Scrivdog Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 At the tender age of 18 AND 19, I used to spend my summers working as a bartender in a dive bar in the tropics. My shift lasted until 6 am. After 3 am, all the other bars closed including a few gay bars. So I got to know alot of these gay guys well enough to ask them personal questions, including "Why did you turn gay?" The answer was always, and with no hesitation a variation of : "I was always gay even since I was a child". After this and many other conversations with them, I became convinced beyond any doubt that genetic or not - being gay wasn't some choice they made. They were just born that way. When you stop and think about it .. why the hell would anyone choose to be gay if they were straight? It's absurd. There's absolutely no benefit to it - in fact it's downright repulsive to a straight person and until very recently was a the fast track to disownment and ostracism. Gluttons, drunks, and wife beaters, on the other hand - all chose to be that way. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 So I got to know alot of these gay guys well enough to ask them personal questions, including "Why did you turn gay?" The answer was always, and with no hesitation a variation of : "I was always gay even since I was a child". After this and many other conversations with them, I became convinced beyond any doubt that genetic or not - being gay wasn't some choice they made. They were just born that way. When you stop and think about it .. why the hell would anyone choose to be gay if they were straight? I don't want to derail the thread, because truthfully, this is about what the OP's wife feels. But....I too have been close enough to a number of gays/lesbians. I have read many stories of gays/lesbians. And I cannot reach the same conclusion. There are many factors that are at play....including many (and even most) have had some sexual experience forced upon them from someone of the same sex. Many also have a poor to non-existent relationship with the parent of the same sex. Many have had an abusive relationship with the parent of the opposite sex. My cousins? The lesbian had a poor relationship with her father, and the gay cousin? His mother ruled (and rules) his life. Does that mean everyone in the same situations reacts the same way? No. Does that mean that these are possible reason? Possibly. Should we treat someone less than human because of this? NO. As for someone thinking that this is how they always have been....many of us can think of behaviors/disorders/etc. that we have today as adults, and when we think back, we truly do not know when we first had them. Yet in many cases, we were NOT born with them. We simply acquired them as a young child. So this does not mean we were born with them. As for why would someone choose to be gay....this is a moot point. No one chooses many aspects of life, yet they happen. No one necessarily chooses to be depressed. Yet many are. No one chooses to be mental illnesses or physical illnesses. Yet many are afflicted. Point is...just because someone chooses or doesn't choose something does not necessarily make it something they are born with. The point here is that the wife's opinion is hers. Personally, I would decide differently than she. Link to post Share on other sites
xxoo Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 I fail to understand how your personal distinction alters the purpose of my analogy You say it is all about the celebrating the homosexual relationship, but it isn't. It is all about celebrating love and family, and the genders are incidental (as is the sexuality of the hair stylist). I don't go to straight weddings thinking it is all about celebrating heterosexuality. Link to post Share on other sites
bayouboi Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 You say it is all about the celebrating the homosexual relationship, but it isn't. It is all about celebrating love and family, and the genders are incidental (as is the sexuality of the hair stylist). I don't go to straight weddings thinking it is all about celebrating heterosexuality. I read what you said. My response was that I didn't understand how your distinction altered the PURPOSE of my analogy. Here is the part that you bolded: "the union ceremony is all about the homosexual relationship & its celebration, whereas in your comparisons the exhibitions just so happen to have homosexuals involved in the productions." The purpose of what I said was that there was a big difference between a gay wedding versus an art exhibit produced by a gay person UNLESS the art exhibit depicted gay things. But even though you nor donnamaybe understood that, at least you got one donnamaybe point! Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 the point of a wedding is to celebrate the couples love or each other.and the fact that they are joining their lives together and their families together. Pledging to love each other for the rest of their lives. It is immaterial whether the people are straight or gay. Link to post Share on other sites
califnan Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 the point of a wedding is to celebrate the couples love or each other.and the fact that they are joining their lives together and their families together. Pledging to love each other for the rest of their lives. It is immaterial whether the people are straight or gay. ----------------------- Not to many of the STATES .. Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 ----------------------- Not to many of the STATES .. well that is just because people use scripture and "family values" to take away the rights of American Citizens Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 well that is just because people use scripture and "family values" to take away the rights of American Citizens Incorrect. The legal system "takes away" the rights. Actually, the rights were never had. Legally, the answer is very simple. Give the individuals who make a contract via the civil ceremony the same legal rights as are given to individuals who make a contract via the marriage ceremony. Problem solved. Blurring the definition of marriage to include what which is not defined by marriage does not solve the problem. If legal rights are wanted, then granting them solves the problem. Getting into what the Bible says is not relevant as (1) many people do not believe in what it says anyhow and (2) our laws are not determined by what the Bible says. (But yes, I think the Bible is pretty clear on its view of homosexuality). This is why we have an issue with the OP and his wife. Does attending the civil ceremony constitute a condoning of the ceremony or does it show support of the relative? While I see why someone would say it condones the homosexual ceremony, I cannot fully agree. Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted June 23, 2010 Share Posted June 23, 2010 Incorrect. The legal system "takes away" the rights. Actually, the rights were never had. Legally, the answer is very simple. Give the individuals who make a contract via the civil ceremony the same legal rights as are given to individuals who make a contract via the marriage ceremony. Problem solved. Blurring the definition of marriage to include what which is not defined by marriage does not solve the problem. If legal rights are wanted, then granting them solves the problem. Getting into what the Bible says is not relevant as (1) many people do not believe in what it says anyhow and (2) our laws are not determined by what the Bible says. (But yes, I think the Bible is pretty clear on its view of homosexuality). This is why we have an issue with the OP and his wife. Does attending the civil ceremony constitute a condoning of the ceremony or does it show support of the relative? While I see why someone would say it condones the homosexual ceremony, I cannot fully agree. deny would have been a more apt word to use. Personally I think we should just use marriage. I live in a state were gay marriage is allowed and it is fine. Nothing terrible has happened. You can get married by the state and some churches can refuse to marry a gay couples based on their views. Some churches here marry gay people to. I think he should go by himself if she is so opposed to it. But I can see how it can create conflicts esp. if he has a tight knit family. It would be percieved as a snub. And how would she act around the new couple. Would they be uncomfortable around her considering her views etc.. The OP didn't mention how close he is to this relative. I think that would make a huge difference. Link to post Share on other sites
Author fit Posted June 23, 2010 Author Share Posted June 23, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. Link to post Share on other sites
califnan Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. ---------------------- aTTa .. BOY .. !! (did our posts help?) ... :bunny: Link to post Share on other sites
Corporate Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. Were you invited to the bachelor party? Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 So heres the deal guys...I have a relative who is gay. They are having a "civil union" ceremony. My whole family is going---despite whatever feeling they may or may not have on the whole gay thing. My wife is a born again christian and she refuses to go. I tried talking to her but she just "doesnt believe in it" ---this is going to cause a lot of tension between her and my family. What do you guys think ? I think she should go as it doesnt mean she is a gay supporter or anything---it just means shes supporting the family. Thoughts ? Her refusal to attend won't have any effect beyond exposing her as an ignorant bigot. If that is the image she wants to project, fine. Go without her. Where do you get bigotry here? Because she doesn't agree with gay M...not bigotry, just her belief...last I heard this was a free country, if in fact this poster is a US citizen. Link to post Share on other sites
pureinheart Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. LOL, I just read the first page as there were way too many posts...Your a cool guy, and glad you stuck up for your W. I have inlaws, they are like blood though, that are bi and it doesn't affect how I feel about them, I seriously doubt I would attend the wedding, if there was one...and the family would not see me as a traitor, nor would they find anything wrong with me not attending due to my faith...I do/don't do various things according to my faith. FTR the inlaws are my daughters actually...the family is like family to me. Link to post Share on other sites
NoIDidn't Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. I'm glad you are going alone, and allowing her to take her own counsel in this. I'm sorry this thread became people calling your W such vile names. I have two lesbian friends that just got married last year. I did not attend their wedding. I didn't want to be a part of the ceremony, while I have always supported them being together. I just am too conflicted on the whole "gay marriage" thing. I bought them a gift, as well. I've known both for years, even though they just found each other two years ago. They understood my not going, as both have dealt with their own religious conflicts over being gay and wanting to be married to each other. I don't love them any less. I just couldn't go to their ceremony. Not ready for that kind of statement. And it IS a statement. Link to post Share on other sites
taiko Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 I'm glad you are going alone, and allowing her to take her own counsel in this. I'm sorry this thread became people calling your W such vile names. I have two lesbian friends that just got married last year. I did not attend their wedding. I didn't want to be a part of the ceremony, while I have always supported them being together. I just am too conflicted on the whole "gay marriage" thing. I bought them a gift, as well. I've known both for years, even though they just found each other two years ago. They understood my not going, as both have dealt with their own religious conflicts over being gay and wanting to be married to each other. I don't love them any less. I just couldn't go to their ceremony. Not ready for that kind of statement. And it IS a statement. That is because a political interest group jumped into this family situation to continue their fight. I just came off of a Catholic board were the devout advise not going to a wedding ceremony because one of the parties was baptized as a Catholic and did not get permission from the local Bishop to have a ceremony outside of the church walls. Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Where do you get bigotry here? Because she doesn't agree with gay M...not bigotry, just her belief...last I heard this was a free country, if in fact this poster is a US citizen. Unless you are gay and want to get married. Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Unless you are gay and want to get married. Since marriage is defined as a contract between a man and a woman, then why would a gay person want to get married? See...this is where I have the problem. Gay people should be pushing for their own ceremony such as a civil union (or another name). Marriage is between a man and a woman and how does it change life for the gays if they are "married?" besides legally? Does marriage make a gay union more acceptable? Solution. A legal union that allows gay people the same benefits as a married couple is needed. I guarantee that if the civil union (maybe given another name) were pushed for legalization, there would be much less controversy. And there are many freedoms that are not had by citizens. The fact that there is a government that takes my money and uses it for whatever it sees fit indicates that I do not have as much freedom as I think I do. Using the "You are denying me my rights" argument avoids the question..."WHY should it be a right?" Religion is junk and religious people buy this just hook line sinker. Spoken by someone who is a fan of the Boston Red Sox. I guess that says it all. Link to post Share on other sites
hotgurl Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Since marriage is defined as a contract between a man and a woman, then why would a gay person want to get married? See...this is where I have the problem. Gay people should be pushing for their own ceremony such as a civil union (or another name). Marriage is between a man and a woman and how does it change life for the gays if they are "married?" besides legally? Does marriage make a gay union more acceptable? Solution. A legal union that allows gay people the same benefits as a married couple is needed. I guarantee that if the civil union (maybe given another name) were pushed for legalization, there would be much less controversy. And there are many freedoms that are not had by citizens. The fact that there is a government that takes my money and uses it for whatever it sees fit indicates that I do not have as much freedom as I think I do. Using the "You are denying me my rights" argument avoids the question..."WHY should it be a right?" Spoken by someone who is a fan of the Boston Red Sox. I guess that says it all. so why is it a right for straight people to get married? How woudl it change straight people's lives it gay people could get married. Civil unions are the whole equal but different. what is BS Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 so why is it a right for straight people to get married? It is not a right. It is a legal option available to a man and a woman who wants to start a family. Many people consider it a privilege (while others consider it a curse. ) How woudl it change straight people's lives it gay people could get married. Didn't say it would. But the definition of marriage is a man and a woman. To keep things clear, a different contract and legal definition can be used for the union of individuals of the same sex. Why would that change the commitment of gay couples if a different term were used? It would not. Civil unions are the whole equal but different. Exactly my point. A civil union could give all the same legal benefits and still be used to define a commitment between a couple of individuals of the same sex. The difference would only be in who can get a civil union. what is BS Not sure where that acronym was used, but since you are asking, it is usually used for a number of words including betrayed spouse. Am puzzled how that applies here. Link to post Share on other sites
califnan Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Unless you are gay and want to get married. ----------------------- God's (our creator) plan is pretty basic and simple.. Marriage to be between a man and a woman .. We are here to reproduce and to try to contribute - or to help make it a better world.. I would think that should those who do not wish to marry as man and a woman - they should stay single.. Otherwise it just causes confustion. Link to post Share on other sites
DaisyLeigh Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 Her refusal to attend won't have any effect beyond exposing her as an ignorant bigot. If that is the image she wants to project, fine. Go without her. Wait one minute. Just because someone doesn't agree with, or understand the gay lifestyle doesn't mean that they are a bigot or ignorant. I myself do not understand how someone can be attracted to a person of the same sex. However, I do not belittle those who are gay. My uncle is gay and he is well aware of my thoughts on the subject. He doesn't think that I am a bigot or ignorant. We love each other dearly. Some people don't like religious folks and are quite vocal about it. Does that mean that they, the ones who don't like religious folks, are ignorant or bigots too? I mean, it IS a two-way street here. As long as you treat others with respect, that is what matters. Not going to that ceremony does not mean that the lady would belittle the couple or that she hates THEM. You can disagree with the way a person is or how they live and still be respectful. Link to post Share on other sites
DaisyLeigh Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 While I don't agree with her view at all, I think your wife has every right to be absent. I have not gone to any of my nieces/nephews christenings for the same reason - I'm an atheist and I won't want the impressionable kids to think I support the cult their parents are into. Notice how no one calls you a bigot or ignorant because you don't believe in God. Interesting. (and I am not picking at you, just making a point) Link to post Share on other sites
Corporate Posted June 24, 2010 Share Posted June 24, 2010 OK heres my update folks. I am going to the wedding by myself. I tried to read all the replies but its just wayyyy too many...lol My wife is not a bigot--she follows the bible and is electing not to celebrate a gay marriage which is against her beliefs. She gets along fine with my gay relative--she just chooses not to celebrate their marriage. I am living with this....Ill get over it. I wish she would attend but I cant and wont make her. I am not super close with this relative for the record but my family will view it as a snub but they will have to deal. My wife is a good, loving woman--but I just dont agree with this particular decision. We will move past it. My life is with her, not with my family. Are you offended that you were not invited to the bachelor party? Link to post Share on other sites
JamesM Posted June 25, 2010 Share Posted June 25, 2010 Notice how no one calls you a bigot or ignorant because you don't believe in God. Interesting. (and I am not picking at you, just making a point) Actually the correct term if we follow the terminology used is either a Godophobe or a religiophobe. Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts