Is an extramarital relationship a real relationship?

[califnan]

And actually Califnan much as I like and respect you I would disagree on the funeral. The funeral is for the living.

 

If it is hosted by the family who would NOT appreciate the APs presence then the AP has to find their own way to grieve. To me it is totally inapppropriate to barge into the funeral hosted by the WSs family.

 

But that doesnt make the relationship less real. It just means it existed in parallel to the WSs family relationships.

 

--------------------

 

Hi JJ,

 

I posted my further reasoning on the other thread regarding the funeral attendance..

 

I don't think the OW would make herself prominant at the funeral .. I am guessing she would sit/stand in the background..

 

Remember all of the disrespectfulness was already done before he died..

[Woman In Blue]

Or... he must continue to lie for the marriage to continue. It is their relationship which requires the lies, not ours.

LOL..I occasionally read another OW board, and the women actively engaged in their affairs sound pretty much like you. Absolutely unable to believe that just maybe, things aren't REALLY as they appear.

 

There's also an Endings board on that site, and boy oh boy, those women have all been given a dose of reality. Either they found out their married men had been lying about their 'bad' marriages, or they found out he also had an OOW, or they discovered he really wasn't leaving at all although he'd claimed a divorce was in sight, etc. etc. etc.

 

At one time, these women on Endings had posted the same things you're posting now. Had anyone told them they'd be on Endings 6 weeks or 6 months or 6 years later, they wouldn't have believed it. But there they are, crying "foul" and being shocked that they'd been so badly deceived by someone they NEVER thought would deceive them.

 

It's a fall far from grace when reality sets in.

 

So, is an affair a "real" relationship? Maybe in the minds of the two engaging in it.

[jennie-jennie]

LOL..I occasionally read another OW board, and the women actively engaged in their affairs sound pretty much like you. Absolutely unable to believe that just maybe, things aren't REALLY as they appear.

 

There's also an Endings board on that site, and boy oh boy, those women have all been given a dose of reality. Either they found out their married men had been lying about their 'bad' marriages, or they found out he also had an OOW, or they discovered he really wasn't leaving at all although he'd claimed a divorce was in sight, etc. etc. etc.

My MM has never claimed he has a bad marriage.

My MM does not have an OOW.

My MM has never claimed a divorce is in sight.

 

So those endings will not be happening to me.

At one time, these women on Endings had posted the same things you're posting now. Had anyone told them they'd be on Endings 6 weeks or 6 months or 6 years later, they wouldn't have believed it. But there they are, crying "foul" and being shocked that they'd been so badly deceived by someone they NEVER thought would deceive them.

 

It's a fall far from grace when reality sets in.

 

So, is an affair a "real" relationship? Maybe in the minds of the two engaging in it.

Sure. On Dday our relationship might very well come to an end. I am aware of that.

[silktricks]

I haven't read the thread, yet, but just to give my opinion in answer to the original question...

 

I believe it depends upon the nature of the affair. If it is a sex only relationship on the part of both people, I would tend to not characterize it as a "real" relationship, with the idea that a "real" relationship is one that includes love. Of course it is a relationship, but you can have a "relationship" with a person you ride the elevator to work with, that isn't what is being discussed, though, I don't think.

 

Also, it could be a "real" relationship to one of the affair partners, but not the other. I would, in that case, tend to say it is not a "real" relationship, either, as one of the partners is not truly invested in it - and the other is probably being tricked. That isn't "real" either in what I have assumed to be the meaning of this question.

 

However, some affairs don't fit either of the above descriptions. In those cases, IMO the affair is a "real" relationship - and possibly more "real" than the married relationship.

 

JMO.

[jennie-jennie]

Something tells me that your viewpoint is only based on what you see and feel in the relationship and not what he sees and feels.

 

Of course it looks great to you.. I think that it obviously takes a second chair to his marriage though.. since he is still married and only with you a small portion of the time.

What do you think he would post to those very same questions ?.. do you think he would say that his affair is based on love and not lies ?

 

In order for your affair to sustain itself he must be lying to keep it going.. so it is based on lies.

 

Yep, my MM agreed with me, the affair is based on love and the marriage on a lie (since the affair started).

[JustJoe]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could find an honest man to have a relationship with? I know that"love goes where it's sent", but Jen, IMO, you definitely need a BF up-grade.

[Owl]

What's a "real" relationship?

 

What's NOT a "real" relationship?

 

I don't believe there is such a thing as either.

 

Is an affair a "relationship"? Yes.

 

But by most definitions, I have a "relationship" with the guy who's a night manager at the Wal-mart down the street.

 

What's the point of trying to differentiate between a "real" relationship and one that's "not real"? We all know that this is a matter of opinion, not definition. And we all know that there are two camps here....were we hoping that this thread was going to somehow 'prove' one side or the other to be right, or change their opinions?

 

What were we really hoping to learn in this thread?

[Owl]

Yep, my MM agreed with me, the affair is based on love and the marriage on a lie (since the affair started).

 

Of course he's going to tell you that the relationship with you is an "honest" one....he knows full well you'd bail on him if he told you he was lying.

 

His marriage right now IS based on the lie created by the affair...for the same reasons.

 

She too has to believe that he's being honest in order to stay in a relationship with him.

 

That doesn't make your affair somehow "more" than the marriage, which is what is implied here. It just means that he's got to convince you BOTH that he's being honest to you in order to keep you BOTH.

 

You're believing what you're being told by him...just like she is.

[JustJoe]

Nada, Hoot. This thread is Jen trying to justify her affair, and, as usual, it has split along the predictable lines. Nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion.

[White Flower]

Why is it that BS or MP can read body language but OP can't? Why is it, when we have true intimacy, we can tell when somebody is lying to us?

 

MM and I didn't have true intimacy in the beginning and even then I could tell when he was lying which put me on a journey to study facial expressions and treid and true ways of recognizing a lie when you see it. I'd already learned a few facts due to my lying exH but needed more obviously.

 

After calling MM out and repairing our R, there has been no lying and very little hedging since then. An intimacy developed. If you believe a man can be intimate with his W, surely he can be intimate with his lover. Not saying all MM have intimacy with their OW, but it does happen.

 

Don't fall into the trap of believing all OP are out of the loop and hopelessy ignorant! I could show you filing cabinets full of evidence showing the opposite!

[Owl]

I think that anyone who is IN a relationship will believe that it is "real". Otherwise, they wouldn't stay.

 

They may later change their minds if hindsight makes them feel otherwise...or not, if it shows their feelings were validated.

 

I think that anyone looking at a relationship from the outside is going to have their own OPINION on the "reality" or not of the relationship.

 

I don't believe that my wife's relationship with OM was "real" for a large number of reasons. My wife while in the relationship felt strongly that it was. Since that time her view has changed slightly, but I know that she recognizes that her FEELING were real, but her perception of the situation may have been greatly distorted by those feelings at the time. But at the end of the day, we only have our OPINIONS on the subject.

[jennie-jennie]

Nada, Hoot. This thread is Jen trying to justify her affair, and, as usual, it has split along the predictable lines. Nobody is going to change anybody else's opinion.

 

This comment I don't like. I don't need to justify my relationship to anybody. I reacted in another thread to posters claiming that affairs were not relationships, so I wanted to bring this up to discussion. I thought it was an interesting topic to discuss since obviously there were varied opinions.

 

This forum is for "support and discussion for those who find themselves involved with a committed partner", so that is exactly what my intention was.

 

Joe, I have done illegal things in my days. I have no need to justify something that is not even illegal. If I told you all I had done in my days, you would understand that an affair is baby stuff to me.

[jennie-jennie]

Wouldn't it be nice if you could find an honest man to have a relationship with? I know that"love goes where it's sent", but Jen, IMO, you definitely need a BF up-grade.

 

I like this post, Joe. It is okay for you to be a little tough with me just because it is you.

[torranceshipman]

"An intimate relationship is a particularly close interpersonal relationship. It can be defined by these characteristics: enduring behavioral interdependence, repeated interactions, emotional attachment, and need fulfillment." (Wikipedia)

 

According to the above an extramarital relationship is not only a relationship but an intimate relationship. It fulfills the requirements of:

 

- being a particularly close interpersonal relationship

- enduring behavioral interdependence

- repeated interactions

- emotional attachment

- need fulfillment

 

I have come to understand that many LS posters do not consider an extramarital relationship to qualify as a "real" relationship. This topic deserves its own thread in my opinion.

 

Sounds like a R to me. A R can be really miserable, bad and full of crapola, or bright, happy, and wonderful, so just defining something as a R doesn't really suggest any value. But I would say that an MM and an OW are in a R.

[MizFit]

Sounds like a R to me. A R can be really miserable, bad and full of crapola, or bright, happy, and wonderful, so just defining something as a R doesn't really suggest any value. But I would say that an MM and an OW are in a R.

 

Between this post and the posts saying it's a matter of opinion...I agree.

 

The camp that think As aren't 'real' relationships have their reasons, which have been stated numerous times above.

 

How much value is in a M where the WS is lying and living a double life...where the BS is walking around oblivious to what the WS is doing? To me there is less value in that R than there is in an A where there's intimacy and closenes and sometimes contrary to popular belief-honesty.

 

I can't put any value on an R of a BS and WS who are reconciling where the BS is having to act and react more like a prison warden than a spouse...I couldn't do it. To me that would have zero value as a R...however I have tremendous respect and admiration who are able to see the value in what they are saving and the courage it takes to do it. My point being...something that is best walked away from in my opinion is a whole future for someone else. My A with my MM is, and always will be, more of an R than my M was because the man I trusted crushed me and it made a mockery of the M, thereby making it less than any R I've ever had.

 

We all have different vantage points and we never will agree and that's just fine...that's life.

[Owl]

Nm...deleted to avoid any further infractions today

Edited June 14, 2010 by Owl

[Silly_Girl]

Just wondering whether the 'No' camp consider the A any more real/valuable if the affair parties have a child together. It happens. Just curious.

[MizFit]

This is one of those things that you'll just never get the opposite sides to agree on.

 

I can't place any value on a relationship that's created at the deliberate expense and emotional devestation and deception of someone else. That was done while still in a relationship that was unilaterally violated with no consideration or care to the other party.

 

We'll have to agree to disagree.

 

 

 

I would agree with you if the relationship was doomed to STAY like that.

 

And you'd be totally right if you were dealing with people who were in their "normal" state of minds.

 

But you're not.

 

You're dealing with TWO emotionally traumatized and devestated people at that point.

 

The BS has been emotionally betrayed and crushed by the person that they trusted most. They KNOW that they can't trust their partner at this part. They're fighting to save their marriage, even knowing that the person that they're trying to save the relationship with has done this to them.

 

The WS has it nearly as bad. Often (I know this was true in my wife's case) they're suffering MASSIVE withdrawl at the end of the affair. Call it addiction or not, but I'll tell you that the symptoms and actions are EXACTLY like like dealing with addict who has to deal with their addiction.

 

You don't trust an addict to end the addiction on their own. PERIOD. You can trust them to stay clean once they get there (to a degree), but you never just give them no accountability or take their word that they're staying clean without verifying it.

 

Which is where the whole "warden" thing comes in.

 

But that should end once the withdrawl is completed and they've demonstrated again for a period of time that they ARE trustworthy.

 

If you don't agree with the addiction concept...we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

I don't agree with an addiction concept, but that is my personal opinion. I've had relatives and other loved ones who have gone thru rehab for alcohol and drugs etc...I don't see that they are the same. I think that love is love is love. I think it doesn't matter if you're married, single or what...it's a connection and it hurts to end. You fight change and if you're forced to end it you'll fight that. Having said that I agree they need to have boundaries and have them enforced if both parties agree to move forward.

 

I think you've mistaken my comments about reconciling Ms. I am saying I couldn't have done it...I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. I am saying that to me it would have zero value because I could not bring myself to trust someone who did that to me. I know my exH has been happily married to his OW for about 15 years and hasn't cheated...it could very well be he wouldn't have cheated on me if I'd thought I could have done it-it's not in me. As i said, I can't do it, but that doesn't keep me from applauding and respecting those that have and are.

 

 

 

Your relationship with MM may be a better relationship than that with your H...if your H was an abusive/addictive/dysfunctional person who "crushed you".

He cheated on me. Nothing else mattered. I know I played my part in leaving the M vulnerable, but he cheated on me and that is the only thing that matters...he cheated. He crushed me.

 

That wouldn't suprise me at all. You're comparing one relationship that hasn't had a chance to 'fail' yet with one that has already shown you that it's broken and failed.

If you've read any of my posts MM has never lied to me about his situation. It is what it is till I either walk away, he walks away, or we have another Dday and he finally takes it seriously. So...in the vein of honesty and where I stand I would much preferred if my H was as honest with my future as MM is. You are right...it hasn't ended...I can only go by what is there now.

 

Your MM isn't your H...so any problems you MIGHT encounter should hopefully be much different (and potentially much less if your H was any of the things I mentioned above). No reason why you wouldn't have a better relationship in that circumstance.

 

Answers in bold...

 

Please OWL the 1 thing I want to drive home is that I was not having a dig at BS and WS who reconcile...I'm too much of a coward to try. I know I couldn't do it.

[JustJoe]

I like this post, Joe. It is okay for you to be a little tough with me just because it is you.

It gives me no pleasure, Jen. I like you a whole lot, and have shared some things with you that I haven't told other people in RL. I can't help that I don't think that your MM is doing right by you. Because, to my mind, you deserve so much more!!!

[silktricks]

I can't put any value on an R of a BS and WS who are reconciling where the BS is having to act and react more like a prison warden than a spouse...I couldn't do it. To me that would have zero value as a R...however I have tremendous respect and admiration who are able to see the value in what they are saving and the courage it takes to do it.

 

If a BS and WS choose to reconcile - truly reconcile - then believe me, your description is completely and irrevocably wrong. The situation as you described would not be a "real relationship", but a truly reconciled marriage is. That is where there is real value and courage - not in "acting like a prison warden"... and I've got to say, that I personally find the comparison both disgusting and rude .

[jennie-jennie]

Just wondering whether the 'No' camp consider the A any more real/valuable if the affair parties have a child together. It happens. Just curious.

 

Nah, I would consider that a fake child. :lmao:

[Snowflower]

 

I can't put any value on an R of a BS and WS who are reconciling where the BS is having to act and react more like a prison warden than a spouse...I couldn't do it. To me that would have zero value as a R...however I have tremendous respect and admiration who are able to see the value in what they are saving and the courage it takes to do it.

 

Please know that not all reconciling relationships between a BS and WS are like you describe here, at least not in a permanent sense.

 

The prison warden scenario is not likely to create a true, lasting reconciliation, IMO. The power dynamics of the relationship would be too messed up.

 

Even as a fBS, I do agree that most A are real relationships...and it seems like most posters here agree that an A is a real relationship, just one that is steeped in deceit, in some cases.

[Silly_Girl]

Nah, I would consider that a fake child. :lmao:

 

Oh dear...

[jennie-jennie]

It gives me no pleasure, Jen. I like you a whole lot, and have shared some things with you that I haven't told other people in RL. I can't help that I don't think that your MM is doing right by you. Because, to my mind, you deserve so much more!!!

 

I am honored, Joe, and I like you very much too! I know you want only the best for me. You are so sweet.

[JustJoe]

I've been called many things, in this life, but sweet isn't usually one of them>