Support vs Debate/Judgement?

[Silly_Girl]

The point in the Update thread made me want to comment, but I was worried about thread-jacking, so here goes...

 

As a newbie, with no alliances to any posters or no pre-conceived views, I agree with the point that some posters are judged more harshly (because they are either in an affair, or not condemning that behaviour) than others.

 

I've been the WS (very briefly); the BS and the OW. I accept the moralistic anti-affair arguments, and I understand that there are folks for whom some posts touch a nerve. But because this is the OW/OM board I thought there would be more 'support' and that it would be more centred around the OP, where appropriate.

 

For example, it's possible to tell an OW 'you will feel worse if you do x, y, z, because of the following reasons [insert what you like here]' without saying 'well, you're already a bad person 'cos you messed with a married guy, so you deserve everything you get'.

 

Personally, I've done pretty well here, in terms of advice and support. Very well in fact. On balance I'm so pleased I found LS, but I often wonder how supported I'd feel, or how much patience I'd receive, if I were still in a relationship with a married person.

 

All of us can make mistakes, or struggle to get perspective, or really find themselves with no one else to turn to and I think that's where the 'support' part comes in. Even the very best of people can make a stupid mistake or find their life takes a turn they never intended, and this place could be their salvation, or only friend.

 

And I just want to add I have no single person/thread in mind as I write this. And it's not even a question, just my thoughts but I didn't want to T-J. Thanks for listening.

[jthorne]

I think I'll have another margarita and pull up a chair for the show.

 

I'll think up a more supportive response in a minute.

[jj33]

Silly its a public forum and that means that everyone has the right to put their 2 cents in. Certain threads have a certain bent to them and you know that up front. Other time people ask for advice and get reactions that they may or may not expect (good and bad). As you read the posts you also get a feel for the point of view of different posters.

 

This is not the most supportive forum for people who are in affairs who want to stay there that is certainly true. The people in those situations tend to be quite strong in their positions and post anyway. There are other forums on other sites which are more welcoming to people who are looking for support for, as an example, waiting out the WS until he leaves the W.

[wheelwright]

Hi SG

 

When I first came here I got a lot more support than bashing.

 

And the bashing was always ludicrous to me.

 

The harsh comments were part of what I needed to hear.

 

Sometimes I read other threads and thought about why I didn't get the same condemnation. Perhaps because I really was quite naive - to LS and to As.

 

Touching a nerve in a post makes you aware of the nerves. This is a community like any other in that respect.

 

I have learnt great respect for the 'nerves' we trespass on here. But I have trod on many in the process.

 

Others want to just castigate. Some are speaking from hurt. We all learn to hear the advice/stories that are meaningful.

 

The only posts that really got me were those that called me a liar and made me out to be worse than what I am. I do not include here the posts from die hard As are as wrong as murder types. The ones who make insidious comments designed to derail the thrust of your thread more like.

 

I haven't yet worked out what the boundary is. But I'm thinking on.

[fooled once]

The point in the Update thread made me want to comment, but I was worried about thread-jacking, so here goes...

 

As a newbie, with no alliances to any posters or no pre-conceived views, I agree with the point that some posters are judged more harshly (because they are either in an affair, or not condemning that behaviour) than others.

 

I've been the WS (very briefly); the BS and the OW. I accept the moralistic anti-affair arguments, and I understand that there are folks for whom some posts touch a nerve. But because this is the OW/OM board I thought there would be more 'support' and that it would be more centred around the OP, where appropriate.

 

For example, it's possible to tell an OW 'you will feel worse if you do x, y, z, because of the following reasons [insert what you like here]' without saying 'well, you're already a bad person 'cos you messed with a married guy, so you deserve everything you get'.

 

Personally, I've done pretty well here, in terms of advice and support. Very well in fact. On balance I'm so pleased I found LS, but I often wonder how supported I'd feel, or how much patience I'd receive, if I were still in a relationship with a married person.

 

All of us can make mistakes, or struggle to get perspective, or really find themselves with no one else to turn to and I think that's where the 'support' part comes in. Even the very best of people can make a stupid mistake or find their life takes a turn they never intended, and this place could be their salvation, or only friend.

 

And I just want to add I have no single person/thread in mind as I write this. And it's not even a question, just my thoughts but I didn't want to T-J. Thanks for listening.

 

There is a difference for everyone in what they view "support" as.

 

As an older (as in age) member, I hate seeing some of these very young women hanging their future on a MM and his 'tales' of one day leaving his wife for her.

 

As someone who has been through an A, I have been through what many who are going through -- believing everything that is being said to them, sitting and waiting for a phone call, knowing that weekends are the worst since he is with his wife/family.

 

I know I have never told a person THEY are bad; but I do believe that someone committing adultery IS bad behavior. I do believe that those that mock the betrayed spouse are not nice people. I do believe that those that say it isn't a competition are just deluding themselves.

 

Support comes in many forms - for some, it is hugs and kisses, for some it is telling someone what they want to hear. For others, it is laying it out there - saying it like it is. Some people write better, more flowery than others. Some people are just straightforward, no nonsense type of people.

 

I personally will never tell a woman having an affair that what they are doing is great, he will eventually leave her for you, hang in there and continue to put your life on hold waiting for him, etc.

 

I will tell them to get out. If he loves that sooooo much, he will move mountains to be with them (and this includes getting a divorce).

 

There are some posters who have bonded. There are some who PM regularly (or even email). I have had PM's telling me to pound sand and others thanking me for helping them.

 

It is the internet. You are going to get some posters who basically, "drop and turd and leave" meaning say something crappy and then bolt.

 

Each person has to wade through responses and take to heart what affects them.

 

The name calling has at times gotten so out of hand. The new made up names some want to use, the ones who call others bitter when they disagree, etc. It has gotten ugly at times.

 

Take what you need and leave the rest. That is my motto.

[Fallen Angel]

Someone who comes here looking for support to stay in an EMR are not likely to find a whole lot of sympathy and helpful advice here, but there are a few of us who are happy, content OW who are able to offer support for people who also seem to be happy, content OW.

 

But, I will not offer support to an OW who wants to stay in an affair where I see her being hurt, mistreated, abused, or misused. I will offer supportive advice on ending any relationship I see as being unhealthy, be it a marriage or an affair. Period.

 

So my support depends on the situation... I too have been accused of "judging" some OW too harshly, when all I was doing was calling it like I saw it. *shrug*

 

Some people are not ready for honest advice, if it is not what they want to hear.

 

some people are incapable of seeing honest, heartfelt advice for what it is.

 

And some people are incapable of offering honest heartfelt advice and simply want to turn the knife they are trying to stab in your open wounds.

 

Each person must simply take what they find helpful and leave the rest. If a post is a violation of TOS report it, and if you feel a poster is singling you out for ridicule ignore them.

 

But to hope that everyone on this board are going to get along beautifully without some backhanded slams is just asking too much. It is not possible, I promise. There have been many many many threads just like this one.. it gets us nowhere but where we were.

[Circular]

I see a mix of folks, some supportive, some condemning, some walking down the center of the road. I think that's probably why I haven't posted a 'this is my situation thread' outside of snippets in/out of existing threads.

 

From more of a sociological point of view people tend to have to deal with a lot of internal conflict when discussing and trying to support someone in an A as it's not just any type of relationship; depending on who you are there are moral repercussions, guilt, religious implications and the list goes on. For example, I might want to offer you support as your a human and in a lot of pain but what you did goes against my moral code so therefore I'm going to hit you with this pan first.

 

Then there are those who have been the BS or have been in an A and they were hurt badly. There's a lot of pain there and I understand that and maybe them being non-supportive is on one hand cathartic, or maybe knowing the depths of pain in being betrayed they're being supportive, not of you, but of the BS which is not a bad view to have.

 

Myself, I don't mind either way. I like to aggregate the responses and take the points that I think are articulated with a sense of respect and knowing, find those that understand or resonate with what I've gone through.

 

I know my situation wasn't a ONS and it wasn't about the PA that emerged (some 14 months into the EA). I'd give that up in a heartbeat to have the xMW I was so deeply connected with in my life. I think every situation is unique in many ways, though many follow similar patterns. We live, we learn and hopefully don't do much damage along the way.

[Ellin]

Yeah, I commented on this issue in the update thread after someone wrote that she was worried about posting for that reason.

 

It just makes my blood boil when time after time a person in despair comes here for support, often in similar state of mind, which is typical of being in a certain stage of an A, and then they are jumped at and torn to pieces emotionally, only ending up apologizing for their actions and feelings and begging for some understanding. No wonder many don't come back as they can only end up feeling worse afterwards.

 

I know about this first hand.

 

I disagree with many things that are posted as a knee-jerk reaction one-size-fits-all, but to name a few:

 

1. Telling someone that they should completely disregard their own feelings and act against them, when the feelings are as strong as they can be. As a result the person only starts think of themselves as useless and blaming themselves, as they cannot stop feeling what they're feeling, especially when they're at their lowest.

 

2. Saying things like "he/she doesnt love you, only uses you, will never ever leave their spouse" etc., as if the poster is someone with special powers to know the future. While they know nothing about the people involved and the situation. It may as well be possible that the MM/MW is actually telling the truth and they do have feelings for the OW/OM and are unhappy in their M.

 

3. Saying that if the MM/MW really loved the OW/OM they would "move mountains" etc, leave the spouse, get divorced and all that, reagrdless of the situation. Someone comes on the board telling their story about the A that has lasted, let's say a few months, and is told that the D should be done by now, otherwise the AP is a cold liar. Unrealistic expectations, for example to give an ultimatum, when the situation is not yet ready for such a move.

 

Life is not black and white, nor a fairy tale. It is very complex and far from ideal. Things have to run their course so that they can be dealt with in the least painful way and the lessons can be learned.

 

These are subtle ways of making a person, who's in great emotional pain feel even worse (saying that, I don't mean that it is necessarily done deliberately). I don't even mention the more judgemental and condemning behaviors.

 

Despite the sticky thread on this very issue, there are still plenty of posts smelling of moral zealotry and/or inner conflicts resulting from not accepting one's past choices.

 

End of rant.

[jthorne]

I think it was either Owl or jwi that said that those that can't accept both positive and negative support aren't looking for support at all. They are looking for validation.

This is not a validation site.

If you want validation, go to that glory bee site.

[GreenEyedLady]

I was an OW (unknowing for a while).

 

I've experienced many things in my lifetime. I myself was previously married and betrayed although, I don't identify with the BS's here because my case was a little different.

 

However, I identify as a woman and a wife. My MM is really MY MM now, but I guess for these purposes, he's my H. :-)

 

I have had a front row seat to the MM's emotions, deceit, change etc. I kinda get why they say what they do and where they think it's going.

 

So why does disagreeing with someone not equal support and equal judgment? Why do I have to applaud people I think are going to hurt themselves or others? If that's judgment, then that's you convicted and you already know you're wrong and that's why it's upsetting to you.

 

GEL

[fooled once]

I know about this first hand.

 

So do many others -- know this first hand. Many of us were in an A. We know the things that are said. We have all seen post after post of a newbie saying things that we all were told, we all felt, we all believed. So in many ways, there are "lines" that a M person will tell to keep the Affair partner invested in the affair.

 

I disagree with many things that are posted as a knee-jerk reaction one-size-fits-all, but to name a few:

 

1. Telling someone that they should completely disregard their own feelings and act against them, when the feelings are as strong as they can be. As a result the person only starts think of themselves as useless and blaming themselves, as they cannot stop feeling what they're feeling, especially when they're at their lowest.

 

2. Saying things like "he/she doesnt love you, only uses you, will never ever leave their spouse" etc., as if the poster is someone with special powers to know the future. While they know nothing about the people involved and the situation. It may as well be possible that the MM/MW is actually telling the truth and they do have feelings for the OW/OM and are unhappy in their M.

 

3. Saying that if the MM/MW really loved the OW/OM they would "move mountains" etc, leave the spouse, get divorced and all that, reagrdless of the situation. Someone comes on the board telling their story about the A that has lasted, let's say a few months, and is told that the D should be done by now, otherwise the AP is a cold liar. Unrealistic expectations, for example to give an ultimatum, when the situation is not yet ready for such a move.

 

and many things ARE black and white.

 

Affairs hurt people.

Affairs are based in deceit

Affairs are based in secrecy

Affairs aren't 'good' for anyone

 

As to the "move mountains" -- damn straight if a person loved another person, they would MOVE MOUNTAINS to be with them. Most people in love want to shout it to the world, want to be with the person they love, want to spend their life with them. They don't want to 'share' the one they love with someone else. They want to be the ones at the bedside in sickness. They want to plan out the future, make the memories. They want to go home to that person, night after night.

 

They don't want to slink around, calling on the sly, meeting for a quickie in secret, gaslighting a spouse, tell straight out lies. Is it fun to watch and make sure the MM/MW isn't wearing your scent, doesn't have clothes on backwards, doesn't look like they were just thoroughly sexually satisfied? Isn't it sad to not be able to go with the person they love to watch their kid play sports, or go to a ballet recital or a high school graduation? Doesn't it hurt to know that the person you love is sharing that with someone else, knowing those memories will be what they will think back on together? To not be able to get to know their kid(s), to not be able to personally share in their happiness that Julie won the spelling bee in her 5th grade class or Bobby graduated with honors. Sure, you can listen to the MM/MW tell you about it, but wouldn't it be more special to go with them, to be there when it happens, to personally share in the person you loves joy?

 

Divorce isn't easy. I know - I have been there, done that. No one said a divorce was easy - but many have said divorce is possible, it is an option. To imply differently is not accurate, IMHO. Divorce with children is possible. Again, been there, done that. Divorce is scary, divorce can be lonely, divorce can be costly.

 

But wouldn't any of us do that if it meant we got to be with our 'soul mate', the one we love so deeply, the best friend we can't live without?

 

Or maybe it is just easier and less costly to slink around and have a 'relationship' in secret?

 

Of course, I am only speaking of those affairs where there is love and wanting to be together. There are others who are just in it for the thrill, for the adventure .... who change partners like the seasons change. For those people, to each their own.

 

there is a great saying ... why make someone a priority when you are only an option. The MM/MW is made a priority by the Affair person, yet the affair person is the option and the spouse is the priority. If that isn't the case, then why do these MM/MW go home to the spouse night after night, if they are so in love with the Affair Person?

[BB07]

I think I'll have another margarita and pull up a chair for the show.

 

I'll think up a more supportive response in a minute.

 

 

Oh.......you crack me up jthorne! I needed a good laugh. Thanks!

 

Now back to reading the comments and who knows I might have myself a jack and coke and make my own comment.

[GreenEyedLady]

But FO, it's so much easier to say that "it's complicated" when it's really just easier for the MP and meets the MP's needs/availability.

 

GEL

[Fallen Angel]

Oh.......you crack me up jthorne! I needed a good laugh. Thanks!

 

Now back to reading the comments and who knows I might have myself a jack and coke and make my own comment.

 

Now there is someone who knows how to drink with me... none of that fu-fu fruity sweet stuff here.. I may just have one with ya... does anyone know the possible side effects of having an alcoholic drink while taking sudafed?

[GreenEyedLady]

Now there is someone who knows how to drink with me... none of that fu-fu fruity sweet stuff here.. I may just have one with ya... does anyone know the possible side effects of having an alcoholic drink while taking sudafed?

 

Dry nose?

 

Happy demeanor?

 

GEL

[MorningCoffee]

Now there is someone who knows how to drink with me... none of that fu-fu fruity sweet stuff here.. I may just have one with ya... does anyone know the possible side effects of having an alcoholic drink while taking sudafed?

 

Sleep. Sound sleep.

[BB07]

I do wish that I had found a site like this back during my affair, but yet I know that there would have been some things that would have been said that would have really hurt, hurt because they would have cut to the core of what I knew but I wasn't admitting to myself. (That he wasn't leaving anytime soon.)

 

Personally I like this site because you get a lot of varied opinions, yes some of it is harsh and it hurts, but you have to learn to take what you can use and file 13 the rest. One thing I don't have any use for, is the people who never post in this section except when they have the urge to be unusually cruel and sometimes mean and nasty. I'd rather have a mix of varied opinions than a place that just coddles the OM/OW. If that is what you desire than there is such a place for that too.

 

Some really great responses so far. (where is that thumbs up little man)

[BB07]

Now there is someone who knows how to drink with me... none of that fu-fu fruity sweet stuff here.. I may just have one with ya... does anyone know the possible side effects of having an alcoholic drink while taking sudafed?

 

I hear ya! If I'm gonna have one, I want something with a little burn to it. :laugh:

 

Ahhh sudafed.....might not be a good combo.

[jthorne]

Now there is someone who knows how to drink with me... none of that fu-fu fruity sweet stuff here.. I may just have one with ya... does anyone know the possible side effects of having an alcoholic drink while taking sudafed?

Hey now, you don't know how I make margaritas! Little tequila for me, little tequila for the blender, little tequila for me, more for the blender... Blend, pour, tequila floater on top.

All the support I need.

Until I have to stand up to go to the loo to pee.

[NoIDidn't]

I take issue with the unnecessarily harsh posts as well. I know where the persons posting them are coming from, but I've decided that that isn't my purpose (or maybe, the purpose) of posting in this forum.

 

I have lived my life around a lot of affairs. I wouldn't exist were it not for affairs. My H's EA brought this home for me in a different way. I totally get why an OW will defend her MM's actions, I will defend my H's integrity until he dies. He is a good man. He did a very hurtful thing, to me and our families, but his core is not rotten. A lot of the men I know in affairs are not at all like my H. In fact, when he told them, they were shocked that he had the balls to do it (their words, not mine).

 

I can see that some of these MM are truly conflicted and torn. Sometimes they do come from bad marriages, but that isn't always the case. Its hard to read stories from OW that have concocted a different reality for the MM than the one that he actually lives in. Its also pretty obvious when they do so as well. When one is called on that, its not judgment, its pointing out the obvious.

[TinaniT]

Yeah, I commented on this issue in the update thread after someone wrote that she was worried about posting for that reason.

 

It just makes my blood boil when time after time a person in despair comes here for support, often in similar state of mind, which is typical of being in a certain stage of an A, and then they are jumped at and torn to pieces emotionally, only ending up apologizing for their actions and feelings and begging for some understanding. No wonder many don't come back as they can only end up feeling worse afterwards.

 

I know about this first hand.

 

I disagree with many things that are posted as a knee-jerk reaction one-size-fits-all, but to name a few:

 

1. Telling someone that they should completely disregard their own feelings and act against them, when the feelings are as strong as they can be. As a result the person only starts think of themselves as useless and blaming themselves, as they cannot stop feeling what they're feeling, especially when they're at their lowest.

 

2. Saying things like "he/she doesnt love you, only uses you, will never ever leave their spouse" etc., as if the poster is someone with special powers to know the future. While they know nothing about the people involved and the situation. It may as well be possible that the MM/MW is actually telling the truth and they do have feelings for the OW/OM and are unhappy in their M.

 

3. Saying that if the MM/MW really loved the OW/OM they would "move mountains" etc, leave the spouse, get divorced and all that, reagrdless of the situation. Someone comes on the board telling their story about the A that has lasted, let's say a few months, and is told that the D should be done by now, otherwise the AP is a cold liar. Unrealistic expectations, for example to give an ultimatum, when the situation is not yet ready for such a move.

 

Life is not black and white, nor a fairy tale. It is very complex and far from ideal. Things have to run their course so that they can be dealt with in the least painful way and the lessons can be learned.

 

These are subtle ways of making a person, who's in great emotional pain feel even worse (saying that, I don't mean that it is necessarily done deliberately). I don't even mention the more judgemental and condemning behaviors.

 

Despite the sticky thread on this very issue, there are still plenty of posts smelling of moral zealotry and/or inner conflicts resulting from not accepting one's past choices.

 

End of rant.

 

I agree.

 

And I'm not saying all disagreeing posts are overly judgmental and harsh at all. Most certainly not. Rather, many seem to just be concern. HOWEVER, I certainly have seen that some posters seem too set to see a different set of circumstances, seemingly through their past hurt, or situation which I do not know about. They are there and it is thoroughly clear which those are. I just hope the damaged people who try to hurt or judge others find peace, not take it personally. I hope the people I have seen subjected to these do the same. It can be obvious when the actual question asked is ignored for chastising or unconsidered warnings of something not asked about.

 

I suppose it would hurt more if I were less secure in my MM. (Is he still that anymore? His divorce is almost finalized.)

 

Overall though, I feel most here do so in a place of support, even when disagreeing. If you read a few posts you will see those who are consistently posting from another place, and it makes it easier to take every piece of advice in proper consideration. Advice tailored to the situation is sure to mean more than that just handed out to any surface similarities (affair, yup, here's the stock card, thank you come again!)

[NoIDidn't]

Why do OW always assume that a poster is posting because of their "past hurt"?

 

Just what is this past hurt supposed to be?

 

This statement is almost always used against the betrayed or the "reformed" OPs that post here.

 

I personally couldn't care less if someone felt I was posting from a place of hurt, so I'm just curious as to what its supposed to really mean.

[bentnotbroken]

Why do OW always assume that a poster is posting because of their "past hurt"?

 

Just what is this past hurt supposed to be?

 

This statement is almost always used against the betrayed or the "reformed" OPs that post here.

 

I personally couldn't care less if someone felt I was posting from a place of hurt, so I'm just curious as to what its supposed to really mean.

 

:bunny::bunny::bunny:Here! Here! there is another phrase I wish I had a dime for everytime I read it, along with that "bitter" word. Support...hmm....you say tomato, I say tomaaato.

[SummerSnow]

.... those that can't accept both positive and negative support aren't looking for support at all.....

 

I think people should look up what exactly the definition of SUPPORT is.

Only then can we all realise that SUPPORT is totally different from ADVISE or giving one's OPINION.

[MizFit]

Jennie-Jennie had started a thread on welcoming people to the forum...that it's seldom helpful to blast a person on their first post or two because they may well never come back and actually learn from the people who can help them.

 

My opinion and observations here...the new BS on the forum is very sympathetic because they have been the victim of a WS deceit and goodness knows what else. The new OW/OM is not looked at as sympathetic by anyone other than other OW/OM-as a rule. With those dynamics in play the posts to a new BS will reflect that sympathy from all camps initially...the OW/OM may get the sympathy from others and from some of the BS, but as a rule there are a few posters who fly in ready to do battle and save a soul. I will also say I've seen on the Infidelity thread when some of the posters who are so dead set on R that they swoop on anyone who may be exploring that option...that is just as bad. I find it a bit more severe to the new OW however.

 

I think that is when it's painful...it's so hard to see someone who needs the support to stay here be blindsided and know they'll never come back. My thoughts on support...when someone is new, no matter what their story, they should be treated a little more gently so they won't just leave. There quickly comes a time when the different opinions and thoughts are brought to light and the true support begins.

 

I just think it's important to sometimes make the focus on getting them to feel comfortable enough to not leave the place that could help them the most.

 

Just MO...