Update on your situation/affair

[White Flower]

WF, it's so hard, in your situation, to hang on to your power because by it's very nature he holds the cards. It's down to him. You deserve so much more than to be kept waiting and if he has taken the cruise with his family knowing the risk then I think you should grab your power back. When he returns, it's no longer his, he can't even take control of himself, let alone others. Find you again and move forward. Let him flounder in Never Never Land.

 

Take care.

 

(((((White Flower)))))

Thanks Hazyhead. I'm not even sure it is about power anymore. At this point, for him, there is a man who needs to figure out what he wants the most out of life. Either I'm it or not.

 

If I'm it, great. If I'm not, I will be fine. It's not really about power, just a decision to move forward with or without each other. I am strong and will survive. I hope he does too because I know it will be hard for him, mostly because he would be denying himself of fully claiming the one thing he's always denied himself: true love. He's only ever had it incrementally and on the side, never full time. I feel so sorry for him if he chooses the status quo, I honestly do.

 

WF why do you say you are too small in a world that doesnt notice you?

 

You are noticed but you have as you know given your power away to someone who isnt able to exercise that power in a way that honors the person you are.

 

You are as you say the only person who can stand up for you. MM cant even stand up for himself hes not likely to stand up for anyone else. This is the problem with weak men...

 

Any news on whether he is going on the cruise?

 

Big hugs

 

jj

You're right JJ, perhaps I was feeling sad when I stated it that way. I know I am noticed, just felt forgotten during that post. Again, he can choose to exercise a power he's never exhibited before which is hard to do but possible. I hope he overcomes his weakness.

 

He called and left a voicemail (because I refused to answer) with a promise of an update in his message. I really don't know anything yet except that 'life has been real strange at home'. That could mean anything.

 

How are you feeling jj? Over the feeling of needing revenge?

[jj33]

WF I used to say the same thing about xMM - that it would be so sad if he chose the status quo over love. But he did. And then he stomped on every good feeling I ever had for him. Something I never believed was possible.

 

Just be prepared that if he has not shown the strength until now, and more worrying is "updating you" on the status quo, what does that mean?

 

it means NOTHING has changed. This is his PERFECT opportunity to tell her that he is done.

 

Sweetie I know you feel like you are at the bitter end and want to play it out, but he is a master of dragging things out. Your best shot is to tell him, dont bother.

 

Unless you are calling to tell me you have told her you are leaving, and that you are in fact leaving or have left, I dont want dont need and cant listen to these sniveling cowardly updates anymore.

 

I mean what is this? Mommys mad oooh I may be punished will let you know how things go...

 

Im not trying to be mean but really. WTF is he doing? The same old thing.

 

Im fine I just feel like a total idiot that I have made myself look stupid because I fell for xMMs games yet again. And of course he would say he was just looking out for me it is my fault I responded as I did. And it is.

[White Flower]

WF I used to say the same thing about xMM - that it would be so sad if he chose the status quo over love. But he did. And then he stomped on every good feeling I ever had for him. Something I never believed was possible.

 

Just be prepared that if he has not shown the strength until now, and more worrying is "updating you" on the status quo, what does that mean?

 

it means NOTHING has changed. This is his PERFECT opportunity to tell her that he is done.

 

Sweetie I know you feel like you are at the bitter end and want to play it out, but he is a master of dragging things out. Your best shot is to tell him, dont bother.

 

Unless you are calling to tell me you have told her you are leaving, and that you are in fact leaving or have left, I dont want dont need and cant listen to these sniveling cowardly updates anymore.

 

I mean what is this? Mommys mad oooh I may be punished will let you know how things go...

 

Im not trying to be mean but really. WTF is he doing? The same old thing.

 

Im fine I just feel like a total idiot that I have made myself look stupid because I fell for xMMs games yet again. And of course he would say he was just looking out for me it is my fault I responded as I did. And it is.

Oh, you're right about the update call. I didn't ask for it and as far as he knows I didn't listen to it.

 

I won't be taking calls whatsoever if he goes on the cruise. If he goes, it's ba-bye.

 

OK, that sounded mean, but it is what it is. I won't be taking update calls or allowing him to be the master at anything anymore. He had the chance to be the master of my world but his chances are very slim now.

 

About the bolded part, that is how I feel too. He's obeying Mommy. How can I respect a man like that? If he loves her as a wife, great, tell me to my face. If he loves her as a mommy then good luck in life. I will NEVER be your mother!!!

[jj33]

Well done. This "mean Mommy" thing is a big issue.

 

I used to wonder, if he was so used to living with mean Mommy for so many years (and I dont to mean Mommy no interest whatsoever), then how would he cope with being in a relatoinship without mean Mommy on a full time basis?

 

he relies on mean mommy to tell him what to do, what not to do, he gets the thrill of being a bad boy, can exercise his autonomy within limits by having As etc knowing that mean mommy is there holding down the fort.

 

Its like what they say with children, they like limits. These men who stay married to mean Mommy are the same in my book. There is something that keeps them there and I have come to believe that on a certain level the dynamic works for them.

 

I mean you wouldnt be mean, he wouldnt have to go elsewhere for affection, love support understanding. But you also wouldnt turn a blind eye to any of his nonsense.

 

I have also come to beleive that they stay because they like the freedom. The freedom of disobeying mean mommy knowing that shes always there, no matter what they do.

 

The question I had just before I gave up any hope whatsoever was, just how much therapy would it take to "undo" the years of living that dynamic and just how much therapy would it take for him to learn to deal with a relationship that didnt involve a mean mommy. It would be like teaching a ballerina how to walk again. Youd be starting from scratch.

 

The fact that they can "do" normal interaction in an affair is not the same (I dont think) as being able to do it full time. The safety net of mean mommy is then gone.

 

I do hope things work out differently for you but I am concerned that he hasnt taken the bull by the horns when the opportunity is staring him in the face.

 

Big hugs

 

jjxx

[White Flower]

Well done. This "mean Mommy" thing is a big issue.

 

I used to wonder, if he was so used to living with mean Mommy for so many years (and I dont to mean Mommy no interest whatsoever), then how would he cope with being in a relatoinship without mean Mommy on a full time basis?

 

he relies on mean mommy to tell him what to do, what not to do, he gets the thrill of being a bad boy, can exercise his autonomy within limits by having As etc knowing that mean mommy is there holding down the fort.

 

Its like what they say with children, they like limits. These men who stay married to mean Mommy are the same in my book. There is something that keeps them there and I have come to believe that on a certain level the dynamic works for them.

 

I mean you wouldnt be mean, he wouldnt have to go elsewhere for affection, love support understanding. But you also wouldnt turn a blind eye to any of his nonsense.

 

I have also come to beleive that they stay because they like the freedom. The freedom of disobeying mean mommy knowing that shes always there, no matter what they do.

 

The question I had just before I gave up any hope whatsoever was, just how much therapy would it take to "undo" the years of living that dynamic and just how much therapy would it take for him to learn to deal with a relationship that didnt involve a mean mommy. It would be like teaching a ballerina how to walk again. Youd be starting from scratch.

 

The fact that they can "do" normal interaction in an affair is not the same (I dont think) as being able to do it full time. The safety net of mean mommy is then gone.

 

I do hope things work out differently for you but I am concerned that he hasnt taken the bull by the horns when the opportunity is staring him in the face.

 

Big hugs

 

jjxx

Thanks jj, and very good analogy I might add.

 

And just to be fair, I don't believe every MM is like ours.

 

I have often pointed this analogy out to him, with different language of course, and he just didn't concur. Perhaps he coudln't even see it. Who knows, maybe I was way off the mark? But I think not.

 

At any rate, life is short and so is his window. I'm OK though, I will get over the highs and lows of this and move on.

 

Take care sweetie.

[jj33]

I agree I dont think they are all the same. I think its a common syndrome among certain longstanding serial adulterers.

 

I know you will get through this. If he misses out on you, he is the poorer for it. Someone like you only comes around once in a lifetime.

 

jjxx

[califnan]

Oh, you're right about the update call. I didn't ask for it and as far as he knows I didn't listen to it.

 

I won't be taking calls whatsoever if he goes on the cruise. If he goes, it's ba-bye.

 

OK, that sounded mean, but it is what it is. I won't be taking update calls or allowing him to be the master at anything anymore. He had the chance to be the master of my world but his chances are very slim now.

 

About the bolded part, that is how I feel too. He's obeying Mommy. How can I respect a man like that? If he loves her as a wife, great, tell me to my face. If he loves her as a mommy then good luck in life. I will NEVER be your mother!!!

 

-------------------

 

Wait until he comes back before you give him the verbal heave ho - not before he leaves..

 

I've done it both ways .. you will be more ready, upon his return and with plenty of time to think your position, and with no regrets ... and it will leave him more finished off, too. If you do it before he leaves, you may be more inclined to let guilt come in, and take him back - upon his return.

[califnan]

JJ, I'm not putting that much into the "mean mommy" analogy .. I think whether the MM puts the burden on his wife - or just wishes for something extra in his life - he is a user and that is it ..

[jj33]

Joe its hard to walk away when you see someone struggling with the choice and have reason to think that maybe just maybe there are going to grow a pair and actually make a change in their life.

 

There are a million reasons to stay and only one reason to go, the reason to leave is that despite all the reasons to stay, you are willing to take a chance on the real love this man has with WF.

 

Its hard to understand but its a testament to WFs compassion and her belief in the best in people.

 

WF is being wise she has drawn a line in the sand, it take a long time for the hope to die even after that line is drawn.

 

Joe I held onto that hope for longer than I was in the A. Even while I was telling him to f off I held out hope for a long long time. I dont anymore but I did. For far longer than I let on. You are one of hte lucky ones, your hope and belief paid off so you never had to live through this part of the story.

[JustJoe]

Yep, the story about the mean, old H or W, has kept many an affair going, long after the thrill is gone.

[jj33]

Lolapalooza Im not saying all MM are like that, a small minority it just so happens that the man WF is involved with and the man I was involved with were very similar.

 

And I have it on good authority (never from xMM but from 5 different people who know them) that this was the case. He never said a bad word about her or his marriage.

[califnan]

I think the OW wants to save him, regardless..

 

But after she walks away from him, she realizes how Distructive the A was - and what a user he was.. To want two women in his life, of course he was a user - otherwise he would divorce.. (excepting for money - or using the poor children) ..

[JustJoe]

JJ, I actually think that WF is now doing the right thing, although she won't believe it. I was primarily talking about WS'S playing off one against the other. Sometimes it's very subtle, merely inference, but I would bet my spurs that the WS in the vast majority of cases has either said something or omitted something that would lead the OP to believe and sympathize. JMO, However.

[jj33]

I agree with you Joe. I think WF is doing the right thing and if this forum is a guide then lots of people do that.

 

I wouldnt know myself, he never ever said anything bad about his W. Any inferences I drew were from what others said and it used to annoy me the way they gossiped about them but when I was in it I saw it for what it was. It was only after that I wondered if there cuold have been more to it. Guess what there wasnt...

[White Flower]

-------------------

 

Wait until he comes back before you give him the verbal heave ho - not before he leaves..

 

I've done it both ways .. you will be more ready, upon his return and with plenty of time to think your position, and with no regrets ... and it will leave him more finished off, too. If you do it before he leaves, you may be more inclined to let guilt come in, and take him back - upon his return.

Hmm, I'll have to think about that. I don't know how nice I'll be after waiting for him to return knowing what he already chose--a life without me. But thanks for the advice.

[White Flower]

I feel sorry for the wives at home who are being portrayed as "mean mommies" when in fact, they may be quite the opposite. Yet, many OW lap up what is fed to them and ask for more. For years, no less.

Don't worry lolapalooza, we don't believe everything we hear. If it were ALL true they wouldn't stay, now would they?!

[califnan]

Hmm, I'll have to think about that. I don't know how nice I'll be after waiting for him to return knowing what he already chose--a life without me. But thanks for the advice.

 

--------------------

 

It's not going to stick until you are good and fed up ..

[JustJoe]

Compliment? I'm usually not a very complimentary person. Must be something wrong with me , today. IDK, maybe the house remodeling, paint fumes.....something. Wf, in all seriousness, I think you are doing very good (if you stick to it). You have a lot to offer a man, and should never be short-changed, during the transaction, so to speak. This MM has proven toxic in the past, and you really have no reason to believe that you have built up any immunity to the toxin. I don't remember where you live, but I'm sure that they have buses there. The next one that rolls by, throw him under it, and go on your merry way. JJ, In your case, I would go "old school", on him, tell him to leave your ass alone and not talk behind your back, and if he doesn't heed the warning, tell him you know of a ex-Army Captain, who will kick his junk all over the shop. Hey, I may be a vicious, bitter bastard, but my heart's in the right place.

[White Flower]

--------------------

 

It's not going to stick until you are good and fed up ..

Um, that's why I already did what I did instead of what like you suggested.

 

But thanks, I get the sentiment.

[White Flower]

Compliment? I'm usually not a very complimentary person. Must be something wrong with me , today. IDK, maybe the house remodeling, paint fumes.....something. Wf, in all seriousness, I think you are doing very good (if you stick to it). You have a lot to offer a man, and should never be short-changed, during the transaction, so to speak. This MM has proven toxic in the past, and you really have no reason to believe that you have built up any immunity to the toxin. I don't remember where you live, but I'm sure that they have buses there. The next one that rolls by, throw him under it, and go on your merry way. JJ, In your case, I would go "old school", on him, tell him to leave your ass alone and not talk behind your back, and if he doesn't heed the warning, tell him you know of a ex-Army Captain, who will kick his junk all over the shop. Hey, I may be a vicious, bitter bastard, but my heart's in the right place.

Then keep on sniffin' those fumes or smoke what you're smokin' cause I'm likin' this nicer side of you Joe.

 

There are buses here Joe, thanks for the advice.

[JustJoe]

Actually, I'm quite cuddly.

[White Flower]

Actually, I'm quite cuddly.

Now see...it's all about you again Joe.

 

Tee hee, just kiddin'.

[JustJoe]

Well, SHE thinks so, so I guess that's all that matters. Goddamn, I am such a sucker for big eyes and freckles.

[jj33]

Thanks Joe! Its good to know chivalry's not dead and that youve got my back!

[NoIDidn't]

I find myself unable to sleep tonight and since this post confused me I thought I would revisit it. First you say:

 

Then you say:

 

I guess I'm confused because you seem to want me to not 'choose' to put up with his bullc**p but in the same breath you want me there to support him during his time of need.

 

Then you stand up for his right to be with his family, as if I would pull him away from his family and 'demanding that he stop fully (at least at whatever level he was/is doing) participate in his life'. I could never demand that he stop fully anything at all. I'm only asking him to stop pretending to everyone. It has become toxic to us all. Why do you think she shreds photos or I can't sleep at night? And I'm sure the stress is taking its toll on him as well in some capacity.

 

So, do you want me to be his lifeline forever or do you want me to stand up for myself when I happen to need a lifeline?

 

I suppose if taking a stand in what I believe is right by all then yes, it's drama. I'm done with the status quo and if the end is near then so be it. At least I tried my best.

 

We haven't spoken in four days so don't think I'm jumping when the phone rings.

 

I agree that what I said appears to be a contradiction. But that's the point. The A IS the contradiction. You SHOULD NOT be there for him was my point. But you have and then make unreasonable demands on him (the cruise deal).

 

It was what you accepted when you entered the R. It is what must end. I know the thread has moved on from that point, but wanted to answer a little.

 

If you are going to withdraw, don't do it on the other side of an ultimatum ("If you go on the cruise, its over). Withdraw, period ("I need you to make a firm decision regarding your M or us. I will not be contacting you and don't expect you to contact me if your intention is to stay married.").

 

Ending it with your sanity is the best thing right now, regardless of the cruise or whatever other family obligation (that shouldn't even be your consideration) may be going on on his part.