Support vs Debate/Judgement?

[Just a stone's throw]

Owl, you post with much wisdom and insight and I really respect what you have to say. Whether I choose to act upon it doesn't mean I don't take it to heart and carry it with me. I often think about the things that you've written in response to what I've posted and you never know, some day I may come back and let you know that I was able to do what you said I should do.

 

But it's the way you say it and the intent behind your posts that makes it acceptable or at least less harsh.

 

Not saying I haven't taken other poster's more harsh comments to heart also, because I have.

 

I am hopeful that what BNB said is true, that even those that stop posting still lurk and read what they need to help them. I just think the full benefit is when you can personalize your situation and get personalized feedback in a supportive environment.

 

If I didn't think this site had it's merits, I wouldn't still be here.

 

JAST

 

I can think of a pretty hefty number of "newbies" that came here and didn't like my posts, felt that they were 'harsh' or non-supportive...and then later thanked me for my advice.

 

They didn't like my posts to begin with because THEIR EXPECTATIONS didn't match with what they truly needed to hear.

 

They came wanting validation, but what they needed was support.

 

No one likes hearing that they're wrong...so of course they'll immediately reject advice offhand that makes them feel that way. But often that advice still sinks in...and eventually they recognize that it was truly what they needed to hear, even if it wasn't what they wanted to hear.

[JustJoe]

Pretty good post, Hoot. Yes, support and approval aren't necessarily the same thing. Most OP's WANT approval, but what they need is support and clarification. Personal insults, however, should never happen.

[Owl]

Owl, you post with much wisdom and insight and I really respect what you have to say. Whether I choose to act upon it doesn't mean I don't take it to heart and carry it with me. I often think about the things that you've written in response to what I've posted and you never know, some day I may come back and let you know that I was able to do what you said I should do.

 

I hope that you do. And you know what...even if you don't, I'd like to see you come back, tell me I was wrong, and give me your success story to prove me wrong.

 

I'll still smile to see that things turned out good for you and yours, and gladly accept that I'm not (quite? ) always right.

 

But it's the way you say it and the intent behind your posts that makes it acceptable or at least less harsh.

 

Not saying I haven't taken other poster's more harsh comments to heart also, because I have.

 

I am hopeful that what BNB said is true, that even those that stop posting still lurk and read what they need to help them. I just think the full benefit is when you can personalize your situation and get personalized feedback in a supportive environment.

 

If I didn't think this site had it's merits, I wouldn't still be here.

 

JAST

 

My only intent here has been to help people make the right choices and find the courage to implement them. I think that there are a lot of posters here with the same M.O.

[Owl]

Pretty good post, Hoot. Yes, support and approval aren't necessarily the same thing. Most OP's WANT approval, but what they need is support and clarification. Personal insults, however, should never happen.

 

Totally and completely agreed. If there's one thing that chips my beak, it's when I get infractions for some silly thing, and I see personal insults and attacks ignored.

[pureinheart]

Totally and completely agreed. If there's one thing that chips my beak, it's when I get infractions for some silly thing, and I see personal insults and attacks ignored.

 

This is too funny.....

[Owl]

This is too funny.....

 

What, you didn't realize that I really am a 6' 200lb blue owl in real life?

 

Besides, I couldnt say "chaps my ...", since owls don't actually HAVE a ... to sit on.

 

But the bottom line is that I can agree with the OP that intentional insulting/attacking/cruel posts intended only to hurt do no one any good.

 

The trick is to be able to discern the difference between those and posts like mine, which are often "tough love"...but ARE intended to help.

[silktricks]

People can't teach you from THEIR mistakes though can they? We learn from our own. I think if posters feel they're not being listened to they'll clam up and learn nothing because they'll not log on again.

I would disagree with this. In my opinion, we really can teach only from our own mistakes - or at least best from our own mistakes. We learn best from our own mistakes, but if we've learned something and then cannot ever help anyone else with what we have learned, well - really - what good is it?

 

I've seen posts where the OP is being TOLD how or what her relationship is by other, often wiser posters. I think maybe some people need time or patience to reach conclusions on their own, or need to be helped to see things another way.

 

No one needs to condone or support behaviour they don't agree with. Not suggesting that.

Telling is probably not the best way of teaching IRL, but on a board - really - what other way is there? We all come with our own experiences and attempt to convey what we have learned through those experiences. Some of us are uhhmmmm more expressive when discribing them than one might wish - but in most cases their hearts are (IMO) in the right place. If they get too expressive they'll probably get reprimanded and start to realize that they cannot ride roughshod over others with impunity... or maybe just realize that what one is thinking can come out much harsher than one expects without the benefit of tone of voice and expression (why I like emoticons so much... )

[fooled once]

I think they may not post, but I do think they continue to read. I think there are many who read and never post. I don't know if they will read anything that will make the picture more vivid or at least answer some questions. One of the reasons I do post.

 

Excellent point BNB. I know I was a lurker/reader long before I was a poster.

 

I think some people KNOW how bad/screwed up/unhappy/broken <insert whatever word you want here> and when they post, and people confirm what they already know, they stop posting. They want to believe their affair is different, that the MM they are sleeping with is different, etc. They don't want to hear that many of those are all the same, same song, different verse - lather, rinse, repeat.

[NoIDidn't]

I think every one of us speaks from past everything...hurt, happiness, successes, failures...we speak of what we know and feel. I don't think a BS or a reformed anything lingers in anything any more than the rest of the people in the world.

 

It's like people saying they don't want someone with 'baggage'...sorry Babe, but baggage is what makes us.

 

While I agree with the sentiment expressed in this post, I still call Bullsh*t on the reason that poster in this forum use the "past hurt" line only on those that don't fit their label.

 

They only say it because they are saying "You are still hurting from when you were cheated on" as if a person couldn't have felt the same way without ever being cheated on.

 

Its basically the same as saying "You have never been in my shoes, so you don't know what I am feeling". Another very common fallacy.

[NoIDidn't]

Totally and completely agreed. If there's one thing that chips my beak, it's when I get infractions for some silly thing, and I see personal insults and attacks ignored.

 

Yeah, LS needs some help in this area. The problem is that the MODs only read the one post they were alerted on, not the entire thread to see the context.

 

One should always quote what they are responding to. It might help in the fairness department.

[whichwayisup]

People can't teach you from THEIR mistakes though can they?

Sometimes seeing what one goes through can help someone else on the edge, pull themselves back. Not always, but sometimes. I've seen afew stories on LS where a disaster was prevented because she took the time to go read alot of situations both here and in the infidelity section.

[Fallen Angel]

Yeah, LS needs some help in this area. The problem is that the MODs only read the one post they were alerted on, not the entire thread to see the context.

 

One should always quote what they are responding to. It might help in the fairness department.

 

That is because there are no MODs, only a MOD at the moment. And Tony has his hands full just getting to the things he is alerted to... for free...everyday... Just saying.

 

Good Job, Tony!!! (We luv ya despite what we may say about ya when ya smack our hands and duct tape our mouths. lmao!)

[Fallen Angel]

While I agree with the sentiment expressed in this post' date=' I still call Bullsh*t on the reason that poster [i']in this forum[/i] use the "past hurt" line only on those that don't fit their label.

 

They only say it because they are saying "You are still hurting from when you were cheated on" as if a person couldn't have felt the same way without ever being cheated on.

 

Its basically the same as saying "You have never been in my shoes, so you don't know what I am feeling". Another very common fallacy.

 

You may be able to feel sympathy, even empathy for what someone else is going through. But if you have never experienced it first hand, all you can do is guess at the emotional impact.

 

For example, if you have never been beaten by a spouse you loved, you may be able to feel for someone who has, but you will never truly understand how that person can stay with and still love the spouse that beats them.

 

If you have never held your child as she took her last breath, you may be able to understand that the parent feels grief, but you will never understand what it feels like to have your soul torn in two.

[MizFit]

Ugh. I get so sick of this debate. I haven't even been here that long, and have had my fill of it. All those OW's whining and crying because other people won't "support" them while they are banging a married man.

 

Seriously?

 

Either I am getting old and set in my ways, or my time here is about done.

 

Is there anyone here who is saying that the discussion isn't needed? Is there anyone here saying that the truth and all sides of it shouldn't be brought up? No...all most of us seem to be saying is give them time to dip their toes and then when they're a little settled go for the kill. Many times it isn't what is said, but how it is said.

 

Everyone says that OW/OM are weak and lack self respect and have no esteem and are looking for this, that and the other thing. That is absolutely correct some of the times...if that is the case why do we take someone we may be able to help and jump down their throats and possibly make worse the things we're trying to help them get through?

 

No one has to agree with what someone is doing...I just think if we meet them at the door with muffins rather than a shotgun we'll be more likely to be able to sit down and listen and truly communicate with them.

 

Keep in mind my thoughts on this are for OW/OM and also for folks coming in who have just discovered infidelities and are hit with posters saying 'once a cheat always a cheat', 'divorce them you can never trust them'...I think it's probably a bit more in your face to the OW/OM because their situation is perceived as one to be less sympathetic to, but they both can get hostile greetings.

 

By the way...don't go. I love your posts!

[Ms. Red]

Since I don't use side piece or table scraps to describe anyone that wouldn't be me. Yes I do use the term cake eater to describe a person who is married yet cheats.

 

I didn't post that to say that you use those terms Bent. I was just adding to your post of words you get tired of hearing. Sorry if you thought that Bent.

 

I wouldn't name specific posters that do that actually. I just get tired of seeing a new poster with a short post opening a thread and then those terms thrown out there like clock work to the new member.

 

As stated before, let them introduce themselves and take a seat and have a muffin before the predictable posters go in for the kill with their cookie cutter responses!

 

I am regularly referred to as bitter, stuck in the past, angry or in pain. I am none of those things, but I am convicted. I and my faith are one. It is part of who I am and I speak from that faith. Whether one is a believer or not. Since most people who have affairs post about their insights and feelings about the affair without it mattering whether others believe in affair or not.[/Quote]

 

I don't see you as the above (negative) adjectives. I see you as having experienced a huge betrayal and giving your personal insight on the matter.

 

As far as your faith, you represent that well. Not always perfectly, but what human does. I sure could do better but lack in faith due to hypocrisy I've seen growing up as a preacher's daughter.

[bentnotbroken]

I didn't post that to say that you use those terms Bent. I was just adding to your post of words you get tired of hearing. Sorry if you thought that Bent.

 

I wouldn't name specific posters that do that actually. I just get tired of seeing a new poster with a short post opening a thread and then those terms thrown out there like clock work to the new member.

 

As stated before, let them introduce themselves and take a seat and have a muffin before the predictable posters go in for the kill with their cookie cutter responses!

 

 

 

I don't see you as the above (negative) adjectives. I see you as having experienced a huge betrayal and giving your personal insight on the matter.

 

As far as your faith, you represent that well. Not always perfectly, but what human does. I sure could do better but lack in faith due to hypocrisy I've seen growing up as a preacher's daughter.

 

 

I understand. Thank you for the explanation:) and as long as I am breathing, there won't be perfection:p. Just a continueous improvement on the previous addition:laugh:.

[Mombot]

Silly its a public forum and that means that everyone has the right to put their 2 cents in. Certain threads have a certain bent to them and you know that up front. Other time people ask for advice and get reactions that they may or may not expect (good and bad). As you read the posts you also get a feel for the point of view of different posters.

 

This is not the most supportive forum for people who are in affairs who want to stay there that is certainly true. The people in those situations tend to be quite strong in their positions and post anyway. There are other forums on other sites which are more welcoming to people who are looking for support for, as an example, waiting out the WS until he leaves the W.

 

WEhich sites are those and how are they more receptive to OM?OW?

[Fallen Angel]

WEhich sites are those and how are they more receptive to OM?OW?

 

There are many websites that are specifically aimed at "the Other Woman" where all affairs are cheered and no BWs or rOW are allowed to post.

 

Women are encouraged to stay in affairs that are unfulfilling, that border on abusive etc. just because to do otherwise would be admitting to the fact that most affairs are damaging to the OW soul.

 

the truth is, most affairs are damaging to the OW soul.

 

Not all, but most.

 

If all you want to hear is cheer-leading to stay in your affair, then Google "other woman" you will find the sites you seek. but if you are interested in hearing the truth, even when it is not what you want to hear, and you are interested in people who will come to really will come to care about you and have your best interests at heart then you are already in the right place.

 

(even though we are a dysfunctional bunch who often need to have our hands slapped for not playing nice we are a family here, and for the most part the disagreement does not diminish the affection.)

[NoIDidn't]

There are many websites that are specifically aimed at "the Other Woman" where all affairs are cheered and no BWs or rOW are allowed to post.

 

Women are encouraged to stay in affairs that are unfulfilling, that border on abusive etc. just because to do otherwise would be admitting to the fact that most affairs are damaging to the OW soul.

 

the truth is, most affairs are damaging to the OW soul.

 

Not all, but most.

 

If all you want to hear is cheer-leading to stay in your affair, then Google "other woman" you will find the sites you seek. but if you are interested in hearing the truth, even when it is not what you want to hear, and you are interested in people who will come to really will come to care about you and have your best interests at heart then you are already in the right place.

 

(even though we are a dysfunctional bunch who often need to have our hands slapped for not playing nice we are a family here, and for the most part the disagreement does not diminish the affection.)

 

Totally agree!

 

You will always know those that don't care. They often "hit-and-run" post.

[Dexter Morgan]

WEhich sites are those and how are they more receptive to OM?OW?

 

try gloryb.com

 

they coddle people who sleep with other peoples' spouses and actually revell in their victory over the BS

[torranceshipman]

 

I disagree with many things that are posted as a knee-jerk reaction one-size-fits-all, but to name a few:

 

2. Saying things like "he/she doesnt love you, only uses you, will never ever leave their spouse" etc., as if the poster is someone with special powers to know the future.

 

3. Saying that if the MM/MW really loved the OW/OM they would "move mountains" etc, leave the spouse, get divorced and all that...

 

End of rant.

 

I think that this post actually explains a lot of the disagreements. For people who aren't an OW they look at the facts of a situation, they'd say well, in point 2, he doesn't really love you, else he'd have left his W, and wouldn't be repeatedly hurting you - real love and respect doesn't hurt like the OW usually hurts. To be fair you can see the logic in that.

 

And to point 3, if someone loves you, then by definition, they WILL move mountains. Period. That is what love is. Obviously an MM doesn't do that.

 

The OW then has the explanation that 'you can't see the future' and that is true, and so is the fact that we can't see inside an A to understand all of the facts. But you can use common sense, and also see the facts in front of your face. If an MM says he loves you but repeatedly goes back home to see his W who he lives with, and keeps you a secret, then we have enough facts to know that the above comments apply to your situation.

 

An OW is way too subjective and some posters, myself included, get so frustrated seeing how delusional OW can get, ignoring the facts that are shouting in their face! I hate seeing women waste their life on losers. I know there are occasional outliers and some MM do leave but it means putting up with quite a bit of disrespect in the meantime while you wait for him to make up his mind.

 

You are right though that there are really nasty posters on here - not good. But I am all for the harsh advice as harsh can come from a good place and really open someone's eyes even if they don't enjoy hearing it.

Edited July 2, 2010 by torranceshipman

[samsungxoxo]

I just post my replies depending who is the story teller. It seems some posters find it harder to focus on the person's story and instead vent out as if the BS were to write theirs. It's not them writing, it's either the OM/OW or WS.... listen to them.

[Dexter Morgan]

and some posters put themselves in the place of the person that is being betrayed. I do it all the time.

 

you would think its good to find out what might be going on in the mind of a BS, betrayed SO, whatever.

 

And that leads people to not like what they are hearing. They don't want to believe that the person they are betraying has negative thoughts about them, or that they are angry, or that they may never trust them again.

 

so question is, if someone isn't interested in all the different possible mindsets of the person they are hurting, then why do they bother staying with them? If one isn't interested in the feelings and thoughts of the person they are betraying, then it shows the level of disrespect for them.

[samsungxoxo]

and some posters put themselves in the place of the person that is being betrayed. I do it all the time.

 

you would think its good to find out what might be going on in the mind of a BS, betrayed SO, whatever.

Would you still do it if the BS was not only a neglecting husband/wife but abusive too?

Who would then be too blame more here? The WS (who at the same time is trying to get out too) or the abusive BS?

[Dexter Morgan]

Would you still do it if the BS was not only a neglecting husband/wife but abusive too?

 

neglecting is a matter of opinion, and it wouldn't change my stance.

 

i never got my needs met in my marriage, still wouldn't see me going out and boning other women.

 

as far as abuse, why cheat? especially in the form of physical abuse. why risk getting beat to death if caught cheating? I never understood that.

 

but cheating is cheating. while cheating on someone that is abusive doesn't make it right, I could at least sympathize with their plight.

 

 

Who would then be too blame more here? The WS (who at the same time is trying to get out too) or the abusive BS?

 

the abusive BS is responsible for pushing away the WS and bears more burden in the failures in their marriage.

 

The WS is responsible for their stupid choice to cheat.