Can men and women really be friends?

[lorr]

I'm starting to question whether this is the case. I have lost over 5 really good male friends over the years as all of them don't seem to understand what it is to be a friend.

 

I have never flirted or given them any indication that I want to take things further and see them as a "brother" type figure.

 

Just a few days ago a very good friend of mine that I have known for over 11 years made a pass at me at a family/friend gathering. I was absolutely mortified and I am still in shock as he was the last person I would expect this from.He behaved very inapprioprately, started rubbing my legs and arms, making sexual suggestions, and even referred to me as his missus in front of people that I didn't even know. He asked me whether I found him attractive, and that because he has been single for over 15 years that we would make a great couple. He said some other things that I can't even repeat.

 

I told him to stop but he just kept going on and on and it really pi$$ed me off.

 

Eventually I went home and couldn't stop thinking about how it has now come to this, and now I am having a real hard time thinking that another friendship is now inevitably lost.

 

He phoned me the next day and he sounded really down and apologised for his erractic behaviour(which he and I knew was very unlike him) I told him that it should never happen again.

 

I want to know whether anyone has been in a situation like this, and whether a friendship has ever recovered because of an underlying attraction on one's part? I just don't know what to do from here. Should I let him go and have no further contact? or is that being too harsh?

 

I am starting to get the impression that men and women just cannot be good friends.

 

It seemed that he must have had a drink or something before the gathering as he seemed quite out of it.

[Trimmer]

Now I'm the first one to admit that if he continued making any kind of advances even after you said "no", that he was out of line. I have no disagreement with that.

 

However, I'm interested in another more subtle aspect of your post. I'm getting (correct me if I'm wrong) that you feel like it was still a huge offense for him just to have shown romantic interest at all, is that right? The way you said that such a man doesn't "seem to understand what it is to be a friend...", actually come off a little... what is it? .. condescending? As if (1) the two are necessarily mutually exclusive, (2) friendship is static, and may only occur on your defined terms, and (3) it's a punishable fault that a friend might become attracted to you romantically.

 

I don't know... There's nothing about your post which I objectively have an issue with - no, he shouldn't have pushed beyond any boundary that you clearly communicated. But the tone of your post is just interesting, as if even his interest in anything romantic is wrong and upsetting and icky and surprising.

 

I guess if it has happened to you 5 times now, maybe it shouldn't be so surprising. And in fairness, maybe that's effectively the conclusion you are coming to when you say "men and women just cannot be good friends", although I might suggest that you are over-generalizing from your own experience. What you have learned is that you cannot be good friends wtih men - not the way you've been doing it, with the expectations you've been carrying - and expect them to hold to your standards of friendship. I wouldn't argue that point, but to generalize to all men and women.... I would say that everyone should get to work it out on their own terms.

[Morals]

What trimmer said is spot on. I'll add a few comments as well.

 

If this has happened 5 times with good male friends, perhaps it's time to review what you are doing that may be causing this. If you clearly communicate like you said you did, I fail to see how 5 male friends would make this move.

 

And another thing, like Trimmer said. Feelings for people change. Friendship is not mutually exclusive. Are you in a relationship with someone else already? (If so, Serious? Casual?) If not, I see that these guys did nothing wrong. Maybe the groping was a little much, as I personally would not be groping someone I was friends with that I was trying to ascertain what type of relationship I had with a person. But overall he really did nothing wrong. You said "no, and don't do it again". You communicated that very clearly.

 

Why have you "lost" those male friends? Did you view them as male friends on a platonic level, or did you treat them like females with penises?

 

The reason I state this is because women who treat men like females with penises are USING men. They use them as emotional dumpsters when they need them. A woman who treats a man like a man but is strictly platonic is much more healthy, she realizes that the dynamics between men and women are different, and that you can't treat a guy friend like "one of the girls".

 

Again, I feel for your loss of a friend. Maybe you can salvage it. Maybe not. Either way, don't make life out to be so black and white.

[lorr]

Thank you both for replying. My post was not meant to come out condescending whatsoever, but from a females point of view it is very uncomfortable if you see a male friend as purely platonic.

 

I have never used any of my male friends as "female penises", and had my female friends and male family relations to offer advice.

I also never flirted with, or gave any indication that I was into them in that way. What makes it difficult is that when they confess their feelings, its almost like they can't get to grips that I don't fancy them back or want to be in a relationship with them. Although I appreciate that it must have been hard for them to bring this up, I think its unfair somewhat if I am unable to reciprocate back what they feel for me.

 

A male friend recently told me, that men in general find it hard to be friends with a woman without the opportunity for things to develop further,even if you put them in the friendzone, and that men and women are not wired the same.

 

I do believe that I have been naive in many ways, and shouldn't have participated in sporting activities, cinemas, dining out etc with them, as it probably did give them the wrong idea.

 

I suppose the biggest shock was to have someone who I looked up to as a brother figure for over 11 years, behave like this and it has been a struggle to get my head around this.

 

Since he's apologised(which i accepted), we have briefly chatted, but know that things will not be the same, especially as he has deep feelings for me.

 

He has invited me to go to an event, but have had to decline the offer as not ready to face him yet.

[Gentlemen_shadow]

Personally I ahve a few friend that are women and I'm pretty sure I'm a man.. well last I checked

 

I know a lot of them I find attractive but never mad a pass at any of them. I have been told by two of them I'm like a big brother and I see it the same way.

 

I know I'm not the average guy in a lot of ways and maybe that's why but I don't have a problem with it. it is possible just avoid the horndogs and find a nice guy

[ADF]

Men almost never go out of their way to befriend women unless they are attracted to them. Almost never. Every woman on earth can be reasonably sure every one of her male friends would have sex with her if given the chance.

 

But that doesn't mean men and women cannot be friends. All men, all throughout our lives, run into women we'd like to have sex with but who are either not interested or not available. That's just part of life. If a man can accept that he can't have everything he wants, if he is willing to take "no" for an answer and leave the issue alone, he can certainly be friends with a woman.

[carhill]

He behaved very inapprioprately, started rubbing my legs and arms, making sexual suggestions, and even referred to me as his missus in front of people that I didn't even know. He asked me whether I found him attractive, and that because he has been single for over 15 years that we would make a great couple. He said some other things that I can't even repeat.

 

She massaged my feet. 'I'm so glad you're here'. She moves closer on the couch. Tells me some very personal and unflattering things about her husband, whom I know. She comments on certain aspects of my features in a flattering way. I show interest in listening about how she's *feeling* about her life right now. 'I can't be alone', she says. 'I need sex' she says. Moves a little closer. About that time, her father, my best friend, walks in the house. I have these flashbacks about him throwing semi-comatose teenage boys out on the lawn back when she was a teenager a generation ago. Her own boys are men now. That gives some perspective on the length of our 'friendship'.

 

Can men and women be friends? Sure, with *boundaries*. She and I established those boundaries at our next meeting, this time when she and her husband were visiting and she got me alone again. We sat across the room from each other and 'talked' after we agreed the prior interaction was too 'close'. Boundaries

 

Unlike the man in your example, I've never flirted with this particular lady and have known her for many years. She's like a daughter to me. I empathize with you. It's an awful feeling when you think things are one way and then all of a sudden it gets uncomfortable fast. Here's the thing, and I acknowledge it even if I choose not to act on it..... a man is a hunter. Women do not come to him, my experience notwithstanding. He is genetically engineered to pursue and socialized to compete and swallow rejection repeatedly without concern. He goes after what he wants, and, if that is a female 'friend', that's what it is. Men don't have, intrinsically, the same boundaries regarding friendship that women do. We can be socialized to respect and embrace those boundaries, and I've done this, but I do feel the call of the testosterone driven male genes. When I watch the success of men who act on their male imperative without the filters which were socialized into myself, I know that mine is the path less taken, and accept it. We all have our path.

 

Hope you meet and embrace some new and true friends. Friends are God's blessings

[phineas]

I don't psudo-date female friends.

I date women that are romantically interested in me.

 

I don't take female friends to family events.

I take GF's to family events.

 

I don't go to dinner & a movie with female friends.

I go to dinner & a movie with women romantically interested in me.

 

I interact with them the same as my guy friends.

Except I take my women friends shopping with me because they always complain my wardrobe & style sucks. LOL!

 

That honestly keeps me from becoming attached to women who "just want to be friends"

[lorr]

@ Phineas

 

Your thread has admittedly struck a chord. I can see where things with my male friends probably ended up going quite wrong towards the end.

 

They would invite me to go out for meals, movies,sporting activities, events/functions etc, which I thought was an innocent enough gesture, and I accepted the invites. I now believe that being in their presence probably contributed in making matters worse for them. As I said in a previous thread I was quite naive, and what I thought was an innocent and platonic friendship was far different from the ideas that they had.

 

But I suppose you live and you learn...

[Art_Critic]

Sometimes life is simpler than we like to make it..

 

When Harry Met Sally has some true life meaning in those comedy words..

They are so true...

 

 

Harry: You realize of course that we could never be friends.

Sally: Why not?

Harry: What I'm saying is — and this is not a come-on in any way, shape or form — is that men and women can't be friends because the sex part always gets in the way.

Sally: That's not true. I have a number of men friends and there is no sex involved.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally:Yes I do.

Harry: No you don't.

Sally: Yes I do.

Harry: You only think you do.

Sally: You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?

Harry: No, what I'm saying is they all want to have sex with you.

Sally: They do not.

Harry: Do too.

Sally: They do not.

Harry: Do too.

Sally: How do you know?

Harry: Because no man can be friends with a woman that he finds attractive. He always wants to have sex with her.

Sally: So you're saying that a man can be friends with a woman he finds unattractive?

Harry: No, you pretty much want to nail 'em too.

Sally: What if they don't want to have sex with you?

Harry: Doesn't matter because the sex thing is already out there so the friendship is ultimately doomed and that is the end of the story.

Sally: Well, I guess we're not going to be friends then.

Harry: Guess not.

Sally: That's too bad. You were the only person that I knew in New York.

[WTRanger]

Sometimes life is simpler than we like to make it..

 

When Harry Met Sally has some true life meaning in those comedy words..

They are so true...

 

It's funny because it is true.

 

Lorr, you've got to lay it down with him with your expectations. However, you cannot expect him to hang around if he's already established that he was hiding some deep feelings for you. And since he held them for so long, chances are he was crushed. Not by anything you did though, but just in the fact that he wasn't honest with your from the get go. He thought the gravity of his feelings would pull you in with no action.

 

There's a ton of gray area with taking a female friend out. Everyone has various opinions. Even if you are up front with a guy about your expectations, he'll still do it hoping for more. He may deny it, but if he's got those feelings he'll hold onto that one in a million shot with an iron grip. But when you think about it, going out with a female friend and going on a date with a female share a razors edge in similarity. With the end of the night expectations being the difference, which is why they may need to be established before hand. If you start to cloud those, that's when it really gets confusing.

[Trimmer]

Sally: You say I'm having sex with these men without my knowledge?

This is my favorite line from the whole movie, which even eclipses "I'll have what she's having..."

 

 

But when you think about it, going out with a female friend and going on a date with a female share a razors edge in similarity.

Indeed - they're both trying someone out, seeing and imagining what might happen next, whether in a small or a big way.

[Teflon]

I say only this - it is rare but it does sometimes happen.

 

99% of the time, one side of the friendship at some point trips over a line or a few. And the recovery part is hard, very hard. Personally I have lost now so many amazing girls I would have wanted to be friends with simply because they wanted more. And let's not even go to the amount of girls I lost because I wanted more. So yeah, from a lot of personal experience, it's rare but don't loose hope, men and women can indeed be friends.

 

But yeah, make sure you are careful tho. Don't give them any hope of anything, if someone even says something remotely resembling more, squash it immediately. Make sure you sometimes underline the friendship as friendship. After a while, it doesn't have to be done anymore.

 

And lastly, remember, there are some idiots out there who just behave stupidly. No rules apply.

[phineas]

@ Phineas

 

Your thread has admittedly struck a chord. I can see where things with my male friends probably ended up going quite wrong towards the end.

 

They would invite me to go out for meals, movies,sporting activities, events/functions etc, which I thought was an innocent enough gesture, and I accepted the invites. I now believe that being in their presence probably contributed in making matters worse for them. As I said in a previous thread I was quite naive, and what I thought was an innocent and platonic friendship was far different from the ideas that they had.

 

But I suppose you live and you learn...

 

When I was younger I used to go to dinner ect with women friends & I would get attached & they wern't interested & it sucked.

Not only that but these "lets just be friends" women started turning into that one friend who never had money when you went out, that one friend that always needed favors, ect once they knew I was into them.

 

I won't do that anymore.

 

I'm currently friends with a single mom.

our kids play together.

We have cook outs with the kids, do play dates ect.

 

She recently went clothes shopping with me (lost 45lbs & nothing fits anymore)

Then we went back to her place & cooked dinner & watched a movie.

separate chairs.

no flirting ect.

 

I could see myself possibly becoming attached. She's a very cool person that's attractive. So I keep her at arms length.

 

She has a guy friend she's known for almost 20yrs. he's deep in the friendzone. she isn't interested, yet he still orbits. has had one GF the whole time he's known her.

Takes her to dinner every once in a while ect instead of looking for someone who is interested.

 

Doesn't like me all that much. LOL!

 

I will not be that guy.

 

If she told me she met someone i'd just tell her to be careful & not fall for the player bs she fell for last time.

 

It would only bother me if she stopped having time to get together with the kids.

 

She recently asked me why I didn't ask her to a family wedding.

I told her because she isn't my GF & I don't take "just friends" to family weddings.

 

she seemed a little put out but accepted that as a valid reason.

[OldEurope]

Phineas,

 

This is interesting.

 

That she had hoped you would invite her to the wedding is a sign that she would like more with you. Do you see her at all as GF material? For, she is possibly the one becoming attached...

[Taramere]

I want to know whether anyone has been in a situation like this, and whether a friendship has ever recovered because of an underlying attraction on one's part? I just don't know what to do from here. Should I let him go and have no further contact? or is that being too harsh?

 

As long as a guy accepts the word no, I don't think him making an unsuccessful pass needs to be a big problem that needs to result in a friendship being ended.

I am starting to get the impression that men and women just cannot be good friends.

 

I think it's certainly too much to hope for that friendship between men and women can be uncomplicated. Black and white. The question is whether the friendship is strong and genuine enough to survive unrequited romantic feelings on either side.

 

It seemed that he must have had a drink or something before the gathering as he seemed quite out of it.

 

I wouldn't be harsh on him for having romantic/sexual feelings towards a female friend, but from what you describe - under the influence of drink, he wasn't listening to your "no" messages. Disregarding your boundaries. That's the bit that would annoy me and make me rethink the friendship. Certainly for the next while, if I were you I'd be inclined to avoid him in situations where he's likely to get drunk.