, thawed and frozen again. He know that it would be so much easier for me to accept if he said that he and XOW had a loving relationship, he says he cannot say that, as it wasn't. XOW would certainly not agree with this (of course) and would say that it was a relationship (I agree BTW). H has said that in retrospect he wasn't in a relationship with either me or XOW at the time, but was detached from both, just escaping and being who he wanted to be with XOW and not knowing how to fix what he was causing with our marriage.

 

I don't think it is some big competition thing with BS and OW vying for 'who is the MM really having a R with', after all, BS knows nothing, as far as she is concerned she and H have, not just the primary relationship, but the only one.

What I do know is this, H would never, ever share me with another man. I would never, ever knowingly share H with another woman and that on D Day, when he had the leave or stay option, he stayed and worked hard to reconcile our marriage and repair our relationship.

 

There are some XOW on LS who's BF/H's are ex MM, I believe that only when both are free to have an open and honest relationship does the real relationship begin. I know that most, if not all OW would say not so, it is to be expected, and yes I can see that there has to be a relationship for two people to meet etc, but it is a very different sort of relationship from one where there is a commitment, from both sides, freely given and not hidden and with no having to wait for one to leave another before this can happen.

[Ann_Igma]

It's my opinion that an extramarital relationship is as real as any other relationship out there. I think that's just too black and white to deny.

 

I think that it is different from a marriage/civil partnership/dating/etc in that it *usually* hasn't got the same legitimacy/propriety. In an affair, you're much less likely to be attending family functions with the WS, or functions with his/her close friends as there is usually that element of keeping everything hidden from those who know the WS in their "other life".

 

This doesn't at all mean that the EMR can't evolve and become more 'legitimate' (I just can't think of a better word, but really don't like the way that sounds either!). In the couple months I have been reading LS, I have seen plenty of posts by Owoman and GEL who are both examples of an EMR evolving beyond those initial boundaries.

 

In the EMR phase though, whilst I recognize it is a relationship, I'm just of the opinion that it's usually somewhat incomplete.

 

But of course, the 'legitimate' R which is being carried on by the WS during the EMR is also incomplete..

[jthorne]

Or... he must continue to lie for the marriage to continue. It is their relationship which requires the lies, not ours.

And the marriage must certainly mean something to him. Otherwise, why bother with the lies to protect it?

[califnan]

Well...I have to say that theOW/OM doesn't break up the marriage...the WS does. The WS takes the decision to get the ball rolling and open up the marriage. Everyone keeps saying actions speak louder than words...sometimes when someone strays and keeps going that's a very loud action-one taken by the WS.

 

-----------------------

 

Miz,

 

I think it's all three who must share the responsibility in the sin.. In my experience, the OW was the deliverate participater ..

[seren]

Or... he must continue to lie for the marriage to continue. It is their relationship which requires the lies, not ours.

 

Dammed right there Jennie, I sure as hell wouldn't have knowingly shared my H with anyone. Of course he lied, the alternative would have been to say, hey Seren, I am seeing someone else, I am staying until you decide to kick me out or until whatever. My answer would have been, the same as it was on D Day, if you want her, go to it, but I do not share my H with anyone. So, he ends it because he wanted our marriage to continue. hardly rocket science.

He had to lie to XOW, what's he going to say, we sat and watched a film last night, her head resting on my lap, sharing a bottle of wine, laughing at shared jokes and then went to bed and snuggled before being intimate. Hmm no don't think so.

[califnan]

sorry, edit deliberate..

[jj33]

Actually I think the "lies" issue is just another red herring, just another way of saying its not a real relationship.

 

Lets face it, most everyone who embarks on an affair lies to some extent or another. if not to the spouse or the AP then perhaps to colleagues or friends who may not need to know about their open marriage arrangements.

 

So its a given that there will be some lies.

 

That being said, if they do not have an open marriage, or some other arrangement with the spouse, then by definition they are lying to the spouse. Whether they lie to the AP? Lets assume for sake of argument that they do to some extent or another.

 

The fact is the A is not less of a relationship because its not known to the BS. The lies are unquestionably hurtful to 99% of the WS's spouses, but that doesnt mean that the A is less of a relatoinship.

 

Ill say it again, noone puts their marriage in jeopardy for someone they dont care about.

 

Indeed my xMM had so much less on the line with me. He wasnt putting anything in jeopardy. He hardly needed to lie. I could have been 400 different women he spent one night with. There was no risk to his marriage.

 

Someone who has to live a hidden double life to keep things from their spouse is putting a lot of effort into being with the AP.

 

It might not be a conventional relatoinship but it is a relationship in which the WS has invested energy and taken significant risks.

 

So lets not get caught up in the red herring of its not pure and true and out in the open. No its not pure its not sanctified by the Church but that doesnt mean its not real.

[califnan]

To more fully answer JJ's orig post..

 

The intimacy portion of the affair, makes the relationship strong - if not more real..

 

When a man has intimacy outside the marriage, he deserves for her to show up at the funeral..

[jthorne]

Actually I think the "lies" issue is just another red herring, just another way of saying its not a real relationship.

 

Lets face it, most everyone who embarks on an affair lies to some extent or another. if not to the spouse or the AP then perhaps to colleagues or friends who may not need to know about their open marriage arrangements.

 

So its a given that there will be some lies.

 

That being said, if they do not have an open marriage, or some other arrangement with the spouse, then by definition they are lying to the spouse. Whether they lie to the AP? Lets assume for sake of argument that they do to some extent or another.

 

The fact is the A is not less of a relationship because its not known to the BS. The lies are unquestionably hurtful to 99% of the WS's spouses, but that doesnt mean that the A is less of a relatoinship.

 

Ill say it again, noone puts their marriage in jeopardy for someone they dont care about.

 

Indeed my xMM had so much less on the line with me. He wasnt putting anything in jeopardy. He hardly needed to lie. I could have been 400 different women he spent one night with. There was no risk to his marriage.

 

Someone who has to live a hidden double life to keep things from their spouse is putting a lot of effort into being with the AP.

 

It might not be a conventional relatoinship but it is a relationship in which the WS has invested energy and taken significant risks.

 

So lets not get caught up in the red herring of its not pure and true and out in the open. No its not pure its not sanctified by the Church but that doesnt mean its not real.

I get where you are coming from, but I have trouble understanding when someone implies that since they are not being lied to (and how can they know for sure), that the BS is the one being lied to, that their affair relationship is somehow better or more important than the marriage. After all, if the marriage wasn't that important, why does the MM stay?

I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I get really tired of the "My A is better than your A", or "My MM is better than your MM/SG/H". Regardless of the emotions involved, an affair is an affair. It's an illicit relationship, and no ones illicit relationship can be better than another. To me, it's like trying to argue about which drug is better to get addicted to- heroin or meth.

Edited June 13, 2010 by jthorne

[jj33]

I agree with you JThorne about the competition.

 

This my A is better than your A or I am lied to less than you are is really pathetic.

 

I think some As are different than others but the competition that occurs sometimes among posters is quite sad really. People have all sorts of reasons for having As, for staying and for leaving.

 

The thing is these situations are emotionally charged and everyone needs to believe whatever it is that they believe to keep their world turning more smoothly.

 

Its like all those threads about dont say x or dont call us that its just (IMHO) people being twitchy because posts have touched their nerves.

 

And as an aside I wasnt doing that with my sitch - in fact I could have been 400 hookers for all the W cared so there was LESS investment and risk not saying it means he loved me more.

Edited June 13, 2010 by jj33

[jj33]

And actually Califnan much as I like and respect you I would disagree on the funeral. The funeral is for the living.

 

If it is hosted by the family who would NOT appreciate the APs presence then the AP has to find their own way to grieve. To me it is totally inapppropriate to barge into the funeral hosted by the WSs family.

 

But that doesnt make the relationship less real. It just means it existed in parallel to the WSs family relationships.

[jthorne]

And actually Califnan much as I like and respect you I would disagree on the funeral. The funeral is for the living.

 

If it is hosted by the family who would NOT appreciate the APs presence then the AP has to find their own way to grieve. To me it is totally inapppropriate to barge into the funeral hosted by the WSs family.

 

But that doesnt make the relationship less real. It just means it existed in parallel to the WSs family relationships.

I think I was sort of involved in the funeral question. It started before jennie's thread. I am going to start a new thread on this if no one minds.

[NoIDidn't]

I've had enough affair-type Rs to say that they certainly are real to at least one side of the deal (usually to me), as it became pretty obvious that I didn't mean as much to the guy as he said I did when the light of day hit us/me.

 

Just because one feels used in the end doesn't make the R not real, just makes it unhealthy. Lots of dysfunctional unhealthy Rs out there, not just As.

 

There are several real Rs where no finances are shared, so I don't think its fair to say that of As as plenty of non-cheating, but not-married GF/BFs don't share finances. APs also make plans together, plans that no one knows about but them - or they tell about the plans but not the true nature of them (lie) to others - so that isn't fair to say either.

 

I think the hang up on this forum is the unsaid one because of the nature of this forum. This forum is about people intruding on the Ms, the real Rs, of others. So much comparison is made about As vs Ms and other valid and legitimate Rs are ignored.

[fooled once]

Sure, it's a relationship. As I said in the other thread, I have a "relationship" with this keyboard I'm typing on.

I believe I also explained in the other thread what I meant by "real" relationship, and why I don't feel an A is one. Perhaps comperable might have been a better word.

 

An affair is predominately a HIDDEN dating relationship, except a single gal is typically included in many things an OW is not, such as family gatherings and business functions. A single gal can be at her sweetheart's bedside if he's in the hospital, an OW may never even know he was IN the hospital. A single gal doesn't have to hide anything. An OW has to hide everything.

 

That's no "real" relationship to me.

 

Totally agree jt!

 

Are the feelings of interdependence and having one's needs met existing in an affair?

 

I would say yes.

 

Are you an open and integral part of someone's life, seeing them interact with all of their friends, family, children and co-workers?

 

I would say no.

 

Are they exclusive with you?

 

I would say no if they have a spouse, or a SO.

 

So, define real: Real feelings, but not feelings than can be openly demonstrated in the reality of one or both partner's lives.

 

Tough question.

 

Good response!

 

It's a relationship is that a relationship is defined as any ongoing interaction between two people.

 

I have a relationship with my mechanic, my students, my grandmother, my family, my boyfriend, my pets...

 

Relationships come in many forms.

 

Now, an affair is a relationship by a book definition, but in reality, it's not a legitimate romantic relationship. Any "relationship" that has to be hidden then by default, lessens it's validity.

 

I think affairs are merely fantasy. Both parties like to say how intense and real the A is, yet, great lengths are taken by the MP to HIDE the relationship. Anything you're proud of wouldn't be treated like this...

 

I agree.

 

Those that are in affairs and want to make themselves feel better can glorify their affair all they want by saying it's a relationship. Feel free to delude yourself. An affair is an affair is an affair. It's a secret illicit relationship. If calling it a relationship helps you forget the secret illicit part, good for you. It's just more of the denial required to carry on an affair in the first place.

 

EXACTLY!!!

 

From what I've read on here and other places, it all a matter of opinion. Most OW's will say it's a real relationship, most BS's will say no way and as for WS's it's a toss up. Some say it is or was and other say it isn't or wasen't. One OW may say it is but her own MM will say it's not. A BS's may say it isn't and the WS will say it was. Ultimately, imho it comes down to what the WS thinks and what that persons actions show. You can think it's a relationship all day long but if the person you are with disagrees then it's not a relationship. The person you are with might agree that it's a relationship but if you are kept hidden then actions speak alot. There's alot of variables in something like this.

 

In MY view - many OW want and need for it to be a 'real relationship' and will defend their view at all costs. They have to believe it. They have to believe what they have is different, is 'better'. They have to tear down marriage. They have to believe they are more loved than the spouse. To believe otherwise will mean that they aren't that important, that there are lies being told to them, that the wife holds more of his heart than she does, etc.

 

this question is subjective. Every single person is allowed to feel THEIR way about a relationship. I have a relationship with the guy who brings water to our office, with the lady across the hall, with the guy who smokes outside when I do. That doesn't mean I am the most important person in their life, that i am loved the best, etc.

 

I see a lot of justifying on this thread -- which is fine. We each live our own lives and have our own beliefs.

 

We can cite statistics all day ... I personally don't know that many people who have had affairs where the AP became the wife. I know of 2 actually - that's it.

 

The majority of my friends (and all of my family) are in monogamous relationships. There isn't cheating. I don't believe it is that common and I surely don't believe that affairs turn into true, 1-1 relationships that break up families.

 

If the man so loved the OW, he would divorce his wife to be with her.

[jwi71]

There are a lot of intimate relationships between two single people which do not fit this bill. If I interpret this correctly, only marriages and common-law marriages would.

 

Good catch, I was def. M centric there.

But I am a M centric kinda guy.

And to me, any R whose goal is NOT M is just not what I'm looking for.

 

Because, to me, an A is NOT an open, honest R with BOTH persons actively working towards being together (and in a verifiable manner)...then its not real.

[NoIDidn't]

Good catch, I was def. M centric there.

But I am a M centric kinda guy.

And to me, any R whose goal is NOT M is just not what I'm looking for.

 

Because, to me, an A is NOT an open, honest R with BOTH persons actively working towards being together (and in a verifiable manner)...then its not real.

 

I agree with this too.

 

The "not real" Rs that I was in, were real to me because I thought they were going towards a more permanent partnership. I often didn't know I was the OW until I paid attention to the patterns.

 

I want to be the only, and I can't consider it real if I'm not the only. And this fits the bill for all other intimate R (Rs where the people in them have sex with each other) that aren't marriages, IMO, as well.

[sweetky]

In MY view - many OW want and need for it to be a 'real relationship' and will defend their view at all costs. They have to believe it. They have to believe what they have is different, is 'better'. They have to tear down marriage. They have to believe they are more loved than the spouse. To believe otherwise will mean that they aren't that important, that there are lies being told to them, that the wife holds more of his heart than she does, etc.

 

this question is subjective. Every single person is allowed to feel THEIR way about a relationship. I have a relationship with the guy who brings water to our office, with the lady across the hall, with the guy who smokes outside when I do. That doesn't mean I am the most important person in their life, that i am loved the best, etc.

 

I see a lot of justifying on this thread -- which is fine. We each live our own lives and have our own beliefs.

 

We can cite statistics all day ... I personally don't know that many people who have had affairs where the AP became the wife. I know of 2 actually - that's it.

 

The majority of my friends (and all of my family) are in monogamous relationships. There isn't cheating. I don't believe it is that common and I surely don't believe that affairs turn into true, 1-1 relationships that break up families.

 

If the man so loved the OW, he would divorce his wife to be with her.

 

 

 

Way back when I was an OW, I never thought it was anything more than an affair. That's all. His relationship was with his wife. Didn't matter that he lied to her , didn't matter what we felt about each other.. she was his wife and therefore his relationship. We had an affair. Big difference.

 

You can paint a turd gold but it's still a turd.

[NoIDidn't]

You can paint a turd gold but it's still a turd.

 

Oh my. <said with hand across chest>

 

LOL

[fooled once]

Way back when I was an OW, I never thought it was anything more than an affair. That's all. His relationship was with his wife. Didn't matter that he lied to her , didn't matter what we felt about each other.. she was his wife and therefore his relationship. We had an affair. Big difference.

 

You can paint a turd gold but it's still a turd.

 

I completely agree sweety!

[jennie-jennie]

I happen to know that MM lied a whole LOT to his W over the years. My God if she knew what I know she would say that she absolutely did not know the man she M. Without question.

 

That goes for my MM and his BS as well.