I never in a million years thought I'd be starting a thread like this.

[Star Gazer]

She owned up to the reasons he gave her, but for all we know she's barking up the wrong tree and those weren't the reasons he actually ended things. It could be his own issues that have nothing to do with her.

 

I don't think there was anything outlandish or malicious about LB pointing this out.

 

I'm begging you to just stay away from this thread. You're derailing the conversation.

 

Please. Just stay away.

[Leia]

She owned up to the reasons he gave her, but for all we know she's barking up the wrong tree and those weren't the reasons he actually ended things. It could be his own issues that have nothing to do with her.

 

I don't think there was anything outlandish or malicious about LB pointing this out.

 

Maybe but SG is telling us what she thinks the reasons are. Take it as it is. No need to tear apart everything else knowing that person is going through a break up.

[Star Gazer]

I am not a recovering alcoholic. And I have only been working with alcoholics for the past 6 weeks. Prior to that I was working stricly with opiate addicts for a year 1/2. I think I'm pretty good at my job and I DO understand everything that you have said.

 

I was living with my alcoholic boyfriend, living and breathing this relationship and his drinking, for longer than you've been treating all addicts, LB.

 

You're not the expert, so please don't purport yourself to be. Neither am I.

[2sunny]

That really has struck a cord with me, Sunny.

 

i thought it might help SG.

 

if you are not an alcoholic - it's really hard to understand why we do/did what we do/did.

 

we do it because we HAVE to - it's not our first choice - it's our only choice. choosing the alcohol when we absolutely know we shouldn't. not caring if it does.

 

the mentally debilitating side of the disease really does take most to a place of wondering where their sanity disappeared to... and always knowing the reality is = it disappeared in the bottle.

 

THIS is the side that normy's would NEVER understand. this is why it's so hard for YOU SG - and not at all hard for him. it makes a person numb and unfeeling - that is the point of drinking for the alcoholic.

 

i hope that helps. i go to al-anon too - to keep a healthy balance for MYSELF - as i help a lot of other alcoholics wanting to get sober. i go because it's easy for me to want it for them more than they do... in a weak moment i'm willing to give more effort than are willing t give. this isn't healthy. i now let them do what they are going to do - and i will do anything for them as long as they are willing and honest and stay in being active in THEIR recovery. first i get myself in a very good place - then i am capable of helping others. al-anon helps me keep that healthy balance that is key.

[2sunny]

have you two spent days around the clock together? could you tell if he drank early or even early in the daytime or morning when you were there with him?

 

did he ever have the capability of having one drink and stopping at one?

[2sunny]

I undestand the "powerless over alcohol" philosophy. I DO try to teach my clients though to gain power back. To utilize coping skills or something else. Because the bottom line is you don't HAVE to drink. You FEEL you have to, that there is no other choice. But there is always a choice. ALWAYS.

 

And no, I'm not an alcoholic but I am recovering from an addiction..so I understand all about feeling powerless.

 

see we differ LB. i don't try to gain MY power back. it belongs to my HIGHER POWER. i need to be willing to understand that I'M NOT in charge - my HP is! i willingly understand that the power belongs to my HP. proper use of will - yes... gaining ACCESS to my power source - yes. gaining my power - no... gaining access to my higher power - yes. the ego is ultimately being removed in the process of the step work.

 

when i'm using MY power = i drink. i have evidence that i shouldn't drink again... and yes, i always have a choice. today i choose not to drink because i feel connect to my higher power.

 

this is where i'm unsure of whether you understand the concept of the steps. have you personally done the step work involved to become recovered?

[2sunny]

On the weekends, we spent 24/7 together. We've also been on 2 week-long vacations. He drinks anytime, really. There's always an excuse to drink. Weekend breakfast? Mimosas! Gardening at noon? Beers! Skiing? Lunch cocktails! Hiking? Lunch beers! Lounging by the pool? "Road sodies!"

 

 

 

I don't know if he had the capability, but he never did. Always had more than one.

 

i had a feeling you would say that...

[Leia]

I hope you don't mind using your thread to ask this question since it's on the subject of alcoholism right now:

 

How does one know if he or she is involved with an alcoholic? Do you see the signs straight away or only after a few months into the relationship?

[2sunny]

I undestand the "powerless over alcohol" philosophy. I DO try to teach my clients though to gain power back. To utilize coping skills or something else. Because the bottom line is you don't HAVE to drink. You FEEL you have to, that there is no other choice. But there is always a choice. ALWAYS.

 

And no, I'm not an alcoholic but I am recovering from an addiction..so I understand all about feeling powerless.

 

the mindset is totally different than what you are describing - for me.

 

the idea is to surrender... to cease fighting. so - in completely surrendering - it's more of an admission that i completely understand when i'm in charge - everything goes badly. i then become willing to let a different power source completely guide me - in order to understand that my will is insignificant - as it usually messes everything up.

[jenifer1972]

I think you have gained a lot of insight into why this relationship collapsed, in the last few days. In your first post, his drinking was only mentioned in one line, and now it is coming to you how deeply it was part of the relationship. I know you loved him deeply, but does a part of you feel a sense of relief now, that you didn't go further down the road and marry this guy?

[2sunny]

I hope you don't mind using your thread to ask this question since it's on the subject of alcoholism right now:

 

How does one know if he or she is involved with an alcoholic? Do you see the signs straight away or only after a few months into the relationship?

 

dunno. only the alcoholic is capable of admitting for him/herself. it's usually tough to admit. once we admit - it usually means then we need to do something about it - which is exactly what the active drinker DOESN'T want to have to do. to keep drinking is the goal.

 

i know many who know an alcoholic say that things simply don't add up - things don't make sense. often chaos is created by the alkie on purpose to distract others from noticing what the real problem is. the goal is to distract so no one finds out the real truth. thus - the first step is to admit... to yourself and to others in a meeting is HUGE for a new recovering alcoholic. it's very powerful to admit and to no longer need to keep up with all the cover up and lies that need to keep working for us if we intend to continue the active drinking.

[2sunny]

SG - if he didn't have a drink until late in the day - did he ever have the shakes (especially in his hands)?

 

did you ever search or see if he hid bottles anywhere strange - like the bathroom or a closet?

[norajane]

I dunno, Star. I kind of see LB's point...is going to Al-Anon something that keeps you dwelling on this guy and this break-up? You aren't an alcoholic, and yes you had to deal with it, so if Al-Anon helps you process your experience, great.

 

But, maybe moving on doesn't need to include a whole lot of immersing yourself in HIS problem. It's not YOUR problem. Doesn't all this trying so hard to understand what his problem is and the extent of his problem and blahdy-blah, just focusing your thoughts on him, him, him? Again?

 

To the extent it helps you, then ok. But if you find yourself thinking more about helping him than helping yourself, you need to walk away and forget it.

[2sunny]

the process of al-anon is to gain clarity and a sense of balance for YOU.

 

this is never possible when the alcoholic is purposely trying to make it so that things don't make sense to you. a state of confusion for the non drinker is the norm.

 

to learn what this looks like for you - helps you take a healthy ideal of what you will and won't choose for any relationship... men or women in your life. skills to help you when dealing with any situation in life.

[Ariadne]

SG,

 

You said you were snappy when you were loaded with work etc.

 

I think I remember you saying that he didn't have a job. Or at least that he didn't have to go to work.

 

Do you think you resented that he stayed home while you had to go to work?

[Ariadne]

Uh, no... never said that. He was and is very much employed. He just doesn't have work stress. He's able to "leave work at work."

 

Oh, sorry about that. I guess I got confused with someone that had "businesses" or something like that and no regular office hours.

[SadandConfusedWA]

I think that the hardest thing to face when a partner leaves is that they simply didn't love you enough, fell out of love with you or didn't think that you are ultimately the partner that they want to spend the rest of their life with.

 

It is easier to blame yourself (than at least you have some sense of control, "if only I did X differently"....), it's easier to blame alcohol ("doesn't meant that he didn't love me, he was an alcoholic and thus can't love anyone").

 

I don't know the exact details of your relationship Star, but generally partners of addicts are the ones to leave the R (it is very rare and unusual for it to be the other way around).

 

I am now going to stay away from this thread before I go any further as I sense Star will not like what I have to say. She is hurt enough as it is so I will respectfully wish her good luck and bow out.

[2sunny]

 

 

Using Al-Anon for the purpose of closure and to deal with the breakup if a good idea.

 

LB - you are way off base. THAT is NOT the purpose of al-anon!

 

do YOU understand the step work? have YOU personally done the steps 1-12? do you sponsor others? i want to know.

 

you aren't portraying the concepts of the program here at all. aa or al-anon (heck, it's all the same step work).

 

i want an answer - you are misleading by inaccurate information - which is NEVER good! and YOU say you work in this field? you need to heavily educate yourself honey. seriously. people's lives depend upon your direction and you have no idea how far off base you are on many, many posts here.

[shadowplay]

LB - you are way off base. THAT is NOT the purpose of al-anon!

 

do YOU understand the step work? have YOU personally done the steps 1-12? do you sponsor others? i want to know.

 

you aren't portraying the concepts of the program here at all. aa or al-anon (heck, it's all the same step work).

 

i want an answer - you are misleading by inaccurate information - which is NEVER good! and YOU say you work in this field? you need to heavily educate yourself honey. seriously. people's lives depend upon your direction and you have no idea how far off base you are on many, many posts here.

 

Out of curiosity, is Al Anon helpful to people who don't have alcoholics in their lives?

[Leia]

dunno. only the alcoholic is capable of admitting for him/herself. it's usually tough to admit. once we admit - it usually means then we need to do something about it - which is exactly what the active drinker DOESN'T want to have to do. to keep drinking is the goal.

 

i know many who know an alcoholic say that things simply don't add up - things don't make sense. often chaos is created by the alkie on purpose to distract others from noticing what the real problem is. the goal is to distract so no one finds out the real truth. thus - the first step is to admit... to yourself and to others in a meeting is HUGE for a new recovering alcoholic. it's very powerful to admit and to no longer need to keep up with all the cover up and lies that need to keep working for us if we intend to continue the active drinking.

 

Thanks for your answer, 2sunny. Recent posts on this thread made me think about a friend of mine. My friends and I think she has a problem with drinking but like you said, it's probably something she wouldn't want to do - admitting she has a drinking problem. It's hard for us to see her deal with her problems by drinking. There's so much all of us can do but if she doesn't want to help herself then there's no way we can help her. I think her family had an intervention but that didn't work out too well.

[2sunny]

Hey SG, I wanted to know WHY you want to go to an Al-Anon meeting? I think it could be good for you, HOWEVER do you plan on moving on from him? Trying to get over him? Or will you take him back if he comes crawling back to you (which he probably will when he has use for you)?

 

I don't think he broke up with you because of you nagging him...nor do I believe that it may not have happened if you would have kept quiet. There is more going on with this guy then you/we probably know. I talk to addicts and their families everyday, I know what I'm talking about.

 

I'm not trying to make you feel bad..but you shouldn't feel so guilty that you are at fault or that your nagging drove him away..because it didn't. If your nagging bothered him that much then he would have been gone a long time ago. He broke up with you for another reason, but I don't even think you really need to worry about that reason. I would go on the basis that he just didn't want to be with you and try to move past it.

 

More important though, would you take him back if he did try to get back with you?

 

Well, yeah it's 5:00 somewhere!

 

All kidding aside, he probably does have stress in his life but drinking relieves that..it's why he does it.

 

I was going to suggest an Al-Anon meeting, they may have some good advice for you.

 

I told a client's SO one time to attend Nar-Anon (the drug addict equivalent) and he really enjoyed it and said he learned a lot. They may be able to help you move past him and get rid of your guilt. I hope you can move on though, I truley do. I don't think this is the type of life you want to lead...

 

I know it's hard to hear, but like I said..he did you a huge favor.

 

If it helps you get through the breakup then I think you should. But I also think you do need to try to work through this whole thing and move on. If Al-Anon helps you do that (which I know they will) then go for it. I have been to meetings and I know they are very helpful.

 

Yeah, I wasn't/didn't say you weren't...

 

What I was trying to say was that you-or anyone for that matter-should not use Al-Anon as a way of gearing up for a second round. And NO I am not saying you are/will do that. But I know that some, not all, partners use it for that...and it's not healthy.

 

Using Al-Anon for the purpose of closure and to deal with the breakup if a good idea.

 

So you would consider taking him back if he wanted to give the relationship another chance? I do not have an opinion on that, however I will say that it could enable his drinking and allow it to escalate if you do. On the other hand it may give him the push he needs to do something about it.

 

But for now it's best to just concentrate on your healing and put him on the back burner for now.

 

I NEVER SAID that was the purpose of Al-Anon. As SG, you are looking at my post and automatically finding some kind of fault..understandable as you are a recovering alcoholic and SG is in love with one.

 

I already said I am not a recovering alcoholic or addict, therefore have not participated or worked any of the steps. I understand the premises of AA/NA/Al-Anon. I have SEEN people go to those meetings for the wrong reasons..they have flat out told me. I understand that is NOT The purpose of NA/AA/Al-Anon. Personally, I do not preach those programs or any kind of specific recovery program in my counseling. I tel my clients that they need to do what works for them, whatever that may be. People in recovery that are into those programs hardcore will disagree with me saying that. But I stand by it. Those meetings are not for everyone..they aren't for me actually. I do advocate for them, as I know they do work for people.

 

Tonight I supervised an AA meeting in which a gentleman had 32 years sober..very impressive. So I know they work. But I do not use the specific steps or philospohy in my counseling.

 

So my response is, yes I understnad the premisis behind the programs, but I do not preach it or pressure people to go to it. You need to do what keeps you clean and sober, whatever that program may be.

 

This tells me you don't understand Al-Anon at all.

 

It couldn't hurt..I mean anyone can learn what family members/loved ones go through with alcoholics. They are actually very intestering and inspiring meetings. I speak with family members everyday and hear there pain. It's painful to hear, but wonderful to be able to help them with it.

 

Yeah, I changed my mind. You can't ban me from your thread.

 

I'm stating my opinon, free speech. Maybe others disagree with what they think those meetings are about..it happens.

 

Maybe some people will benefit from what I have to say..you never know.

 

So tell me what you think the programs are about? I'm intestered to hear.

 

LB - inaccurate information is terribly detrimental to people who are searching out recovery.

 

you are now purposely giving out info that has been harmful and confusing to anyone looking to get sober.

 

there ARE other programs, yes, AA just happens to be the one with the highest success rate.

 

people such as you are the reason why it often fails for so many. inaccurate info for people when their life is at stake is criminal - at best.

 

please educate yourself in your job. you are hurting the people you intend to help - way more than you understand.

 

and you supervised an AA meeting? no - you REALLY don't understand the program AT ALL! no one is to supervise. the group does that. one authority = HP. i don't expect a normy to "get" an alcoholic... but you seem to think you understand the disease - and you don't understand even the basics of what this is about. it's just not right.

 

was it an open or closed meeting?

[XxBacktoBlackXx]

Oh my G-d, it is so rude for the people who are asked to stay away not to do it. Seriously, it's just very disrespectful to add salt to the wound. It's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of being respectful to someone who is hurt.

[Leia]

Oh my G-d, it is so rude for the people who are asked to stay away not to do it. Seriously, it's just very disrespectful to add salt to the wound. It's not a matter of free speech, it's a matter of being respectful to someone who is hurt.

 

+1. Couldn't agree more with you, XxBacktoBlackXx!

[2sunny]

Why is that funny? Actually it's very helpful for the clients, as they are in rehab and have limited access to outside meetings. And I actually sit in the room and supervise to make sure the meeting doesn't get out of hand and stays therapeutic.

 

Okay, I am becoming argumentative, that's true.

 

So, anyway..how do you think your therapy helped you today? It sounds like you got a lot out of it so that's good. Loving someone with an addiction is rough, it helps to talk about your feelings definately. I did kind of get off focus with the whole NA/AA thing but we'll go back to you because this is your thread.

 

see, you really don't understand it at all. you have no business being in a closed meeting when you are not an alcoholic/addict. you are there trying to control everything - which is TOTALLY against the core belief of the program. no one is to control it... it is up to the group as a whole to steer the recovery process... based upon guidance from their HP.

 

you wer hired for a position that you are not qualified to fill... in turn harming the recovery of others with inaccurate info. that is so not right.

[2sunny]

That's something addicts/alcoholics say to addictions counselors that aren't in recovery..it happens a lot. It's a form of manipulation and a way to discredit someone who is trying to help them because they feel threatened or don't like what they have to say. Typical behavior.

 

On the flip side, addicts/alcoholics LIKE those who are in recovery also because they tend to coddle them more and condone behavior..I guess because they have been there. That's totally understandable. We have different approaches, however I have been told by addicts/alcoholics that they like my approach BETTER then the counselor in recovery...

 

If you have cancer or diabetes do you expect your doctor to have had the same in order to help you..probably not.

 

you are SO wrong LB. to give inaccurate info is YOUR fault... for not learning by doing. you are looking for manipulation in the wrong place... i never felt threatened when someone gave me accurate information based soley on the Big Book. have you read that? do you know it word for word so you can help someone in need of saving their life? NO ONE coddled me - and nor should they be coddled - they are there to get well.

 

i LOVED the people who worked with me who were tough one me - with facts to back up why i should do what i needed to do. why i shouldn't do what i might have been considering.

 

to have facts - and get them straight is critical in your job. you need to consider your position. i'm afraid for the people you work with when their very lives depend upon your inaccurate guidance.